GazaInNeed.org.uk! Help the people helping Gaza!

[Anhalo]

Hello,

Over 257 children were killed over the past few weeks in Gaza and thousands more were injured.

There may be talks of ceasefire, but these children still need help!

Please visit the website from the Title to donate to a charity helping out in Gaza, to help these poor innocent children and civilians!

Many thanks,

Anhalo.

[PointandStare]

This is a legally registered charity I take it?

edit - My mistake, you're just offering links to official charities.
Apologises.

[Anhalo]

yeah, at the time I set it up I didn't have much time to register my own charity, as the crisis was more urgent.

[adam]

Hello,

Over 257 children were killed over the past few weeks in Gaza and thousands more were injured.


Surely if they stopped firing rockets in to Israel then they wouldn't get killed or have I missed something?

[Simon-M]

Such a needless waste of life going on there. Both sides have very valid arguments that will never be resolved by violence. On the one hand you have the down trodden and on the other you have the terrorised. Answers on a postcard to.....

Simon

[dean023]

Surely if they stopped firing rockets in to Israel then they wouldn't get killed or have I missed something?

I tend to agree even after the initial ceasefire they fired rockets first to kick it off again. But I agree too many innocent lives being lost

[swisslogistics]

I think there is a lack of understanding here as to the REAL cause of the problem.

If the ZIONIST's were not occupying land, slaughtering innocent people by the thousands...essentially inflicting a holocaust on the Palestinian people then there would be no resistance.

Why dont people go look at a map of the region...say a 70 year old map, its quite clear there was a place called Palestine...funny how its been wiped off the face of the earth...and no one seems to know or care, however if the President of Iran says such a thing about Isreal the whole world is ready to stand up for the Zionists.

The Zionists need to understand that the resistance or the will of the Palestinian people can never be broken...and until they learn that there is no way forward other than giving the Palestinians their rightful land and to treat them as human beings, the rockets will keep comming.

On the one side you have one of the most advanced military forces in the world on the other kids with stones, it dosent take a genius to work out that there is a massive inbalance of power.

I get VERY angry when people who know little about the conflict and its true cause make silly coments like those made above.

Isreal should be boycotted, the strong lobby in the UK should be singled out and bought to book over the act of terrorism committed by their commrades against innocents and lets not forget us the brits too.

It was us (the brits) that let this whole mess occur by issuing the Balfour act it should never have been passed, or they should have at least respected it and adheered to it.

[Dawg]

I just love people who know the REAL truth, and the ZIONISTS are all to blame, because they can use SHOUTY CAPS to argue with, despite the fact that they are representing just one face of a multifaceted problem.

BTW Swisslogistics, what has the "Balfour act" got to do with the middle east? The Balfour Act was a 1902 Education Act establishing local education authorities in England and Wales. You might mean the Balfour Declaration of 1917 which led to the establishment of a Jewish homeland in Palestine. A grasp of the details helps...

I get VERY angry when people who know little about the conflict and its true cause make silly coments like those made above.
Swisslogistics.

[dave_n]

what's a zionist?
is it the infidel western dogs who insist on receiving rockets into their gardens?

[adam]

But didn't Israel build the country up on a slither of land surrounded by people that want to wipe them off the face of the earth?

Okay, with hindsight not the best place to build your country!

[Gillie]

But didn't Israel build the country up on a slither of land surrounded by people that want to wipe them off the face of the earth?

Okay, with hindsight not the best place to build your country!

We merely returned to where we started!!

[Delta-SI]

The Zionists need to understand that the resistance or the will of the Palestinian people can never be broken...and until they learn that there is no way forward other than giving the Palestinians their rightful land and to treat them as human beings, the rockets will keep comming.


Shame that the Hamas scum bags are using ambulances to transport their troops and using children as shields while they are firing AK's at Israeli Apaches. And then they parade their dead on the streets saying that Israel is slaughtering people in their thousands? Rubbish...

By the way, I am not too impressed that you are making posts that support terrorism.

Lets hope that the Mossad sneak into their (Hamas') homes at night and quietly slits their throats. A slightly more legitimate action than the one you are proposing.

[Jenni384]

first off: I don't rightly understand the politics going on Israel vs Gaza.

I have to say though, I don't understand why everyone is being so anti-Israel. :|

AFAIK, Gaza started this most recent conflict - them being Hamas, a known terrorist organisation. Israel responded, and are now the bad guys. I know this is a very simplistic overview of the situation, but I just don't get it.

Bottom line is, both sides should stop. But that's easier said than done :(

[Gillie]

first off: I don't rightly understand the politics going on Israel vs Gaza.

I have to say though, I don't understand why everyone is being so anti-Israel. :|

AFAIK, Gaza started this most recent conflict - them being Hamas, a known terrorist organisation. Israel responded, and are now the bad guys. I know this is a very simplistic overview of the situation, but I just don't get it.

Bottom line is, both sides should stop. But that's easier said than done :(

The politics involved are centuries old and for most have been lost and are now merely a case of pure hatred!

[Comspec]

We merely returned to where we started!!

Cheshire? ;)

I agree it is terrible to see children suffering, but these Hamas clowns have used children as shields in the past and will again. The last time israel gave them a tanking they felt it, yet they continue to attack them.

"Powerful nations will kick your country's butt if you fire rockets to antagonise them" - basic teachings there !!

The whole 'Israel vs the rest of the Middle East' needs to be addressd, and the UK/US constantly arming Israel and turning a blind eye to them when they use heavy handed tactics is fundamentally wrong. But, someone in that area needs to propose a peaceful solution that will suit everyone, rather than cause more children hurt and further hatred to grow up with.

It will cease to be a problem once Iran goes fully nuclear anyways....

[Jenni384]

The politics involved are centuries old and for most have been lost and are now merely a case of pure hatred!
Well aware of that... and the religious roots of the conflict can't be sorted out easily.

I just don't get why the Israelis are being painted as the bad guys when the other side are a known terrorist organisation... :|

[Delta-SI]

Oh and look at 1:20.... Human Shields in the form of children.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOVnkvYTWtE

[Gillie]

Cheshire? ;)



Piss off Mark ... :eek:

Well aware of that... and the religious roots of the conflict can't be sorted out easily.

I just don't get why the Israelis are being painted as the bad guys when the other side are a known terrorist organisation... :|

Israel are deemed to be hitting children, hospitals and schools and the propoganda is making sure everyone sees the tv pics of bodies of children ... without mentioning the years they have been firing missiles into Israel and killing civilians too!

[Comspec]

One thing I have learned from growing up in Nothern Ireland.....

Until people from opposing 'sides' of any conflict can actually see things from the other 'sides' perspective, there is no way to ever reach an agreement.

From what I ever see, the two 'sides' to this conflict (gaza) will never recognise the other's POV, and it seems to be turned into a purely 'religious' thing. I notice it from the posts on here even tbh.

In NI, we have finally recognised that both sides of the religious divide were causing grief to everyone, and that allowed people to actually move towards sorting the problem. There is a long way and a couple of generations before this really sorts itself, but in the meantime we have a few hundred less people being killed each year.

I still canot believe that relgions are so competitive that they allow for members the other religions to be killed without banishing/excommunicating everyone involved......

[Gillie]

One thing I have learned from growing up in Nothern Ireland.....

Until people from opposing 'sides' of any conflict can actually see things from the other 'sides' perspective, there is no way to ever reach an agreement.

From what I ever see, the two 'sides' to this conflict (gaza) will never recognise the other's POV, and it seems to be turned into a purely 'religious' thing. I notice it from the posts on here even tbh.

In NI, we have finally recognised that both sides of the religious divide were causing grief to everyone, and that allowed people to actually move towards sorting the problem. There is a long way and a couple of generations before this really sorts itself, but in the meantime we have a few hundred less people being killed each year.

I still canot believe that relgions are so competitive that they allow for members the other religions to be killed without banishing/excommunicating everyone involved......

There is one major difference though between what happens there and what happens here!

You have to understand that religion is not just something that happens on a Friday/Sat/Sun (delete where applicable!) its a way of life. The religion dictates what you wear, what you eat, who you are seen with etc etc, so to purely look at changing that is niaive, you are looking at asking the various to completely change their whole way of thinking and breathing.

