calculating profit

fingers

Free Member
Oct 10, 2009
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Hey,

Just looking for a bit of assistance with calculating our 2008 profit.

We use SAGE but it was setup very poorly for us, which is making it almost impossible to calculate our 2008 profit due to issues with cost of sales etc... and many more bugs, which technically are beyond me explaining.

Anyway without going into detail i would just like your views on whether this is a reliable way of calculating our profit. I have looked at various company accounts, and the following things seem to be used to calculate profit:

1) Fixed Assets - we know the value of our fixed assets at the end of 2007, and at the close of 2008.

2) Current Assets

i) We know out closing 2007 stock value, and our closing 2008 stock value.
ii) We know our 2007 closing debtors, and our 2008 closing debtors.
iii) We know our cash in bank at the close of 2007, and at the close of 2008.

3) Creditors - We know the amount owed to creditors at the end of 2007, and the amount owed at the end of 2008.

Based on knowing all the above, is it possible to calculate our 2008 profit? To me it seems so, as i can't see what else affects it - surely all this cost of sales is irrelevant if we know the above figures?

For example:

1) Our assets increased by £10,000 from their closing level in 2007.
2) Our stock increased by £10,000 from its closing level in 2007.
3) Our debtors increased by £10,000 from their closing level in 2007.
4) Our cash in bank increased by £10,000 from its closing level in 2007.

This gives a net gain in 'total assets' as such of £40,000.

5) Our creditors increased by £10,000 giving a further liability of £10,000 above what it was at the close of 2007.

Assets (£40,000) less liabilities (£10,000) = £30,000 profit/shareholders funds?

Does this seem right to people or is my basic understanding of how profit is calculated flawed?

We have an accountant but they simply work on the fgures we give. I simply want to know based on the above figures if we really did make approx. £30,000 profit in 2008?

Any input is appreciated, as it's doing my head in!
 
If your accountant cannot explain this to you then you have the wrong accountant and should consider changing to one who can explain it to you.
 
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Hi Fingers,

You are correct in that if you know with certainty the various figures on the balance sheet (the assets, debtors, creditors as you describe), the balancing figure should be shareholders funds and the net increase in shareholder funds from year to year should be the profit.

I do agree that you need to work with an accountant that can explain things to you and also help you with setting up a reliable and useful accounting system.

A £30k profit (as in your example) is clearly a good thing, but would have known during your trading year if you were making a loss? The idea behind a useful accounting system is that it will highlight for you major issues at a point when you can do something about it.

All too often business people will have a poor internal accounting system and then present their records to an accountant a number of months after the year end passed. The accounts are prepared and perhaps a number of issues come to light. When those issues are presented to the business owner frequently the comment is "if I had known about that back in April (for example), I could have done something about it".

I think that it is like trying to drive a car to a specific destination (making lots of profit) without a having map (the budget) and no dashboard instruments to highlight problems such a low petrol/overheating etc (the accounts).

Certainly in my experience the most successful business people are those who have a firm grip on the numbers of their business and use the information this provides to better manage their business.

There are a number of very good accountants on this forum who I am sure will help you with this.

Best wishes

John
 
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I can't see how you can work backwards like this. Your balance sheet should be a cross-check to make sure that everything balances. Your "profits" could be wildly wrong using such a method.

How do you mean "value of assets" - do you mean current value - in which case that basis is wrong for both accounts and tax. Do you mean net book value, in which case you will have provided for depreciation which needs adding back for tax and capital allowances deducted instead.

You mention trade debtors and trade creditors, which is fair enough, but what about accruals and prepayments, tax provisions (PAYE & VAT), other debtors and other creditors, etc - all of which need to be provided for under the accounting standards and tax rules. (unless immaterial). Have you worked all this out and made provisions as well?

For example, if you're a limited company, how are you accounting for corporation tax, deferred tax and dividends. How are you adjusting for the differing treatments between tax and accounts for asset purchases, capital allowances, depreciation, etc.

What about disallowed expenses, such as entertaining, depreciation, etc?

There is no alternative but to prepare the accounts properly. I can't see the tax inspector accepting such a "profit" figure as a reliable source for working out profits - they'd expect to see figures for sales and expenses under the appropriate headings as per the tax return, unless your business is unincorporated and so small it falls under the "simplified" tax return system, and even then, you need to declare sales and total expenses and even such simple accounts need to be prepared under normal conventions - i.e. providing for the differences between accounts and tax treatments of various items.

I think you need to work with your accountant to get your Sage figures in some form of order so that they form a reliable record (as required by law) for the purposes of completing tax returns, and then make sure you've sorted out the problems for the future.
 
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If your accountant cannot explain this to you then you have the wrong accountant and should consider changing to one who can explain it to you.

A blunt approach but one I happen to agree with wholeheartedly.

If this guy/girl that you are paying to be your accountant has neither the people skills nor inclination to spend the time with a paying client to address his concerns or at least help him understand the figures they are producing, then it's time to move.

Oh, and with respect to all the good accountants who post here, don't take as gospel everything your accountant tells you just because they are an accountant!

They may be very good with numbers but you need one who is in tune with YOUR business and YOUR goals. If they are not, then move right along and get another. This is a lesson usually learned after a couple of false starts :-)

Accountants are paid by you to provide a service. You are their client and should be treated accordingly.

*runs off to whip his (very good) accountant*


Regards

Jon
 
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