PPL, are they allowed to use bully tactics now?

4 months ago before I opened the salon I rang PPL and PRS in regards to a music licence, PRS sent one out within 7 day and I paid it, PPL still hadn’t sent a licence or an invoice some 2 months later so I contacted them and asked what was happening, finally 10 days ago the send me a licence and an invoice, today I get a phone call answered by the receptionist, it was PPL saying that if I don’t pay up within 2 days they will take further action!!!! The receptionist says she had a very abrupt and bullying manner. It’s taken them almost 4 months to sort this out then they issue threats after just 10 days!!! Needless to say they got a rather irate call back from myself, do these companies have a right to use bully tactics now?

Not a happy bunny today :mad:
 
Despite being a supporter of PPL/PRS, there are plenty of reports of somewhat strong phone calls - which I presume is a deliberate tactic. A strong formal complaint is in order I think.


I think your right, its not as if I was trying to evade them, I contacted them in the first place and chased it up when it didnt arrive just to make sure they still had my details, I just find the strong arm tactics annoying and uncalled for.
 
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We have an issue with PPL and their bullying tactics!
They are trying to invoice us for a license for a period that we did not have a radio.
We have written to them three times to explain.
They have now passed on the invoice to a 'debt collector' in the Portsmouth area.
We have spoken to them and advised them that the invoice is under dispute.
- Their response ~ 'Tough pay up'!

We have paid the license fee for the forth coming year.
They seem to think they can just demand money and people will pay. It's hard enough for small businesses these days as it is!
I will pursue this as far as I can.
Anybody else had this issue?
THANKS

:|
 
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obscure

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Don't ignore it. Doing that can result in your credit rating being damaged which will take a lot of time and effort to fix. Deal with it. Write to the collections company stating that you dispute the debt and requesting proof that you owe the money. Without proof they can't pursue the debt and wont.
 
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jsaila

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Sep 23, 2011
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my wife received a phone call from PPL asking if she played music in her shop, she told them she didn't. They then asked about listening to the radio and were told she occasionally listened to the news at lunchtime when closed. They are now demanding payment on the grounds she may have heard 'jingles' during the broadcast. They also sent a leaflet saying if you don't play recorded music you are not liable to pay. We sent a letter telling them not to be ridiculous and objecting to the harassment, as my wife only listened to the news, by herself and when the shop was closed; she also said that she would listen to it in the car in future.
PPL have now replied saying that it doesn't matter if the shop is closed, if she is listening to the radio then she must pay. Almost simultaneously they put a debt collection firm onto her without awaiting any reply. Not only is this bullying but they seem to contradict their own leaflet by implying that whatever you listen to you must pay because you 'may' hear a jingle. The leaflet also says that reasonable time is allowed but they immediately instructed debt collectors. I didn't realise the KGB were in charge and feel like telling them to go to hell but it is stressing out my wife so any advice on would the legality of their actions would be welcome. In essence PPL are trying to deny her the right to listen news broadcasts in privacy which can't be right......or can it?
Oh! I forgot to mention they have also included a fine for not having their licence before.
 
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paulears

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If she answered the phone and said XYZ Dresswear, and then said she played music on the premises - the important part of the conversation ended there. She told them she listened to the radio on the premises - opening the way for the invoice for the invoice for the previous time.

I don't agree with their tactics and methods of collection, but I'm a PPL member, and gave them permission to collect money on my behalf when I signed up.

However - if you only watch ITV, you need a TV license, which goes to the BBC. Odd, but it's the law.

In this case, weird though it seems, you listen to broadcast radio - in commercial premises, and pretty well, that is it! For you to successfully fight it, you would have to convince a judge that on the balance of probability, you never listened to music or other copyright material. Having a radio in the shop, that was only used for just a short period each day on a non-music channel, that had no music beds or stings, would stretch the imagination of the judge - even if you really did only listen to the bits between stings.

I realise you find this unreasonable, but like the TV license thing - some people will always find it unfair.

I imagine that PPL and PRS have just got to the stage where they've heard all the excuses and arguments, and don't wish to enter into the discussion bit, simply slapping in the invoices and then content to let the law take it's course in court. Searching the net, I can find very, very few cases of them not winning in court - which suggests that while very stressful, it's perhaps better to just give in, like speeding fines. Almost impossible to prove you didn't!
 
