web developer or DIY

[nickyh60]

I need some help!

Now my sales have fallen along with footfall to my B&M shop, I'm looking into setting up an online shop. I've got a basic information site (www.olliescloset.co.uk (http://www.olliescloset.co.uk)) which shows how basic my skills currently are when it comes to web design!!

Bearing that in mind, i decided to employ someone to design my website at a very reasonable price but am now having second thoughts.

As I will need to make regular changes to the website due to the nature of my stock, am I better off just learning how to build it myself. I don't want it to have that typical DIY site look but am I just wasting money using a designer if I then have to keep changing pages?

I also looked into buying a template & going from there-any opinions on that?

Does anyone have any suggestions as to where I go from here?

[funkychef]

Hi.
I'm sure the web designer may disagree, but try ekmpowershop Good for a start up e-commerce site.

We've (thefunkychef) used this up until now, and has been simple to use whilst we settle on the feel of the site. We'll soon, however, find a designer to custom build our new site, as there are a few more things that we'd like incorporated.

[mehode]

Use a web designer is a good idea.
Make sure he adheres to web standard. That is, when finished check on this link the website he made so it passes the test:
http :// validator. w3. org/
Remove the spaces!

Also, look at the source code. You don't have to understand too much, just look there are not many <table> tags but more <div> tags unless they are rows of data like an excell sheet.
Then test the finished website on IE6, IE7, Firefox, Google Chrome to see that it looks everywhere the same.
Top of the source code should be a DOCTYPE. Check to see the DOCTYPE says something about XHTML 1.0 Strict or Alternative when doing the test with link I placed above.

What a web designer is trained to do can be impossible to reach by someone just starting in terms of how a website looks and usability.

If it's a webshop, you should have administration side where you can add and remove your products yourself.

Templates are not that easy to use. They give a good starting point to the web designer so he knows what the customers want in terms of design but most of the time templates are cheap and buggy.

[adam391]

an e-commerce solution that allows you to manage products from an admin panel could be a good way to go.

I will pm you my details and examples of similar work I have done in this area.

Regards

Adam Curtis

[nickyh60]

Use a web designer is a good idea.
Make sure he adheres to web standard. That is, when finished check on this link the website he made so it passes the test:
http :// validator. w3. org/
Remove the spaces!

Also, look at the source code. You don't have to understand too much, just look there are not many <table> tags but more <div> tags unless they are rows of data like an excell sheet.

What a web designer is trained to do can be impossible to reach by someone just starting in terms of how a website looks and usability.

If it's a webshop, you should have administration side where you can add and remove your products yourself.

Thank you, that was my gut feeling. Am I able to check that on websites he has already created?

[nickyh60]

an e-commerce solution that allows you to manage products from an admin panel could be a good way to go.

I will pm you my details and examples of similar work I have done in this area.

Regards

Adam Curtis


thank you adam.

[mehode]

Thank you, that was my gut feeling. Am I able to check that on websites he has already created?

It's best to let him know before he starts that you will check but then test when he finishes.
I have edited my first post.

[awebapart.com]

web developer or DIY
Both.

1. Creating a website
2. maintaining its content, administering the site, processing orders

require very different skills.

However you should also consider that the moment you start asking web suppliers what are important things to consider when selecting a web supplier, you will get a biased answer, biased towards what the web supplier thinks or delivers. Different web suppliers will have different views about what is important.

Ask yourself, what is important to you for your website, and for business people the bottom line is usually sales, success etc. This is a good starting point, ask your supplier whether they have delivered such results to similar clients, and whether they think they can do something similar for you.

[nickyh60]

thank you, you've been really helpful.

[mehode]

Both.

1. Creating a website
2. maintaining its content, administering the site, processing orders

require very different skills.

However you should also consider that the moment you start asking web suppliers what are important things to consider when selecting a web supplier, you will get a biased answer, biased towards what the web supplier thinks or delivers. Different web suppliers will have different views about what is important.

