PPL license for the radio - enforceable?

OptiRick · Aug 23, 2010

I'm sure there's a thread on this but I can't find it.

Basically someone entered our shop some time ago, said nothing and just left some details about the fact that if we play a radio we need a PPL license.

We received a couple of invoices totaling about £200 which I have ignored.

Today a jobsworth telephoned me, I told him that I don't put the radio on anymore and I have no intention of paying especially given that I only used to listen to Radio 4 (no music except for the odd sound bite to demonstrate a point) and Jeremy Vine on R2, which I listen to despite the music.

He reckoned they would take this through the courts and it would end up costing me £1000s if I didn't pay it.

So what's the verdict? Shall I cough up? I'm sure I read somewhere that they cannot enforce it.

I'm in a really bad mood now

Lease4Less · Aug 23, 2010

OptiRick said:
I'm sure there's a thread on this but I can't find it.

Basically someone entered our shop some time ago, said nothing and just left some details about the fact that if we play a radio we need a PPL license.

We received a couple of invoices totaling about £200 which I have ignored.

Today a jobsworth telephoned me, I told him that I don't put the radio on anymore and I have no intention of paying especially given that I only used to listen to Radio 4 (no music except for the odd sound bite to demonstrate a point) and Jeremy Vine on R2, which I listen to despite the music.

He reckoned they would take this through the courts and it would end up costing me £1000s if I didn't pay it.

So what's the verdict? Shall I cough up? I'm sure I read somewhere that they cannot enforce it.

I'm in a really bad mood now

Unfortunately you have admitted to listening to the radio in the past.....

OptiRick · Aug 23, 2010

Lease4Less said:
Unfortunately you have admitted to listening to the radio in the past.....

It was on when the original fella came in.

Kay at Plan 9 · Aug 23, 2010

This has happened to a hairdresser friend of mine. I pay for PRS as does she but now PPL are after her. I reckon it is a matter of time before PPL is after me too. I have yet to read anywhere a definitive answer to this question. I wrote to PRS and said I would be happier if they could prove to me that every shop in my area that played music (radio, television or tape) paid the fee. If they didn't, why should I, was my question.

PPL and PRS have taken many large companies to court. Google this subject and you will see. My answer - take the chance if you like a bit of risk, pay it if you want peace of mind.

Lease4Less · Aug 23, 2010

OptiRick said:
i

Today a jobsworth telephoned me, I told him that I don't put the radio on anymore and I have no intention of paying especially given that I only used to listen to Radio 4 (no music except for the odd sound bite to demonstrate a point) and Jeremy Vine on R2, which I listen to despite the music.

Sorry, I was referring to the telephone call (which they probably recorded). I don't think they will care that all you used to listen to was Radio 4, it is the fact that you had the radio on in a commercial property without a licence.

I'm no expert, but I would double check the legalities in this as you don't want to end up in court.

OptiRick · Aug 23, 2010

The radio was on when the original fella came into the shop.

I should add....
If I was getting any benefit from the material played then fair enough, i'd happily pay for a license, but as I say, R4 have no music, R2 tend to hammer the current Katie Perry/Lily Allen etc trash padded out with some oldies.
How do the PPL/PRS divvy up the money anyway? I would rather chew my arm off than think that a penny of my hard earned was going to most of the current artists.

IMO this organisation are just another shower of vultures trying to squeeze a few quid out of business owners.

The fella asked me how I would feel if I was an artist and I heard my material being played in shops. I responded that i'd be bloody delighted, as I would.

I also take exception to the fact that the copyright agencies can set up the PPL/PRS and bill people retrospectively, apparently we are supposed to make ourselves aware of all the ways that everyone is out to screw us.

