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Help with factoring

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SGPS

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Jun 15, 2010
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Hi All

I am currently in the process of setting up a workwear and ppe company. Im looking at my cash flow options and was wondering if anybody could help me with the understanding and my options available.

The business will supply to both sole traders and Ltd companies obviously those that dont pay upfront will be on 30 day terms. I expect to invoice around 15k net possibly a little more.

Ive ploughed my own money into this which really only covers me for my set up costs. Hence my enquiries for factoring.

Now i understand the basic principles of it (as the my dads company uses a facility) however i want to find the details out for myself and then at least i know what im talking about when i have a discussion with him.

If anybody could help me out at all that would be appreciated, we hope to be trading in the next 6 weeks and will be based in Blackburn Lancashire.

If you require any further information please do let me know


Many thanks in advance
 
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Hi

Feel free to PM me. My other business is a finance brokerage which I have done for 20 years.

If you give phone number I'm happy to chat you through the tiers and options that might be available to you, and will introduce you directly to a couple of providers to make your own choice

Best regards

Mark
 
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Thanks Elliott i will give them a call in the next two weeks. Much appreciated.

Hi Mark, i will send you an email with my details.

Thanks again :)
 
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Why not have a word with forum member Mark CFL who runs Calverton Factors who would probably be ideal for your needs. They look after their clients well, are priced competitively and don't tie you into long contracts with huge penalties if you don't like them and want to change factors.
 
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Hi all

Thanks for the replies and the people who i have spoke to, as guessed it seems to expensive for my kind of turnover and i am just in the process of possibly sorting an overdraft. So fingers crossed

Thanks
 
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SGPS said:
Hi all

Thanks for the replies and the people who i have spoke to, as guessed it seems to expensive for my kind of turnover and i am just in the process of possibly sorting an overdraft. So fingers crossed

Thanks
Click to expand...


Hi,

I hope it works out well with the overdraft request, but let me put another option on the table for you.

I run a comany called Tandem Invoice Finance and we specialise is Selective Invoice Discounting:

Our invoice finance service allow businesses the flexibility to release capital from single invoices without committing to long-term contracts. They can be used as and when required, allowing businesses to match our facility exactly to their cash flow needs. Our pricing is simple and transparent, and once an invoice is settled, there is no ongoing obligation to reuse our facility, but the fact that many clients do underlines the high standard of service that we provide.


I'd be happy to talk through your options if you contact me, Malcolm Piper, on 01243 520940 or [email protected], or visit www.tandemuk.com.
 
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The best advice on factoring is don't do it. If your business expands quickly you'll be locked in, if sales slump your cash flow will quickly dry up and if you have static sales you won't need it.

I expect this post will be severely bashed by the factoring providers but as with all financial services, they don't do it for your benefit.
 
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Business News said:
The best advice on factoring is don't do it. If your business expands quickly you'll be locked in, if sales slump your cash flow will quickly dry up and if you have static sales you won't need it.

I expect this post will be severely bashed by the factoring providers but as with all financial services, they don't do it for your benefit.
Click to expand...


By what authority would that be 'best advice'?

Details such as lock-ins are part of the negotiation, which is precisely what a good broker is there to sort.

If your sales slump your cashflow will dry up whether you use factoring or not - factoring might give you a buffer to bounce back from.

If you have static sales you will benefit from improved cashflow. The extent/value of that benefit is defined by alternative uses for cash (opportunity cost).

Everything is case specific. Funnily enough on this occasion your sweeping generalisition is probably correct - albeit for the wrong reasons - which I think the customer understands, because he spoke to professionals and listened to the answers.

In you final para you needn't have included the word 'financial'; presumably you are on here as a business, not a charity?
 
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fundingportal said:
By what authority would that be 'best advice'?

Details such as lock-ins are part of the negotiation, which is precisely what a good broker is there to sort.

If your sales slump your cashflow will dry up whether you use factoring or not - factoring might give you a buffer to bounce back from.

If you have static sales you will benefit from improved cashflow. The extent/value of that benefit is defined by alternative uses for cash (opportunity cost).

