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Are my web design skills up to scratch?

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Beachcomber

I'm thinking of starting a new venture with web design as a core aspect and would be grateful if I could get a bit of feedback from the pro's regarding my site design skills - whether they would be up to scratch when compared with the competition. I'm targeting small business / sole traders.

Please do take a look at these sites and any feedback is appreciated.

www.whitepebblebay.co.uk
www.wanderingblade.co.uk

(Mods - if it is innappropriate to post links here please delete thread)

Thanks.
 
I would suggest ditching your web app for a start unless your going for the amateur retro look. Ideally learn some basic html and css or buy dreamweaver imho. sorry if brutal but i don't think you'll get many clients with those sites.
 
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In all honesty I would say take a good bit more time to learn what you're doing.

From the visual impact and looking at the code I'd say you still have a lot to learn about web design.

It's a lot more than understanding what a few of the tags do.

But if you've built them from scratch without prior knowledge well done, you're on the right path.

If I were you I'd get reading up on HTML / CSS, download a few free XHTML templates and start to understand how they work. Get yourself a good book to learn from (ditch any HTML generator program you use) and hit http://www.w3schools.com for tutorials.
 
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cmcp said:
But if you've built them from scratch without prior knowledge well done, you're on the right path.

If I were you I'd get reading up on HTML / CSS, download a few free XHTML templates and start to understand how they work. Get yourself a good book to learn from (ditch any HTML generator program you use) and hit http://www.w3schools.com for tutorials.
Click to expand...

These were both designed using Serif Webplus 10. I've never even looked at the coding! All done using a wysiwyg system from scratch - no templates.

As for being 90's - give it another 10 years and that will be all the rage!
 
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Cool, I don't know what that is, but sack it.

If getting HTML pages to talk to each other and work online gets you hungry for more, definitely look up HTML / CSS - you'll find it very satisfying making it all work.
 
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There are two main sides to web desing IMO, design and developerment, and the look of your site in terms of design looks very homemade, the links look like flash buttons but without the flash, the pages don't have the same look (header bar changes, navigation changes), it needs alot of work. Some people are very very good at developing or very very good as design but it's hard to find someone with both.

The developing site, creating the HTML etc, agian needs a lot be desired your using image maps to do links, and what should be a very source source code, is massive in comparison, infact I think I could build that in tables and have less code. The site should be built to either your target market or the common specs, and I don't stats will show that most people have a 1440 x 900 screen size, and with your current design it should stretch to fit.

There are loads of little issues but I think you need a lot of work before this becomes your main role, the good thing is the steep learning curve when you start, and getting new things to work it always the good part, if your serious about it, there are loads of resources on the net to learn, its just a case of sitting downand building them and learning.

But I would say get someone else to do the design and do the developing if that floats your boat.

Good Luck
 
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Beachcomber said:
I'm thinking of starting a new venture with web design as a core aspect and would be grateful if I could get a bit of feedback from the pro's regarding my site design skills - whether they would be up to scratch when compared with the competition. I'm targeting small business / sole traders.

Please do take a look at these sites and any feedback is appreciated.

www.whitepebblebay.co.uk
www.wanderingblade.co.uk

(Mods - if it is innappropriate to post links here please delete thread)

Thanks.
Click to expand...

Thats fine web design has very little effect on the success of a website.

Having the right products at the right price and the right position on the search engines is what its all about.

Earl
 
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The layout of a website is only a tiny part of web design. As earl is suggesting, 90% of your work is reaserching the business model, writing the content, creating the site architecture and so on. You also need to consider how you are going to market the site as this can affect the design of the site (PPC landing pages are different to those from a poster campaign for example).

If the content is good then your visitors will forgive a wonky layout. But you do need to dig into the code if you want the site to be effective, serif adds all sorts of clunky code that you don't need.
 
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I have read this thread and am not sure if BeachComber is winding everyone up?

These sites are very circa the early 90's as people have mentioned.
If thats the look you're going for then you certinaly got it right!

No one can create or look at a page like this (http://www.wanderingblade.co.uk/page30.html) and feel like any consideration has been made about the design and separation of navigation and layout for commercial use.

On the surface using these examples to promote a new venture is probably not a good idea.

I am not a designer (which is probably obvious from looking at our website) and dont know what experience BeachComber has commercially, but if these are working sites then at least there may be some hope. I have certainly used and continue to use shops with the same level of design however confidence does start out fairly low. Customers would be more confident purchasing from a site that generally looks like other mainstream sites.
 
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put it this way..

they look like the kind of designs I come up with :-)

I gave up on webdesign almost immediately, there are some really good designers out there... worlds better than me.

I stick to what I am good at which is web development and ecommerce.
 
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Made4Print said:
I have read this thread and am not sure if BeachComber is winding everyone up?
Click to expand...