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shadesofblue

my wife received a phone call from PPL asking if she played music in her shop, she told them she didn't. They then asked about listening to the radio and were told she occasionally listened to the news at lunchtime when closed. They are now demanding payment on the grounds she may have heard 'jingles' during the broadcast. They also sent a leaflet saying if you don't play recorded music you are not liable to pay. We sent a letter telling them not to be ridiculous and objecting to the harassment, as my wife only listened to the news, by herself and when the shop was closed; she also said that she would listen to it in the car in future.
PPL have now replied saying that it doesn't matter if the shop is closed, if she is listening to the radio then she must pay. Almost simultaneously they put a debt collection firm onto her without awaiting any reply. Not only is this bullying but they seem to contradict their own leaflet by implying that whatever you listen to you must pay because you 'may' hear a jingle. The leaflet also says that reasonable time is allowed but they immediately instructed debt collectors. I didn't realise the KGB were in charge and feel like telling them to go to hell but it is stressing out my wife so any advice on would the legality of their actions would be welcome. In essence PPL are trying to deny her the right to listen news broadcasts in privacy which can't be right......or can it?
Oh! I forgot to mention they have also included a fine for not having their licence before.

Debt collection companies are toothless tigers. I'm on my sixth letter from one regarding parking in a supermarket car park.

In terms of private parking tickets the best course of action is to ignore them completely but If need be write to them explaining the situation and then stick it out and see if they take you to the small claims court the basis of the information they have.

Companies like this rely on the fear of legal process to get people to pay up
 
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shadesofblue

Don't ignore it. Doing that can result in your credit rating being damaged which will take a lot of time and effort to fix. Deal with it. Write to the collections company stating that you dispute the debt and requesting proof that you owe the money. Without proof they can't pursue the debt and wont.


That's wrong, if this hasn't been to court then a debt collection company can do nothing.
 
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mhall

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It's not that they are bullies, it is that they subcontract the work to a call centre company in Merseyside who are the most pig ignorant people you will ever speak to. Their bullying and aggressive behaviour scares people into paying - that ticks the boxes for PRS so they continue to use them.

PRS and PPL couldn't give a monkeys and are very good at twisting words of the law to scare you- just a glance at their leaflets would have you believing they have special dispensation from God to do whatever they want but take the leaflets line by line and you find your self saying "really - that's not the whole truth is it now?" every few seconds.
 
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jsaila

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Sep 23, 2011
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Thanks for the reply. This goes against natural justice and it is pretty depressing that an individual can not, in privacy, listen to a news broadcast. Does it also apply if one listens to the radio in a company vehicle? PPL are also acting as judge and jury by imposing an automatic fine.
So when does the year start and how do we prevent this happening again if PPL are the sole arbiter of what you listen to.
Why does their leaflet state that a licence is not needed if you don't listen to recorded music when they have the power to state you may have heard an embedded jingle in anything you listen to, seems a bit superfluous unless it is intended to show the political masters they are not being dictatorial. I find it difficult to believe the legislation was intended to work this way.
 
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paulears

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It's not really the legislation - the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act is probably one of the most confusing things around - but copyright for music is (and always has been) very complicated, and even doing it properly can be amazingly difficult to do, and sometimes even when you try, compliance is almost impossible.

An individual can indeed listen to a news broadcast without fear of fines. The trouble is how on earth do you prove it? A radio in the office doesn't have a padlock, it doesn't have a fixed tuning dial? How many businesses use a TV set connected to their security system, just because they had one available, rather than using a dedicated monitor? If you do, then do you have a TV license at the premises? Strictly speaking, the offence is having the TV receiving apparatus in your possession, without a license. It's rather silly that in order to watch a camera you need a TV license, but that's how it is.

The trouble is that PPL is an organisation nobody had ever heard of. I suspect they saw PRS collecting lots of the composer's rights, so they decided to do the same thing for the performers's rights.

The thing of course is that we'll always have differences of opinion, but if you want to fight the agencies it will cost you, and you'd need to have proof you didn't infringe copyright - and I have no idea how that would be done!

I had the PPL phone call to my business number. Do you use recorded music at your premises. Yes, I said. Are you aware that the use of recorded music requires a license? Yes again I said. I think they figured they were on a winner. Then I mentioned that I'm actually a PRS and PPL member who is producing the very music you are licensing. I never heard anything from them again. Rather annoyingly, the sampling system they use to distribute the royalties decreed that they don't owe me any money, despite me knowing it's been used. So in a way, I should be annoyed that the money owed to me for playing my music got given to Elton John and Paul McCartney - but that's how the system works, and I have to live with that - even though I figure it's unfair. Life is tough!
 
