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Question for the SEOs

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sysops

sysops

Free Member
Feb 1, 2007
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Have you ever taken a site which is already performing reasonably well, and made it perform amazingly well?

I need someone who can do this. I've worked with many SEOs over the past few years, and one thing has become quite clear - taking a poor site and turning it into a good one is something most SEOs can do just fine. However, taking a good site and turning it into a great one seems to be something that eludes most of them.

This is a pity, because if a site is already well established, this means I have a good budget to spend on it - far more than I could spend on a new or poor site.

PMs or replies here welcome.
 
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It all depends at what stage the site is at when the SEO starts work on it.

There is a finite amount of traffic available for every product group and every targetted country.

The answer to you question is yes depending.:)

Earl
 
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sysops said:
I'm not talking about a particular site.
Click to expand...

Sysops...in fairness that is the impression you gave so can we now take it that you are talking hypothetically?...I doubt you will get taken very seriously if so so may be worth being a bit more specific about what your agenda is here.
 
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sysops said:
Have you ever taken a site which is already performing reasonably well, and made it perform amazingly well?

I need someone who can do this.
Click to expand...

Does that not confirm your on the lookout, im sure there are quite a few seos here who can assist you with making your site even better !
 
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craigc0302 said:
Does that not confirm your on the lookout
Click to expand...

I am (did I say I wasn't?). But I am not talking about a single site, so posting a single URL would not be appropriate.

I don't see what is complicated or confusing about my question.

(thanks for all the PMs, working through them)
 
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Confused of Basildon here.

Taking the general view that a SEO specialises in promoting the organic ranking of a website aren't you really looking for a specialist who can improve the effetiveness of a website that is already ranking well. Someone who knows marketing rather than just SEO, a copywriter, usability expert and whoever.

Or do you mean a site the is ranking well for an nummber of keywords and you just want to rank for a loads more keywords and not worry about which ones convert?
 
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fisicx said:
Confused of Basildon here.

Taking the general view that a SEO specialises in promoting the organic ranking of a website aren't you really looking for a specialist who can improve the effetiveness of a website that is already ranking well. Someone who knows marketing rather than just SEO, a copywriter, usability expert and whoever.

Or do you mean a site the is ranking well for an nummber of keywords and you just want to rank for a loads more keywords and not worry about which ones convert?
Click to expand...

Ah, the old conversion chestnut.

Nope, I'm not interested in conversion, I am interested in gaining more traffic through natural search.
 
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sysops said:
Ah, the old conversion chestnut.

Nope, I'm not interested in conversion, I am interested in gaining more traffic through natural search.
Click to expand...

Ah, the old natural search chestnut.

I would take more conversion any day over more natural search but just goes to show it takes all sorts ;)
 
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So you simply want to rank higher for your keywords? If I can be honest we would all be able to give you better and more relevant advice if we knew a little more about your site etc.

Sorry to be a bore lol :D
 
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When confronted with that question I'd be inclined to turn it round and ask how much effort the site owner was willing to put in to make their good site great. You can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

What makes a great site? 9/10 great content that people really want and need. Who has ultimate control of that? The subject matter expert or site owner.

It's a point of view.

d
 
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sysops said:
Have you ever taken a site which is already performing reasonably well, and made it perform amazingly well?
Click to expand...

These are the best sites to work on, IMO - with link building, for example, for a really concerted campaign in competitive areas, you already need a well established website in the first place - and these necessarily have some decent rankings already.

In which case, you then leverage the offsite work to synchronise with the on-page work, and you can absolutely clear up on both the major generic keywords, as well as the longtail.

A website performing reasonably well should be very pleasant to work with, though a good combination of on-page strategy with offpage links will likely be necessary.
 
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As others have said, it depends on the current situation the site is in, as well as how much time, effort and money the owner is prepared to put in. It's not just a case of throwing money at an SEO and expecting miracles.

The SEO can take care of site architecture, on page optimisation and link development. The site owner has a heavy influence (along with the SEO in some cases) on,

- site content
- Online/offline PR
- Advertising/branding
- Leveraging existing contacts/suppliers/associations for links

The most successful projects that I have worked on has been in conjction with a marketing minded and SEO aware site owner - I'm happy to put in the time to help people understand what they're doing and why, but it takes a willingness to learn and work hard.


What can be achieved with a decent budget, decent content strategy and a proactive owner

revd.jpg
 
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RedEvo said:
When confronted with that question I'd be inclined to turn it round and ask how much effort the site owner was willing to put in to make their good site great.
Click to expand...

None - but I am willing to pay someone to do it.
 
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paretowasright said:
I would take more conversion any day over more natural search but just goes to show it takes all sorts ;)
Click to expand...

Look buddy -

1. This is the SEO forum
2. The thread is titled "Question for the SEOs"

What makes you think you know my business better than I do?
 
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The question that is being asked by the OP is one I ask myself on a monthly basis.

OP if it is okay I will post my site so the SEOs have something to comment on?

It has been around 10 plus years ranks very well and makes money but I know it can do better:)
 
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adventurelife said:
The question that is being asked by the OP is one I ask myself on a monthly basis.

