Do we really need all of these graduates ?

Plastics Dave · Mar 6, 2006

I was reading a complaint from a graduate on another thread and thought instead of using this as a reply to him I would use it to start a debate on the subject.
I have no qualifications not even an O Level. I have had no formal training other than 6 months in a Government Training Centre as a lathe turner nearly 30 years ago. I am a good engineering machinist with my own company that has done fairly well for the last 15 years, everything I have learnt that enables me to do this job is because of experience. You cannot teach engineering from a book. I also have to do the book keeping, the payroll, the selling..etc etc everything any other small businessman has to do...without fancy degrees in irrelevent subjects....
Pretty soon the country is going to be full up with graduates, clever highly educated people without jobs. As manufacturing declines the knock on effects throughout the country in all support industries will simply make the situation worse. you cannot have a country full of service industries without a manufactured product to bring the money in then pay levels will simply come down to the lowest common denominator for most of them and they will be no better off financially than a shelf stacker in Tescoes. Why oh why this blind concentration on overeducating people who have no future to use that education.
It is a fact that a major Japanese car company in the UK does not take on graduates for the long term chance to rise to the higher levels of the company, they are OK for R&D but no good for management ( sorry it is a generality) but this is becoming a national policy with bigger companies
In my area, Stroud in Gloucestershire, the local college stopped an engineering course mid term...they are advertising drama and performing arts with fancy certificates, what good is that from a college ??
Our manufacturing base is dissapearing abroad, not entirely because we cannot compete a lot of the problems come from the fact there is a declining skills base, costs become higher employing people who have certificates in this that and the other and no manual skills...must finish now have to go to a meeting, we are trying to set up an apprentice college in this area, all of the major engineering employers are involved because we all recognise this issue, big business and small.
Regards to you all.
Dave

YEM · Mar 6, 2006

Plastics Dave said:
I have no qualifications not even an O Level. I have had no formal training other than 6 months in a Government Training Centre as a lathe turner nearly 30 years ago. I am a good engineering machinist with my own company that has done fairly well for the last 15 years, everything I have learnt that enables me to do this job is because of experience. You cannot teach engineering from a book. I also have to do the book keeping, the payroll, the selling..etc etc everything any other small businessman has to do...without fancy degrees in irrelevent subjects....Dave

Hi Dave, I agree with you in some areas but not in others. Good for you that you have trained yourself and I agree that most things do not require going to university reading books and attending seminars - but what about keeping up-to-date with changes to the industry - what about learning about the history of your chosen industry?

Plastics Dave said:
Pretty soon the country is going to be full up with graduates, clever highly educated people without jobs.Dave

Also agree with you - I spent three years slogging my guts out and although it paid off - I graduated two years ago with a 2:1 with honours and graduated 2nd in my class - I don't work in the field in which I did my degree. I did a joint degree in Tourise & Leisure AND Management, so although the management side does come in handy, It took me around 18 months to get a job in the industry (I didn't want to work in a travel agency) and I have only spent a total of 12 weeks working in the tourism industry. Although I don't work in the industry I wanted to, I wouldn't change the fact that I learnt about that particular industry. It enables me to be a lot more patient with regards to traveling/holidays/leisure breaks etc, because I can understand what goes on behind the scenes.

Part of what I am doing now, I believe, is helped by the fact that my course was tailored to what I wanted to study mixed in with essential personal development skills (such as being able to make presentations for example.)

Plastics Dave said:
pay levels will simply come down to the lowest common denominator for most of them and they will be no better off financially than a shelf stacker in Tescoes. Why oh why this blind concentration on overeducating people who have no future to use that education.Dave

Again I agree with you - the said job I had was extremely underpaid compared to the national average. Before my job search, I undertook a salary checker, both at Uni and independently and it came out that a graduate with my degree with a 2:1 should walk into a job earning £18 - £25k starting salary - my job and the majority of jobs in the sector start at £12k p/a - so perhaps working at Tesco would earn more money!