:D 'fraid not!
The missus bought me this serif all in one web design kit thingy a few xmas' ago and I thought I'd give it a go. Never was one for reading the manuals ;)

Being the kind of person who's always on the look-out for a string to add to my bow I thought I'd explore the web design thingy as an option, I mean - how hard can it be ;):p
 
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Beachcomber said:
:D 'fraid not!
The missus bought me this serif all in one web design kit thingy a few xmas' ago and I thought I'd give it a go. Never was one for reading the manuals ;)

Being the kind of person who's always on the look-out for a string to add to my bow I thought I'd explore the web design thingy as an option, I mean - how hard can it be ;):p
Click to expand...
:eek:

To do it effectively and obtain results.....extremely hard.

I studied for 5 years to gain my qualifications (developer not design) and still learn new tricks everyday in the ever evolving world of the internet.

;)
 
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As most people have said web design is a very competitive area. Being a web designer is very different to being a developer. As far as I am concerned they are completely different disciplines. It would be exceptional to find someone who truly excels at both!

I would look at more website designs and look at the styles and even try to replicate them using HTML and CSS, only then will you be able to understand the dynamics of what goes into designing a website.

Best of luck though.
 
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As I've already suggested, putting together the actual layout/template is the easy part. It's the work you do before coding that makes the difference.

To give you an idea of the complexities involved take a month or to to absorb everything here: http://webstyleguide.com/wsg3/index.html.

This still won't help you develop your HTML/CSS skills and if you want to do anything dynamic you need to dip your toe in the PHP/ASP water.

Website design isn't a sinlge skill, it invoves everything from content writing to marketing, graphic design to market research. I know very few who can manage the whole thing on their own.
 
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Hi

As a non-webdesigner and developer, just a mere potential customer my immediate thoughts are overpowering colours, too many words, not the best layout and very old fashioned. So even if you do not change the structure significantly I would still rethink the actual content.
Having said that I am not a fan of your products, so perhaps you need to find a bunch of real customers and ask them if your site appeals to them as you are seeking to attract similar people.

LOL
Wendy
 
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Are you using FrontPage? I find the Dreamweaver is more professional.

You may need a bit more practice, but everyone starts out the same - so don't worry.

Websites like Template Monster sell good templates that you could use for the design. I don't think you can charge as much for a template site, but they look very professional and may be a good idea to consider.

James.
 
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To be honest you will be hard pushed to have a successful business in web design if you don't know how to code or graphic design. Your customers will want you to give a true reflection of their business and design the site so that it converts.

An ugly design will give an unprofessional image of the company you are hired to represent, no matter what others may say. It is all about effective branding, so you could do with studying marketing and branding to see what works and what doesn't.

Without coding knowledge you will be unable to tweek the site to the customers requirement. You also need to consider cross browser compatibility, css, ssi, compliant coding and what aspects can effect the visitor experiance (ie if you have javascript links and the client has java turned off they won't be able to navigate through the site, users and search engines don't like flash websites etc)

Then you have the other areas, knowing how to market the site, knowing how to build a site so then if can be marketed effectively and safely, knowing how users naturally roam through a site so then you can build it to convert and lead the visitor in the right direction through the site.

Also you will need experiance of working with popular CMS and ecommerce scripts etc.

Unfortunatly there is a lot to learn, I have been in the biz for 8 years and still learn something new every day, I have to, to keep on my game and a step ahead. Unfortunatly it takes a lot of work to master the diciplines you need to create an effective ebusiness for someone. I started out purely in one area (seo) back when I entered this market, working white label for other companies after 6 months training and study. I only moved across to other areas as my skill and knowledge increased (although I was trying to install cgi scripts and edit design within the first week). There is no way I could have worked on a whole project from start to finish when I first started.

It is great you want to learn about website design and if you want to learn more I would suggest having a look at some websites that work and look good, noting down what it is you like about them, maybe downloading some pre-existing templates and having a look at how they are constructed. I would recommend dreamweaver for constructing a html design, editing coding, CSS etc. Go in and have a play, this is the best way to get to grips with the standard design stuff, the rest you have a lot of studying to do and it will take years not weeks to master until you are ready to set up a effective web design company.

However, if you have a business that includes webdesign as part of the the business you intend to create your time may be best spent elsewhere and you can always partner with an experianced developer/designer/marketer for the rest!

I don't want to disparage you from following your dreams, however I did want to let you know what you have instore for you, so you can have a true reflection of what lies ahead and what you need to do, should you decide to take this path.

Whatever you do, I wish you the best of luck. :)
 
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Some of the most successful websites out there pretty much adhere to no standard marketing approaches nor look very good. I remember reading an article about the most successful websites (such as Ebay & Amazon) looking awful, adhering to no traditional branding rules yet being the biggest earners on the web and turning over the most traffic. So even if you can't make a website look good, you can make it successful.

Now that being said, those websites were built in an era when even being ugly was cutting edge. You are now in an age where web designers are a commodity that we are in no short supply of & you need an edge to win business.

So, if I was to be critical I would say your websites were pretty unispiring, from an aesthetic point of view & this, in its own right is an area you could spend years learning. Furthermore, by using a package which hides all the code from you means your in no position to change anything manually should a client make such a request or ask for something bespoke. To become proficient in any one area of coding could take an age.