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jsaila

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Thanks again Paulgears but I believed the law of the land was that you had to be proved guilty not the other way round. PPL are working on the assumption that you MAY have heard something, intentional or not and therefor you are guilty.
A further thought on this, if I phone a company and they put me on hold, as per the norm these days, they usually play musac down the line to sooth my waiting time, which is sometimes many minutes. Therefor working on the PPL principle I am gaining some benefit so should have a licence. In this case every business in the land should have a licence, or would have to prove they didn't listen to it? Again I say they are exceeding the purpose of the legislation..
 
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paulears

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In criminal cases, it is - but in civil matters, the test is simply by the balance of probability. So the judge would consider the case before them, and consider if based on the evidence, you really did only listen to the shipping forecast, or did you perhaps listen to other things? They don't have to prove you did, just that it is likely you did. Hence why they don't actually need to prove you listened to music, and you can't produce evidence you didn't - so it comes down to the judge listening to what you say when being cross examined. Rotten!

If the company on the phone are playing music TO you, then they are the ones who have to pay. In the office, the issue is more difficult because the business is providing the copyright material to be consumed - that's how it's thought of. So if you are the 'business' then you are providing it. There might be a get-out if you are self-employed, as you'd be providing music to yourself - which might be considered personal use, but you'd have to find a way of evidencing it? You need to consider how a neutral outsider would view it - as in the judge. If they considered it reasonable that you could listen to music in your own premises, on your own, at lunch time - as in in private, then you might be fine. On the other hand, they might consider if the radio was a provate purchase or made through the business, and then interpret that as non-domestic.

It's obviously a bit stupid, and I dare say the intention of the law wasn't this - however, that doesn't mean it doesn't apply.
 
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jsaila

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Thanks again. As a newbie I was unaware there was so much already on this subject until the PPL demands came in so apologies to all who are bored. Since your last reply I have been desperately trying to catch up and on reading some of your other posts, plus many others, there is some confusion on whether an individual, using their own equipment, can, in private, listen to a radio outside a domestic situation (closed shop) without a PPL licence.
PPL say no but they have a vested interest; has anyone asked the BBC for their interpretation, or advice me which department to approach.
I have never ripped off any music, wouldn't know how to, but £200 to listen to news at one is a bit steep.
 
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paulears

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The BBC do cover it in the terms and conditions - and are actually one of the main sources of performance data to PRS/PPL - BBC 'needle time' has been the key to royalties for years. So they're very aware of their remit - which is public broadcasting. It has caused trouble in the past, especially when wired into factory PA systems as background music, and the licensing of music products when used non-domestically was a separate thing. Very few people are aware that there is a third company involved in copyright - MCPS, who are now linked to the PRS. Officially, if you buy a CD and transfer it to a different medium to use, this should have been licensed. It's got totally confused now because music products exist electronically - so even attempting to individually license copying of legit material would be impossible and expensive. So they license the people who do it lots - businesses normally in the entertainment and broadcast business who have to do this every day. The blurb on a CD specifically prohibits copying, but radio stations nowadays ingest all their CDs into a machine, which the studios then playout from - but this means they have copied the CDs, and they have to pay.

I suspect everyone really wants copyright to be thought about and the legislation reviewed, but it's way down the Government's list. In fact, the EU just increased the copyright period on performance to match that of the composers. It was 50 years, but now it's 70 to match the composer's protection period. I'm in the middle of a project at the moment - and due to me not checking, I've discovered Fanfare for the Common Man is going to really cost my client - It was written in 1942, not 41 as he thought - which means it is still protected - and use must be paid for. I'm now looking for something similar, but a tad older. Increasing the performer's rights will make them happier, especially Sir Cliff!
 
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mac4k

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We are also having problems with PPL, We are a small Teashop and Village Store, we do not play music to the public or our part time employees. We live on the premises and have a tv and radio in our kitchen, which is both for our private use and also business use. We never applied for a licence from PRS because we never intended to play music to the public. We had a run in with PRS about 3 years ago and after several aggressive phone calls we finally got them to agree that we did not need a licence, this was done via e-mail. We had never heard of PPL until August of this year when we got a telephone call from them. I quite honestly told them that we do have a radio in our kitchen (maybe I should have lied), but explained that we didn't perform music publicly. We received an invoice within two days for last year, next year and also a surcharge.