Plastics Dave said:
they are OK for R&D but no good for management ( sorry it is a generality) but this is becoming a national policy with bigger companiesDave

Although a generality, no-one said that a degree automatically makes you a good manager, or enables you to become a good manager. All degrees are different and if the degree doesn't have aspects of management, or business in it, why would you expect them to be good at management?

Plastics Dave said:
In my area, Stroud in Gloucestershire, the local college stopped an engineering course mid term...they are advertising drama and performing arts with fancy certificates, what good is that from a college ??Dave

Most likely demand - as you mentioned, the engineering is decreasing and colleges/universites tend to have courses that cater for demand - just like in business I suppose. However I do agree that there are too many irrelevant degrees out there and there is too much of a focus on getting everyone into uni

In my opinion, this devalues a degree and as my own experiences show, there are too many people applying for the same jobs - unless you have a 1st or a 2:1 you are unlikely to even be interviewed and if you're up against someone who has continued with their studies and got a Masters or higher, you probably don't even have a chance.

I'm all for keeping kids in school and college but I agree that people should not be pushed into going to uni - there are loads of opportunites for kids to do apprenticeships and the like and I think the Govt are focussing on the wrong areas.

Lucy

refreshious · Mar 6, 2006

Are you just basing this on engineering graduates or all graduates?

As Ivan Massow puts it. The government has this sausage machine that churns out employees to work in banking, insurance, law, health etc...

multilingual · Mar 6, 2006

There is nothing wrong with a good education, but there is no substitute for experience.

For our particular business, we need people with a high level degree in linguistics, together with experience of working within a specific industry field.

Having a deep understanding of a foreign language is not something you can pick up without study, but being completely comfortable translating technical legal contracts is something you learn how to do through experience.

Generally, a 22 yr old graduate will not necessarily end up with a better carreer than a 22 yr old with no qualifications. But the graduate does have a head start. After that it is down to application.

The cream will always rise to the top, but I would say that you need a balance between theory and practice.

There are plenty of examples of uneducated people rising to the top. However, there are far more examples of graduates with excellent qualifications who gets to the top as well, it's just that they don't make quite such good stories.

No decent parent would ever tell their kids that education is a waste of time, so there must be some merit in it.

JB

Richard Conyard · Mar 6, 2006

Having got my degree nearly 10 years ago and now being in a position of employing people I guess I have seen both sides of this.

Firstly, I don't believe all universities are equal when it comes to teaching certain courses. This is not a trad vs red brick vs ex-poly's argument. It's just that some uni's are really pants at some courses. If a CV arrived and the person came from a couple of different establishments their proud degree mark would count as a negative against them rather than a plus.

Secondly, of those universities that remain how they teach people isn't always the best. I know money isn't everything, but take my field for example. If you are good after a number of years experience you can reasonably expect to take home more than 3 times what a lecturer makes in a year. Those that can do, etc. I'm not saying everything is rubbish, but with graduates quite often the first step is to get them to unlearn bad / unfeasible practices before you can train them up.

Before it sounds as if I am being too negative on the whole uni experience I do find that people who have been and joined in the experience (an important thing there), do tend to be a little more rounded as individuals.

As I have mentioned previously in other threads, employment is far more about the individual in my field than about the qualifications attained.

amcphillips · Mar 6, 2006

As I'm about to graduate I agree that there are way too many graduates. I'm on for a good 2:1 but I'm struggling to even get interviews.

You do mention one thing that I'm sick of hearing though. Manufacturing is moving blah blah blah. And? Who cares? If someone in China is prepared to work for a week for the equivalent of your hourly rate what do you expect. If you're happy to earn £10 a week or whatever then contact some companies they'd be happy to keep manufacturing here if they could afford to.

directmarketingadvice · Mar 6, 2006

When I worked in the IT division of a large company, my department had a policy that we'd only hire graduates, but never IT graduates.

The reason why we wouldn't take IT graduates is that they had so many bad programming habits, but thought they were hot stuff and knew it all (because they had a piece of paper that said so).

It was quicker to take someone who our tests showed had the right thinking style to be a good programmer, but was a blank slate.