Ask yourself, what is important to you for your website, and for business people the bottom line is usually sales, success etc. This is a good starting point, ask your supplier whether they have delivered such results to similar clients, and whether they think they can do something similar for you.

Run an adwords and you'll get sales. How is this to prove the webdesigner has done his job properly or not?
Web Design is to do with how a website looks and how easy it is to use. On this latest I would still argue that it's a web developer that makes it easy to use. You like what you see or not, that's a web designer. SEO is to drive traffic to your site, that's something else.

[awebapart.com]

I also looked into buying a template & going from there-any opinions on that?
Have a look at this oscommerce template checklist (http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=192367).

[Edward Moss]

I had my site re-done recently and the increase in enquiries and bookings has meant it's paid for itself in 2 months :)
From my limited experience go down the designer route as they will know about SEO and all the web answers I don't have.
Mine is run using Expression Engine which means I can update the pics/text myself.

My old website was done by a friend and always stayed around page 7 in Google searches, the new one is page 1 and 2 :) Think it was false economy getting a mate to do it, but you live and learn.

[zoezoe]

I would think that the best solution would be a proper eccomerce solution like www.actinic.co.uk (http://www.actinic.co.uk). You buy the software, pay the developer to do the design, and then you can manage the shop completely on your own. Actnic provide full training and support for any issues. You only need to go back to the designer if you need the design tweaked...

There are free carts etc out there, but actinic can offer a lot more and will provide with teh software you need to run a shop for many years to come...

[awebapart.com]

Run an adwords and you'll get sales. How is this to prove the webdesigner has done his job properly or not?
There is a difference between getting a good website and getting an effective web presence. I'm sure there are plenty of web suppliers who will quite happily provide a website, but how many will actually question whether the business has a chance of success in the first place, especially one launching into a saturated market (http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=532700) like the OP's baby wear business.

[mehode]

I would think that the best solution would be a proper eccomerce solution like www.actinic.co.uk (http://www.actinic.co.uk). You buy the software, pay the developer to do the design, and then you can manage the shop completely on your own. Actnic provide full training and support for any issues. You only need to go back to the designer if you need the design tweaked...

There are free carts etc out there, but actinic can offer a lot more and will provide with teh software you need to run a shop for many years to come...

Actinic is hard coded, ask to add a feature to it and you will see where their support stops. Go with CRE Loaded. The data is kept in a MySQL database and can be helpful as your company grows.

[zoezoe]

Actinic is hard coded, ask to add a feature to it and you will see where their support stops. Go with CRE Loaded. The data is kept in a MySQL database and can be helpful as your company grows.

Its not *hardcoded* as such if the design includes a feature section then the developer will add a field to allow the user to add and remove features. The flexibility of the store depends on the developer.

Actinic will not fix any design issues - only support the product.

[nickyh60]

so let me get this straight, I pay the developer to design my site & then I need to buy software to run the site-is that on top of the monthly payment processing fee??

wow, just when I thought I was beginning to understand it all!

[mehode]

so let me get this straight, I pay the developer to design my site & then I need to buy software to run the site-is that on top of the monthly payment processing fee??

wow, just when I thought I was beginning to understand it all!

Your web designer would have already included the price of the application if any.

And yes, there is the Merchant Account you need to pay to your bank (Barclays, Streamline, ...), that is, setup fee, monthly fee, per transaction fee.
And yes you need a Payment Gateway you pay to your bank or another service provider (Nochex, Paypal, Protx, WorldPay, Barclays, Fortis -> two first, you don't need to pay for a Merchant Account), that is per transaction fee.

[adam391]

I agree with mehode the development and design should be included in the developers cost for the job.

