79p an hour wage

Consistency · Apr 17, 2012

If this was an employee it would never be acceptable, there would be holiday pay to factor in and the pension thing as well,

yet I know of a pub landlord who is scraping by and says he works many hours and only gets 79p an hour when he does all the maths.

There are many employees out there who truly think that on £6 odd an hour they are on the poverty line and doing slave labour but the truth is there are many business owners out there who are suffering severe financial hardship.

When we hear on the news about financial hardship we hear it from employees, we hear it from public sector workers but never the business owners in this position.

I heard a public sector worker on the news the other day in relation to striking and said "We are expected to be paid less and work longer hours - it doesn't make sense and it's not on". I thought welcome to the world we live in and you still have it easy. Pee taking cow.

Apr 17, 2012

Consistency said:
If this was an employee it would never be acceptable, there would be holiday pay to factor in and the pension thing as well,

yet I know of a pub landlord who is scraping by and says he works many hours and only gets 79p an hour when he does all the maths.

There are many employees out there who truly think that on £6 odd an hour they are on the poverty line and doing slave labour but the truth is there are many business owners out there who are suffering severe financial hardship.

Well surely the answer is that they go get a proper job and give up on there hobby.

I mean people are always telling the unemployed to go get a job.

Earl

MASSEY · Apr 17, 2012

Consistency · Apr 17, 2012

It is a blooming case of violins, this is a man trying to earn a living and he has had to get another job as well, three days working as a lorry driver.

He has a lot against him, paying £40 more per barrel than if he got it direct from the brewery, £3,000 a month rent, £18,000 a year business rates, I for one have some sympathy.

And yet people walk into a pub and probably see the prices and shout rip off without understanding the costs behind them. I don't know what his prices are as I don't go in pubs but he is a bloke who is trying to make his way in the world like we all are.

Consistency · Apr 17, 2012

sirearl said:
Well what do you suggest they do?:|

Earl

I haven't a clue but it is a reality that is very very rarely presented and business owners are being bled dryer and dryer.

matt seymour · Apr 17, 2012

Consistency said:
It is a blooming case of violins, this is a man trying to earn a living and he has had to get another job as well, three days working as a lorry driver.

He has a lot against him, paying £40 more per barrel than if he got it direct from the brewery, £3,000 a month rent, £18,000 a year business rates, I for one have some sympathy.

And yet people walk into a pub and probably see the prices and shout rip off without understanding the costs behind them. I don't know what his prices are as I don't go in pubs but he is a bloke who is trying to make his way in the world like we all are.

If this is true, it probably goes some way towards explaining why so many pubs are closing. They're dropping like flies where I live.

businessfunding · Apr 17, 2012

Consistency said:
It is a blooming case of violins, this is a man trying to earn a living and he has had to get another job as well, three days working as a lorry driver.

He has a lot against him, paying £40 more per barrel than if he got it direct from the brewery, £3,000 a month rent, £18,000 a year business rates, I for one have some sympathy.

And yet people walk into a pub and probably see the prices and shout rip off without understanding the costs behind them. I don't know what his prices are as I don't go in pubs but he is a bloke who is trying to make his way in the world like we all are.

He is a man who has negotiated himself into a bad deal and went into a business which he idn't understand.

Whilst I have a egree of empathy for the view that it seems a bit unfair that you can malinger in bigco, take a few months off with stress an retire early on a final salary pension, it isa choice that youmake.. Any one of us coul have a job in the local council, but we made a lifestyle choice.

C'est la vie

Consistency · Apr 17, 2012

He is leaving the business apparantly and has had enough. I will look for the story.

Cobby · Apr 17, 2012

sirearl said:
Well what do you suggest they do?:|

Earl

Many can do nothing but slog on or risk losing everything they have. Some business owners cannot afford to simply close up and 'go get a job' - maybe you're smart enough to know that, maybe not, but that's how the story goes.

Consistency · Apr 17, 2012

Pub landlord drives lorry just to survive

Monday, April 16, 2012

Gloucestershire Echo
Follow
PUB landdlord Danny Lewis only earns about 79p an hour working behind his bar.
Now he is preparing to pull his last pint after rents, rates and supermarket beer prices have forced him to pack in the trade.