Steve

refreshious · Mar 6, 2006

amcphillips said:
If you're happy to earn £10 a week or whatever then contact some companies they'd be happy to keep manufacturing here if they could afford to.

£10 is worth a lot more in China than in the UK.

YEM · Mar 6, 2006

SteveGibson said:
The reason why we wouldn't take IT graduates is that they had so many bad programming habits, but thought they were hot stuff and knew it all (because they had a piece of paper that said so).

This is similar to what we have experienced. We took on a junior designer in October and although we weren't short of applications for the job, the majority were educated to degree level but knew nothing about the industry.

We found that the applicants had very good design skills, and the portfolios we saw were great however, the graphic design degree (and we found this was the same regardless of the uni) tailored students to go into large marketing agencies where they would have months to work on a project. The projects that we have are turned around within weeks depending on the brief and with YEM, turnaround for some stuff is a day! We also found that they were not taught about print (hello - major part of design/print services) and the uni's did not teach basic industry standard software, and instead chose to teach software that was not used as standard!!!

Back on the whole debate of degrees - the MD of Redwelly does not have a degree and is educated to HND level. He spent 5 years working in the industry before starting up the company. He always says that if he had continued his education and gone to uni, he would not know half of the stuff he knows now. It all depends on your sector, I think, as to whether a degree actually means anything!

Jon123 · Mar 6, 2006

I personally think uni is a waste of time for most subjects, and that colleges and goverment are putting to much pressure on students to go.
At the moment i am still in college and dont really like as the stuff im being taught is either very basic or the teacher has a real lack of understanding. 1 of my teachers has only done a year teacher training course to be teaching us no experience in the field he told us he sold insurance before he started working at 30 in college.
We need to be taught by people with real experience and not just people who have been on teacher training courses!!!
Another business teacher told are class that ltd company accounts couldnt be accessed by the public. Well thats not true because you can buy them from companieshouse.
I guess the saying "those who can't, teach" is true.
Im 1 of 2 not going on to university in my class out of about 25 people and i have had no sort of help or guidance to what the world has to offer if i dont go to university.
The only degree i think worthwhile is medical because that is the degree you really need to practice medcine and you cant just learn that from experience. But law you could do the ILEX and that would allow you to work your way up to be a solictor or barrister and get paid while learning,
accouting you can learn form experience and work your way up.
Employers look more for experience that qualifications and that is why working your way up could be the better option than university.

I import from china and manufacturing has come to a point where the chinese can offer quality goods at extremely low prices.
yes they may pay 10 pounds a week but what is that the real equivalent to in GBP? housing,food,clothes is extremely cheap you can buy apartments in shanghai for about £25 000, so there standard of living is completely different.

Jon

YEM · Mar 6, 2006

Jon123 said:
At the moment i am still in college and dont really like as the stuff im being taught is either very basic or the teacher has a real lack of understanding.Jon

The problem with colleges and A-levels is that they have to teach what is on the curriculum. At uni, you have a lot of input into what you choose to learn. Uni's aren't bound by a national curiculum and each has it's own style, usually made up by a points system. In your first year, you may find that a lot of the stuff is useless/boring etc, but the first year doesn't form part of your final degree - it's really a taster to see whether you can cope at degree level. You will probably choose 2 modules yourself in year 1 but as you progress into your 2nd and 3rd years, you find that there are only 1 or 2 modules that are compulsory and you can make up the rest from the entire university. For example, I chose to continue my study of German at degree level in my 1st year as I had studied it at school and at A-level even though it had nothing to do with the degree I chose to do and was even in a completey different department/school from the Business School I attended.

Jon123 said:
The only degree i think worthwhile is medical because that is the degree you really need to practice medcine and you cant just learn that from experience. But law you could do the ILEX and that would allow you to work your way up to be a solictor or barrister and get paid while learning,accouting you can learn form experience and work your way up. Employers look more for experience that qualifications and that is why working your way up could be the better option than university.Jon

Depending on what industry you work in, you will find that some companies do want to see a degree regardless of the number of years experience you have. During application processes, if the job spec stated degree and you don't have one, chance are it will get chucked out at the cv screening phase for some positions.