We have contacted them several times since by telephone and get nowhere, their staff are very aggressive. We have e-mailed them three times now asking for clarification as to why we are being invoiced as we do not perform music publicly, which is what their invoice says. They are completely unwilling to put anything in writing and insist on telephoning us! Make of that what you will. We are writing to our MP and I have also noticed there is an e-petition on the Government website about PPLs bullying techniques. Which I have signed.

I am sure that they must be able to procure sufficient cash from the big boys without having to go after small businesses.
 
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mac4k

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We run a small Teashop and Village Store and made a conscious decision not to play music to the public, therefore never applied for a licence. We were contacted a couple of years ago by PRS who were very aggressive telephoning several times. After numerous conversations we finally sent them an e-mail stating we did not play music to the public or our staff. They finally agreed that we did not need a licence. At this point we thought we had resolved the issue.

Until August of this year we had never heard of PPL, thinking that PRS were the only organisation out there. Anyway I stupidly told the truth that we do have a radio in our kitchen. We live on the premises and our kitchen is both for domestic and business use. I told them that we never play music publicly or to our staff and within two days received an invoice for this year, last year and a surcharge.

We have telephoned them several times and again they have been very aggressive and insisted that we have to pay it. We have now e-mailed them twice requesting why we have to pay when listening to our own radio in our own kitchen. The invoice states that we are being charged for playing music publicly and we have asked them for a definition of this. They have not replied by e-mail but have telephoned us again. We have told them to e-mail a response and that we are contacting our MP. They seem extremely unwilling to put down in a written response what they are saying on the phone.

I noticed that there was an e-petition on the Government website about their bullying tactics and have signed it and we do intend to take it up with our MP.

I think it is wholly wrong that there are two organisations out there with two licencing schemes. Small businesses have enough licences etc to pay out for. If we had taken the decision to play music for our staff and to the public then I would accept that we need a licence and would be willing to pay one of these organisations for this privilege but not two and not for playing music in my own kitchen.
 
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jsaila

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Thanks mac4, I didn't know about the petition but have signed it now. Can I appeal to all small businesses to sign it and try and stop this daylight robbery.
We are also banning PPL staff, agents, or associates from our shop and will display sign in the window stating this. Has anyone experience of such an action, would it leave us open to claims of discrimination?
Also writing to Watchdog and MP.
Everyone I have spoken to would not believe this is going on and once persuaded were outraged by PPL's actions.
 
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paulears

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The key was business. You kitchen if only for private use would be fine but you shot yourself in thefoot by telling them you use it in the course of your business. You may also find Prs will also take the same view now you owned up to ppl? What's defence have you? None, you admitted to business use. I wish you luck with the mp but I doubt they will get involved especially as copyright law has recently been tested in the courts.

Much as I sympathise, there are two schemes because there are multiple rights holders - the artistes who performed the music have rights on their contribution, and the person who wrote the music has rights too. It's common sense that they should be the same, but copyright originally was only concerned with the composers - recording hadn't been possible because it wasn't invented. If anyone has old sheet music from the early 1900's it always mentions copyright. Once we started recording music it suddenly became more complicated. Rogers and Hammerstein wrote it in 1945 - so it is still under copyright. However, Gerry and the Pacemakers made it popular again in the 1960s, so their performance generates income for them, while the songwriting royalties go to the composers. That's why there are two separate organisations. I know it sounds like a rip-off, but these people are legally entitled to payment for using their products.

Music is always treated as somehow a product that should be free. Small businesses do have many licensing issues to take into account - that's just a downside to being in business. Try selling Disney products without a license if you wish to see how rigidly copyright is enforced. Using images from Google in your advertising can be a much more expensive problem if you use Getty Images without permission - their recover costs are very high, and they protect them fiercely, which again people complain about. Ignorance about any aspect of the law isn't good to rely on as a defence, and the trouble seems to be people believe not having to pay for some things is right.

It's much simpler to simply do an automated country court summons, and leave it to the judge to rule. They probably have no option but to find against people, because the legal question is so watertight. Did you use the copyright material in the course of your business, and if you say yes, but ......... you are guilty - and costs can be high!