[awebapart.com]

so let me get this straight, I pay the developer to design my site & then I need to buy software to run the site-is that on top of the monthly payment processing fee??

wow, just when I thought I was beginning to understand it all!
Yes it can be a 'can of worms' depending on which way you go. A complex way could involve paying separately for:

1. a logo designer
2. a web designer
3. an ecommerce system supplier (if you go for a commercial system)
4. upfront and monthly payment processing fees if you go with Protx, Worldpay (which I wouldn't recommend to start with, start with PayPal until business picks up, PayPal is free but takes a higher cut of the transaction)
5. a web developer to integrate the web design into the ecommerce system and integrate the payment system
6. a web host
7. Adwords (perhaps even an Adwords consultant)
8. an SEO consultant
etc

But doing it this way, paying separately, you are the IT project manager, the solution provider, and ultimately you are responsible if something goes wrong, the other suppliers are just cogs in the wheel.

The other approach is to get a company, which could be one of the above to do more or most of this for you (either themselves or via outsourcing), or find a company offering more of an all-in-one solution.

My personal advice for you in your particular pre-loved babywear field, is that you are entering into a highly saturated market (baby goods), and as such you shouldn't really consider going to the expense of setting up your own site until you have tested the online market using ebay, to give you an appreciation of the saturation. You may find that ebay is the better way to go anyway, or you may find that it is just too tough a market to crack.

[nickyh60]

His website says that 1 yr's hosting & secure ssl certificate is included in the price. Is that the same thing?

He advises to use protx for online payments-£20 a mth. Does that sound right?

Sorry for all these questions, you really are talking to a novice!

[mehode]

PayPal is free but takes a higher cut of the transaction

Unless you get the business rate which you must apply for when you reach over £1500 of transaction per month, then the cut might actually be less than any of the other one. It's not automatic, that's why you must apply for it.

Nochex doesn't seem bad at all as I was again looking into it recently. They offer a decent Gateway.
Barclays will most probably say you are a risky business so they will keep your customers money for 30 days. They will promise to review it after 12 month.
Paypal will keep 10% of the transactions for a period of 100 days when you shop get more busy. Same excuse, risky business.
This happened to my clients times and again even though they are doing well.

[nickyh60]

My personal advice for you in your particular pre-loved babywear field, is that you are entering into a highly saturated market (baby goods), and as such you shouldn't really consider going to the expense of setting up your own site until you have tested the online market using ebay, to give you an appreciation of the saturation. You may find that ebay is the better way to go anyway, or you may find that it is just too tough a market to crack.[/quote]

Thank you for your advice. TBH, this was one of the reasons why I thought about the DIY route-however, as you can see, it's all foreign to me!! I've been selling on ebay for a while now ( but not through a shop) & it does quite well. However, with many other ebay sellers, the fees are getting me down. I suppose I should consider opening an ebay shop for comparision.

[mehode]

His website says that 1 yr's hosting & secure ssl certificate is included in the price. Is that the same thing?

He advises to use protx for online payments-£20 a mth. Does that sound right?

Sorry for all these questions, you really are talking to a novice!

Protx is very good. You will still need a Merchant Account though and this is where the cost are with the setup fee.

If you are a registered member of FSB, you will get preferential rate if you select Streamline as your Merchant Account.

[nickyh60]

Protx is very good. You will still need a Merchant Account though and this is where the cost are with the setup fee.

If you are a registered member of FSB, you will get preferential rate if you select Streamline as your Merchant Account.


I've got streamline in the shop-could I use the same account?

[mehode]

I've got streamline in the shop-could I use the same account?

If it's for the same business going on the same bank account, I really don't see why not.

[awebapart.com]

I've got streamline in the shop-could I use the same account?
Basically there are 3 types of merchant account services:

1. Cardholder present services for physical shops
2. Cardholder not present services for shops that want to take orders over the phone, post etc
3. Internet merchant services for card details taken over the internet

The shop owner normally signs up and gets charged depending on the particular service they select, and just because you use one service it doesn't mean you can use it for other purposes, and doing so could break the terms and conditions and lose the shop owner the service completely.