It's catch 22 for many industries really, but I don't agree that the only worthwile degree is a medical one. I think that my degree was worthwile and although I had ups and downs throughout my 3 years, I think I would still do it again for the whole experience. I like the fact that I have a degree and I loved doing my dissertation during my final year. I gained a hell of a lot of knowledge during my uni years and definately would not be able to do what I do as good as I do, without that experience

Plastics Dave · Mar 6, 2006

Some great response here apart from the blah blah about production going abroad where the point was entirely missed..
If there is no production, no income generating business then there will be no money to pay for the trivial courses being offered. History is merely repeating itself but it requires people with experience to see this.. I recall when made in Japan meant an cheap inferior product, those days are long gone and you can now buy japanese with confidence...but...the price of the goods you now buy are at european market levels..why because that is the value of the product, that is what it costs to produce now that incomes and standards in Japan are all on a the same playing fields as ours are. This is what will happen with the Chinese imports, some of it is inferior, yes there are companies set up to repair chinese imports but eventually the quality will be as European / Japanese / American etc because the machinery to make these "parts" will need replacing to sustain the volumes and quality machinery is expensive putting up overheads etc...and so will the prices be because those making the goods will become aware of the value and want more of the proceeds for themselves, they will want higher standards of living etc etc etc and a balance will be reestablished.
The quality manufacturers are still here, those making world renowned products, the Japanese own companies here..it is not because we acnnot compete or because we are inferior.
No..we are no good at mass production because we cannot work for as low a wage as other countries but we can still make the machinery used for the mass production to a quality that only the major players can achieve or at least we could while we still had a manufacturing base...which I think brings me full circle..
Yes I am passionate about it but I repeat...if there is no product to generate income where does the money come from to spend on shops, hairdressers, NEW FENCING !! to pay lawyers or simply to generate a tax revenue to keep the counrtry going etc etc.
Regards
Dave
ps; I wish I had a degree then people might actually listen to me.

WakingDragon · Mar 6, 2006

If you are talking specifically about the current target-led approach for X% of pupils becoming graduates per year then obviously this is going to cause problems and distortions.

Training, skills, personal development, etc., however, are vital to an economy. The thing I have noticed most in the 6 years I have been running my own company is the widening gap between my the on-the-job skills and training available to friends in big companies and the limited personal development available to employees in my company (because it is smaller). We regularly buy relevant and interesting reference and training books and pay for courses where we see the most potential benefit though, and these bring direct improvements in productivity to me and my staff. Furthermore, it allows our company to adapt to change - that is vital especially for manufacturing companies.

Dave's comment about not being able to have an economy "without a manufactured product to bring the money" is simply untrue. Services are products that can be bought and sold like any other and an economy can run without manufacturing by selling its services and buying in manufactures. The belief that you need a physical "widget" to generate wealth is outdated and mythical at best.

The fastest growth in the UK is in services and that is where we have a comparative advantage vs many other countries. Our creative industries are extremely strong and should be encouraged. I am no lover of opera or modern dance, but if that is where our economy can generate more value then it is better to put more resources into that than making pots inefficiently.

I think that concern over the relative wages of shelf-stackers vs graduates is misplaced. If shelf-stackers are in high demand then their wages should rise. Conversely, if graduates are not in demand then their wages should fall. Shelf-stackers are required by society as much as business graduates. The fact that it requires less skills makes it unlikely that they will be paid the same, but there is nothing wrong with the scenario: more people will switch to being stackers than graduates when that happens.

Cornish Steve · Mar 6, 2006

As someone with three degrees (BSc first class honours and PhD in physics; MBA), I could hardly pass in this debate.

I rue the fact that I was never given any guidance about the real world at school or university. I drifted from subject to subject based on personal interest or how much I enjoyed a particular teacher. That's no way to run an education system! I was just lucky to end up working for some prestigious companies. Personally, I would make it compulsory for high school students to take a course on business & entrepreneurism and to be given extensive career guidance from local industry leaders.