Not liking a law isn't an excuse for not complying with it. Oddly I can't think of any musicians who would think the law is wrong. I work a lot with the Musicians Union, and there are clear rules on extra payments when people do extra things with their work. Music, photographs, video, art, even knitting patterns all have copyright restrictions, as do trademarks and patents. When somebody develops a new drug, they don't give it away free - just because it will save lives. When Ugg design a new boot, do they go after the Chinese factories that copy them. If you have a shop, would you sell counterfeit goods? All these things come down to ownership of rights.

If somebody opened a tea shop near you, and borrowed your menu, or colour scheme or logo - would this be ok? Do you have to take out a license from the local authority to be able to sell alcohol, and have food safety certificates, all separately?

People just object to paying for music - I understand, but get very agitated when they try to defend it. All laws are unfair to some people - like locally the guy who complaining about having to pay for water AND sewage, saying this is unfair and he's paying twice for the same product. Daft, but not so different from what we're talking about here?
 
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Deleted member 59730

Suppose you don't listen to music but you do like Radio 4's morning story and afternoon play. What are you going to do when another 2 licensing groups come after you for those? Don't say it can't happen. Its government policy to be introduced this autumn.

Don't get me onto books. Every publisher of every book in the UK has to donate 5 copies, one each to the major UK and one Irish libraries. Now the British Museum are in league with Google to digitise these books from which the BM and Google will make a big fat profit and the publishers and authors get zero. Its not only cafes that think copyright should be free but the government too.
 
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paulears

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I don't see the problem here? Radio 4 are an avid user of copyright sound effects and wild tracks in their output, so it's perfectly fine for domestic use, and needs a license for use within a business. Book publishers have the need to provide the copies you mention to get the ISBN number that allows referencing. Not every publisher has an agreement to allow distribution via the net, so the idea that the copyright owners will lose out is not quite right. Many publishers have specific non-electronic distribution built in. As an example, the publisher Pearson who distribute much of the their material via modern media have this stitched up. As far as I am aware the agreement allows the British Library (not the musuem any longer) to make available electronically and works out of copyright - I don't think (and I could be wrong) that they can sell any content that is still in copyright. It's a useful feature, and makes certain that publications you cannot get any longer can be seen and don't get forgotten.
 
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jsaila

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Paul, we clearly live in different worlds. How on earth can you say that if I listen to the BBC4 news and weather, in private, in my lunch hour, it is in the course of my business. You keep implying that I am trying to rip off some poor starving artiste or record manufacturer but you are blurring the issue by going on about copyright and people expecting to listen to music for free, when have I ever said that? If we play music to benefit the business we expect to pay.
Let me repeat one more time as simply as I can, my wife used to listen to the BBC 4 midday news alone when she locked the shop at lunch time. She is not interested in music and we both feel the playing of jingles is an abomination. This association are acting like the Mafia by demanding payment with menaces. And if I sound agitated it is because my wife now feels forced to leave the premises and walk a quarter of a mile to sit in her car to listen TO THE NEWS.
Using your rationale she would infringe copyright if she read a book while sitting in private in a closed office.
One more thing, I notice you haven't said what she can listen to without fear of falling foul of PPL rules. I am not trying to rob you of your royalties but neither should you expect me to pay you for something I have neither asked for or received.
 
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Book publishers have the need to provide the copies you mention to get the ISBN number that allows referencing. Not every publisher has an agreement to allow distribution via the net, so the idea that the copyright owners will lose out is not quite right.

Dear Paul

ISBN nos are handled by Neilsen Book Services. Nothing to do with the free deposit copies.

You use the present tense. I am talking about what the government plan to introduce starting as soon as this autumn.

Google are currently scanning thousands of in print and in copyright books. I have 4 of mine on Google books and am struggling to get the content of the inside pages removed. The pages show full page photographs and a screen grab would be very usable. Apparently permission was given by a Canadian publisher who I have never heard of.

Most people are only aware of the PRS and PPL collecting societies. There are others. DACS send me a cheque every year worth a nice weekend break.
 
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paulears

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Sorry for the ISBN inclusion - no idea why I did that.