[Delta-SI]

Our first observation concerns a key failing across the BBC and the broadsheets: a virtual absence of communication to audiences about who Hamas actually are and what they represent. We ran a simple index looking for mentions of facts such as:

· Hamas does not recognise Israel
· Hamas calls for Israel’s destruction in its Charter
· Hamas refuses to renounce violence against Israelis
· Hamas has a history of violence against Israelis
· Hamas does not accept previous peace agreements between Israel and the Palestinians

The results are startling. Only 5% of news articles in the broadsheet newspapers made any reference to any of these indicators. Of 18 reports on the Today Programme, one made reference to Hamas’ Charter and the rest made no mention of any of the other indicators, and of ten programmes on the BBC Six and Ten O’clock news, only one included an interview excerpt with Tzipi Livni saying that Hamas ‘cannot accept my right to exist’. This was the only mention of any of the indicators by a quoted source or BBC correspondent. These findings indicate that the journalists behind these reports simply did not view these facts as relevant to the conflict.

Looking at the images in the media, only 4% of all the photographs published about the conflict in the first week depicted Hamas militancy and only one photograph of a rocket launcher appeared in the broadsheets. And in cartoons, more than 75% of all editorial cartoons published over the three-week conflict period depicted Israel as the aggressor, whereas only a quarter even featured depictions of armed Hamas fighters.

Another key failure specifically relates to our national broadcaster. The BBC consistently failed to make the crucial distinction between opinion and fact. The source of the confusion, to a significant extent, is the still highly ambiguous role of Jeremy Bowen: the Middle East ‘Editor.’ As an editor, Jeremy Bowen is permitted to ‘editorialise’ the news, which he does by rendering his reports highly personalised. All of which is fine, as long as any kind of editorialisation is clearly marked as an opinion piece. But this is not what the BBC does. In his daily Gaza diary on the BBC website, the Middle East Editor was given free reign to publish his own partial and emotive opinions. These demonstrated a clear sympathy with the Palestinian case and clear hostility towards Israeli perspectives. For example:

‘Back on 6 January I wrote in this diary about one of the most affecting pieces of video I had seen coming out of Gaza. For me, it is still the most memorable single image of the war. It showed a young Palestinian father kissing his dead baby son goodbye. He was murmuring farewells to his boy and I defy anyone to view it and not be profoundly moved. I was frustrated that I did not even know the names of the man and his son…But I wanted to know more about the man, much more. After a couple of days in Gaza I can tell you a great deal about him…And I am glad that I can finally put a name to a face.’ 23rd January 2009.

As well as a preponderance of entries focusing on personal stories of Palestinians, there was an unmistakable cynicism displayed towards Israel running through the series. On numerous occasions, he made reference to the ‘Israeli narrative’ and ‘Israeli message’, but never once referred to a Palestinian ‘narrative’ or ‘message’. The implication here is that Israeli positions are ‘versions’ and Palestinian positions are reality.

‘Israel has been able to put across its narrative, that it is acting in self defence and doing all it can not to kill civilians. But it has been countered by the sheer weight of images of suffering from Gaza, which have inspired protests across the world.’ 12 January 2009

‘I’m struck by the constant Israeli message that ‘any other country in the world would do the same’. Would they?’ 13 January 2009

Not once in all of the TV coverage we monitored did Mr Bowen tell the personal story of an Israeli. And nowhere in his diary was it made clear that this was his personal opinion and not that of the BBC.

The BBC Editor also slipped personal opinion into some of his news reports. For example, in the late night news on 27 December 2008, he made the assertion in the middle of a news report that

‘Hamas has not been part of the last year of negotiations between Israelis and Palestinians. The talks have largely ignored Gaza, which is a fundamental diplomatic failure.’

Whether the exclusion of Hamas (regarded by the EU and US as a terrorist organization) from last year’s negotiations constitutes a ‘fundamental diplomatic failure’ is a matter of opinion and not of fact.

And on the Ten O’Clock News on 5 January 2009:

‘Israel says it tries not to hurt them – all this is the fault of Hamas. Try telling that to the people in Gaza’s overwhelmed hospitals.’
Here, the use of the phrase ‘try telling that to’ is a subtle but effective way of conveying to the viewer that Israel’s assertions should be treated with suspicion or indifference.

Both of these examples constitute breaches of the BBC Editorial Guideline on impartiality:

‘Our journalists and presenters, including those in news and current affairs, may provide professional judgments but may not express personal opinions on matters of public policy or political or industrial controversy. Our audiences should not be able to tell from BBC programmes or other BBC output the personal views of our journalists and presenters on such matters.’

To their credit, the BBC’s news journalists did regularly report what life in Sderot was like and show images of rockets falling, one landing perilously close to Jeremy Bowen himself. Paul Wood especially deserves praise for his balance and detached perspective.

However, there was one other area where the BBC did not manage to convey crucial information to audiences: in acknowledging the deaths of Hamas terrorists as part of the overall casualty rate. Despite understandably heavy focus on Israel’s media ban, there was no mention until after the ceasefire of the danger that Hamas might be influencing the statistics and sources coming out of Gaza. And so each night, the BBC reeled off casualty figures sourced from ‘Palestinian medics’. Only on one occasion did the BBC TV evening news programmes break the figure down into civilian versus non-civilian casualties. 11% of broadcasts on the Today Programme broke down the figure. In contrast, of the 48 broadsheet articles which gave a figure for the number of Palestinians reportedly killed, 40% attempted to make the distinction. So the general impression made was that all casualties were civilian, rather than a combination of civilian and Hamas.

Improvements in coverage were certainly detected in some areas: in the amount of time and space allocated to quoting Israeli spokespeople; in the overall stance taken by the UK’s broadsheets in their editorial pieces (34% were classified as ‘neutral’ about Israel’s operation in Gaza, 32% took a ‘less favourable’ stance and 34% were ‘more favourable’) and in the BBC’s coverage of both perspectives of the conflict in its news reports. It was principally in Jeremy Bowen’s opinion pieces that the BBC did not provide balance

However, when it came to arguably some of the more influential areas of reporting, we detected serious shortcomings, particularly at the BBC. We have seen the privileging of reporters’ own opinions at the expense of a full presentation of the facts and issues. As a result, core journalistic principles have been compromised.

Intresting, to me at any rate, read.

[Comspec]

There is one major difference though between what happens there and what happens here!

You have to understand that religion is not just something that happens on a Friday/Sat/Sun (delete where applicable!) its a way of life. The religion dictates what you wear, what you eat, who you are seen with etc etc, so to purely look at changing that is niaive, you are looking at asking the various to completely change their whole way of thinking and breathing.

Absolutely I am.

When religion causes the death of children it has fundamental flaws, and needs to be changed, period.

To call ours a weekend religion is maybe a little naive tbh, but we'll let you away with that religious bigotry just this once ;)

and just because a religion does not move with the times, does not make it right btw......

[Jenni384]

I still canot believe that relgions are so competitive that they allow for members the other religions to be killed without banishing/excommunicating everyone involved......

This is why I'm not religious.
Having a faith is fine. And most faiths are based on loving God (whoever you deem that to be) and loving your neighbour. It's only when humans create a religion around it that they forget the essence of the teachings, and get all political, and letting stupid human issues get in the way, and start hurting each other.

I bet Jesus and Mohammed and Moses and Buddha are all sitting around in a metaphorical cafe somewhere bemoaning how most humans still don't get it.....

[Gillie]

Absolutely I am.

When religion causes the death of children it has fundamental flaws, and needs to be changed, period.

To call ours a weekend religion is maybe a little naive tbh, but we'll let you away with that religious bigotry just this once ;)

and just because a religion does not move with the times, does not make it right btw......

Oh come on Mark ... lots of Christians do nothing more than attend church every so often and very few of them live by any doctrine!

To understand the people involved in this is to understand that their religion is not just that, its their whole being and raison d'etre!

I have spent a lot of years discussing this whole issue, and you will find that most Jews will say that God is all pervading and we all share the same God, its just the peripherary that changes, whereas most other religions claim God is theirs and theirs alone, and that they have a divine right to wipe the Jews off the face of the earth!

I mean, come on, which religion and which country has actually NOT driven us out after using and abusing us. Back when this wonderful land was RC before good old Henry, it was against the Christian ways to handle money and to lend it, but it was ok then for them to use us Jews to do it for them, until one day some Bishop or other decided that us Jews had too much power handling the nations lending, so drove us out.

Ok rant over!!