The content of my two physics degrees did not really help me to find a job; however, the method was crucial. I learned a way of thinking rigorously that has been priceless. Also, I taught myself to program, and that has served me well too. While it's OK to take some vocational subjects, we should guide our student population to subjects that are useful. Maybe companies should be given a tax incentive to offer full scholarships to students in some engineering subjects.

Let's not write off other subjects either. One of the most important aspects of business is communication. Drama graduates are likely to make very good presenters and marketeers. Foreign language students help us to overcome our language weakness when dealing with other countries (although let's focus more on Chinese and Spanish and less on French and German).

As for my MBA, it was tough to go back to school after 20 years. It was also tough to obtain a degree while working full-time and travelling the world. I resolved to do it, however, and I'm glad that I did. While I understood much of the course work, it filled in lots of gaps - most of which I was unaware of. It filled me with entrepreneurial spirit, plus I met and worked with my business partner during that program (a fantastic proving ground for us both).

I received a superb education from British universities, something for which I am most grateful. When I see how much I pay now for my children's education in the US (about 14,000 pounds a year, after tax, and I have six children!), I realise how much of a benefit I received. I only wish the system was geared up to encourage students and industry to get the most from the system.

amcphillips · Mar 6, 2006

My post about manufacturing did not miss the point. As an economics student it is accepted theory that you do not need to physically produce something to create wealth. Countries will specialise in certain areas and trade other goods. We happen to be good in finance, creative industries etc so these sectors are booming and employment moves into these sectors.

£10 a week may be worth more in China but that makes no difference to the British company who will be paying their waged. £10 a week to a Chinese worker may have the purchasing power of £200 a week here. But to the company paying the wages its £10 vs £200.

I do however believe that a target of 50% of people going into higher education is ridiculous. We now have a situation where mechanics charge an hourly rate similar to that of lawyers and barrister (see latest issue of Which? magazine)

YEM · Mar 6, 2006

amcphillips said:
I do however believe that a target of 50% of people going into higher education is ridiculous. We now have a situation where mechanics charge an hourly rate similar to that of lawyers and barrister (see latest issue of Which? magazine)

And plumbers are beginning to charge ridiculous rates becasue there is a low number of them and lets not talk about Thatchers - anyone have a thatched roof here? And how much do you pay for your roof to be maintained????

Another real bug-bearer of mine is the fact that schools do not encourage kids to take up apprenticeships if they are very academic. At my school, during my GCSE's the thought of me doing an apprentice was never brought up, because I was academc. The only option available to me was to do my A-levels, which I absolutely hated, I would of much preferred to do a BTEC and then onto uni, rather than spend 2 years studying hard A-levels, having a miserable time and then getting really crappy grades at the end of it. (I failed 2 of my A-levels)

And my younger brother who is also quite academic, was discouraged from applying for an apprenticeship even though ever since he could pick things up, he has always waned to be a joiner (carpenter for you southeners). Luckily for him, he didn't listen and is now just coming to the end of his first year as an apprentice - perhaps he's stronger minded than me!

I really think that schools are more interested in league tables rather than their pupils futures

refreshious · Mar 6, 2006

amcphillips said:
£10 a week may be worth more in China but that makes no difference to the British company who will be paying their waged. £10 a week to a Chinese worker may have the purchasing power of £200 a week here. But to the company paying the wages its £10 vs £200.

Please do not state the obivious here, I think everyone on here already knows that.

amcphillips · Mar 6, 2006

Not according to one of the previous posts they don't!

BlackBerryUK · Mar 6, 2006

Hiya,

I studied computer science at university for 4 years and I did learn a lot from it. At the same time, i got involved in a lot of part time, volountary and summer placement work to enhance my skills in other areas like Marketing, Sales, office work, website design and more..

so really when students do work and study it does pay off.. if I was to work and not study my knowledge would not have been to this level. I might be an expert in one area but I wouldnt know the same amount of info that I do now.

YEM · Mar 6, 2006

BlackBerryUK said:
so really when students do work and study it does pay off.. if I was to work and not study my knowledge would not have been to this level. I might be an expert in one area but I wouldnt know the same amount of info that I do now.