LEAVING: Danny Lewis

The 55-year-old has been running the Hop Pole Inn in Gloucester Road for seven-and-a-half years.
But since business has nose- dived, Mr Lewis has been forced to work three days a week as a lorry driver to survive.
He said Enterprise Inns, which own his pub, has done nothing to keep him in business.
Mr Lewis said: "We pay £3,000 a month in rent to Enterprise. We also pay £40 more per barrel of beer than we would if we got it direct from the brewery."
Enterprise Inns spokesman Vicky Averis said: "Enterprise Inns do not comment on the private and confidential matters which may arise between the company and it's publicans."
He takes £50 a week spending money for himself from the pub and when he worked out the hours he does, it amounts to 79p an hour.
Mr Lewis said the first five years of running the Hop Pole were good, but supermarkets have provided landlords with increasingly stiff competition, he said.
"Tesco is right opposite me and I went in there this week, it was selling 20 bottles of Budweiser for £17.50. I can't even buy it in for that," he said.
The pub also comes with an £18,000 a year business rate fee.
He tried to sell the lease so he would not lose his investment, but because the premises need rewiring, he could not.
"Enterprise would not do the work and said I would have to. It would cost me about £20,000 to rewire it all and I don't think it is my responsibility. I do repairs, but this is replacing the whole system," he said.
"They need to be more flexible and give us an incentive to stay here."
Since he has been in charge, he has spent £18,000 doing the premises up, including new fire doors, re-painting, installing a smoking area and new sash windows.
The Hop Pole's story highlights some of the problems facing licensees in Cheltenham. The Echo has launched Save Our Pubs in a bid to raise awareness of their plight and save our drinking holes.
We have reported on landlords across the Cheltenham area who say unfair business rates and huge pub companies, combined with a drop in trade, has destroyed the industry.
Dozens of Cheltenham pubs have been lost over the last 35 years, including old favourites like Calcutta Inn and Dobells.

Consistency · Apr 17, 2012

The above is copied and pasted form the paper.

Cobby · Apr 17, 2012

Consistency said:
He takes £50 a week spending money for himself from the pub and when he worked out the hours he does, it amounts to 79p an hour.

This isn't really a fair way to represent his take since he isn't paying rent or utilities that ordinary folk have to pay. It is a shoddy situation though and pubcos are the absolute worst, it still amazes me that people are stupid enough to sign up with them.

Consistency · Apr 17, 2012

Cobby said:
This isn't really a fair way to represent his take since he isn't paying rent or utilities that ordinary folk have to pay. It is a shoddy situation though and pubcos are the absolute f**king worst, it still amazes me that people are stupid enough to sign up with them.

Not sure what he spends his £50 on but he still has to clothe himself and shower etc. It is less than what someone gets on benefits who do not have to work or pay rent etc, though they pay utilities.

It is a terrible situation and they are being truly strangled.

Apr 17, 2012

Cobby said:
Many can do nothing but slog on or risk losing everything they have. Some business owners cannot afford to simply close up and 'go get a job' - maybe you're smart enough to know that, maybe not, but that's how the story goes.

Well having closed 2 retail units in the last 2 years I may be savvy enough to know when to call it a day.

As said getting tied into a deal like that is madness.IMHO

And what did he do with the cash during the good years?

Earl

MrCloser · Apr 17, 2012

The hidden agenda being that a lot of these pub chains are more interested in running the pubs down and selling the empty property.
The value of the properties far outweight their low rents.

Our local pub, now demolished, was advertised for sale for several months by a well known pub chain before the landlady stumbled upon it on an internet search. They gave her a decent payment to end her contract early and had the pub boarded up within weeks. within a year it had been demolished and planning permission granted for a new build nhs health centre.

Consistency · Apr 17, 2012

Is £30,000 a month a low rent?

Not being cocky or anything, I am not in that trade so what rent would be considered reasonable for a pub landlord?

businessfunding · Apr 18, 2012

I on't thin anyone is about to paint Enterprise, Punch et al as saint or white knights; they are publicly quoted property comanies and are answerable to shareholders.

If the big money is in getting de-licenced and selling that is what will they do; meanwhile if they have a queue if idiots who will sign whatever is put in front of them to fulfill their ill-considered dream of running a pub, then I'm afraid they will take the money.

If the Echo really want to save pubs there are far more productive ways of doing it than this.

Consistency · Apr 18, 2012

Considering this is a business forum, I am surprised at the "serves him right stupid fool" attitude.

If he was 12, he would be being called an entrepeneur and patted on the back for having a go.

Consistency · Apr 18, 2012

He is in a rut from what I can gather. He got into it and whether he should have done that or not who can ever tell, business is all about taking a gamble, some things pay off some things cost dearly.

He has tried to sell the lease but even though he pays £30,000 per month in rent, they are still saying the rewiring is his responsibility. There are many businesses in a rut in all areas.

Consistency · Apr 18, 2012

this and that said:
No he wouldn't he would be being called an immature idiot.

He would by you and I but there was a young girl of about 11 selling eggs, going from door to door. She was given free publicity on the news, showing her going down the streets in her quaint village with her basket and selling eggs to the locals.

There is a difference of age. Going into the pub trade is not something I would do but uf every landlord is an idiot then the pub trade is truly at deaths door.