Red720 · Aug 23, 2010

I was hassled for a while by PRS - and did a bit of research into this. I am not a lawyer - so please do not take my advice as read - it is up to you to decide what you want to do. I discovered that as PRS is a private company they would have to persue this in the civil courts. Eventually I established that the only thing they could really sue us for was breach of contract - as I had never entered into any form of contact with them -written or otherwise (and neither have you by the sounds of it), I told them that I would not pay under any circumstances unless I was directed by a court to do so. The woman became a bit abusive to me and I put the phone down. To this day I have never heard another thing from them. I still happily play the radio everyday and my stance has not changed I will not pay them a penny. They can take me to court if they like - but they wont - because if they lose it will threaten the huge revenues that they currently collect (hundreds of millions every year and rising). I do not know - but I would bet that the proportion of payout to musicians etc is miniscule.

the locksmith · Aug 23, 2010

Really not sure what the options are for you, probably worth a "free" consultation with a solicitor if you can manage it. Obviously you might have to do a bit of research to find one that is experienced in such matters.

For my thrupence worth I have on numberous occassions received letters from this crowd despite the fact that I do not have commercial premises. I ignored the first one but they then phoned and I explained the situation (which they accepted) .......Subsequently I have received a letter just about every year from them. Each time I phone them ......etc etc etc.

However the last time I spoke to them I got bit more annoyed with them and told them they should be spending the time and money for postage and paper, on the deserving artists rather than persuing a lost cause !

Haven't heard from them since.

I reckon they just trawl through yellow pages etc. and pick their victims at random.

bigmouth241 · Aug 24, 2010

In my experience (as someone who has worked in TV & Radio for the last 7 years) PRS & PPL are both as disorganised as each other, they also believe that bullying their way into your world & making huge threats will shift your stance.

Now, you'd expect me to be pro-Royalties agencies with my background, but alas, I'm the opposite. Mainly due to thier MO & the fact that the world has changed since they were created - artists can now benefit directly from the record sales via t'interweb etc. They are, in a word, defunct!

Firstly, let me be clear, unless you enter into a contract to broadcast with OfCom (I.E: you are a radio or TV station) then, as far as I'm aware there is no legal basis for PRS \ PPLs claims that you owe them a living. Once again another private company demanding money by menaces. TV Licensing do the same, although their demands are protected (only slightly) in legislation, they are a private company who enforce this "on behalf" of the BBC.

Secondly - The radio station to which you are listening has already paid a royalty to broadcast the work you are hearing - I.E: Those playing the music have already paid for it! Why should you pay again to hear it? Licensing shops & offices is a nonsense & is just PRS\PPL attempting to get double what they're actually "entitled" to. The radio station pays a percentage of its total annual revenue to PRS, MCPS & PPL - they quite happily take it too! Smaller (RSL & Community) stations pay a fixed quarterly fee of between £300 & £1500

As Red720 said, in terms of retail outlets\offices etc - PRS\PPL only have redress in a civil court & in terms of what they could bring a case for, it amounts to a breach of contract (with or without damages) case - as you never entered into a contract with them, they will have difficulty making a case. In addtion, if you say you didnt have the radio on...they say you did...where is the evidence? They have no recordings & it is your word against theirs - no judge will even entertain it.

I say, adopt the attitude to them which they adopted with you - be arrogant & ignore them!

Have fun

frostystart · Sep 2, 2010

Hi
Please allow me a moment of your valuable time to introduce you to Royalty Free Music Radio rfmradio,co,uk

Rfmradio provide quality music and entertainment using unsigned bands and artists, a legitimate alternative for businesses that require background music but dont wish to pay the exorbitant PRS and PPL license fees.

A major sandwich store is already using our services in the North West and we are confident you will be pleasantly surprised at the quality and professionalism of our station and we have many other options available at rfmradio,co,uk
Music can be provided in many different formats so no broadband is needed

Thank you for your time.

Colin and Gary Wilkinson
07590 - 549933
rfmradio,co,uk

"quality without compromise"

OptiRick · Sep 21, 2010

Well, I contacted the BBC and Radio 2 & 4 to poll their views about the treatment of their listener base.