Of course, experience counts for a hell of a lot, you can't possibly learn everything at uni, but I don't think a degree is all that bad. It's the government, they have gone completely mad and as I mentioned earlier, they are not working for the best interests of the people, but for how they look to outsiders

Mar 6, 2006

From a construction industry perspective the number of trades that are crying out for apprentices is astonishing. There are not enough plumbers, bricklayers, electricians, joiners, blacksmiths or plasterers for example. The simple fact is that kids see the easy way out as doing an I.T. degree or Psychology or Sociology. These degrees are either useless in relation to what the 'business' world is crying out for or the particular field are completely saturated.

Given the choice of laying bricks in the cold or sitting at a pc all day, most kids would opt for the pc. :? :?

Plastics Dave · Mar 6, 2006

"""Dave's comment about not being able to have an economy "without a manufactured product to bring the money" is simply untrue. Services are products that can be bought and sold like any other and an economy can run without manufacturing by selling its services and buying in manufactures. The belief that you need a physical "widget" to generate wealth is outdated and mythical at best. """

Sorry I cannot agree with you, and now neither can this government who have been spouting the above for 10 years, they at last are doing something about it with their plans on 14 to 19 Yr old Voacational training.
I don't doubt services can be traded but in the global market place the only services traded from country to country ( and you need to this to support a balance of payments) are those requiring the talents of the well educated.
Some of us and I am one of them, cannot pass exams, that does not mean that we are stupid and only fit for cleaning the streets, it does mean that we are not going to be employed in international tradeable services so what is left, the dole queue?
Let us make widgets, believe it or not I sell machined plastics to China, France, Spain and America because I have a good engineering company, there are thousands more like me throughout the UK but those hell bent on overeducating people who only want to be plumbers or mechanics or woodsmiths just will not accept this...sorry education is a good thing for some but it is not the most important thing for others.
I will always give preference when employing ,to the guy who turns up on the motorcycle he has rebuilt than the graduate who cannot communicate between his head and his hands.
Sorry I am not picking on graduates, I wish I were one of them but the situation in this country in terms of sustainable employment is a serious matter and i am involved in meetings on these issues on a weekly basis so in sounding out this forum I have indeed learnt something and I thank you all for your input, I knew I was throwing the cat amongst the pidgeons with this one so nothing personal ok..
Regards
Dave

WakingDragon · Mar 6, 2006

I enjoy the debate, so I hope nobody thinks I am being aggressive

@Dave...

It is unjust to say you (or anyone else) is stupid because you haven't passed exams. As the world economy becomes more open it will increasingly be the case that wages are determined by the global supply and demand for skills (in the broadest sense of the word). What the current government seems to be realising (albeit belatedly) is that training and skills are what will help individuals compete in that global market. Their approach of insisting on graduation targets is almost universally considered daft, but the sentiment behind it is well-placed.

The problem is not that we are desparately short of graduates now, but that the government feels a higher number of graduates will leave the working population more able to adapt to the structural change in our economy over the next 10 years.

In a way, Dave, you are doing something similar. You are changing your skills because you have to in order to run a business. If your market starts shrinking then you will need to adapt and it is possible that you will need to retrain/restructure your workforce in order to do so. By creating a larger pool of "knowledge workers", for example, the government is doing this so as to encourage those industries where the UK has a comparative advantage. Secondary manufacturing will probably continue to decline in the UK, but specialist manufacturers like your company will probably benefit. Your company holds a great deal of skill and knowledge (otherwise your competitors in China would have copied the techniques and would not buy from you) - that is basically what you are selling. Your plant could be located in Grays or Guangzhou but the skills that run it are what make it successful.

BlackBerryUK · Mar 6, 2006

I can't see the harm in studying something you enjoy. some people enjoy outdoor jobs and others enjoy office based jobs. You can't really expect every body to have the same taste and same level of ambition and same determination.

Thats the bueaty about it all.. some people seek certification as a way to prove they are specialist in the field. I also think, employers tend to look for people with degrees making it tougher on people without. Therfore, I am now considering doing my Masters and maybe PHD to get a better paid job.