[Jenni384]

you will find that most Jews will say that God is all pervading and we all share the same God, its just the peripherary that changes
Funny, my dad said that years ago, long before he converted to Judaism... :)

[Comspec]

It is the snobbish attitude that the Jewish religion has, as shown above missus, which has caused them to be alienated in lots of countries tbh.

Let's get back to the basics.... does your religion allow you to kill children? Because that is what Israel is doing, regardless of what the othrs are doing to initiate the conflict.

If your religion is an 'all loving' one as I assumed all religions were - does it not then put the onus upon religious leaders to find a way to sort the problem?

To prance around in their funny dresses, preaching, whilst children die is no way to run any religion tbh.

And me is not christian btw, probably would fall into the athiest camp if I thought religion was even important. But I understand that you cannot hide behind your religion when it takes the life of someone who does not believe what you do.

[Gillie]

I am far from a snob Mark ... I am merely displaying what is commonly known as a persecution complex ... history teaches us, stand still long enough and you will be blamed!

[Comspec]

I am far from a snob Mark ... I am merely displaying what is commonly known as a persecution complex ... history teaches us, stand still long enough and you will be blamed!

Being a snob and showing a snobbish attitude are different things m'lady ;)

Now, you say your religion has been persecuted for so long - why then are they not able to see others POV then, and why then can they not be a little understanding of others? they, of all people, should understand and be willing to listen.

I'm not knocking Israel here, or even your religion on its own, in fact I'd bomb the hell outta Gaza if they threatened anyone belonging to me...... but it is this hiding behind a religion to do all these things that I just cannot get.

Is there anyone anywhere, who is a Jew, who thinks that killing children is not something that should be done, regardless of provocation?

If they are so almighty powerful too - why not send the troops in and shoot the people they should be. It is cowardly to do it from the air imho.

I have no problem with people being killed, if they need it, but I hate to see innocent children being caught up in something they know nothing about.

[Gillie]

You Mark though are falling into the propoganda hands of Hamas!

Should you not be screaming at Hamas telling them to stop deliberately using children as shields?? Should action or sanctions not be used with them? The Israelis like anyone do not wish to kill children, but the alternative is to sit back and watch their own citizens be killed and just wish Hamas luck?

[Jenni384]

Should you not be screaming at Hamas telling them to stop deliberately using children as shields?? Should action or sanctions not be used with them? The Israelis like anyone do not wish to kill children, but the alternative is to sit back and watch their own citizens be killed and just wish Hamas luck?
And that's exactly why I don't get why everyone's being so hard on Israel, thereby tacitly supporting Hamas!

Sure, I'm no way condoning the shooting of innocents - by anyone, ever. But Hamas have to be at least 50% responsible...

[estwig]

Easy people, me luvs you all, but religion, on open forum??

[Comspec]

You Mark though are falling into the propoganda hands of Hamas!

Should you not be screaming at Hamas telling them to stop deliberately using children as shields?? Should action or sanctions not be used with them? The Israelis like anyone do not wish to kill children, but the alternative is to sit back and watch their own citizens be killed and just wish Hamas luck?

Send in the troops then, and stop the cowardly bombing.......

Me, if I have a problem with someone, I go to their front door. I don't drop **** down their chimney while their children are in the room.

[Gillie]

Send in the troops then, and stop the cowardly bombing.......

Me, if I have a problem with someone, I go to their front door. I don't drop **** down their chimney while their children are in the room.

But then the Israelis would be hectored for invading a country!

[Gillie]

Easy people, me luvs you all, but religion, on open forum??

Shurrup ... I like arguing with Mark!! :rolleyes:

[Comspec]

And what? they don't really care what the world says about them as it is.

The only way to solve their situation is an all out war tbh, and that will involve troops. 2 Sides who cannot ever agree must be ruled by one or the other.

I didn't ignore the fact that Hamas are using the children as shields btw, but I do so hate to see the little mites being injured. to cause this, and say 'they done it' smacks of schoolyard arguments.

[Comspec]

Shurrup ... I like arguing with Mark!! :rolleyes:

.......and the booger called me a fairy by pm.... so my winding is getting me somewhere :D :D

[Delta-SI]

But then the Israelis would be hectored for invading a country!
Sadly that does seem to be the only way. I would support them, hell I would join up for the IDF if I was younger (have you seen the women!).

[Eagle]

Both nations are equally worthless.

[Gillie]

.......and the booger called me a fairy by pm.... so my winding is getting me somewhere :D :D

Now you see I could claim yet again persecution of Jews as actually you were the one that started abusing me firstly dearest one, so put a sock in it!! :eek:

But you say on one hand you want them to sit and understand each other and cease and then you say start an all out war ... which one Mark?? Make your mind up time!

[Gillie]

Both nations are equally worthless.

Bit like that comment!

[Comspec]

It's one or the other Gill tbh. If you cannot sit down and sort it, then you gotta have an all out war.

this droppping Yankee bombs is no way to run a war.... you gotta go in with troops and selectively shoot everyone who disagrees.

i'm not advocating it, merely stating that it is the only other option in the event of agreement not being reached.

[Dawg]

By any standards the IDF goes to extraordinary lengths to avoid civilian casualties. Had it been the Brit or American forces attacking in a similar exercise the collateral damages, (dead civilians), would have been far greater.

Now, for the edification of certain readers, here is a picture of a young woman in the IDF. She is obviously searching the skies for larger phallic shaped objects.

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/8351/israeliarmygirls08ru9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[estwig]

Stop it

:):):)

[Comspec]

Agreed, this is not really going anywhere :)

I agree though M.... the Yanks would have probably have killed half the Brits, with their 'friendly fire' ;)

Now where was the 'make love not war' thread.... ? :D

[Gillie]

Agreed, this is not really going anywhere :)

I agree though M.... the Yanks would have probably have killed half the Brits, with their 'friendly fire' ;)

Now where was the 'make love not war' thread.... ? :D

Yep circles that never get any smaller! Hence me stopping once the worthless comment was thrown in!

[Eagle]

Bit like that comment!
In the context of both nations actions... :rolleyes:

[estwig]

Look I see you all at the bottom of this page and I am having the last word.

Stop it

:):):)

[Gillie]

Look I see you all at the bottom of this page and I am having the last word.

Stop it

:):):)


Is that a challenge? To me??

Pah!!

[Eagle]

Had it been the Brit or American forces attacking in a similar exercise the collateral damages, (dead civilians), would have been far greater.
Please don't place Yank forces even in the same league as the British.

[estwig]

You don't get up early enough Darling!!!

;)

[estwig]

stop It

.............

[Gillie]

You don't get up early enough Darling!!!

;)

Yes grandad!

[estwig]

Yes grandad!

Don't take it out on me!!!

me luvs you all!!!

:):):):)

[Dawg]

Please don't place Yank forces even in the same league as the British.

Wouldn't think of it. They, (the Americans), have better equipment, training, conditions, backup; most things really to make them a better fighting force. The Brits have the fury and morale of the squaddies, (I don't know what effect these men will have upon the enemy, but, by God, they frighten me. Wellington.), but not a lot more. And jelly bellied flag flapping doesn't win wars.

[estwig]

Is stop it so difficult???

[DuaneJackson]

Good evening. Can I interest anyone in some award winning accounting software?

[dp0848]

Good evening. Can I interest anyone in some award winning accounting software?

SPAM!

You promoting Sage again Duane?

[Delta-SI]

What, Sage?

[dp0848]

Ha, beat you to it Delta.

[DuaneJackson]

Two reported, offensive posts removed. Please play nicely

You promoting Sage again Duane?
That's offensive too, but I wouldn't dare remove it!

[dp0848]

How about this one Duane? :D:D:D

http://www.balgowanfc.com/Sage_Logo_GIF1.gif

[Delta-SI]

Ha, beat you to it Delta.

I Am on my iPod touch, hence the slow typing :p

[DuaneJackson]

How about this one Duane? :D:D:D

Well I heard they're getting a Darwin Award for Sage Live : )

Right, bedski.

[stugster]

Sterilise them all.

[Dawg]

Sterilise them all.

Yes Stuart. The last bunch who suggested mass sterilization and other Eugenic based solutions still get a bad press tho', and those weeny little moustaches never really have become fashion icons again have they?

[stugster]

They'll get over it eventually.

[sysuser786]

hi guys, sorry for an unrelated post, but i need to get a msg to Duane Jackson as i know he is reading this thread...SORRY!