Everything is case specific. Funnily enough on this occasion your sweeping generalisition is probably correct - albeit for the wrong reasons - which I think the customer understands, because he spoke to professionals and listened to the answers.

In you final para you needn't have included the word 'financial'; presumably you are on here as a business, not a charity?
Click to expand...

Loaning money at high interest rates should always be avoided if at all possible. What fees and interest rates do you typically arrange finance at?

Locking in occurs in a fast growing business as all cash generated is used to drive the business forward and the factoring loan increases corresponding to the proportion of the debtor account that is financed. Therefore, outside of any contractual term, it becomes harder and harder to redeem the loan as unlike a pay down loan it only gets bigger and bigger the more successful you are. I have know individuals who run successful business and have had to work for years to wean themselves off factoring.

If sales slump and you have access to an overdraft you have the flexibility of when you dip into it and how far to dig yourself into it. Repaying interest on the loan provided through factoring in a downturn, at times when the factoring revenue no longer covers immediate running costs, withdraws cash at the time it's most needed rather then injecting it.

I can't see how factoring can improve cash flow in a static sales situation beyond an initial buy out of 80% of the debtor account that then subjects the recipient to additional costs through long term interest repayments on the loan balance?

Factoring can and does work for high growth companies but only at a cost, particularly noticeable and potentially harmful when the growth slows or stops. I'm sure if I was in the selling of financial services business I'd regard a factoring opportunity through a lot more rose coloured tints than I do presently, but then I'd be chasing a sale and not to run my business with it.
 
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Business News said:
The best advice on factoring is don't do it.
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Hear hear!

When factoring was first described to me in the 1960s I couldn't believe anyone would be so naive as to do it. I still don't.

I have never known a supplier to use factoring and survive in the long term. As soon as one of my suppliers starts using a factor is when I start looking for another supplier.
 
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Financing a new business is a tricky choice... As you'll notice there are those in favour of factoring, and those that aren't - based on whether it worked for them or not (and what it cost them)...

My advice would be to talk through your financing options with your accountant, or an independent business finance advisor...
 
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Thanks for all the comments. We where successful in securing a substational overdraft, which unless we have a bad collection rate December should leave us in a comfortable position come the new year.

Dont get me wrong it's took well over 2-3 weeks for them to sort (after acceptance), which i'd have guessed would have been a lot quicker if it was loan. But hey ho!

I used to work for a company that factored their invoices and i agree its great for growth, they went from turning over 250k-350k to 13million in 5 years. The problem that hit them was that they where too focused on chasing an invoice figure rather than concentrating on the structure of the business and getting good customers. It just became a chase for a figure (which yes is the name of the game in business) but my experiences showed me that quality of business is a vital key.

When the recession hit, they carried on chasing sales, not worrying about running the business and collecting payments and needless to say when the slump hit, the ledgers where huuuuge!

Selective invoicing sounds great, a bit of both worlds, but i guess that will be reflected in the price no doubt!

Thanks for all the advice, its a great learning curve. And if im honest, the people who i dealt with where great guys and very clear in the costs etc.
 
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Business News said:
I have know individuals who run successful business and have had to work for years to wean themselves off factoring.
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I wonder how successful these businesses would have been if they hadn't had the benefit of factoring when trying to grow.

SGPS said:
I used to work for a company that factored their invoices and i agree its great for growth, they went from turning over 250k-350k to 13million in 5 years.
Click to expand...

That's the sort of story it would be good to hear more of.

atmosbob said:
I have never known a supplier to use factoring and survive in the long term.
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Factoring very rarely causes the failure of the business as that's down to bad management. I assume that you have also had quite a few suppliers fail on you that haven't been factoring
 
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To take IanJ's comments regarding the success example of a company turning over £250K to £13mn with the assistance of factoring further. I believe the original author of that example did say they went bust. However, considering the costs. At £13mn turnover then we can assume the debtor account would stand at around £2mn. I would expect the interest charge on this to be pushing £3,000/week. A reasonable chunk of change in anyone's talk.

If profits for a company dip the requirement to finance high levels of debt can become cripling. The company doesn't have a big debtor asset sitting on the balance sheet for emergency borrowing as thats already financed. The only option in these circumstances is to borrow more until no one will lend to you and this is when you tear down an otherwise profitable company.