I have pasted their response below in it's enirety,

OptiRick · Sep 21, 2010

frostystart said:
Hi
Please allow me a moment of your valuable time to introduce you to Royalty Free Music Radio rfmradio,co,uk

Rfmradio provide quality music and entertainment using unsigned bands and artists,

Hi,

I'm a tad unclear on what is on offer from RFM radio, it's a tenner per month but how much unique music is there?

kulture · Sep 21, 2010

oops wrong thread

charliethedog · Oct 15, 2010

I was getting harresd by PPL so I have been studing the 1988 copyright act for Public Broadcasting of sound recordings. !!!! Section 72(1) amended in 2003 states if a business plays sound recordings to the public to demonstrate the item playing the sound recording because its 'FOR SALE' we dont need to pay. FACT!! All you have to do is put a for sale sticker on your radio or TV in your shop and that kep you ok buy Law. I have consulted a Solicitor and he said that PPL will lose the case if it goes to court. Also I was informed py Oriel dept collections that PPL has recorded my phone call and that they now have them. PPL have broken the 1998 Privicy act laws, as I was not informed the call was being recorded and also because they have passed it to a third party.
Do you think I should take them to court? Also they denied me the 50% off the lowest rate which im intitle to if I needed it because shop unit is smaller than 50sm.

lholtaway · Oct 23, 2010

My husband and I run a small Jewellery shop and purchased a PRS licence a year ago after being hassled on many occaisions and thought that would be the end of it. Oh no! A week or so ago a representative from PPL walked in to explain I needed a licence to play music. I smugly told him that I knew that and had one with PRS! He gave me a leaflet and business card and told me that that was ok as long as I had a licence from one of them. On Friday I received an invoice for £128 to purchase a PPL licence together with another invoice for a surcharge for not having one last year of £64. I was furious and rang them to complain. The obnoxious little t**t on the end of the phone told me I needed a licence from both of them. I told him exactly what the rep said that having a licence with either was acceptable. He told me that he would never have said that so I asked if he was calling me a liar - after a pause he replied 'yes I am calling you a liar'!! If this is how they deal with customer complaints they will surely never be getting a penny out of me! However, I rang a solicitor friend of mine to ascertain the law concerning this. If you play radio and CD's you do unfortunately need both licences but if you play radio only you only need PRS. Needless to say we only ever play the radio and I will be telling PPL where to stick their invoices.

charliethedog · Oct 26, 2010

I am 100% sure that if you put a FOR SALE sign on your TV or Radio you do not have to purchase a licence from any organisation.
I know for certain that big stores like curr*s or Arg*s do not have mabey 200 TV licences....... that do not need them as their tvs, laptops ets are for sale. this also applies to PPL and PRS.

kulture · Oct 26, 2010

tell the ppl in writing. Have fun!

Regarding the "stick a for sale" comment. I would check that. The pp/prs licences are for playing music to the public. It has nothing to do with selling radios or TVs. Nor does it matter how many or how few you have. It is "worked out" on the type of business and the size of building.

Incidentally when was the last time you went into Argos and heard their radios playing???

The bigger chains now have their own "radio" service so that they can pay the recording licences more accurately (i.e. cheaper) from their play lists.

charliethedog · Oct 27, 2010

I dont comment on anything unless im sure of what I state....The PPl/PRS licesence is not just for playing music on the radio.. tv programes have music radio shows including talk only radio have jingles etc so ppl say you need a licence. Also im not saying big stores play music.... Im on about having equipment for recieving tv programes etc. READ THIS... COPYRIGHT ACT 1988......

72

52 Free public showing or playing of broadcast

(1) The showing or playing in public of a broadcast to an audience who have
not paid for admission to the place where the broadcast is to be seen or
heard does not infringe any copyright in -
(a) the broadcast;
(b) any sound recording (except so far as it is an excepted sound
recording) included in it; or
(c) any film included in it.
(1A) For the purposes of this Part an "excepted sound recording" is a sound
recording -
(a) whose author is not the author of the broadcast in which it is
included; and
(b) which is a recording of music with or without words spoken or sung.
(1B) Where by virtue of subsection (1) the copyright in a broadcast shown or
played in public is not infringed, copyright in any excepted sound recording
included in it is not infringed if the playing or showing of that broadcast in
public -
(a) forms part of the activities of an organisation that is not established or
conducted for profit; or

.