Cobby · Apr 18, 2012

sirearl said:
Well having closed 2 retail units in the last 2 years I may be savvy enough to know when to call it a day.

As said getting tied into a deal like that is madness.IMHO

And what did he do with the cash during the good years?

Earl

Congratulations on being in a position to walk away from your investments, I guess? Not everybody can.

Cobby · Apr 18, 2012

Consistency said:
He is in a rut from what I can gather. He got into it and whether he should have done that or not who can ever tell, business is all about taking a gamble, some things pay off some things cost dearly.

He has tried to sell the lease but even though he pays £30,000 per month in rent, they are still saying the rewiring is his responsibility. There are many businesses in a rut in all areas.

Either it's in the lease that it's their responsibility or it isn't. It's a crummy position for him to be in but he put himself in it.

Consistency · Apr 18, 2012

Have not seen his contract and so can't judge too much but it could be said of many failed businesses, "it is there own fault, stupid so and so". I think it is tragic. An employee of seven and half years would walk away with a redundancy package, he with nothing.

I am not convinced he is stupid, I think he tried. There are many who try and over the last few years things have got tighter and tighter and tighter.

Matt1959 · Apr 18, 2012

lets not fret too much for business owners. So they "appear" to draw pence per hour but there are lots of hidden advantages which many people dont see. For example, how many are drawing money tax free (cash). Plus, when receiving child benefits ie CTC, its means tested on net profit and we all know how that can be manipulated as opposed to the paye who is means tested on his gross earnings. Then theres university fees for the kids again means tested or at least used to be. Then theres tax advantages and of course the main one being wifey "works for the business" and "gets paid" £4K a year or whatever (more tax free cash) and dont anyone say this isnt a fiddle for many! then theres putting vehicles against tax, computers, printers, cameras you mame it it gets put against tax and all this adds up and consists of expenditure that for the paye comes out of their net pay.

And no I have no sympathy toward these people who pop up in the newpsaper saying their earning 79p per hour as often its plainly not true when you dig deeper. Some people are just not suited to running a business and see it as a right to earn money...

Consistency · Apr 18, 2012

Cobby said:
Either it's in the lease that it's their responsibility or it isn't. It's a crummy position for him to be in but he put himself in it.

Don't we all! A homeless druggie puts himself in that position but people pour money on them and yet this man is trying to earn an honest living. It can go wrong for anyone of us. As said we cannot judge on his contract as we have not seen it.

Matt1959 · Apr 18, 2012

Consistency said:
I think he tried. There are many who try

trying hard isnt enough though is it:|

Cobby · Apr 18, 2012

Consistency said:
Have not seen his contract and so can't judge too much but it could be said of many failed businesses,

It's not his fault the pub trade has taken a dive. It is his fault he is tied into his position and has to watch his business go down with the pub trade.

Cobby · Apr 18, 2012

Consistency said:
Don't we all! A homeless druggie puts himself in that position but people pour money on them and yet this man is trying to earn an honest living. It can go wrong for anyone of us. As said we cannot judge on his contract as we have not seen it.

a) that's a stupid comparison
b) you can infer from the facts in the story that he is stuck under the pubco's thumb by the lease, otherwise he'd just leave, so it's a lease he entered into and has only himself to blame for any restrictive terms.

Consistency · Apr 18, 2012

Matt1959 said:
trying hard isnt enough though is it:|

We can all give our best and sometimes no, that is not good enough. Sometimes people do not do their best and get a business land on their plate, silver spoon and all that.

It is sometimes a lesson in business, that trying cannot always make things happen.

Another example is companies set up who do cigarrette vending machines. Oh yes, idiots,in the event of vending machines being illegal they got themselves into it, should have known that years down the line government would say no! They will be out of business and will either have to go into something new or close. They cannot continue doing what they used to do.

Consistency · Apr 18, 2012

Cobby said:
a) that's a stupid comparison
b) you can infer from the facts in the story that he is stuck under the pubco's thumb by the lease, otherwise he'd just leave, so it's a lease he entered into and has only himself to blame for any restrictive terms.

I don't think the comparison of responsibility is stupid at all. I have a lot more sympathy with the Landlord.

megamuel · Apr 18, 2012

I'm with you on this one consistency. I work in a 'Punch' pub and the landlord there is in a similar position. He's having to cut down on staff and put more hours in himself. Doing 60+ hours per week and taking less than £150 per week so much much less than minimum wage. Business has been quiet and Punch have just put the beer up 15p per pint (together with a 5p tax increase) to really kill things.

As for the other poster talking about "hidden advantages". Maybe that happens in some cases but I don't think so with my boss. I don't think he's the type to "draw cash" without paying tax and if he had, he has nothing to show for it! As for the other advantages you mentioned - he has no wife or kids so they are out of the question. Neither does he have the other possessions you talk of with regards to putting them against tax, or the possessions he does have would hardly be worth it.