I'd say the failure of highly leveraged companies is indeed down to bad management, a large part of which will be an unsustainable level of debt. Note, the word unsustainable. Factoring supports and really requires sustained and sustainable growth. Not many, outside of our financial services, can guarantee high and growing returns in the present climate?
 
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Business News said:
I have know individuals who run successful business and have had to work for years to wean themselves off factoring.
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And if they had borrowed the money as a lump sum loan? They would have taken years to pay that back as well. That's the way that it works.

I've had clients who have used factoring and grown to the stage where their cashflow allowed them to pay it off in a relatively short period.

With the banks' current approach to unsecured lending, factoring remains a valid method of financing growth. It doesn't matter what it costs if you can build it in to your margins. If your margins are too low to absorb the costs, don't do it.

Many people don't like the turnover charge involved. Others prefer to pay that than put their homes on the line as security.

To dismiss it out of hand as expensive or indicative of a business in trouble doesn't acknowledge the cases where it works perfectly well, and where if there was no factoring there would be no business
 
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David Griffiths said:
It doesn't matter what it costs if you can build it in to your margins. If your margins are too low to absorb the costs, don't do it.
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Im sorry but I have to say that this is a reckless comment. You don't pay loan interest out of margins but out of hard cash derived from profit. It doesn't matter if you are selling at 50% margin, if you don't yield profits you can't pay loan interest.
 
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Business News said:
Im sorry but I have to say that this is a reckless comment. You don't pay loan interest out of margins but out of hard cash derived from profit. It doesn't matter if you are selling at 50% margin, if you don't yield profits you can't pay loan interest.
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I think that you are being deliberately obtuse in order to justify your anti factoring stance.

David's quite valid comment was that in many cases the funding costs could be built into the sale price.

Whilst I understand the point that you are trying to make the really reckless part is borrowing money whether by means of loan, overdraft or factoring if you cannot use that money to generate profits and no-one should contemplate factoring if the funds available couldn't be used to sustain profitable growth
 
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Ian J said:
I think that you are being deliberately obtuse in order to justify your anti factoring stance.

David's quite valid comment was that in many cases the funding costs could be built into the sale price.
Click to expand...

I do consider your comments to be verging on the insulting and demonstrating it is you that lacks rationale or the ability to share it. I have put forward, what I consider is both logical and rational reasoning why factoring is one of the worst forms of lending that a company can embark upon. You have stated absolutely nothing to counter the points I outlined other than to claim I'm being obtuse. If you want to discuss a point of view then please do so, never claim someone is being deliberately obtuse without supporting that statement.

Your quoted comment clearly demonstrates a distinct lack of business operational knowledge on your part. Companies do not factor expenditures into the price, the market dictates the price unless you happen to have a truly unique product offering or a strong international brand. I think you don't have much idea on the operation of a business that relies on sales of a product or service other than finance. Can I pose a question to you, do you factor your business or have you ever utilised factoring in a business of your own? I'll anticipate no and never would be the answers.

The blurb supporting factoring will often say that factoring costs are 'affordable' at for instance 1.5% of the companies turnover which is a common way of presenting it but this is grossly misleading. Loan payments as either capital or interest repayments comes from capital and capital is only ever generated from profits not turnover. A highly profitable company will realise a trading profit of typically pre tax 10% of turnover. Factoring will therefore consume 15% of profits of a healthy company. Clearly for less profitable companies then a much higher percentage of profits can be consumed by factoring finance. Loan repayments or loan interest payments hit the bottom line of a company £1 for £1, not somewhere in the middle or to the top.

Loans are fine and good but factoring isn't really a loan. It's designed to capitalise on the endeavours of others as it increases directly in proportion to the companies sales. The more successful a business is the bigger the debt it faces and therefore the larger the interest payment it has no option but to make. Factoring is very parasitic in it's approach to business support and for that reason alone, it makes me uncomfortable with it as a form of lending.

So please do go on to discuss any points you wish to, or bring in new ones to support invoice discounting or factoring or whatever. Just please do make them specific.
 