72

(b) is necessary for the purposes of -
(i) repairing equipment for the reception of broadcasts;
(ii) demonstrating that a repair to such equipment has been
carried out; or
(iii) demonstrating such equipment which is being sold or let for

hire or offered or exposed for sale or hire.
... ....... ..... My POINT HAS BEEN MADE.... Any anyway I was just trying to help all other business people who are suffering in these hard times.

kulture · Oct 27, 2010

Yes that is what the 1988 act says. Clearly if you were an electrical store you could get away with turning on a radio to demonstrate that it works. A Jewellery shop would have a harder time convincing anyone that their radio is for sale, especially when they have already purchased a PRS licence, to listen to the radio legally.

saxondale · Oct 27, 2010

lholtaway said:
My husband and I run a small Jewellery shop and purchased a PRS licence a year ago after being hassled on many occaisions and thought that would be the end of it. Oh no! A week or so ago a representative from PPL walked in to explain I needed a licence to play music. I smugly told him that I knew that and had one with PRS! He gave me a leaflet and business card and told me that that was ok as long as I had a licence from one of them. On Friday I received an invoice for £128 to purchase a PPL licence together with another invoice for a surcharge for not having one last year of £64. I was furious and rang them to complain. The obnoxious little t**t on the end of the phone told me I needed a licence from both of them. I told him exactly what the rep said that having a licence with either was acceptable. He told me that he would never have said that so I asked if he was calling me a liar - after a pause he replied 'yes I am calling you a liar'!! If this is how they deal with customer complaints they will surely never be getting a penny out of me! However, I rang a solicitor friend of mine to ascertain the law concerning this. If you play radio and CD's you do unfortunately need both licences but if you play radio only you only need PRS. Needless to say we only ever play the radio and I will be telling PPL where to stick their invoices.

you mean the person "just doing their job" then whine about how to treat people, priceless

so when can I call and pick up my free jewellry?

charliethedog · Oct 27, 2010

Yes, but in these days any shop can sell anything wihtin reason. The law is the law. Topshop/Topman for example is a clothes shop but they sell sweets at the counter.

The barber shop I go to sells Protein/creatine/aminos etc.

Everyone is trying to make more money to survive. The bully companies will do their best to get money from people by quoting the law.. Its now time we the people, do the same and look for any loophole we can, thats not wrong, to save money and stop paying unnessary payments.

kulture · Oct 27, 2010

Yes you can sell radios. As it is electrical equipment you need to adhere to the Electrical Equipment Safety Regulations 1994, and Electronic Equipment (WEEE) Regulations 2006. The PRS licence would be easier and probably cheaper. I agree with you it is nice to avoid paying unnecessary costs, but make sure your avoidance scheme does not take you from the frying pan into the fire.

charliethedog · Oct 28, 2010

Hopefull I dont end up in the frying pan.

Myself and close friend who would be well educated in law practice looked into this before we decided to post here and Electrical equipment safety regulations 1994 section 9,10, and 11 do not apply to second hand equipment. and waste reg 2006 does not apply as nothing is being disposed. So anyone who desides to put the radios/tvs for sale

should not fear. And if not well there is no harm done and we past a few mins reading this post. Good luck to all those brave enough to try it.

kulture · Oct 28, 2010

The electrical equipment regulations do apply to second hand equipment, and the WEEE regulations require all shops SELLING electrical equipment to provide facilities for their customers to dispose of the electrical equipment. Customers can do a one for one return of electrical equipment. This waste regulation is not being chased up at the moment, but it is bound to happen sooner or latter.

