Twitter Dangers

DuaneJackson · Mar 11, 2009

I posted a few days ago about the power of Twitter as a marketing tool.

Well, here's a story on the dangers of twitter.

I posted earlier today about a site I know of that have produced a great little product linking OSCommerce to KashFlow

Do you use OSCommerce? You should check out this site: http://is.gd/mSe9

Someone I talk to on Twitter (and infact got a mention and a link in the other thread) is dahowlett.

We had the following conversaton. Now bear in mind that as far as I am aware, I'm just having an inconsequential conversation on Twitter whilst going about my day - not being interviewed, not being asked for a formal response to anything

dahowlett said:
@DuaneJackson BTW - has there been some gratuitous inflation? 15K SMB accounts in KF or total body count?

This is in reference to a claim somewhere on the site I linked to saying we have 15k customers. dahowlett is well aware of my blog post a few weeks back saying we have 2,500 paying customers.

DuaneJackson said:
@dahowlett sounds like some gratuitious inflation - not by me though!

DuaneJackson said:
@dahowlett certainly had considerably more than 20k potential punters through the door. Not all have stuck though

dahowlett said:
@DuaneJackson - which number am I supposed to parse? 15K, 20K...some other number?

DuaneJackson said:
@dahowlett whichever you like. 15k isn't my number. we have ~3k paying. >20k through the door over the years

dahowlett said:
@DuaneJackson - so in other words you have no control over your partners' ability to quote correct numbers?

DuaneJackson said:
@dahowlett Our API is public http://is.gd/hFbz - anyone can write apps for it. Doesn't make them "partners" or make us responsible 4 them

AndI thought that was the end of it.

But a little later he posts:

dahowlett said:
OK @DuaneJackson: time for a slap: http://bit.ly/FH9hQ

If you click through then you'll see a post on his blog which is what I think they call "a hatchet job"

I'm quoted out of context and made to look like I'm sayng all sorts and giving flippant answers. Obviously if I was asked for a considered response (to the actual questions posed on the blog and written next to my "responses") I would have answered properly.

To confirm the malicious intent, he later posts on Twitter:

dahowlett said:
Anyone else fancy giving a vendor a good slapping? http://bit.ly/FH9hQ

and

dahowlett said:
@DuaneJackson - to be 100% clear: much more interested in delighted users than listening to you slagging off competitors

The moral of the story? Be careful how you respond to questions on Twitter, even if they are from people you may consider to be "friendlies"

I think it's meant to be teaching me some sort of lesson about our very public 'battle' with Sage.

But this is a guy who doesn't get marketing. His response to me about one of my most popular (and deliberatley controversial) blog posts - "Why are designers not good at business" - was along the lines of "Why don't you just get a designer in and stop moaning about it?"

Luckily for me his blog is only read by people in my industry (competitors, etc) and is of no interest to my potential customers. And those that do read it are bright enough to see the post for what it is.

But it could have been worse for me if it was done by someone with a decent size readership of relevance to me

Don't say you haven't been warned!

Deleted member 27344 · Mar 11, 2009

Why are you giving out confidential company info to a complete stranger?

DuaneJackson · Mar 11, 2009

What's the confidential info? The user numbers? They're in the public domain - no secrets there

Deleted member 27344 · Mar 12, 2009

Ah. OK. Apologies then as I wasn't aware.

DuaneJackson · Mar 12, 2009

PointandStare said:
Ah. OK. Apologies then as I wasn't aware.