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Business News said:
Loans are fine and good but factoring isn't really a loan. It's designed to capitalise on the endeavours of others as it increases directly in proportion to the companies sales. The more successful a business is the bigger the debt it faces and therefore the larger the interest payment it has no option but to make. Factoring is very parasitic in it's approach to business support and for that reason alone, it makes me uncomfortable with it as a form of lending
Click to expand...

I have made the point many times that factoring isn't for everyone and looking back through your posts I see that your own business is failing with sales at half of it's previous levels. Obviously in those circumstances factoring will provide no benefit to your company as it's problems are nothing to do with a lack of working capital holding back growth.

I also notice that you are in the recruitment business so using that as an example many recruitment consultants will have to wait 45 days for payment yet have to pay thheir consultant at the end of the week. Assuming a gross margin of 20% the company will have to find working capital in one form or another of £10,000 to achieve a turnover of £100,000 per annum which will result in a gross profit of £20,000

In order to grow the business to £500,000 if all things are equal he will need to find funding of £50,000 and whilst £10k may be relatively easy to find £50k isn't and many people will turn to factoring in those circumstances.

With the benefit of factoring the company may reach their target of £500,000 which should generate a gross profit of £100,000 with very little increase in overheads. Factoring may cost him 4% of sales but will still leave him with £76,000 extra on the bottom line than if he hadn't taken the funding to grow.

Hardly parasitic but more of a mutually beneficial partnership if you ask me
 
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Ian J said:
looking back through your posts I see that your own business is failing with sales at half of it's previous levels. Obviously in those circumstances factoring will provide no benefit to your company as it's problems are nothing to do with a lack of working capital holding back growth.
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I take it this is an attempted dig that is entirely irrelevant to the topic of this thread and demonstrates clearly to me that you have little meaningful to input. For those outside of financial services it has been an interesting time over the last 3 years. My own company state has nothing to do with this thread so drop it - it's not relevant. To protect my business interest I will state openly that we have seen our largest customer fail, close its door and disappear into the annals of history and this did, quite naturally, hit our own business. We have restructured around a wider spread of new customers and have in that last twelve months seen 100% growth in sales. It is companies that can't adapt that fail and thankfully my company has adapted. Do please endavour to keep on topic.
 
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Ian J said:
With the benefit of factoring the company may reach their target of £500,000 which should generate a gross profit of £100,000 with very little increase in overheads. Factoring may cost him 4% of sales but will still leave him with £76,000 extra on the bottom line than if he hadn't taken the funding to grow.
Click to expand...

You seem to have problems differentiation turnover, expenditure, gross profit and trading profit. It is impossible to grow sales from zero to £500K with no costs associated. Im bored with this thread as it's gone off topic and you are in danger of making yourself look obtuse.
 
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Business News said:
I take it this is an attempted dig that is entirely irrelevant to the topic of this thread and demonstrates clearly to me that you have little meaningful to input.
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Not at all. We all view matters from the perspective of our own experience and I was just pointing out that your perspective may be somewhat coloured and I shall leave it to others to decide whether my imnput is meaningful or not.

Business News said:
You seem to have problems differentiation turnover, expenditure, gross profit and trading profit.
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If the truth be known I think that it's yourself that has difficulties in digesting posts that don't agree with your opinions as you seem to have had problems understanding David Griffiths' post relating to accounting matters as well as my own
 
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Business News said:
Loaning money at high interest rates should always be avoided if at all possible. What fees and interest rates do you typically arrange finance at?

Locking in occurs in a fast growing business as all cash generated is used to drive the business forward and the factoring loan increases corresponding to the proportion of the debtor account that is financed. Therefore, outside of any contractual term, it becomes harder and harder to redeem the loan as unlike a pay down loan it only gets bigger and bigger the more successful you are. I have know individuals who run successful business and have had to work for years to wean themselves off factoring.

If sales slump and you have access to an overdraft you have the flexibility of when you dip into it and how far to dig yourself into it. Repaying interest on the loan provided through factoring in a downturn, at times when the factoring revenue no longer covers immediate running costs, withdraws cash at the time it's most needed rather then injecting it.