I think sometimes it's the employer's fault!!!

what do u think?

dagr · Mar 6, 2006

One secondary aspect that is more important than most people think is social status. Many western countries, specially the UK, are caught in a social/work class conundrum: Yes, we want skilled workers (tradesmen) that come out of a vocational-oriented education system that is an equally valid alternative to degree-type paths, but, we all rant and rave about the costs of plumbers, electricians, etc., while accepting more easily bills from lawyers, consultants, etc.

I can still remember the old UK passport application form that asked you to get a signature from a "respectable" person (i.e. doctor, lawyer, etc). No mention of plumber, precision welder, etc, no matter how well-trained they were.

So, while most people in theory are for a true vocational alternative within the education system that would be on a similar footing with higher education, I bet a majority would rather prefer their children went on to get a degree.

Only Germany comes to mind as a country where skilled tradesmen are relatively well perceived in society.

YEM · Mar 6, 2006

I think the larger employers are definately to blame but it's all about beaurocracy and the like. Public sector for example have horrendous applications even for admin jobs.

I think smaller business owners are more willing to take on people with experience over degrees as many work in the same office and can really see how they are adapting to situations. Large companies expect that people with degrees are able to cope with a situation, or are really informed about a topic, but anyone can get a degree, if they have the determination to follow it through, but not everyone can cope with or deal with real life industry and real life work.

In fact, another thing that really gets me, is those people that go to university because they don't want to get a job - it's these people that are also devaluing degrees

YEM · Mar 6, 2006

dagr said:
So, while most people in theory are for a true vocational alternative within the education system that would be on a similar footing with higher education, I bet a majority would rather prefer their children went on to get a degree.

Sort of agree with you on this, although there are parents that want their kids to go into higher education I don't think it's the majority (although we all hear of pushy parents)

Take my family for example:

I (the oldest) chose to go to university and yes my parents probably wanted this for me.

My younger brother (soon to be 21) did a football scholarship straight from school at 16 and now plays semi-pro for a Northern Irish premier league team, and is also a freelance coach, coaching school children. When his scholarship ended, he was given the opportunity to go to university on another scholarship (both in the USA and in Bath) but decided Uni wasn't for him. My parents didn't mind and uni was probably the 2nd option for my brother, with his career being top - the focus has always been for him to succeed in this area. (He is probably brainier than me and could quite possibly go to uni and get a 1st without even trying)

My youngest brother (17) is well into his 1st year as an apprentice. Uni was never on the cards for him as he has always been interested in manual work as opposed to academic work, even though he could quite easily go through college and attend uni as he is bright enough to do it.

I tjhink the emphasis is not on parents wanting their kids to go to uni, but the govt/schools/colleges putting the pressure on.

On another note, the other thing about the govt, is that they are heavily promoting skills and training in the workplace but if you have a degree, you are NOT eligible to receive extra training/personal development training within the workplace on the skills scheme. They say it's important to go to uni, but once you have your degree, thats it! You are obviously (in their eyes) fully educated with nothing more to learn!

refreshious · Mar 6, 2006

amcphillips said:
Not according to one of the previous posts they don't!

Isn't it because you talked about earning, not about hiring?

If you're happy to earn £10 a week or whatever then contact some companies they'd be happy to keep manufacturing here if they could afford to.

Cornish Steve · Mar 6, 2006

BlackBerryUK said:
I think sometimes it's the employer's fault!!!

what do u think?

In one sense, it's never the employer's fault and it's never the government's fault. That's passing the buck and demonstrating dependence on others to progress your career.

On the other hand, there's much more the government and employers could be doing for employees to stimulate the economy and increase the nation's skills and business savvy.