No probs. I'm happy for the numbers to be out there. That's what's a bit annoying about the insinuations in that blog post. I think I'm quite transparent about these things

Speaking of transparency, he doesn't say he owns 10% of a direct competitor to KashFlow called FreeAgent Central (an excellent product for freelancers/contractors btw, but look our for Crunch soon too). He occasionally mentions he owns a "tiny" piece of it - but a tenth is a big piece in my book

faststaff · Mar 12, 2009

DuaneJackson said:
No probs. I'm happy for the numbers to be out there. That's what's a bit annoying about the insinuations in that blog post. I think I'm quite transparent about these things

Speaking of transparency, he doesn't say he owns 10% of a direct competitor to KashFlow called FreeAgent Central (an excellent product for freelancers/contractors btw, but look our for Crunch soon too). He occasionally mentions he owns a "tiny" piece of it - but a tenth is a big piece in my book

I do like the "Tax Timeline" on their Video. Very good idea.

dahowlett · Mar 12, 2009

Duh? The facts speak for themself. Deal with those and we can have an intelligent conversation.

dahowlett · Mar 12, 2009

DuaneJackson said:
What's the confidential info? The user numbers? They're in the public domain - no secrets there

What 'facts'? You've said yourself that carrytheone has posted 4 different sets. You say 20K+ but that's way loose. What are 'we' supposed to believe?

faststaff · Mar 12, 2009

dahowlett said:
What 'facts'? You've said yourself that carrytheone has posted 4 different sets. You say 20K+ but that's way loose. What are 'we' supposed to believe?

How is any company - or individual, as I suspect that is more your motivation - reasonably expected to control everything written about them or their company?

dahowlett · Mar 12, 2009

Duane - you can slag me off as much as you want but the bottom line is that I am not a vendor but an observer/analyst in this field with 30+ years' experience. Argue the facts rather than trying to diss me down on innuendo. You do yourself and your company no credit trying to argue otherwise.

dahowlett · Mar 12, 2009

faststaff said:
How is any company - or individual, as I suspect that is more your motivation - reasonably expected to control everything written about them or their company?

KashFlow has an API to which companies can develop. That's fantastic stuff and to be welcomed.

I have long argued (like 20 years) that companies who offer that type of facility have a duty to manage their ecosystems. Those that don't inevitably end up with problems. check what happens around Sage and SAP as examples. Duane's response indicates a laissez faire attitude. It will come and bite the company. I've seen it many times before.

That can be parsed in many ways. Misrepresentation of numbers for example is a folly. KashFlow should be managing that information and brushing it aside as he did in the public domain is foolish.

Remember that people place trust in their vendors, so if the numbers are wildly exaggerated then they can be fooled in the process. Customers don't like that.

My position is clear - vendors need take responsibility. The fact this is a nascent and growing market does not exempt anyone. If anything, they should learn from the mistakes of the past.

Cornish Steve · Mar 12, 2009

What's posted on Twitter becomes public domain. What's posted here becomes public domain. What's posted on Facebook becomes public domain. Once something is posted online, it's almost impossible to take it back.

We live in an age where we post information in a casual and impromptu manner, and anything can be taken and used for good or ill. I've known solid interview candidates be cast aside because of something learned about them online. Similarly, I've gone into meetings when a potential customer grills me about something found online. We're living in the information age, but we can't control how that information is used. Some companies hire full-time image consultants who browse the 'net every day to ensure the company's image looks good, but you and I can't afford to do that.

Personally, I don't worry about it unduly because I'm not in a position to control it. I confess to being a little sparing in what information I provide online, but even now I probably say more than I should about some things. So be it. We rise and fall based on the reputation we have with our partners, customers, and other stakeholders. If they are satisfied, their opinions will win out in the end.

With this issue, though, Duane, I'd resolve it privately. There's little point in airing frustration online because that just adds fuel to the fire.

dahowlett · Mar 12, 2009

100% agree.

Duane has made a series of inflammatory public statements which he believes are great for PR. No problem with that and as an industry insider it's always good fun.

Fact is that customers don't find this kind of thing useful in making buying decisions. They're far more interested in knowing how one service differentiates from another. That's something I've tried hard to get Duane to understand. His company has a great service and it's getting great recognition among buyers and developers. That should be enough.

Why then is it necessary to keep sniping at whomever offers a critique? Surely the best path is to recognize the validity of what's said, ignore the rest, take advice and move on.

Trying to shoot people like myself is a road to nowhere. I have no axe to grind but will be put on the back foot if a vendor offers a pugilistic position as the opening gambit.