You might be able to use the same supplier (streamline), but you will have to open up (and pay for) a new service/account with them - it might all go into the same pool/balance account at the end of the day.

[fairestcape]

I've been in the business of e-commerce sites since 2001 - before the days of the now-popular opensource systems. Getting an online shop back them was an expensive and complex business.

Over the years I've tried (and tested) many online shopping systems. I now steer clear of practically all of the commercially available ones, and most of the free (opensource) packages - with one major exception...

... Zencart... and while it can take a bit of getting used to, it offers a lot more than most other packages. It's robust, very secure and significantly more flexible than most of the others. The support forum is unquestionably the best in the industry.

There are many extremely reliable zencart gurus around (go look on their forum www.zen-cart.com/forum (http://www.zen-cart.com/forum) ) and if you like what you see get in touch with some of them.

There are a number of people on this forum that know zencart (including me) and I'm sure that if you make a choice of any of us, you'll be very happy with the result.

[awebapart.com]

I've been selling on ebay for a while now ( but not through a shop) & it does quite well.
Then you are in a stronger position than going online afresh, even if it just means you can make your ebay customers aware of your website (compliments slips in the delivery, etc) if there is the potential for repeat business.

For second-hand baby goods, though, you may find that it is places like ebay rather than the web where most potential customers go, just like people go to the autotrader site for used cars or the rightmove site for houses. There are some stats to slightly suggest otherwise on the google adwords (https://adwords.google.co.uk/select/KeywordToolExternal) (type in second hand baby and select "Match Type" "Exact" for some ideas of what searches are being made)

this was one of the reasons why I thought about the DIY route
When you first mentioned about the DIY route, I got the impression you were talking about a full DIY ecommerce site web build. As you have experienced with ebay, you can get a web presence the DIY way without having to learn technical things and create websites, and the next step up from this on the DIY route is either going with an eBay shop, or going with a hosted managed solution like EKM Powershop - either way it is not fully DIY as there is still a ecommerce system supplier in the picture. There are other suppliers on this forum offering hosted managed services like EKM, including InternetRetailer (Quickshop), and PaceRetail (PaceRetail use their own custom version of ZenCart).

[nickyh60]

So you would advise looking into an ebay shop instead of the online shop? I still have the issue of a very amateur information website as it stands which doesn't really give the impression I would like-is it worth paying someone to sort that out?

[edmondscommerce]

I would definitely avoid actinic

A basic open source ecommerce package would be great for you.

What I would strongly recommend is getting a copy of XAMPP and having a go at installing a few open source carts on your local PC

Play around with a few and see if there is one that is more intuitive for you or not.

I would recommend getting a good web designer to create your look - the design - but don't necessarily expect to find someone who is great at design and also at development (customising the functionality).

I would avoid paypal if you can, but then if you need something very easy to set up you can install CREloaded (I have the free 6.2 version if you need it) which comes bundled with paypal so its plug and play.

If you do decide to tinker with your site - even if you get someone else to get the ball rolling for you - whatever you do don't tinker with your live site - always have a development version of your site that is not publicly accessible. Ideally as I said above - get XAMPP so that you can develop on your local machine.

[awebapart.com]

So you would advise looking into an ebay shop instead of the online shop? I still have the issue of a very amateur information website as it stands which doesn't really give the impression I would like-is it worth paying someone to sort that out?
I'm just trying to give you some alternative ideas. As for ebay, don't get too focused on impressions or looks, the bottom line with ebay is that you are in a place where customer shop design expectation level is low, and more importantly a place where your potential customers already are, that's what you are really paying for with ebay (along with the trust aspect). Ebay shops can be improved to a limited extent (e.g. a graphics logo/banner), and some of these limits are good in some ways as it still gives the ebay user a consistent user interface they are familiar with, whichever ebay shop they browse. With ebay shops there is still the cost per item (http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/sell/storefees.html) listed issue. Going for other hosted managed solutions should give you more flexibility, and avoid the cost per item listed issue, but you also lose the ebay user footfall.