The problem with the radio copyright issue isn't really about you listening in private in your office at lunch time - it's to do with the determination of what is business use. I'm no lawyer, but I would have thought that if you brought the radio in from home and were listening in private on your personal radio during the lunch break this would be private, rather than personal. However, there is already the example of the prison service, determined already by the Government - a prison officer cannot listen to music during his work. They also decided that allowing staff to use their radios on company premises was 'business use'. Until somebody decides to take this to the High Court, nobody can be certain.

As for the Jingles and sound effects - it's part of the service, and is up to you to like or dislike, I have no opinion - but the BBC smallprint is clear - their service is for private use, not business. Licenses clear them to broadcast to the public, but not when reproduced by business. So playing music to the public outside a shop as well as inside is not covered. You misunderstand much of what I'm saying (to jsaila) I don't imply you are robbing people - I'm just saying that you are not paying when perhaps you should be?
If we play music to benefit the business we expect to pay.[/quote}
Benefitting the business is NOT the rule - it's in the course of your business - so if you promote it in any way (including buying the radio from petty cash, for private lunchtime use) that's a clear breach.

I'm happy for you to do what you like, but please don't moan when you get fined - that's all.
Paul
 
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kulture

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    The whole situation is daft and full of contradictions. The PPL and PRS make the rules, and I suspect make it up as they go along sometimes.

    In this situation they seem to have decided that a lone employee sitting on their lunch break listening to the radio quietly where no member of the public can hear, is business use and thus needs a licence.

    In the situation where a van driver sits in their van and drives, or a company rep in their car drives, they have decided that listening to the radio, no matter what volume, is NOT business use and they do not need a licence.

    Go figure.
     
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    Davek0974

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    So if an employee brings a radio to work and plays it for his/her own use would I have to get a licence?

    Yes.

    Its bloody stupid and the way they con people into giving details away over the phone should be made illegal, its nothing short of interrogation under duress.

    We have been on the receiving end recently and its still stinging from the arguments that followed over the phone to these thieves.

    As i have said before, we have no qualms about paying to play recorded music at work but NOT for listening to the radio regardless what tripe they are playing.
     
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    So far from my "discussions" with the ppl bully boys, the point is NOT whether an individual is using his/her private radio in their lunch hour or whatever, the point seems to be in PPLs view that there is a radio ON ANY PREMISES USED FOR BUSINESS and unless that one person is using an ear piece or headphones then potentially someone else just might hear it, therefor a licence is needed.

    I have just started my written response to Oriel Collections and PPL, I suspect it may be a long drawn out saga! there must be thousands of small business's out there that are getting the same treatment, if everyone responds by writing it might just choke them off!
     
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    paulears

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    That sounds about right. Technically, providing music to another person is actually broadcasting - hence why headphone are useful, they virtually guarantee you are not broadcasting, just consuming. If it goes to court, you are in a good position, because even if they have a barrister skilled in copyright law, the judge probably won't be an expert. You really need legal opinion on your case, because costs can be crippling. It may 'only' be county court, but PPL will have a Barrister - that you can be sure of, and if you lose - it won't be cheap!
     
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    Cobby

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    Paul, we clearly live in different worlds. How on earth can you say that if I listen to the BBC4 news and weather, in private, in my lunch hour, it is in the course of my business. You keep implying that I am trying to rip off some poor starving artiste or record manufacturer but you are blurring the issue by going on about copyright and people expecting to listen to music for free, when have I ever said that?

    Paul seems to be a PPL/PRS apologist, albeit an upfront, helpful and interesting one, so you have to take what he says with a pinch of salt. A bit like when those unskippable DVD-intro skits equate lending a dvd to a friend with actual genocide (at least that's the gravitas they seem to be trying to convey).
     
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    Cobby

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    Searching the net, I can find very, very few cases of them not winning in court - which suggests that while very stressful, it's perhaps better to just give in, like speeding fines. Almost impossible to prove you didn't!

    I'm sure you don't mean to sound like you'd be quite pleased to see everyone just 'give in', regardless. It's a nice little anecdotal line though, "Everything I read says they win, better pay them their money."

    I'd be curious about their actual success figures. Also about how many cases they just drop because they know they are in the wrong and have no chance of winning. My speculation would be many.
     
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    Davek0974

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    Mar 7, 2008
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    I'd be curious about their actual success figures. Also about how many cases they just drop because they know they are in the wrong and have no chance of winning. My speculation would be many.