I really don't think the likes of Punch should be allowed to do what they do. They are supposed to be a pub management company. What exactly are they managing? The don't have anything to do with the pub where I work other than trying to extract as much money as possible. They negotiate good rates for the beer they buy but they don't pass that on to the Landlords/Landladies, instead they charge them double what they would pay for it if they were freehold! And like somebody else said, I don't think they are really bothered if the pub fails, if it does they can sell the land on for more than the pub is making easily.

Beachcomber · Apr 18, 2012

Part of the problem is pubco's inflating the take and basically cooking the books to get people to sign up contracts with them.

Any due diligence check on any of these pubs would show the true situation and would provide all the warning you need. Yet many people believe what they are told and take it all at face value. Maybe the pub leasing industry is where all the old time-share salesmen went?

Oh, and as for self-employed people working out their hourly rate - that never works and is a silly comparison.

Banned · Apr 18, 2012

Love all the big man talk "should get out if he's making no money", "he's an idiot for still being there".

If only it worked like that. Shops, pubs, factories any business leasing a property will be committed to that business until a break or the lease ends. If you can't get rid of lease (sub-let, assign, operation-of-law) then you obviously have to pay the monthly rent, rates etc. If you are making enough to cover this, and that £50 profit then you simply HAVE to continue, otherwise this chap would have to find £54,000pa (rent, rates) just to cover an empty pub and then make money of top to live off.

Forget all the guff about being Ltd, makes sod all difference these days with everything requiring directors guarantees. Suppose you can walk if you don't have the balls to stand by your commitments and don't mind the risk of bankruptcy.

Richie N · Apr 18, 2012

For a pub to survive these days they need to sell good food.

It's a shame about this guy but most of us have been there at some point during our business when it's not making money.

Apr 18, 2012

Cobby said:
Congratulations on being in a position to walk away from your investments, I guess? Not everybody can.

Nothing clever about it.

Throwing good money after bad is not a hobby of mine.

Everyone can,declare bankruptcy and get a job that pays more than 79p an hour or go on benefits.Many millions have to.

I would think anything is better than the life he has now.?

Earl

Consistency · Apr 18, 2012

sirearl said:
Nothing clever about it.

Throwing good money after bad is not a hobby of mine.

Everyone can,declare bankruptcy and get a job that pays more than 79p an hour or go on benefits.Many millions have to.

I would think anything is better than the life he has now.?

Earl

Which is what he is doing :|

He is leaving, he can't afford £20,000 to rewire the place, he should not have to either. He can't sell the lease because the building needs rewiring, he can't afford to rewire it and so in a mess.

For those calling him idiot and saying he deserved it, did he know about the rewiring before signing the contract? Possibly not.

Banned · Apr 18, 2012

sirearl said:
Throwing good money after bad is not a hobby of mine.

Everyone can,declare bankruptcy and get a job that pays more than 79p an hour or go on benefits.Many millions have to.

I would think anything is better than the life he has now.?

Earl

Deleted post, can't be bothered with silly arguments for the sake of it (well not today anyway

).

Apr 18, 2012

"He's maintained his pride, dignity and self-esteem"

If course he may starve to death.

Personaly I would rather eat than be pompous.

Earl

Cobby · Apr 18, 2012

sirearl said:
Nothing clever about it.

Throwing good money after bad is not a hobby of mine.

Everyone can,declare bankruptcy and get a job that pays more than 79p an hour or go on benefits.Many millions have to.

No, you're right there's nothing clever about it, sometimes it's just bad luck. Of course some people aren't smart enough to see an issue like this isn't always straightforward, but hey, a few amateur drive-by-trollings are always appreciated.

Sometimes people get caught in a limbo where getting out is a slightly worse situation than staying in, but both options are awful. Sometimes they have themselves to blame, sometimes not.

Consistency said:
For those calling him idiot and saying he deserved it, did he know about the rewiring before signing the contract? Possibly not.

Nobody is saying he deserved it, only that it may be his own fault. If he did not know the place needed rewiring, why not? Did he not bother to check the building or get a survey before agreeing to be responsible for it?

I have never heard anyone (except that oldeagle guy) say that going with a pubco was anything except a terrible idea.

Consistency · Apr 18, 2012

Maybe the rewiring didn't need to be done seven years ago???????

He is a tennant, not buying the place anyway.

I have known other pub landlords who are or were when I knew them in a rut with these such as enterprise and punch. I have no interest in pubs whatsoever but it is a business and for those that judge as well, it is the same folk who may well moan when their favourite hole is shut down.

Pubs used to be a bit of a heart of the community.

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