[nickyh60]

I'm just trying to give you some alternative ideas. As for ebay, don't get too focused on impressions or looks, the bottom line with ebay is that you are in a place where your potential customers already are, that's what you are really paying for with ebay (along with the trust aspect). Ebay shops can be improved to a limited extent (e.g. a graphics logo/banner), and some of these limits are good in some ways as it still gives the ebay user a consistent user interface they are familiar with, whichever ebay shop they browse. With ebay shops there is still the cost per item (http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/sell/storefees.html) listed issue. Going for other hosted managed solutions should give you more flexibility, and avoid the cost per item listed issue, but you also lose the ebay user footfall.


Sorry, I didn't make myself very clear-I was referring to the website I've got at the moment (www.olliescloset.co.uk).

You've definitely given me something else to think about-thanks for your time, it is really appreciated.

[awebapart.com]

Sorry, I didn't make myself very clear-I was referring to the website I've got at the moment (www.olliescloset.co.uk (http://www.olliescloset.co.uk)).
Oh dear. That site isn't going to do you many favours at all in gaining new visitors from the search engines, your only hope at getting visitors with that site is to tell people about it (including your ebay customers), and possibly US customers from the search engines (are people going to buy low priced items from abroad with the added delivery costs?). Even if you get visitors, those visitors aren't going to have much trust in the site when they see the freewebs address and the google ads, even if the site is improved cosmetically.

To clarify my search engine comments, your site is not hosted under your domain, your domain is redirected to a freewebs.com site. Freewebs is hosted in the US (http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=45824) so google thinks this is a US website, which is why you appear for this search (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=ollies+closet&meta=) but not for this (pages from the UK) search (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=ollies+closet&btnG=Search&meta=cr%3DcountryUK%7CcountryGB) - because of this you will get downranked for any UK-based search (not just pages from the UK searches), especially for your products (which probably wouldn't fare well in the search engines anyway since they are targeting preloved baby clothing a search term hardly anyone is searching for, rather than something like second hand baby clothes).

To put things in perspective, according to Google adwords there are 210 searches made a month for second hand baby clothes in the UK. Even if your site was on page one in this niche area and people visit your site, you also have to consider the conversion rate, converting visitors into paying customers, which is typically low for most ecommerce shops (1%), perhaps less for second hand shops where the product range is more limited. For your non-second hand products you are competing in a more saturated market more difficult to rank for. So without ebay, you might only be making a handful of sales a month if your site gets on page 1 of google, and at low priced goods in the few pounds category that isn't going to be a lot. So realistically, I think you either have to stick with ebay, or come up with some other very clever marketing to get people visiting your site in order to make it viable.

Websites and technology aside (they are not always the answer), if you are looking for a viable secondary sales channel, you might find it more lucrative selling at big car boot sales.

[nickyh60]

I know, it's a shocker isn't it! It's basically there to give people directions to the shop & information about selling their clothes to us. It was meant to be temporary but a year on, we still haven't changed it!

We've got a few other options with regard to selling channels-car boots will be the absolute last (desperate) option!

if I were to use the site just for info purposes, is it still important for me to get a professional to design it for me or is this something I really should be doing myself?

[awebapart.com]

if I were to use the site just for info purposes, is it still important for me to get a professional to design it for me or is this something I really should be doing myself?
The site as it is should at least be improved so that the site sits under the domain name. You can do this if you invest in freeweb's premium services, but then at those prices, you are paying for something you can get for free from Microsoft Office Live Basics (http://smallbusiness.officelive.com/), and I think the Microsoft offering is better if you just want an information site.

Have you checked your current site on IE6? The big images on the left go across the whole page.

With both systems you have control of the content management side. If anything, just get a graphic designer to design a logo/graphic banner - you should be able to use this on ebay too.

[kabetz]

I need some help!