Duane, i'm trying to get hold of any mods who can deal with my problem, but no one has replied yet...PLS CHECK YOUR PM as i've sent you one.

PLS HELP ME..

thanks

[Delta-SI]

hi guys, sorry for an unrelated post, but i need to get a msg to Duane Jackson as i know he is reading this thread...SORRY!

Duane, i'm trying to get hold of any mods who can deal with my problem, but no one has replied yet...PLS CHECK YOUR PM as i've sent you one.

PLS HELP ME..

thanks

Maybe you should send a message to Duane then? He's probably more likely to read his own PM box than he is some random thread.

[sysuser786]

yes thanks delta...done PM already. You see for some reason mate i'm not getting a reply from mods and thats the only reason i posted here...sorry again..

[Delta-SI]

It's a conspiracy then....

Are you sending them PMs about your PMs being broken? Or is your inbox full.

[sysuser786]

no delta, its something else...my pm box is not full..

[Dawg]

My PMs broken. Useless one eyed Scotch git.

[swisslogistics]

Its fair to say most of you dont have a clue, some like Dawg take the time to do some digging or have a decent memory...my mistake was I made this post just before I left for HK and have not bothered to keep up with it...

Dawg you are correct about my error about the Balfour Act...it should be the Balfour Declaration...this was a mistake I made intentionally for the following reason, anyone that wanted to debunk what I said would have had to have done some digging or at least know of the Balfour Declaration....

The Balfour Declaration for those that dont know states the following:

Foreign Office

November 2nd, 1917


Dear Lord Rothschild,

I have much pleasure in conveying to you. on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet:

His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.
I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation. Yours,

Arthur James Balfour


For all the people out there that belive in the star of david...please understand that you have been scammed...There is no such thing, the 'Star of David' has been the family crest of the Rothschild family for a very long time... The Zionist Jews payed for in money and in the blood of other jews in order to obtain sympathy in order to return to 'the promised land'.

Lets do a little experiment shall we...

Use google, yahoo, or anything else, and find out from which tribe/religion/region the first terrorist was from...they were Jewish.

Why not look into Irgun Zvai Leumi & Lohamei Herut Israel who make Hamaz, Hezbollah and the majority of all other terrorist organisations look like babies.

These guys were responsible for the slaughter of British, Palestinian and Jewish people and its all documented.

Isreal cant exist in the minds and hearts of REAL JEWS for the simply fact that they belive its creation can only happen when the promised messiah returns...for me that is not Mr Rothschild.

DELTA PI... I do not support terrorism...I find it quite hard to understand how you came to such a stupid conclusion from what I said, if you are such a security analyst why dont you analyze why Hamas and Hezbollah and the PLO etc etc exist?

They didnt just wake up one morning and think hey lets go blow up a bus or kill someone, they do it because they are upset about something, and until that core issue is addressed there can be no peace.

Isreal was created out of a place called Palestine, it was allowed to happen by those that had been bought out by the likes of Mr Rothschild who even to this day has more control over the economy than our government, there were many many people, decent Brits who opposed the creation of Isreal and who felt that there was a dark and sinister motive to all this, but they were sidelined and ignored.

The Zionist terrorist organisations killed and ethnically cleansed Palestine and the world looked on, it still looks on.

I dont have anything against Jews...they are people of the book, and they are human beings, but Zionists...those that cause chaos in order to then bring order, those like Mr Rothschild need to be bought to book, only thing is, in this world they never will, but even these guys will one day meet their lord and have to answer for what they did.

Please dont even bother replying to this thread unless you know what you are talking about and have done your homework first.

[dave_n]

Yes Stuart. The last bunch who suggested mass sterilization and other Eugenic based solutions still get a bad press tho', and those weeny little moustaches never really have become fashion icons again have they?

like winston churchill?

[Delta-SI]

I have a fair bit of experience in this field (more than 11 years worth) and Hamas are a terrorist organisation. There is no denying it. Also FYI, It's SI, not PI.

When ever someone starts using the word Zionists as an insult I tend to find they are very qualified to wear some kinf of tin foil head covering.

[dave_n]

wtf is a zionist?

[swisslogistics]

The only thing you have been doing is following orders like a good little solider.

11 years...is that all you can come back with...11 poxy years, you werent even born when this whole thing was planned and executed and you are telling me because you have 11 years worth of marching experiance you are well equipped to come on here and talk about Zionists.

Delta-SI ....how creative...

Hes taken the Delta from the Delta Force to whom he probably looks up to even tho they are a joke, and SI he uses for Security and Inteligence, I bet you couldnt provide the security and you certainly dont have any inteligence!

Stick to PI...you sound like a Magnum kinda guy.

[swisslogistics]

A Zionist...google it, they exist, its not a term that I am using to offend someone, it is actually a term... what it means I leave to those that have the balls to open their eyes and take in information instead of what gets said on Sky and FOX.

[dave_n]

The only thing you have been doing is following orders like a good little solider.

that's very insulting - it's these 'good little soldiers' that have died in the past so that people like you and me can talk about sensitive subjects in the open.

[swisslogistics]

Taken out of context and is another debate in its own right.

My intention was to put in place DELTA PI...if he had ANY security or intel experiance 11years would not have made him say what he did, unless he was your run of the mill bog standard solider who will follow any order be it legal or ilegal.

[dave_n]

do u have something against bog standard soldiers?

hey i guess its better than encouraging children to strap bombs to themselves and kill innocent people

[swisslogistics]

Read what I say and then respond, dont just go off on one!

[Jenni384]

The only thing you have been doing is following orders like a good little solider.

11 years...is that all you can come back with...11 poxy years, you werent even born when this whole thing was planned and executed and you are telling me because you have 11 years worth of marching experiance you are well equipped to come on here and talk about Zionists.

Delta-SI ....how creative...

Hes taken the Delta from the Delta Force to whom he probably looks up to even tho they are a joke, and SI he uses for Security and Inteligence, I bet you couldnt provide the security and you certainly dont have any inteligence!

Stick to PI...you sound like a Magnum kinda guy.

How dare you belittle what he has done with such words? you don't know him or what he has done.

I find your post very insulting indeed.

[Delta-SI]

The only thing you have been doing is following orders like a good little solider.

11 years...is that all you can come back with...11 poxy years, you werent even born when this whole thing was planned and executed and you are telling me because you have 11 years worth of marching experiance you are well equipped to come on here and talk about Zionists.

Delta-SI ....how creative...

Hes taken the Delta from the Delta Force to whom he probably looks up to even tho they are a joke, and SI he uses for Security and Inteligence, I bet you couldnt provide the security and you certainly dont have any inteligence!

Stick to PI...you sound like a Magnum kinda guy.

Sorry I don't have 11 years worth of marching experience I have 11 years worth of experience dealing with counter terrorism. Including time I have been to Iraq, Afghan, and indeed even Israel. Pray tell how many times you have been there?

Hamas are an organisation that conducts operations against civilians, not limited to bombings through the use of suicide bombers, shootings and improvised explosive devices. Ergo they are a terrorist organsation (and recognised by most countries in the world as such).

The use of the word Delta in my company name is taken from the Greek not because of Delta Force (or SOFD-D as they are more properly known).

The security and intelligence parts of my company name are because they are an integral part of the services I offer.

I do feel that people who resort to character assassination to win an argument do so because they realise there is something lacking in their own argument.

[dave_n]

lol...i haven't gone off one...yet

[swisslogistics]

My intention is not to pee people off, its just that I hate it when people shut down and just accept what they are being fed in the media, most on here are adults, all have internet access why not look into the problem and see for yourselves what is really going on.

Both sides are in essence making things worse and worse, but to blame the palestinans...that my freinds is low...

[Delta-SI]

Taken out of context and is another debate in its own right.

My intention was to put in place DELTA PI...if he had ANY security or intel experiance 11years would not have made him say what he did, unless he was your run of the mill bog standard solider who will follow any order be it legal or ilegal.

I have plenty of int & sy experience, if people want to PM me I would be more than willing to supply it to them, or they can phone me on 0203 3970760 and I will talk about it with them.

With reference to your comment about "bog standard soldiers", well sir, the British army doesn't have any bog standard soldiers, only exceptional ones.

[Delta-SI]

My intention is not to pee people off, its just that I hate it when people shut down and just accept what they are being fed in the media, most on here are adults, all have internet access why not look into the problem and see for yourselves what is really going on.

Both sides are in essence making things worse and worse, but to blame the palestinans...that my freinds is low...