But ultimately, I would be looking at my site and asking myself what makes me stand out from the competition? From looking at your sites I would say not much, which means your on the back foot for actively promoting yourself as a web designer & certainly going to struggle to command any kind of livable wage from.
 
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brownie said:
I'm speechless.

Come on Beachcomber this has to be a windup? :D
Click to expand...

los_design said:
Beginning to look that way IMHO

:cool:
Click to expand...

Well no, it's a first attempt with a £20 web program.

Unfortunately I've not had the benefit of several years training, coding experience or graphic design tutorship so I am full well I may not be at the dizzying heights of your great and illustrious selves.

To those who have been able to offer constructive critisism I thank you all.
 
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bcmedia said:
But ultimately, I would be looking at my site and asking myself what makes me stand out from the competition?
Click to expand...

One of the sites competitors is this lot - I thought it compared favourably:
www.cheapjunk.com

**Warning - do not open link if sensitive to poor web design (yes - poor even by my standards!)
 
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The thing about that junk site is that it probably works commercially. It's a B2B site selling junk, to people whose sole motivation is profit.
It does what it says on the tin, or in Designer: wysiwyg.
Perhaps neither a fair comparison nor a good starting point.
 
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Apologies - I thought you were trying to set yourself up as a Web Designer, not a trader.
 
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Cool - Well here is my advice then.

Your sites don't look great, blunt truth - however you can negate this by using a few means, namely as follows:

1. You can use a pay as you go ecommerce site, ask around these forums and I'm sure you'll get some success stories. These tend to come with templates which are nice looking.
2. Use an open source package such as magneto, Joomla+Virtuemart or OSCommerce. All are free to use but there is a steep learning curve so this may not be the best option for you.
3. Stick with what you've got and get a book on SEO and start marketing the current site. I'm not going to lie and say it looks great, it doesn't, but I've bought stuff from sites that were far worse looking - its the product I want, not the sites image.

Just a few thoughts.
Regards
Craig
 
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Beachcomber said:
I may not be at the dizzying heights of your great and illustrious selves.
Click to expand...

I cannot design a website to save my life, how do you think I know that?

I compared my poor efforts with a broad range of other websites on the web put together by professional design companies. It was pretty obvious my efforts fell far short of the required standard.

The fact you had to ask if your examples where good enough in the first place astounds me, have you compared your efforts with other professionally designed sites? I say professionally because you mention starting a business hence these are the people you will be competing with.

If you want I'll edit my replies and give you false hope.
 
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Beachcomber said:
Well no, it's a first attempt with a £20 web program.

Unfortunately I've not had the benefit of several years training, coding experience or graphic design tutorship so I am full well I may not be at the dizzying heights of your great and illustrious selves.

To those who have been able to offer constructive critisism I thank you all.
Click to expand...

Don't you take no notice of all the arty farty designers.

I run some of the ugliest sites on the planet.

Which also happen to be the most successful in there field.;)

Business mans guide to successful sites.

http://www.webpagesthatsuck.com/biggest-mistakes-in-web-design-1995-2015.html

Earl
 
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brownie said:
The fact you had to ask if your examples where good enough in the first place astounds me
Click to expand...


:| The fact that I asked a group of professional, helpful, diverse and capable people for an educated opinion astounds you? Do you live in a box?

brownie said:
If you want I'll edit my replies and give you false hope.
Click to expand...

Not at all. One of the greatest things about the internet is that it empowers everyone to have their own view and share it with the world. ;)
 
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I think everybody else started out with the 90ish style of design specially those back in the days. But consider it a good start. Good things start from small beginning..Just go ahead and improve you craft. add to it some SEO design aspects as well.
 
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pwaller30 said:
I think everybody else started out with the 90ish style of design specially those back in the days. But consider it a good start. Good things start from small beginning..Just go ahead and improve you craft. add to it some SEO design aspects as well.
Click to expand...

Thanks. After the comments about the 90's look it set me thinking - Looking at my CD collection I think I may be stuck in 1989! :eek:

Part of your comment reminds me of a salesperson ages back trying hard to sell a new directory service that was just starting out.

"From small acorns giant oaks grow" he said.
The reply? "Most small acorns end up as squirrel sh*t"

His face was priceless.;)
 
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Have a look at whats out there at the moment. You will see most sites are clean, professional looking creations with lots of gloss and shine to attract the visitor.

You might wonder what the purpose of it all is, especially when your site for example does display all the relevant information that its users require?

Well your website is your shopfront. You have to dress the windows attractively to bring in the customers, and more importantly, to stop them leaving right away.

You'd never keep a shop with dirty floors, rotten shelves, stained walls, tired old displays, and expect to sell anything. To stay competitive online, your site has to be up to scratch, I'm afraid thats just the way it is.

If you're really serious about making money and you cant produce a site of adequate standard, I would suggest getting some outside help. You will see the difference it makes on visitor stats and sales immediately.
 
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