Show me where you're strong, show me your differentiaton, show me where you add value. Everything else is PR.

Cornish Steve · Mar 12, 2009

dahowlett said:
I have long argued (like 20 years) that companies who offer that type of facility have a duty to manage their ecosystems. Those that don't inevitably end up with problems. check what happens around Sage and SAP as examples. Duane's response indicates a laissez faire attitude. It will come and bite the company. I've seen it many times before.

These are lessons we learn over time - which you already know because of your experience.

From my knowledge of Duane from these forums, he's a very open person, which is to be commended, but, as companies grow, few can remain that open. A comment made in good conscience but outside a formal 'press release' procedure can be misinterpreted. It's such a shame that the openness and honesty that Duane exhibits does not carry forward to large companies, such as SAP, that tend to control information tightly. As you point out, laissez faire is anathema to them.

I'm not a user of Twitter, but it appears to be more a social site than a business site. I can understand why Duane gave out information openly, just as you would down the pub one evening. There's a level of trust in social groupings that we don't display in the business world. Lesson learned, I suppose.

Still, for what it's worth, I continue to admire Duane's openness and willingness to call things the way he sees them. It will be a shame if he's forced to filter everything he says through a rigid vetting process.

Cornish Steve · Mar 12, 2009

DuaneJackson said:
he owns 10% of a direct competitor to KashFlow

In his shoes, I'd probably be looking to have a 10% stake in both.

dahowlett · Mar 12, 2009

I too admire Duane's openness but sometimes I think he is naive in the way he presents. It's not a bad thing until he shoots off at the mouth with zero facts to back his position. That's where he is at right now.

As to SAP - trust me: I'm on their case. I'm one of their charter blogger prrogam people and an SAP Mentor - ie I am one of <100 out of their 1.4 million crew of community members afforded that honour. In short it means I know my ****

Check the SAP SDN network to see what I say.

PI Guy · Mar 12, 2009

it's only polite though to ask if you can quote someone IMO.

dahowlett · Mar 12, 2009

PI Guy said:
it's only polite though to ask if you can quote someone IMO.

Not if they're in the public domain...Duane is well aware of that. He uses off the cuff statements himself.

As I said before - wanna play with Big Boys? Then play by Big Boys rules.

Cornish Steve · Mar 12, 2009

I don't mean to cause poor Duane heartburn by asking this but, since you're making your case...Why did you post "anyone else fancy giving a vendor a good slapping?" Isn't that a little mercenary?

dahowlett · Mar 12, 2009

Good question: Duane wants to dish it in the dirt stakes....so why not see if others want to bat back? That might be foolhardy on my part but there comes a time when listening to constant competitor bashing gets a tad boring.

Cornish Steve · Mar 12, 2009

Putting aside this temporary misunderstanding, what is your honest opinion, as a seasoned veteran in the industry, of the KashFlow product?

dahowlett · Mar 12, 2009

I've said many times that I admire and am happy with what KashFlow is doing. Its ability to gain good and solid integration partners is to be commended.

BUT - Duane's insistance on competition bashing is counter productive for both his company and the saas industry at large. Duane seems to believe that any PR is useful. That's fine up to a point but he doesn't realize that sets his company up for criticism of the kind I've identified. It is sad that Duane chooses to take me on on the basis of innuendo rather than facts. It makes him a loser which it shouldn't but then I can only play with what I am given.

As I've said many times before - show me value via your customers...that's what matters. They matter far more than anything he or I can say.

benkepes · Mar 12, 2009

Cornish Steve said:
Putting aside this temporary misunderstanding, what is your honest opinion, as a seasoned veteran in the industry, of the KashFlow product?

Hey Steve - I just came across this thread thanks to one of my saved searches. If you're interested in seeing independent reviews of KashFlow (and for that matter the majority of online accounting products) - check out cloudave.com/tag/accy2

Cheers

Ben

DuaneJackson · Mar 12, 2009

The point of this thread wasn't to air any greivance with dahowlett. He's just doing his job. It's my naievety that means I was done up like a kipper on his blog. Lesson learnt, I'm over it!