Well you have f8**ed that up then.

Are you George Galloway?

[swisslogistics]

So you are a expert in these matters.

Why was Hamas formed?

What made these bunch of nutters get together?

Was it not the fact that there homes had been ripped off, the fact they were sent to refugee camps, the fact that to this day, all they are asking for is somewhere they can call home?

And then to bomb a refugee camp when people protest (call it terrorism if you want) where are the refugees supposed to go....

Out of the WHOLE thing all you choose to say is Hamas is a terrorist organistation.

Even I would agree that Hamas, Hezbollah, Isreal, USA, and others are terrorists, big deal.

Lets discuss the cause not those that have formed to resist.

[dave_n]

i think the problem may be down to much more than the palestinians/israel issue.

people will undoubtedly associate palestinians with terrorism and the UK has started to breed, home and be affected by terrorism.

many people see islam/muslims as the main threat to world peace at the moment and they will look at the palestinian issue with that in the forefront of their minds.

[swisslogistics]

You arnt any security specialist mate... you may have served in the forces and you may have read a few books, but expert you are not.

And the first thing you are taught when you join the service...if you have even joined... operate as the grey man... youve certainly done that havent you!

Not a clue!

[Delta-SI]

I am not an "expert", I actually specialise more in middle eastern terrorism than I do in Hamas, however anyone who uses children as human shields, or creates a cartoon character encouraging children to "kill Zionists" by suicide bombs, using ambulances to transport troops and the like are, indeed, terrorists.

I care not why Hamas formed, nor what they want, only what they are doing to achieve these goals.

[Gillie]

Its fair to say most of you dont have a clue, some like Dawg take the time to do some digging or have a decent memory...my mistake was I made this post just before I left for HK and have not bothered to keep up with it...

Dawg you are correct about my error about the Balfour Act...it should be the Balfour Declaration...this was a mistake I made intentionally for the following reason, anyone that wanted to debunk what I said would have had to have done some digging or at least know of the Balfour Declaration....

The Balfour Declaration for those that dont know states the following:

Foreign Office

November 2nd, 1917


Dear Lord Rothschild,

I have much pleasure in conveying to you. on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet:

His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.
I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation. Yours,

Arthur James Balfour


For all the people out there that belive in the star of david...please understand that you have been scammed...There is no such thing, the 'Star of David' has been the family crest of the Rothschild family for a very long time... The Zionist Jews payed for in money and in the blood of other jews in order to obtain sympathy in order to return to 'the promised land'.

Lets do a little experiment shall we...

Use google, yahoo, or anything else, and find out from which tribe/religion/region the first terrorist was from...they were Jewish.

Why not look into Irgun Zvai Leumi & Lohamei Herut Israel who make Hamaz, Hezbollah and the majority of all other terrorist organisations look like babies.

These guys were responsible for the slaughter of British, Palestinian and Jewish people and its all documented.

Isreal cant exist in the minds and hearts of REAL JEWS for the simply fact that they belive its creation can only happen when the promised messiah returns...for me that is not Mr Rothschild.

DELTA PI... I do not support terrorism...I find it quite hard to understand how you came to such a stupid conclusion from what I said, if you are such a security analyst why dont you analyze why Hamas and Hezbollah and the PLO etc etc exist?

They didnt just wake up one morning and think hey lets go blow up a bus or kill someone, they do it because they are upset about something, and until that core issue is addressed there can be no peace.

Isreal was created out of a place called Palestine, it was allowed to happen by those that had been bought out by the likes of Mr Rothschild who even to this day has more control over the economy than our government, there were many many people, decent Brits who opposed the creation of Isreal and who felt that there was a dark and sinister motive to all this, but they were sidelined and ignored.

The Zionist terrorist organisations killed and ethnically cleansed Palestine and the world looked on, it still looks on.

I dont have anything against Jews...they are people of the book, and they are human beings, but Zionists...those that cause chaos in order to then bring order, those like Mr Rothschild need to be bought to book, only thing is, in this world they never will, but even these guys will one day meet their lord and have to answer for what they did.

Please dont even bother replying to this thread unless you know what you are talking about and have done your homework first.


Dear Mr Know it All ... sorry but you need to leave this thread now, as by your own words unless you know what you are talking about you shouldnt post!

The Star of David or ma'gan david its earliest use was back in the middle ages as was then referred to as the Shield of David, but in fact the symbol has been around for much longer and should you have done your homework would know that it can be found after the blessing Amidah which was written a lot of centuries ago, so to therefore claim its a Rothchild invention is crap!

As for a lot of your other statements, I am too in awe of your ignorance to even comment!

[Delta-SI]

You arnt any security specialist mate... you may have served in the forces and you may have read a few books, but expert you are not.

And the first thing you are taught when you join the service...if you have even joined... operate as the grey man... youve certainly done that havent you!

Not a clue!

Actually, if you had bothered to ask, I have only been a part of the army (TA I will admit) for a short while. The rest of my life have been sent with the police, and I can prove it to anyone who would care to see proof.
Maybe you should find things out before you attempt to judge people.

[swisslogistics]

Now im getting somewhere.

Gillie...im sorry for doing it again, but that was an intentional 'error' that was placed to find the one that would spot it...you know more than most others on this thread.

The reason you cant comment on what I have said is because its truth.

Everything I have stated can be independantly verified on the internet from reliable sources. I have access to children of holocaust survivors who will say the same as I do...therefore I cant be far off the truth, and I am open to serious, honest, and civilised debate on this matter as there are alot of people on here that simply dont know what they are talking about.

[Delta-SI]

Everything I have stated can be independantly verified on the internet from reliable sources. I have access to children of holocaust survivors who will say the same as I do...therefore I cant be far off the truth, and I am open to serious, honest, and civilised debate on this matter as there are alot of people on here that simply dont know what they are talking about.

Hmm where was that when you started your character assassination on myself?

My telephone has not yet rung with yourself on the end either...

[swisslogistics]

So Gillie...

Being Jewish...tell me...do you belive that Mr Rothschild is the messiah, and because of his arrival the Jewish homeland/promised land has materialised?

Oh and by the way Rothschild started using the ma'gan david when they were in Germany and he used to hang it outside.

I know what im talking about and I love it when I get to speak to others who do actaully know... this may be intresting now!

[Gillie]

The reason I SEEK not to comment was the mere fact my temper is boiling at the moment at your totally off hand way of dismissing the whole set up and history and distorting it to your way of propoganda, and if your aim was as you say to catch out someone ie me then again I do not appreciate your manner of a debate.

Better to state your arguments for debate without the need to abuse a nation!

[Gillie]

So Gillie...

Being Jewish...tell me...do you belive that Mr Rothschild is the messiah, and because of his arrival the Jewish homeland/promised land has materialised?

Oh and by the way Rothschild started using the ma'gan david when they were in Germany and he used to hang it outside.

I know what im talking about and I love it when I get to speak to others who do actaully know... this may be intresting now!

When you cease with frivolities such as those mentioned above and wish for a serious debate I will partake.

[swisslogistics]

I didnt start any assination on anyone...its just that you claimed to have 11 years of experiance and I probed exactly what kind of experaince that was.

[Delta-SI]

Yes and I told you, and can verify it. Maybe you would like to offer a rebuttal and then let us know what exactly you have experienced in your 24 years of life?

[dave_n]

no-one needs to be an expert on anything to join in a debate...forums are about peoples opinions and not necessarily their subject matter expertise.

[swisslogistics]

Funny how people react when the truth hits them smack bang wollop!

No propoganda at all or frivolities, at least not on my part.

Isreal..the media...the spin...the scams into making people belive the victims are the enemys thats what you call propoganda and that is what the zionists are expert at.

Im just a kid who knows alot because I read, I listen to reason and am open for debate, I will only ever use fact that can be independantly verified and as such I challenge any one of you to highlight items that you disagree with AND can prove that I am wrong with evidence, if you can do this I will put my hands up and say im wrong...thing is why wont you do the same?

[Gillie]

Funny how people react when the truth hits them smack bang wollop!

No propoganda at all or frivolities, at least not on my part.

Isreal..the media...the spin...the scams into making people belive the victims are the enemys thats what you call propoganda and that is what the zionists are expert at.

Im just a kid who knows alot because I read, I listen to reason and am open for debate, I will only ever use fact that can be independantly verified and as such I challenge any one of you to highlight items that you disagree with AND can prove that I am wrong with evidence, if you can do this I will put my hands up and say im wrong...thing is why wont you do the same?