    That was what i was going on, i could find little evidence of successful claims, albeit stressfull to fight, i think it may be worth sticking it to them. The tactics they use are underhand and blatantly offensive. They do not announce who they are when they call, they do not announce that the call is being recorded, they will not listen to you at all.

    The law needs looking into on this matter as they will even demand a fee for having a non-functional radio on the premises, the question was "do you have a radio there?" and as soon as you say yes, thats it, the invoice is in the post with a fine for past years. The fact that the radio is in bits and has never worked is irrelevant.

    They should be made to actually prove that you were listening to it. Things would be massively different then.
     
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    shadesofblue

    That was what i was going on, i could find little evidence of successful claims, albeit stressfull to fight, i think it may be worth sticking it to them. The tactics they use are underhand and blatantly offensive. They do not announce who they are when they call, they do not announce that the call is being recorded, they will not listen to you at all.

    The law needs looking into on this matter as they will even demand a fee for having a non-functional radio on the premises, the question was "do you have a radio there?" and as soon as you say yes, thats it, the invoice is in the post with a fine for past years. The fact that the radio is in bits and has never worked is irrelevant.

    They should be made to actually prove that you were listening to it. Things would be massively different then.

    They do have to do this on the balance of probabilities in the small claims court. Unfortunately most people tend to cave in when they receive threatening letters. As I've said previously I am on my sixth letter from a private car parking company threatening to take me to court.

    No stress, I've just ignored it. If the day comes when they actually do get the courage to take me to court I will make the choice as to pay it or not. Only then does it become a mildly stressful in terms of the time it consumes.

    Just because you receive a letter from a large company claiming you owe them £x it doesn't mean you actually do.
     
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    shadesofblue

    That sounds about right. Technically, providing music to another person is actually broadcasting - hence why headphone are useful, they virtually guarantee you are not broadcasting, just consuming. If it goes to court, you are in a good position, because even if they have a barrister skilled in copyright law, the judge probably won't be an expert. You really need legal opinion on your case, because costs can be crippling. It may 'only' be county court, but PPL will have a Barrister - that you can be sure of, and if you lose - it won't be cheap!


    Come on, let's stop scaremongering now. It's very rare costs are awarded against the loosing party in a small claims court.
     
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    Cobby

    Free Member
    Oct 28, 2009
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    Come on, let's stop scaremongering now. It's very rare costs are awarded against the loosing party in a small claims court.
    Like I said, pinch of salt.
    It's also very easy for the pro-PPS crowd to try and mix in a little passing-reference to the huge fines from the American courts of file sharers in the past. Completely unrelated, but helpful to their cause.
     
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    paulears

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    Jan 7, 2015
    5,656
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    Suffolk - UK
    I'm quite pleased to be called an apologist, er, I think. I really don't agree with the strong arm tactics and the methods, but without them, I doubt they'd collect very much. What I'm against is simply the attitude that rights can be set aside, if the reasons are honourable or misplaced common sense. We don't have any right to decide that other people's rights are less important than our own.

    At County Court - which is what the small claims procedure 'belongs to', costs can be applied for if the legal case is cut and dried, but my experience is that claims tend to get settled in the waiting room, then rubber stamped. For people who try to insist they didn't pay for the TV license because they don't watch BBC, and it gets silly enough to get to court, then costs are often requested and agreed - simply because the defendant admits to the deed, but tries to justify it - so in effect are pleading guilty, with extenuating circumstances.

    My view is quite simple, people's rights are forever being protected (as in the popular human one's) yet performers and composers for some reason don't deserve the same protection, and can be discounted at will - and I don't believe that is right!

    I'm fully aware other people have very different opinions, and I can even respect this opinion because it's based on what they think is the way it should be. However, it's wrong - and the law is being used because that is the fact.

    Difficult subject, and we won't get concensus.
     
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    Deleted member 59730

    My view is quite simple, people's rights are forever being protected (as in the popular human one's) yet performers and composers for some reason don't deserve the same protection, and can be discounted at will - and I don't believe that is right!

    The courts have now decided that creators rights are a basic Human Right. There is a comment here;http://www.stop43.org.uk/pages/news_and_resources_files/9f95e713e47225fa4d19f9a80ee738a2-107.php

    However, I think that music composers have a much better deal than photographers. Thanks to Google Image search I am now finding hundreds of infringing uses of my images. I found £15,000 of lost income on 2 wet Sunday afternoons. Whether any of the slippery b********s will pay is another matter.
     
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