The point of this thread is to warn others. Something Steve has done a bit more eloquently.

As for "competitor bashing" - a £2bn+ (yes, thats TWO BILLION) company report me to Trading Standards. So when I find flaws in their competing product I published them rather than going privately to the company in question. Others get that. The recent "PR" (if you can call it that) over the situation has also ended up coming down in my favour. If vigorously defending yourself when you're under attack is competitior bashing, then so be it. It seems you're only allowed to be David if you let yourself get trampled

To get things in balance, I've also said positive things about competitiors (see above for a start!). Something you don't tend to see others doing.

PS. I'm surprised noone has noticed that when dhowletts blog is saying good things about me on the other thread it's "read by lots of web-savvy acountants". But when he's stitching me up it's "only read by competitors". It made me laugh anyway!

An Oasis · Mar 12, 2009

Interesting thread.

What was the phrase of Franky Howard..."Twitter ye not!"

It's not for me I cannot stand Twitter, although it interesting to see how badly bitten by it the mainstream media have become. Which makes the whole thing tempting but we just don't have the personnel available to take it on.

stugster · Mar 12, 2009

Very interesting thread. Who is the other vendor that is being spoken about?

Greg_Smith · Mar 12, 2009

stugster said:
Very interesting thread. Who is the other vendor that is being spoken about?

Who cares?

stugster · Mar 12, 2009

Well, if it's who I think it is, it's absolutely hilarious

wecandobiz · Mar 12, 2009

I may come over as very corporate to people, but I never let my guard drop when I am representing my business -- and that includes what I post on Twitter or anywhere else. I would not say this is a warning about Twitter specifically, but a warning about any sort of conduct when contacted by someone wanting to hear about your business. In such context you are the mouthpiece for your business and any flippancy and *****iness will become the image your company holds.

IH

Esk247 · Mar 12, 2009

I twitter under Esk247 but as i've said on here before..its MY business...I AM the business and if you don't like my views you won't like working with me..even though i'm incredibly liberal and don't give a flying goose what you do in your own home and with your own business as long as i get paid for my time.

twitter is dangerous if you make it personal under your business name..as is facebook..as is this very forum!

I'm actually working for a number of charities/groups for free and wouldn't dare bring their names in to the public domain without permission and even then i'd put my 'Employee' hat on and be careful, not entering in to banter etc.

Duane can have Duane's views..thats fine. I suppose it becomes dangerous when you have the Kashflow sign illuminated above your head in a Twitter thread. poetry.

wecandobiz · Mar 12, 2009

Esk247 said:
I twitter under Esk247 but as i've said on here before..its MY business...I AM the business and if you don't like my views you won't like working with me..even though i'm incredibly liberal and don't give a flying goose what you do in your own home and with your own business as long as i get paid for my time.

twitter is dangerous if you make it personal under your business name..as is facebook..as is this very forum!

I'm actually working for a number of charities/groups for free and wouldn't dare bring their names in to the public domain without permission and even then i'd put my 'Employee' hat on and be careful, not entering in to banter etc.

Duane can have Duane's views..thats fine. I suppose it becomes dangerous when you have the Kashflow sign illuminated above your head in a Twitter thread. poetry.

I agree with what you say, but it isn't as simple as thinking carefully about your username. Duane uses his personal name, but who follows him because of the person he is? By that I mean because they think he is a great bloke in real life? Let's be clear, whether you use your real name or not, you'll pick up followers based on what you are known for as a person and the subject matter you tweet on. If your followers follow you because of your work persona and your opinion on the industry you're involved in, you are part of your company's brand whether your username reflects that, is just your personal name or is something artbitary and meaningless.

IH

Mar 12, 2009

This is exactly why i don't seem to have caught the "twitter" bug!

Mustaka · Mar 12, 2009

Dahowlet,

I don't really like how you have gone about 'slapping' a vendor. I find your tone to be aggressive and personal against Duane rather than what I would have expected from someone who reports to know their s%8t.