Yes very good reading you do ... to even suggest that Rothchild is the messiah!!

[swisslogistics]

In my 24 years of life...27 actaully but we can run with your figure, I have often seen how the media shows what its wants to show with little regard to the actualy facts on the ground, this has lead me away from Fox and Sky to books, to history, to logic, to Port Cullis (the house of lords database) I have requested and paid for documents that date back to the start of this issue, ive read for and against, ive verified and made sure that sources are trustworthy and then ive sat back and ive made up my own views as to what is going on, therefore like I said earlier if anyone can counterprove my arguments then I would be more than willing to adapt...as that is the way of the world, we evolve, I will not however listen to people who are just repeating what they have heard on the TV.

[Delta-SI]

So you have never been to Israel or Palestine?

Biography24 years old, Logistics BSc Graduate, Expert In Product Sourcing & Manufacture in Hong Kong/China

Maybe you would care to counter prove my experience in this field as you were quite vocal earlier...

[swisslogistics]

No Gillie...

Its you that does very BAD reading as I clearly ASKED YOU if you thought he was YOUR messiah!

If he is not and the messiah has not come forth than according to your own religion, scriptures or torah isreal cannot exist!

So if Rothschild is not your messiah and your messiah has not come forth then please explain to me why on earth there is a place called Isreal? unless of course it is the result of the Zionist plan to take over Palestine and do as they please.

No REAL JEW and I mean PRACTISING will ever accept Isreal, I persoanlly know lots that dont!

[Delta-SI]

So is Gillie a pretend Jew then? What about my jewish friends?

[swisslogistics]

where I have been is none of your concern... and I dont need to travel to isreal or palestine in order to know what is happening on the ground, thats visable in the media, the reasons are not.

[Dawg]

Another 'intentional' error. Complete teenage bilge. Do you think you are playing to a Monty Python Twatfest fan club? About something that people are dying for? You are just behaving like a complete arse.
The whole situation out there is vastly more complex than can ever be discussed on a UK Business Forum, but to try and claim special knowledge whilst denigrating others is dim.
Hamas was born out of frustration at the complete moral bankruptcy of Fatah, also at the refusal of all the Arab nations to give any active support, or decent conditions to the Palestinians. It coincided with a growth in political Islamism, which is used as a vehicle to further it's aims. These aims, strangely enough, seem to marry up with the aims of the major gangster families in Gaza and the West Bank.
I'm won't exonerate the Israelis: they have allowed some appalling things to happen in the name of realpolitik, they accept the loony tune religious settler movement and they behave badly at times. But Israel is the only functioning democracy in the middle east, and as a whole is a model of good behaviour compared to it's neighbours. And they have formed a successful state without oil, without feudal lords, and without mad mullahs. Me, I'm for that side of things.
Or maybe we should condone doing a Zimbabwe. Let people nick all the land that has been developed and let it sink into desert again.

[Gillie]

No Gillie...

Its you that does very BAD reading as I clearly ASKED YOU if you thought he was YOUR messiah!

If he is not and the messiah has not come forth than according to your own religion, scriptures or torah isreal cannot exist!

So if Rothschild is not your messiah and your messiah has not come forth then please explain to me why on earth there is a place called Isreal? unless of course it is the result of the Zionist plan to take over Palestine and do as they please.

No REAL JEW and I mean PRACTISING will ever accept Isreal, I persoanlly know lots that dont!

Oh so now I aint even a practising Jewess or even a real one??

Codshwhallop!!

You of course know this for a fact do you that real jews, gawd, it sounds like one of those adverts for a he man thing, don't accept Israel, you have managed to canvass all of them have you?

[Delta-SI]

But I thought the media weren't to be trusted and twisted and bent things for their own cause?

So to sum up, you are 27, have never left the UK (save maybe for some kind of holiday, to Europe) and are getting all of your information from the media (but the one you trust).

[swisslogistics]

Come on Delta...lets debate the matter at hand, dont look to exit by sidelining the argument, get stuck in, after all youve been to isreal and palestine so many times you must have loads to say...ive never been but I know a thing or two about the subject but for someone that is a vetran traveller you must know loads.

[Delta-SI]

Come on Delta...lets debate the matter at hand, dont look to exit by sidelining the argument, get stuck in, after all youve been to isreal and palestine so many times you must have loads to say...ive never been but I know a thing or two about the subject but for someone that is a vetran traveller you must know loads.

No kid you were the one who sidelined it. So now it''s time for you to put up or shut up.

Obviously with reference to this comment "after all youve been to isreal and palestine so many times you must have loads to say." I said I have been to Israel (by the way I can spell it, just like I can Palestine) not Palestine so maybe you read a lot but you don't comprehend it.

[swisslogistics]

LOL!!!

Some arguments...god you guys goto do better than this.

Gillie...dont avoid my question just answer it, if Rothschild is not the messiah and he has not come forth than HOW CAN ISREAL EXIST.

I dont have anything against Isreal, its there, its a fact, what I cant stand is that fact that people think the victims...the palestinans are the ones to blame for this mess...they are not.

[swisslogistics]

Aww Delta...is that all youve got?

After all those vists...I was hoping for some ground breaking info...whats wrong a kid got the better of you?

[Delta-SI]

All of what visits, I have been there once for a few months. Again you are resorting to character assassination. Are you sure that is a game you wish to play with me? Because I play hard....

[Gillie]

You are now displaying your total lack of knowledge of my religion and showing a great deal of disrespect, and looking back through this debate no one has blamed palestinians they have blamed Hamas, unless of course everyone is part of that set up over there, however, as I aint canvassed and asked them I will not speculate unlike you!

[Robs]

Have i come to the wrong forum!!!!! for a moment i thought i stumbled upon a searchlight political website!

I'm sure if it was the IRA firing 80 rockets a day into brittish terriortry! would we just sit there and take it, nope we wouldnt. thats why we are fighting Al qaeada and taliban, Labour sent the troops there. so you mad searchlight labour lefties should look closer to home ask your self would we put up with it.

the shoe on the other foot principle.

[swisslogistics]

Dawg...some valid points...but your vastily complex ...complex is doing my nut in.

Northern Ireland was complex but they solved it.
Flying was complex but they solved it.
South Africa was complex but they solved it.
Getting to the moon was complex but they solved it.

Dont give me the complex line...please!

Every complex solution can be solved...it just depends if there is a will to solve it.

[Gillie]

Dawg...some valid points...but your vastily complex ...complex is doing my nut in.

Northern Ireland was complex but they solved it.
Flying was complex but they solved it.
South Africa was complex but they solved it.
Getting to the moon was complex but they solved it.

Dont give me the complex line...please!

Every complex solution can be solved...it just depends if there is a will to solve it.

OMG here we go again ... your very first point is crap!! It aint totally solved and if you were an expert on that one as well, you would know that ...

[dave_n]

in NI there was a mutual will to solve the issue....there isn't one between pal and israel...and that's why it wil go on and on and on until israel wipes out the whole of palestine

[swisslogistics]

How dare you...

I have MANY jewish freinds so I take what you just said very personally, I have never and will never insult any ones religion just as I would object to anyone insulting mine, however I asked of you a very simple question, and because you know the answer to that question and you also know that the answer invalidates current Isreal you just twist this to your favour.

For your information...

HAMAS was created by the palestinians.
HAMAS is made up of palestinians.
HAMAS was elected into government by the palestinians.
HAMAS is palestinian.

They may do some bad, but they do alot more good for their people, if they choose to resist then so be it, it is wrong to hurt innocent people, but in all honesty I think they have gone too far now...they just dont care, but then neither does Isreal hence why this is such a mess.

[lesliedocherty]

But didn't Israel build the country up on a slither of land surrounded by people that want to wipe them off the face of the earth?

Okay, with hindsight not the best place to build your country!

i reckon they should just do paper, scissors, rock and winner takes all

[swisslogistics]

Lol...who said I was an expert on NI...im not, never have been, and if you look at it from the point of veiw that there are not more bombings, there are no more murders, there has been a major decommisioning of arms...in my book the problem is solved...maybe not all of it...but 80%, can you say the same about the middle east?

Every time there is a road map isreal decides to build a wall!

[Gillie]

I dare because its true! You show a total lack of respect as in you saying that because Jews believe in the state of Israel they therefore cannot be true Jews!