I can't see how factoring can improve cash flow in a static sales situation beyond an initial buy out of 80% of the debtor account that then subjects the recipient to additional costs through long term interest repayments on the loan balance?

Factoring can and does work for high growth companies but only at a cost, particularly noticeable and potentially harmful when the growth slows or stops. I'm sure if I was in the selling of financial services business I'd regard a factoring opportunity through a lot more rose coloured tints than I do presently, but then I'd be chasing a sale and not to run my business with it.
Click to expand...

Your central argument is completely illogical.

Taking on debt is a business choice you do not have to take 80% advance against invoices, in fact the borrowing element of factoring is exactly the same as overdraft - you draw what you need and pay interest on that amount; so when the business peak you indebtedness is the same whether you use overdraft or factoring.

Except that overdrafts are repayable on demand and banks are under considerable pressure to restore their capital base..

If your point is that it isn't a good idea to borrow money when your business is going down the tubes then I would generally agree with you - as would most on here.

With regard to high interest rates, then I would be interested to hear how you judge whether interest rates are 'high' - I have illustrated elsewhere on this forum an instance where a 3,500% pay day loan can actually work out cheaper than a standard overdraft. Obviously this isn't normal, but does serve the point that each case is different.

Borrowing money is a commercial decision, just like any other business product or service - it's viability should be judged on a mixture of ROI, opportunity cost and like-for-like comparison of terms (including cost). Taken as a mature business decision, invoice finance is just as sensible a toll as any other product.
 
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Ian J said:
Not at all. We all view matters from the perspective of our own experience and I was just pointing out that your perspective may be somewhat coloured and I shall leave it to others to decide whether my imnput is meaningful or not.
Click to expand...

I agree with something you've stated for the first time. Although again a generalisation and off topic.

It must be hard to sit back chilled and considered when someone is advising others against the very products you are offering in what are difficult trading times. So I think I can understand some of your drive here to get personal. I do feel, however, you'd be better serving your cause if if you were to stick to stating and explaining reasons why rather than reasons why not. It's the old half full versus half empty scenario. I wish you the best of luck and restored success after what appears to have been your own difficult trading period to arranging financial support to many an emerging business.
 
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fundingportal said:
Your central argument is completely illogical.

Taking on debt is a business choice you do not have to take 80% advance against invoices, in fact the borrowing element of factoring is exactly the same as overdraft - you draw what you need and pay interest on that amount; so when the business peak you indebtedness is the same whether you use overdraft or factoring.
Click to expand...

Factoring loans and an overdraft are common in only one way, they involve loans from a financial institution. Other than that they cannot be as easily compared as you suggest. Overdrafts tend to have limits factoring loans tend not to. Overdrafts are designed to be a short term lending option, factoring is designed to be long term. Overdrafts are not fixed term, factoring agreements tend to be of fixed duration or minimum term. Overdrafts are flexible to the assigned limit of lending, factoring agreements follow whats in the contract.

[/quote]Except that overdrafts are repayable on demand and banks are under considerable pressure to restore their capital base.[/quote]

I've no experience of my bank doing anything other trying to lend me money.

[/quote]If your point is that it isn't a good idea to borrow money when your business is going down the tubes then I would generally agree with you - as would most on here.[/quote]

Agreed

[/quote]With regard to high interest rates, then I would be interested to hear how you judge whether interest rates are 'high' - I have illustrated elsewhere on this forum an instance where a 3,500% pay day loan can actually work out cheaper than a standard overdraft. Obviously this isn't normal, but does serve the point that each case is different.[/quote]

Your short term lending example is far from the norm. Factoring is more usually applied to long term interest only lending.

[/quote]Borrowing money is a commercial decision, just like any other business product or service - it's viability should be judged on a mixture of ROI, opportunity cost and like-for-like comparison of terms (including cost). Taken as a mature business decision, invoice finance is just as sensible a toll as any other product.[/quote]

Invoice financing is amongst the most favoured product amongst providers.
 
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Business News said:
It must be hard to sit back chilled and considered when someone is advising others against the very products you are offering in what are difficult trading times. So I think I can understand some of your drive here to get personal. I do feel, however, you’d be better serving your cause if if you were to stick to stating and explaining reasons why rather than reasons why not. It’s the old half full versus half empty scenario. I wish you the best of luck and restored success after what appears to have been your own difficult trading period to arranging financial support to many an emerging business.
Click to expand...