I read an underlying agenda in how you have conducted yourself. One that has done you a disservice to your professional image. The way you chose to interpret Duane's comments and the underlying way in which they were twisted to satisfy your agenda in my opinion was not professional and borderline unethical.

We each in every decision we make, regardless if its personal or business, show who we are as an individual. I suggest you sit yourself in front of a mirror and ask yourself some hard questions.

I know Duane, have met with, and do business with him. As far as the Sage fight, they brought it and he has rolled up his sleeves and got stuck in. Sage will have mighty deep pockets and if they tie Kashflow up in litigation that could be the end of them. What Duane has done has made every single little detail of it public and in doing so gained public interest and in doing so is taking the fight to the enemy.

I am sure something along the lines of "There be a tempest in this there bottle sir!!!! Shall I open it?" was said when deciding if they were going to pursue the issue legally.

Would I have done things differently? Yeah probably. I would not have been as restrained.

lesliedocherty · Mar 12, 2009

Duane gave me an infraction the other day for some comments, so im not on his side by any means.

Dahowlet's blog post was one sided and a hatchet job, thats how i read it, some ok points, but it was a mud slinging exercise, and the stuff he goes on about Duane is all OTT.

Duane's openess is not a flaw, i quite like his honesty and i like the fact he answers question with factual answers, even though hes a s**t for my infraction.

I did find the amount of people sticking with Kashflow worrying, i am almost at the point of moving over to it, but concerned that the figure of 10-15% sticking, it does seem really low.

ken_uk · Mar 13, 2009

dahowlett said:
KashFlow has an API to which companies can develop. That's fantastic stuff and to be welcomed.

I have long argued (like 20 years) that companies who offer that type of facility have a duty to manage their ecosystems. Those that don't inevitably end up with problems. check what happens around Sage and SAP as examples.

Hmm, the sage API, I had the misfortune of having to use that once, and having to single handedly run the support line whilst the rest buggered off on holiday.

ken_uk · Mar 13, 2009

Cornish Steve said:
What's posted on Twitter becomes public domain. What's posted here becomes public domain. What's posted on Facebook becomes public domain. Once something is posted online, it's almost impossible to take it back.

Not really.

The original posted always has copyright of what they post, unless the site they post it on clearly states otherwise.

The information may be out there and no longer a secret, but its still subject to normal copyright law.

Subbynet · Mar 13, 2009

A rather disgusting and inflammatory piece written by what seems like a journalistic parasite. Fancy asking questions over Twitter which limits to a 140 characters which leads to the basis of a "article"....

This "article" was nothing but a personal vendetta.

NCA · Mar 13, 2009

I really didn't find that much wrong with the article. I think the issue with numbers is a bit of a muddle.

Mr Howlett is spot on with his comments about the API. An API can be a very dangerous weapon even in experienced hands. Developers make mistakes and those mistakes can be very costly.

To give you an idea of the danger; I took a look at KashFlow a couple of months ago for a friend of mine looking for small business accounts package. To have a play I used the API to import some standard test data. The data has 2000+ customer records which went into Kashflow fine. But I could have made a mistake and had a loop which was infinitely adding records. I dint know if the API would have stopped me at some point or not. The documentation is sparse and there is no reference to systems capacities or whether there are built in triggers to stop stupidity or malicious intent. With a free for all sign up and free access to the API I hope there are.

If it does go all horribly wrong who takes ownership of the problem? The developer who integrated with KashFlow who can blame the API; KashFlow who can blame the developer or the poor punter in the middle who is stuffed with no one willing to take ownership of the problem?

kevin555 · Mar 13, 2009

20 years in the business and he sounds like a jumped up schoolkid (that's polite for ****).

Whether Duane's figures are loose or not, your journalistic technique is gutter press.

Trying to come over all high and mighty after being sneaky and surreptitious - how pathetic.

katev · Mar 13, 2009

Twitter is a very good alternative for advertisement in an indirect way, the idea is to be careful about the way you strength the profile and the person in there, there are different alternatives for making followers, but all depends on the creativeness and strategies you handle.

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