OP if it is okay I will post my site so the SEOs have something to comment on?

It has been around 10 plus years ranks very well and makes money but I know it can do better:)
Click to expand...

Go for it!

The reason I'm not posting a URL is not shyness - the question really is a general one, not about one particular site, because we run lots of sites!
 
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adventurelife said:
Yes I know , picked that up from your previous postings. I have around 15 sites but one performs the best and I am going to have another attempt at improving. Site is Rafting
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Nice domain :-)

After staff issues, SEO is my single biggest ongoing headache. A typical scenario is this:

- I contact an SEO, have a chat about potential work. I outline some targets and timescales, and ask how much they think it would cost to achieve this.

- They come back with a quote, and a definite "we can definitely achieve the targets you want".

- Six months and several thousand pounds later, we're exactly where we started with the site.

This leaves me in a very difficult position. Most of these guys are genuinely nice guys, and go into the project thinking that they will be able to deliver. But they don't, and I'm then faced with:

a. carry on paying them month after month because they are nice guys

b. try someone else

And the cycle repeats, ad infinitum.
 
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sysops said:
Nice domain :-)

After staff issues, SEO is my single biggest ongoing headache. A typical scenario is this:

- I contact an SEO, have a chat about potential work. I outline some targets and timescales, and ask how much they think it would cost to achieve this.

- They come back with a quote, and a definite "we can definitely achieve the targets you want".

- Six months and several thousand pounds later, we're exactly where we started with the site.

This leaves me in a very difficult position. Most of these guys are genuinely nice guys, and go into the project thinking that they will be able to deliver. But they don't, and I'm then faced with:

a. carry on paying them month after month because they are nice guys

b. try someone else

And the cycle repeats, ad infinitum.
Click to expand...

I take it what you describe above is with already well performing sites? Looks like a pay on results route is what you need.
 
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adventurelife said:
I take it what you describe above is with already well performing sites?
Click to expand...

It is.

adventurelife said:
Looks like a pay on results route is what you need.
Click to expand...

Very few SEOs are willing to go down this route - and I can understand why. In fact, I'll stick my neck out and say that generally the better ones are the ones least interested in pay on results.

Because of this, I'm happy to pay a fixed monthly fee - as long as we agree a target and work towards it. The problem is that this target is seldom achieved.
 
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sysops said:
Look buddy -

1. This is the SEO forum
2. The thread is titled "Question for the SEOs"

What makes you think you know my business better than I do?
Click to expand...

Firstly my name is not buddy and secondly I never said that I purely pointed out that I would go for conversion but different sites have different needs.
Thirdly I am acutely aware this is the SEO forum but just found your initial posting vague (but can now see that you wanted to keep things under wraps which is cool) as did others but it seems like you are now making headway and wish you all the best.
 
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sysops said:
It is.



Very few SEOs are willing to go down this route - and I can understand why. In fact, I'll stick my neck out and say that generally the better ones are the ones least interested in pay on results.

Because of this, I'm happy to pay a fixed monthly fee - as long as we agree a target and work towards it. The problem is that this target is seldom achieved.
Click to expand...

I know most will not go this way, I have to say I cannot understand why. I have done several company turn rounds on a paid on results basis. Of course I seen everything up front and made a judgment call on if I could pull them off or not.

I am considering a turn round at present. If I go for it , I will invest between £40-80k and the success will or failure will all be down to me. Obviously if I get it right the returns I get will be much higher than if I was just paid a fee in fact I would not do it for a fee as the return would never be worth the amount of work it takes.

Is your target just traffic or are your measuring ROI?
 
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adventurelife said:
Is your target just traffic or are your measuring ROI?
Click to expand...

For most of our sites, UK traffic is the target - the conversion rate stays fairly steady regardless of the source, as long as it's UK based.

In terms of the work involved, it's actually pretty simple:

1. Identify a set of terms to target
2. Build content pages (if not already there - they are for most)
3. Build links

It's number 3 that seems to be the hurdle for most, building enough links of sufficient quality.
 
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adventurelife said:
I know most will not go this way, I have to say I cannot understand why.
Click to expand...

There are many variables outside the control of an SEO and SEO is a slow game - black hat and schemes notwithstanding - the economics of this don't stack up, you can't live on fresh air. We don't 'never' do PFP, but we are careful about the PFP projects we do take on.

d
 
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sysops said:
They come back with a quote, and a definite "we can definitely achieve the targets you want.
Click to expand...

That's where I'm going wrong. I tell it like it is and people don't want to hear it. They want to hear people tell them things they know deep down are very unlikely to happen. There's no silver bullet with SEO (and to repeat myself - except for short lived schemes and black hat).

d
 
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RedEvo said:
There are many variables outside the control of an SEO and SEO is a slow game - black hat and schemes notwithstanding - the economics of this don't stack up, you can't live on fresh air. We don't 'never' do PFP, but we are careful about the PFP projects we do take on.

d
Click to expand...