If the two are both in place, maybe individuals will take control of their own destiny by taking advantage of appropriate training initiatives.

jklondon · Mar 6, 2006

did my degree @ the LSE - had a great time, learnt some stuff and it opened a lot of doors .. so IMHO Degrees are a good thing.

theMBA · Mar 6, 2006

It seems to me that in recent times, at each stage of the education ladder beyond the basic 3-R's, many people get to learn much more 'stuff' than they will ever need or find valuable in their occupations. The Government targets of 50% of people going to university will just make this more pronounced, and it might increase people's sense of frustration at their rate of career progress (or lack of progress). When 50% of your workforce have degrees, how many more of them are going to have to watch while their colleagues (some without degrees) climb to the top of the organisation, than was possibly the case in the past?

I think that education, in a broad sense, can add much richness to the life of the learner. What might be causing many problems is the perception of the strength of the links between education and 'career prospects'.

Plastics Dave · Mar 7, 2006

jklondon said:
did my degree @ the LSE - had a great time, learnt some stuff and it opened a lot of doors .. so IMHO Degrees are a good thing.

I have to agree with you...but not for everyone.
Moving on because part of my argument is industry and employment related, I like this topic the response is fantastic and I have one last bullet.
The argument goes that: by having a more educated workforce the quality of "things" will improve Ok fine as far as it goes.
The next argument is: By giving people better educations we will invent and develop more "things" I even agree to a certain extent on this because the funding of uni's allows for research, although I also say that far more invention and development comes from people using a " product" and finding a better way to produce it or do the job.
Antway..we see from past argument within this thread and previous government thinking that decimation of manufacturing industry is acceptable because we can market services....
So,,,these "things" that we have spent massive resources financing to invent and develop what happens to them?
Under the decimate industry argument, we must sell the idea to the highest bidder who of course will be offshore, yes the inventor will make a quick buck, Offshore Inc will produce the product and we will make them rich by buying it back, even if they set up manufacturing in the UK, most of the cost benefit / profit goes abroad. it is only employment and controlled wages that remain here....Is there a business logic for UK Ltd in there somewhere.
We need to go green,,,just about everybody now agrees...sort of.
Ok irrespective of the choice of methods, Wind, Wave, Nuclear and anything else sensible.. who is going to build the equipment to produce the green energy?
This will need graduate engineers to design it ( yes we do need them !! ) and hands on wheel turners and button pushers like me to produce it.
So...DO WE REALLY NEED ALL OF THESE GRADUATES and not more manual workers?
Yes it applies to Plumbers, Builders, Thatchers, Welders etc but I am an engineer and understand my case.
I am done now...no new argument from me..but thanks for the pleasure of the debate, I wish we could sit around a table and do it.
Regards
Dave

WakingDragon · Mar 7, 2006

theMBA said:
I think that education, in a broad sense, can add much richness to the life of the learner. What might be causing many problems is the perception of the strength of the links between education and 'career prospects'.

Good point but these kinds of adjustments do happen over a generation.

WakingDragon · Mar 7, 2006

Dave, I think you're wrong again there. I read in the Economist last week that actually the return on R&D has been lower than the product innovation coming from marketing and sales functions! Who'd have thought it?

As to who will produce the "things"... China, Vietnam, America, whoever happens to be the best value. Lots of UK companies are setting up manufacturing ops in China. There is no need to sell the ideas when you can manufacture them yourself and import your own stuff.

WakingDragon · Mar 7, 2006

But you are not just a "hands on wheel turner and button pusher", you are a self-employed businessman. You are utilising skills far beyond the strict remit of a lathe operator (e.g. managing your employees, finances, handling outsourcing of non-core business functions, etc etc). And your meeting last night to discuss skills requirements shows you are going even further into planning for your organisation's future needs - dealing with structural change in a proactive and intelligent way.

You are a classic modern specimen of this "nation of shopkeepers" - small dynamic businesses that account for most of the UK's employment and probably innovation too.

The flip side of outsourcing is immigration. You don't need to send your manufacturing to China if you can import the skills you need from there or from E Europe or anywhere else. A highly educated population would allow the tradition of small business in the UK to continue to innovate in how it does business and import skills or outsource operations where necessary. Saying that we are not "producing" anything is misconceived because the only boundary is geographical and that is simply arbitrary historical map-drawing rather than a real barrier.

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