paulears · Oct 28, 2010

The real trouble is that most shops and offices have been aware of PRS for quite a loing time - especially hairdressers, who even have it included in the college qualification on the business aspects of the industry - but few people have heard of PPL. They are, however upping their visibility. Arguing about a single year invoice might well produce an invoice for your previous use too. In the music industry, the powers of PRS/MCPS/PPL have been clear for years, as very often the Musicians Union get involved, working for payments for their members - so all the legal stuff has already been sorted by specialist legal experts. When the big names use legal redress to get huge amounts of royalties that they are legally entitled to, you need to remember that PRS/MCPS/PPL are collection and management agencies, working for their members. So although on the surface, their attempts to get the money appear to be 'get aroundable' - in most cases they are not because the actual rights holders case has already been proven in court - remember all the contractual stuff years ago with George Michael, Elton John and others. There's really little point trying to find legal ways around it, unless you just want to hope they give up on you. The speed with which County Court Summonses can be taken out makes the potential problems with credit rating not worth it, doesn't it. It's a Civil issue, so no chance of any public funding to fight it, and costs could be huge.

For what it's worth, the reasons for PRS and PPL are because the money goes to different people. PRS are collecting royalities for the person who wrote the music, PPL are collecting for those who participated in the recording. Think back to the 60s - people like the Searchers. They didn't write some of the popular songs still being played on radio 2 today, so thy don't get anything from that, but the songwriter does. They do get royalties from PPL for their part in the recording. In many cases, the record companies are also entitled to some, as can occasionally the recording studio, depending on the contract they had. It's really a bit more complex than that, but this explains why we appear to have to pay twice. I think they know they'll never get it all, but blitzing a shopping area in a town brings in a nice big chunk - so I guess it pays off for them.

kulture · Oct 29, 2010

Yes, the idea is that the musicians and the recording companies get the money for your public use of the music. HOWEVER if you JUST play the radio you do NOT need a PPL licence. The thread was originally about a shop that played the radio. In their case they just need a PRS. They should write to the PPL and inform them that they just play the radio and do not play recorded music.

paulears · Oct 29, 2010

Sadly, playing on the radio counts - in fact, this is why radio airplay is so important to the artistes.

To quote from the PPL website

Whether you are playing the radio, CDs, TVs or using a more specialist music service provided by a PPL licensed supplier, you are required by law to have a PPL licence for playing music in public.

charliethedog · Oct 29, 2010

Lets RENT our radios/Tvs thats the way out of 2006 regulations, also if anyone rents their premises then its up to the landlord to supply electrical equipment certs, or get any an electrition(if you know one) to sign off your equipment. So yet again everyone is covered. Also there is ''The Bernie Act'' which states that anything is played on radio/TV is in the public domain and no licence is needed to hear it...... Also if you want to go down this road and your case goes to court ask that your case is heard in a native lanuage like 'Scottish Galaic' 'Wales' Irish Celtic' for example. this will buy you many more years..... and at if you lose the case....... well as A WISE MAN SAID...''THEY CANT TAKE TROUSERS OFF A NAKED MAN''..... so what are they going to do sent you to jail???? I dont think so.... Look deep in the archives.. PPl/PRS etc have lost many a case!!!! ... I know!! FACT! We beat them.

charliethedog · Oct 29, 2010

Heres a thought

Lets charge the artists for advertising them in our shops etc.

paulears · Oct 29, 2010

The Berne Act is great - IF you live in America. In England, Scotland and Wales, there is no equivalent. We are legislated by the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act.

If you are what is now called "a consumer" of music, or cause the music to "be consumed" then in realty, tough! They have got it stitched up.

The Americans also have all sorts of rights for using 'bits' of a whole thing, and again we have no equivalent.

martinlondoninn · Nov 3, 2010

my business has been fined by ppl for playing recorded music in our restaurant. This music is without exception traditional Thai classical / folk music , the recordings of which were purchased in Thailand . I cannot believe that any fraction of a fee might ever reach the publishers , let alone the performing artists , not to mention the songwriters/ composers. Does anyone know whether there are any exemptions in cases of this sort . just as a rider, the fine purtains to a period before they made me aware of their existence, since when i have played no music.Six months and some later this bill arrives . Such shameless parasitism beggars belief almost as much as the fact that it is so widely tolerated .

kulture · Nov 3, 2010

There are two arguments here. First the principal of paying artists if you use their music. Hard to argue against that. Then it is the way in which PRS and PPL pay artists and whether its fair and/or the actual artists get their fee. Unless you are prepared to supply them with a detailed play list with dates, times, artists etc etc then they cannot pay the correct amount to each artist. They have to use some kind of formula. I have no idea what this formula is , and I suggest it is the artists' problem not yours.