I wondered what that whoooooooshing sound was then realised that it was your credibility disappearing down the plug hole :)

This subject is something that you clearly neither know nor understand and it would be a shame if anyone assumed your posts to be from someone who knew what they were talking about
 
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My last post on this topic, which really is going nowhere.

If your bank are trying to lend you money, consider yourself lucky! Many people on here would welcome an introduction.

Banks are now under considerable pressure to lend the right money in the right way; this is now more profound than ever with the announcements of capital requirements last week.

One of the problems that banks created for themselves and their customers is that they treated overdraft lending as a sort of dumping ground for virtually any type of borrowing - which was ultimately disastrous for the banks and their customers. I have parodied this in my blog http://fundingportal.blogspot.com/2011/07/business-finance-customers-perspective.html

Invoice finance is in many cases considered the appropriate tool because it has a direct business source and is, to a large extent, self supporting. From a borrowers perspective this makes it often easier to arrange and far less likely to require onerous personal security.

Your broad point applies to most aspects of business expense such as premises, staff, vehicles, equipment etc - ie when the going gets tough you will struggle to pay however that doesn't mean that the van salesman has conned you. Many businesses plod along quite happily with minimal overhead and minimal growth, whilst others are more ambitious and take on costs in - hopefully - a considered and calculated way (which is the true meaning of entrepreneurship)

We have established that every case is different. Throughout this forum there are any number of threads dismissing entire categories of business because of a bad experience or bad judgement. In each case I would say; make a considered judgment relative to your own specific circumstances.
 
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Ian J said:
I wondered what that whoooooooshing sound was then realised that it was your credibility disappearing down the plug hole :)

This subject is something that you clearly neither know nor understand and it would be a shame if anyone assumed your posts to be from someone who knew what they were talking about
Click to expand...

Yet more generalisations. Do come up with some pertinent points please. You say nothing, offer up nothing, discuss nothing and yet seek to disparage the detailed submissions of others with nothing comments.
 
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fundingportal said:
My last post on this topic, which really is going nowhere.

If your bank are trying to lend you money, consider yourself lucky! Many people on here would welcome an introduction.

Banks are now under considerable pressure to lend the right money in the right way; this is now more profound than ever with the announcements of capital requirements last week.

One of the problems that banks created for themselves and their customers is that they treated overdraft lending as a sort of dumping ground for virtually any type of borrowing - which was ultimately disastrous for the banks and their customers. I have parodied this in my blog http://fundingportal.blogspot.com/2011/07/business-finance-customers-perspective.html

Invoice finance is in many cases considered the appropriate tool because it has a direct business source and is, to a large extent, self supporting. From a borrowers perspective this makes it often easier to arrange and far less likely to require onerous personal security.

Your broad point applies to most aspects of business expense such as premises, staff, vehicles, equipment etc - ie when the going gets tough you will struggle to pay however that doesn't mean that the van salesman has conned you. Many businesses plod along quite happily with minimal overhead and minimal growth, whilst others are more ambitious and take on costs in - hopefully - a considered and calculated way (which is the true meaning of entrepreneurship)

We have established that every case is different. Throughout this forum there are any number of threads dismissing entire categories of business because of a bad experience or bad judgement. In each case I would say; make a considered judgment relative to your own specific circumstances.
Click to expand...

At last a considered and reasoned opionion from the funding brigade, thank you.
 
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We offer bespoke solutions to help businesses prevent debts and speed up cash flow, and, although we can do spot factoring, there are far more cost effective, less risky, and less restrictive options. Our services are guaranteed, in that if we cannot recover 10 x the cost of our fee, we will refund you. We are the ONLY company in the Uk who offer Guaranteed Credit Checking, Guaranteed Debt Collection, and In-House Litigation - all under one roof.
We also offer a complete Credit Control service, which will be MUCH cheaper than employing someone to carry out this function.
I would be happy to chat to you if you want to contact me on - 07979 480617
Regards
Neil
 
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