You insult my beliefs and my intelligence with such generalisations and wild comments.

[Gillie]

Lol...who said I was an expert on NI...im not, never have been, and if you look at it from the point of veiw that there are not more bombings, there are no more murders, there has been a major decommisioning of arms...in my book the problem is solved...maybe not all of it...but 80%, can you say the same about the middle east?

Every time there is a road map isreal decides to build a wall!

You know for a fact then that there are no more secular murders do you?

Sorry WRONG!!

[Delta-SI]

How dare you... Quite easily

I have MANY jewish freinds I bet you don't talk to them like thisso I take what you just said very personally Good, I have never and will never insult any ones religion Just them personally, calling their life and stuff into question just as I would object to anyone insulting mine, however I asked of you a very simple question, and because you know the answer to that question and you also know that the answer invalidates current Isreal Israel you just twist this to your favour.

For your information...

HAMAS was created by the palestinians. Palestinians
HAMAS is made up of palestinians. Palestinians
HAMAS was elected into government by the palestinians. Palestinians
HAMAS is palestinian. Palestinians

The IRA was set up by the Irish, it was made up of Irish, are all Irish terrorists? No, are all IRA terrorists? Yes. Are Hamas Terrorists? YES
They may do some bad, but they do alot more good for their people, if they choose to resist then so be it, it is wrong to hurt innocent people, but in all honesty I think they have gone too far now...they just dont care, but then neither does Isreal Israel hence why this is such a mess.


My comments are in red.

[swisslogistics]

Not at all... 80% down tho!

[Delta-SI]

Lol...who said I was an expert on NI...im not, never have been, and if you look at it from the point of veiw that there are not more bombings, there are no more murders

No you are clearly just an expert on posting your own, frankly uneducated opinion. There are still bombings in NI, attacks on members of the security forces, kneecappings, under car booby traps and indeed murders. But as long as you think it's solved that's all OK.

[swisslogistics]

DETLA PI... nice ...again your 11 years coming into play!!!

Gillie...get over it... read the Torah... see what it says about Isreal and when it will be formed according to the Torah... if you dont belive in the basic fundametals of your book then so be it, im only pointing out FACT that is stated by YOUR book.

[Dawg]

You'd never insult anyone's religion? You just have you klutz. How do you think Johnny '72 Raisin' Muslim would react if I asked if Mohammed Ali was his messiah? Anyway, this insulting religion thing is the cause of so much of all trouble: Insulting religion should be compulsory. I defend my right to offend you.

[swisslogistics]

Right people ...DELTA is now a NI expert as well as the middle east..is this guy for real?

[dave_n]

You'd never insult anyone's religion? You just have you klutz. How do you think Johnny '72 Raisin' Muslim would react if I asked if Mohammed Ali was his messiah? Anyway, this insulting religion thing is the cause of so much of all trouble: Insulting religion should be compulsory. I defend my right to offend you.

it's a shame fuzzy's not danish!

[swisslogistics]

Well Dawg....

If you think im insulting anyone that is your oppinion.

I am not and have no intention of it...im asking a question...

If someone asks me about my religion I will answer...with fact...

Here I have highlighted the FACT that the Jewish book the Torah states that when the promised messiah arrives he will gather the lost sheep of isreal and take them to the promised land (or thereabouts) therefore I am asking if Balfour and Rothschild ...the creators of the current Irsreal are the messaih?

[Delta-SI]

DETLA PI... nice ...again your 11 years coming into play!!!

Right people ...DELTA is now a NI expert as well as the middle east..is this guy for real?

And there you go again. Maybe you could attack what I have said instead of me personally. As you actually have no idea of who I am or what I know. As I said, I am just knowledgeable about Middle Eastern terrorism. However I am aware of ongoing troubles in the province, I don't just ignore it all because the information comes in useful and also because there is an element of the IRA in some middle eastern terrorism...

[Delta-SI]

Maybe you could show me where I claimed to be an expert on NI?

[dave_n]

Well Dawg....

If you think im insulting anyone that is your oppinion.

I am not and have no intention of it...im asking a question...

If someone asks me about my religion I will answer...with fact...

Here I have highlighted the FACT that the Jewish book the Torah states that when the promised messiah arrives he will gather the lost sheep of isreal and take them to the promised land (or thereabouts) therefore I am asking if Balfour and Rothschild ...the creators of the current Irsreal are the messaih?

any religious literature can be ripped to shreds to disprove anything you like....
I imagine the bible can....and the quoran....

[Dawg]

Well Dawg....

If you think im insulting anyone that is your oppinion.

I am not and have no intention of it...im asking a question...

If someone asks me about my religion I will answer...with fact...

Here I have highlighted the FACT that the Jewish book the Torah states that when the promised messiah arrives he will gather the lost sheep of isreal and take them to the promised land (or thereabouts) therefore I am asking if Balfour and Rothschild ...the creators of the current Irsreal are the messaih?

If thats the level of your debate I'm out of here. It would be dull from a fourteen year old. "De Torah says dis, nyah nyah." FFS.

[swisslogistics]

You shouldnt take the mick out of peoples holy books.

The bible, the torah, and the quran have more inside them then most know.

Read them, try and understand them and you will get far in life, they preach peace, love and care for humanity, the exact opposite of what people who twist their words have been doing for too long (from ALL religions).

If you dont belive in god and think we transformed from a cosmic accident to a microbe and then to humans well...thats another debate but for my liking a bit too much of a co-incidence.

[swisslogistics]

Dave...I dont think you have ever tested that statement about ripping to shreads a holy book to disprove something...let me restate the very basics of this whole debate.... FACT IS FACT... it cannot be falsified.

I work on logic and fact and that is what drives people nuts because its the two things that put those in the wrong in the dock!

[Delta-SI]

Again Khalid posts a nonsensicle reply that does nothing to address the points of other posters.

You shouldnt take the mick out of peoples holy books.

The bible, the torah, and the quran have more inside them then most know.

Read them, try and understand them and you will get far in life, they preach peace, love and care for humanity, the exact opposite of what people who twist their words have been doing for too long (from ALL religions).

If you dont belive in god and think we transformed from a cosmic accident to a microbe and then to humans well...thats another debate but for my liking a bit too much of a co-incidence.

[lesliedocherty]

swiss mate, is it not past your bedtime, go get a hot chocolate and get your mum to tuck you up, read you a bedtime history lesson and drift off to ****-land, xx

[dave_n]

actually you should take the mick out of anyones holy books...no literature in the world is sacrosanct....if you are that unsure of it's content then don't publish it.

[Robs]

I Have to say Delta-si know's his stuff!

[Delta-SI]

swiss mate, is it not past your bedtime, go get a hot chocolate and get your mum to tuck you up, read you a bedtime history lesson and drift off to ****-land, xx

Is he not already there?

[dave_n]

Dave...I dont think you have ever tested that statement about ripping to shreads a holy book to disprove something...let me restate the very basics of this whole debate.... FACT IS FACT... it cannot be falsified.

I work on logic and fact and that is what drives people nuts because its the two things that put those in the wrong in the dock!

life is far too short to go around checking the validity of dodgy publications....i'm a little bit sad...but not that sad!

[swisslogistics]

Delta... may know his stuff... ive yet to see any of it...when I do...il sing his praises too!

Leslie... you are right it is past my bedtime and I shall now retire with a cup of hot choc to sleep, im sorry for doing anyones head in, certainly not my intention, but I feel very strongly about this topic as for too long ive let people who dont know whats really going on just say there 2p's worth and let it go, this time ive opened up a pandoras box and who knows where it may lead.

Some will say ignore the idiot, others will go away and so some research and work out for themselves that the 'kid' may have a point.

[DuaneJackson]

[Post tidied up - bickering deleted]

[Anton3]

I've donated a powerful marketing tool for boycotting Israel - 300 million people will be reached across 600 days (it was originally going to sell them consumer goods, now it's going to advise themn on what consumer goods to avoid)

Yesterday in clapham junction a market stall selling ONLY israeli fruit was boycotted by me - when i asked the man where the fruit was from not only did he say israel - he then insisted on saying that all kenyan fruit is ****!!! What a racist maniac. Anyway, some people around me told the man that they would boycott him too, unless he sold non israeli fruit instead!

Join the boycott me hearties. I'm pushing it to 300 mill people!!! It's not going to fail.