Alas, pay up.

Deleted member 59730 · Nov 3, 2010

martinlondoninn said:
my business has been fined by ppl for playing recorded music in our restaurant. This music is without exception traditional Thai classical / folk music , the recordings of which were purchased in Thailand . I cannot believe that any fraction of a fee might ever reach the publishers , let alone the performing artists , not to mention the songwriters/ composers. Does anyone know whether there are any exemptions in cases of this sort . just as a rider, the fine purtains to a period before they made me aware of their existence, since when i have played no music.Six months and some later this bill arrives . Such shameless parasitism beggars belief almost as much as the fact that it is so widely tolerated .

Do any of your customers ever sing Happy Birthday?

Do not be too sure that foreign composers do not get their share. The family of August Musarurwa still get their share of PRS royalties.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_Musarurwa

martinlondoninn · Nov 3, 2010

in fact this is simple , as no radio was used, only a half dozen CDs . As a matter of principle i should happily send the same sum demanded by PLS to the artists or their agents.Given that PLS is a creature of the UK it must have some market share / sales based ratio for dividing income. Can music produced and sold on the other side of the world have any appreciable share? Nonetheless it is exclusively these artists whose work i have used. consequently to pay the PLS is like paying the butcher for bread supplied by the baker.
I have no illusions about the the balance of power in this situation and consequently expect neither equity nor reason from our legal system. This does not mean it should be meekly kowtowed to . i am simply seeking advice fromn anyone who has gone before . Ie playing music by artists who will clearly recieve nothing from PLS on account of their being part of an alien market. Are there precedents in such cases ?
In the medium term i shall remain music free, and in the long term negotiate documented royalty free recordings from jobbing musicians.

paulears · Nov 3, 2010

Sure, it seems harsh, but how about you feed people in your restaurant on the premise that after a couple of days, they would then pay you? To be honest, that's obviously a bit silly - but for the people who did the work, it's kind of similar. They get a few quid for a session with the promise that if it becomes popular, then they'll get a percentage. PPL are just an agency, who their members join voluntarily to try to get some of the royalties they are entitled to. Obviously, PPL take a cut of this, but how else would anybody actually track it down themselves. In fact, a few people do opt out and try to do it themselves when they have a very niche product that they can control - but for most, PPL and PRS benefit them.

Some of the money collected does not reach the artistes - PRS have funds that they cannot attribute, and they hold them until the composer surfaces. The system isn't foolproof, and is biased towards the 'names', simply because it's impossible to collect individual data apart from the big boys - BBC, the independent radio and tv stations and other big users. The local hairdresser might well play his/her own cd collection, and the odd uncommon track won't get counted. However, PRS do update their 'common' listings from visits to different kinds of establishment - when they note down what's being played.

When you join PRS as a composer (a producer of music) then you give them the details of all your music. When you join PPL you have two choices - UK only, which is contractually quite simple, or you give them rights to administer on your behalf in all territories - as in everywhere they have the legal right to do so. The contract for this is a little more complex, requiring witnesses - which the UK only one doesn't.

The upshot is that you appoint these people to work on your behalf, and virtually all composers or performers think it's a good deal because without them, they'd get nothing at all!

The consumers of music always complain, and I understand this - but it's in the same book in my opinion as getting cross because you only watch ITV yet have to have a license that produces money for the BBC.

The basic premise is that the people who create the music you use have to be paid. The collection system that enables this is not perhaps the best, but it's the only one the creators and performers have.