Agree, but your last bit of the para is the most relevant " careful about the projects we do take on"

With all due respect doing a company turn round has more variables that you can shake a stick it, the odds are stacked against it working. So my checks are the same, I am careful on what I take on.

Take you point though that the economics might not stack up, no point taking the risk unless the potential return is worth it.
 
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sysops said:
For most of our sites, UK traffic is the target - the conversion rate stays fairly steady regardless of the source, as long as it's UK based.

In terms of the work involved, it's actually pretty simple:

1. Identify a set of terms to target
2. Build content pages (if not already there - they are for most)
3. Build links

It's number 3 that seems to be the hurdle for most, building enough links of sufficient quality.
Click to expand...

Seems straight forward enough, but it is the links that your correctly say is the hard one. It is getting harder each year to do so, particulary quality ones and a lot of SEO's are finding that methods they used in the past are not working anymore.

Like Redevo says though it takes time. I tend to think in terms of 12-24 months when I am doing anything these days with sites
 
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RedEvo said:
That's where I'm going wrong. I tell it like it is and people don't want to hear it. They want to hear people tell them things they know deep down are very unlikely to happen. There's no silver bullet with SEO (and to repeat myself - except for short lived schemes and black hat).

d
Click to expand...

This I can't understand.

If I said to you "here's a site, it's doing 1000 uniques a day, I want it to be doing 2000 uniques a day within 12 months" - do you answer:

1. it can't be done at any price
2. I can do it, but it will cost you X per month

I don't think there is a single site that can't generate an extra 300k uniques a year - not one.
 
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adventurelife said:
Like Redevo says though it takes time. I tend to think in terms of 12-24 months when I am doing anything these days with sites
Click to expand...

With all our sites, we're in it for the longterm. But I also think that you should be able to see results within 3-4 months. I have seen results within that kind of timescale. If you don't start seeing some results by then, I would bet that you won't by month 12.
 
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sysops said:
With all our sites, we're in it for the longterm. But I also think that you should be able to see results within 3-4 months. I have seen results within that kind of timescale. If you don't start seeing some results by then, I would be that you won't by month 12.
Click to expand...

I do a fair bit of the linkbuilding myself and I am a donkey at SEO so it takes me longer:(
 
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sysops said:
With all our sites, we're in it for the longterm. But I also think that you should be able to see results within 3-4 months. I have seen results within that kind of timescale. If you don't start seeing some results by then, I would be that you won't by month 12.
Click to expand...

I am not sure what site's you run, or how competitive your market is - however I will tell you two things if you are willing to spend a bit of cash which it seems you clearly are - you should see results within 3-4 months no problems. If you are paying out money to a company and not seeing results then they aren't doing a very good job or you are being conned.

Most SEO's won't do pay on results because often we don't end up getting paid!
 
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sysops said:
This I can't understand.

If I said to you "here's a site, it's doing 1000 uniques a day, I want it to be doing 2000 uniques a day within 12 months" - do you answer:

1. it can't be done at any price
2. I can do it, but it will cost you X per month

I don't think there is a single site that can't generate an extra 300k uniques a year - not one.
Click to expand...

No, I would answer something along the lines of.......

We need to understand the market to establish how much worthwhile traffic there is available within the scope of your offering. We need to understand how much competition there is in the market and the strength of that competition. We then need to understand which links are going to make the biggest difference to your rankings and we need to understand what we would need to do to attract links from these prized link targets.

In some niches there are very few quality link targets and the SERPs are simply the best of a bad bunch.

That would be a starting point and at that stage I wouldn't give any guarantee other than we would do everything in our power to achieve the stated goal.

The thing is as you have already stated, you'd rather hear someone say 'yeah sure we can do that 100% guaranteed' when the only way an SEO can guarantee positions and exact rankings is by using dodgy techniques that may get you to where you want, but will likely not last (not always but often). IMHO.

d
 
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RedEvo said:
No, I would answer something along the lines of.......

We need to understand the market to establish how much worthwhile traffic there is available within the scope of your offering. We need to understand how much competition there is in the market and the strength of that competition. We then need to understand which links are going to make the biggest difference to your rankings and we need to understand what we would need to do to attract links from these prized link targets.

In some niches there are very few quality link targets and the SERPs are simply the best of a bad bunch.

That would be a starting point and at that stage I wouldn't give any guarantee other than we would do everything in our power to achieve the stated goal.

The thing is as you have already stated, you'd rather hear someone say 'yeah sure we can do that 100% guaranteed' when the only way an SEO can guarantee positions and exact rankings is by using dodgy techniques that may get you to where you want, but will likely not last (not always but often). IMHO.

d
Click to expand...

Don't take this the wrong way, I do appreciate your input (and find your posts valuable and informative) - BUT:

Why does what you've said sound like an apology? Instead of accepting the fact that it is doable (which it is - it is always achievable, given the right approach and enough resources), you spend time explaining why you probably can't do it.

I'm not after guarantees - I pay the agreed fee regardless. But if we don't hit the targets which my SEO has already stated we should be able to reach, then I'd be an idiot to carry on paying - no?
 
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