Now my sales have fallen along with footfall to my B&M shop, I'm looking into setting up an online shop. I've got a basic information site (www.olliescloset.co.uk (http://www.olliescloset.co.uk)) which shows how basic my skills currently are when it comes to web design!!

Bearing that in mind, i decided to employ someone to design my website at a very reasonable price but am now having second thoughts.

As I will need to make regular changes to the website due to the nature of my stock, am I better off just learning how to build it myself. I don't want it to have that typical DIY site look but am I just wasting money using a designer if I then have to keep changing pages?

I also looked into buying a template & going from there-any opinions on that?

Does anyone have any suggestions as to where I go from here?

I tend to read this post differently from most people. The things that stands out to me is that your sales are falling which means that your surplus cash is falling too.

What I'd be looking to do is get an e-commerce website online ASAP for little or no expenditure.

The first thing you need to do is buy a domain name and to do that just Google 123-reg click on there and buy a domain name on a .co.uk level that represents what you sell NOT who you are.

To do that you need to get some good keywords that describe what you sell.

When you've got you're domain sorted you need some web space which will cost you around £5 a month.

When you choose your host look for a linux server offering mysql.

Along with the linux and mysql you need a host who uses a little tickle called fantastico which will basically install a full e-commerce shop onto your new server.

From there you can begin to experiment on how to use an e-commerce website, because no matter how much you pay to a person to build this type of shopping system for you at the end of the day you'll be left to work it yourself.

Having used the system for 2 or 3 weeks you will then understand a bit more about what you require and then approach a web designer who can then build what you require.

Sounds about right.

[nickyh60]

I tend to read this post differently from most people. The things that stands out to me is that your sales are falling which means that your surplus cash is falling too.

What I'd be looking to do is get an e-commerce website online ASAP for little or no expenditure.

The first thing you need to do is buy a domain name and to do that just Google 123-reg click on there and buy a domain name on a .co.uk level that represents what you sell NOT who you are.

To do that you need to get some good keywords that describe what you sell.

When you've got you're domain sorted you need some web space which will cost you around £5 a month.

When you choose your host look for a linux server offering mysql.

Along with the linux and mysql you need a host who uses a little tickle called fantastico which will basically install a full e-commerce shop onto your new server.

From there you can begin to experiment on how to use an e-commerce website, because no matter how much you pay to a person to build this type of shopping system for you at the end of the day you'll be left to work it yourself.

Having used the system for 2 or 3 weeks you will then understand a bit more about what you require and then approach a web designer who can then build what you require.

Sounds about right.

Thanks -I've done exactly that today using a sideline business idea. Let's see how I go with that!

[minttwist]

If you have the design skills and have done the plnning (i.e. you have a good idea of what the purpose, target messages, target audiences and action calls you want your website to contain) there is no reason why you can't have a stab at the Design yourself. This article gives a quick overview on the web design process ...

http://minttwist.wordpress.com/2008/11/16/the-minttwist-ology-design-the-perfect-website-2/

Best of luck for you.

[neilly_smiff]

Hi nickyh60,

May I suggest an alternative ecommerce software package you might not have heard of? It's called Tiger Commerce (www .tigercommerce.co.uk) and it's relatively new on the scene, cheap for what you get, very easy to use and looks great. You certainly don't need to be technical to use it - I've seen a lot of other ecommerce software administration areas and this is by far the simplest and cleanest interface...

We use the software for our shop (www .squadronleader.co.uk) and as you can see, it looks great and more importantly - it sells our products. We also do very well on natural Search Engine Optimisation which obviously helps to bring in the sales. Type in 'parkzone spitfire' into google and you'll see us double listed at the top - this is our main product which we sell so having our Tiger Commerce shop indexed really well by Google helps :)

You can sign up to their free ecommerce trial here:
www .tigercommerce.co.uk/ecommerce-free-trial

Just give it a go and see what you think... free support also which helps :p

Good luck!