If people don't wish to pay for their music, this seems odd when we consider we don't have a problem with settling up for other consumable items we use in the course of our business.

martinlondoninn · Nov 3, 2010

as my last comment on this subject - your wiki reference notes that this Mr Musarurwa had released records in the US . Those have been using have not had such a release. Possibly the same songs played by others - being classical the composeres are historical , when known , or are a folk tradition , in which case the whole concept of property rights becomes a moot point.
anyway thanks for your comment . If i am finally forced to pay it will be some consolation that the responsible artists might at least recieve an infinitissimal fraction of the sum . When i again play music it will be with the clear and direct mandate of the artists responsible and beyond any claim of these middlemen

paulears · Nov 3, 2010

The middlemen are there because without them, very few rights holders would have any way whatsoever to get what they are entitled to.

However, the PRS scheme does not have to be enforced automatically. Composers can withdraw their property from PRS control and do it themselves if they wish, clause 7F being the one that deals with this. It's quite common when a song suddenly becomes very popular - such as those that might be written in to popular West End and Broadway shows. The composer figures that they'd actually like individual applications to use them, and can charge whatever they think they can get away with. Dealing with record companies and agents is a real pain - some will charge you no matter what - and it's calculated by the second if you do it this way - so Radio 2 using just 15 seconds of a 7F'd song can still be amazingly expensive. You also face a straight forward refusal. Imagine a very dedicated Vegetarian/Vegan being asked to license music played in a butchers shop - you'd get a big NON!

What you seem to be missing the point on is that the 'middlemen' as you call them are (to the composers and performers) a very useful tool and I don't know anyone who thinks they could do better themselves.

Why do people use a debt collection agency when they could be out knocking on doors themselves? Same reason. More effective and not a pleasant job!

On the composers historical front - the actual composition is protected for 70 years after the composers death, but don't forget that many compositions, especially older ones are also arranged by somebody, and these people too have their work protected. Nobody said it isn't complicated, but until copyright law is changed, we have what we have!

I have plenty of material out there that has not earned me a penny in royalties, even though I know it's being used - so by rights, you'd assume I'd be using your arguments as I could benefit - but it doesn't work this way, and I'm not worried by being ripped off by middlemen - one day, something will kick in and these almost forgotten bits of work will suddenly pay their way.

Royalty-Free-Music · Nov 4, 2010

What a nightmare!

Well, as you can see from my account name I might have some views on all of this.

If you play someone's music i.e. someone owns it, you are liable to pay for that use if it is in any other use other than for personal use.

The performing rights societies across the world are (mostly) monopolies, hence, they see no competition, and so are arrogant in nature unfortunately. In the US I have heard of stories of shops being confronted with an almost 'mafia' style aggression. So, legally, they represent THEIR artists legally, their approach and the whole music copyright system is now a dinosaur.

These guys are the real dinosaurs of the music industry, worse than record labels who are at least trying to change rather than feeling threatened when competition begins to appear over the horizon.

So, rant over. Some suggestions:

Find a friendly artist who has music available that is not registered to PRS, or wavered from performing rights for a specific channel to market.

This means the artist has chosen not to use PRS to collect performing royalties for them.

PRS registration is not compulsory for artists wanting to make money from their music used in public environments.

I had heard of a store who had an album from an artist that was not signed to PRS and they played the same album constantly for the year. I would imagine that would drive the staff nuts but thats just my opinion, I've not heard the album.

The other way is to find a source of royalty free music. I am one of a few but there are others internationally.

Today I supply spas in the USA and Hotels in Europe with music royalty free. There are no additional performing royalties to pay, so you get the music sourced and in collections of styles plus the license to use in a business for less than it would cost if you sourced your own AND had to pay the national performing rights society.

Its complicated, overly perhaps, but there are choices you can make. Welcome to the new music business !

I hope this helps.

KateCB · Nov 6, 2010

I think it silly that to play BBC radio 2, that is partly funded by my TV licence fee anyway, I have to pay again.....AND if I buy a CD and play it in my office and another person walks in, then I am 'broadcasting' and have to pay AGAIN....what if I own the CD jointly with the other person, we have both already paid for it, it is ours, so we are not technically 'broadcasting' are we?

paulears · Nov 6, 2010

In some info from a record company recently, it was confirmed that a teacher playing music from spotify to a group of kids in class, to let them hear some older music was indeed broadcasting, and therefore not allowed.

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