[Cornish Steve]

I get VERY angry when people who know little about the conflict and its true cause make silly coments like those made above.
Then a few facts won't go amiss.

1) When Mark Twain visited the land in the 19th century, practically no one lived there. There is no such ethnic group as Palestinian (a generic term invented by the Romans). In the 20th century, neighbouring countries resettled people there for political reasons in an attempt to undermine the Balfour Declaration.

2) When the Arab nations attacked Israel at its formation, they told the settled Arabs to leave because they'd have all the land when they won the war. Israel told the settled Arabs to stay. Those who stayed remain in Israel to this day. Those who left have been kept in refugee camps by Arab nations to this day - who refuse to resettle them in their own lands.

None of this justifies the violence by either side, but the clever use of propaganda and the rewriting of history (especially by Mr. Arafat when he was alive) really doesn't help the situation. (How many people, for example, know the true origins of refugee camps?)

And no one mentions the number of Israeli schoolchildren who have been killed by bombers, snipers, and rockets. The innocent on both sides suffer.

And if UN relief can't even reach the needy without being stolen by Hamas militia, how will others do it?

[Comspec]

OK, some of us have work to do even at the weekends, but I could not resist nipping in here and having a wee comment or two :)

My intention is not to pee people off (hahaha), its just that I hate it when people shut down and just accept what they are being fed in the media, most on here are adults, all have internet access why not look into the problem and see for yourselves what is really going on.

Both sides are in essence making things worse and worse, but to blame the palestinans...that my freinds is low...

So to totally blame the Israelis must also be low - since they have their 'reasons' too ?

I also note your comment about everyone being fed by the media, for later reference :)

So you are a expert in these matters.

Why was Hamas formed?

What made these bunch of nutters get together?

Was it not the fact that there homes had been ripped off, the fact they were sent to refugee camps, the fact that to this day, all they are asking for is somewhere they can call home?

And then to bomb a refugee camp when people protest (call it terrorism if you want) where are the refugees supposed to go....

Out of the WHOLE thing all you choose to say is Hamas is a terrorist organistation.

Even I would agree that Hamas, Hezbollah, Isreal, USA, and others are terrorists, big deal.

Lets discuss the cause not those that have formed to resist.

So the fact that some nutters may have felt they had a reason for 'resistance' is an excuse to now murder innocent men, women and children? If this is the case, and you support it, then you are nothing but a supporter of a murdering gang of scum and should take off your bigotted head for a moment and hang it in shame.

Every terrorist organisation has at its root a 'cause', as that is what draws the nutters to them in the first place. a little dogma goes a long way to recruit, and you are as guilty of spouting it as any actual Hamas members I suspect.

where I have been is none of your concern... and I dont need to travel to isreal or palestine in order to know what is happening on the ground, thats visable in the media, the reasons are not.

So, what everyone else sees in the media is nonsense, but your twisted version of what you read/hear is correct? You one one hand slate people for what they are fed by the media, then on the other admit that it is where you get your information form?

Dawg...some valid points...but your vastily complex ...complex is doing my nut in.

Northern Ireland was complex but they solved it. EH...I've lived here 38 years and sh1t all is solved
Flying was complex but they solved it. ....try stepping out of an aeroplane (in fact I like the thought of that)
South Africa was complex but they solved it. eh? Take a wee look at the murder rate, crime rate, etc, and tell me it is solved.
Getting to the moon was complex but they solved it. ...again, a multi-million pund project which is not exactly repeated weekly is hardly 'solved'

Dont give me the complex line...please!

Every complex solution can be solved...it just depends if there is a will to solve it. ...and this will must involve using children to let the media see them die, eh? Or firing rockets indiscriminately into a country to provoke a response?

And there most certainly is a will to solve it by Hamas and their supporters - kill everyone who disagrees. But not in the normal method of 'resistance' as seen by some occupied countries in past conflicts etc, but by blatant and cowardly murder. That will solve everything ffs ! :rolleyes:

How dare you... No no, how dare you, you bigotted and twisted little man ! I have grown up surrounded by people like you, and have learnt their twisted and warped way - you do not have the right to be indignant.

I have MANY jewish freinds (not now I'd bet, unless you lie to them very well) so I take what you just said very personally, I have never and will never insult any ones religion (way too late you little girl) just as I would object to anyone insulting mine (you actually insult your own religion - as I'm sure some of the normal people of your faith would agree), however I asked of you a very simple question, and because you know the answer to that question and you also know that the answer invalidates current Isreal you just twist this to your favour.

For your information...

HAMAS was created by the palestinians.
HAMAS is made up of palestinians.
HAMAS was elected into government by the palestinians.
HAMAS is palestinian.

They may do some bad, but they do alot more good for their people (and f*** everyone else, eh?), if they choose to resist then so be it, it is wrong to hurt innocent people, but in all honesty I think they have gone too far now...they just dont care, but then neither does Isreal hence why this is such a mess. (but Israel is evil and Hamas is just responding, eh?... who is this clown, and why is he allowed to post amongst adults ffs?)

You shouldnt take the mick out of peoples holy books.

The bible, the torah, and the quran have more inside them then most know.
Please explain to me where any holy book allows and agrees with the murder of innocents? The maiming of children? the brutal and mindless violence your Hamas has been guilty of for a long time?

Read them, try and understand them and you will get far in life, they preach peace, love and care for humanity, the exact opposite of what people who twist their words have been doing for too long (from ALL religions).

Again, peace, love, etc don't really fit in with your pro-Hamas freakishness

If you dont belive in god and think we transformed from a cosmic accident to a microbe and then to humans well...thats another debate but for my liking a bit too much of a co-incidence. You, my twisted friend, were formed from an ecological mistake, as no God (or whatever) intentionally put someone who can preach on one hand and accept and support the murder of children or the use of children as shields to further whatever cause on this earth.

Dave...I dont think you have ever tested that statement about ripping to shreads a holy book to disprove something...let me restate the very basics of this whole debate.... FACT IS FACT... it cannot be falsified. And the fact is - you are a bigot and a terrorist supporter - and we should have you banned from this forum and any other you care to spout your hatred on

I work on logic and fact and that is what drives people nuts because its the two things that put those in the wrong in the dock!

In summary Swiss - you have done nothing but show to me that you are a twisted person, shielding behind his religion to disguise a blind hatred for anything you disagree with.

You say you know so much, yet you display so little of that knowledge it is disgusting.

How dare you come onto any forum I happen to be on and:
1) Slag off our troops, you little girl. Get yourself into a uniform and support something if you feel so strongly about it, you little armchair terrorist.
2) Even have the audacity to mention NI (my province btw you tw*t, one I have actually SEEN) in the same sentence as your twisted logic
3) Spout your hatred and try to justify the killing of children, and hide it under a religion blanket

I detest people like you - people who can voice such a strong opinion on everything, yet who cannot actually pick up the balls to go and physically support that which they spout about.

Come to my town, spout your crap once in a bar, and they'll kick your little girl ass all the way back home.

Stick to your armchair you big brave girl, and support all the children-killing you wish, but do not ever come anywhere I happen to be and spout about it. If you were within reaching distance, I'd love to show you the error of your ways ;)

Mods - don't bother banning me, or warning me - I will not be hanging around somewhere were little armchair terrorists can disgrace their own religion and try to excuse the murder of children in full public view.

[DuaneJackson]

... he then insisted on saying that all kenyan fruit is ****!!! What a racist maniac.

Does saying that all Kenyan fruit is **** really qualify him as a "racist maniac"?

[DuaneJackson]

Mods - don't bother banning me, or warning me - I will not be hanging around somewhere were little armchair terrorists can disgrace their own religion and try to excuse the murder of children in full public view.


We warn/ban people and we're trigger happy, power tripping gits infringing on members human rights and free speech.

We don't warn/ban and we get grief for "allowing" people to state disagreeable views and people are leaving the forum because we don't ban/censor enough people.

It's a hard life.

[Comspec]

No offense meant Duane, and I respect you guys 100% for a difficult job mate.

Wee tubes like that really get on my goat :)

[DuaneJackson]

It's OK, no offence taken. I as just thinking allowed really : )

[DuaneJackson]

Wee tubes

Is that "wee" as in the Scottish vernacular - saying that he is a small tube.

Or "wee" as in the colloquial term for urine - saying that he is a tube through which one urinates?

[Comspec]

Is that "wee" as in the Scottish vernacular - saying that he is a small tube.

Or "wee" as in the colloquial term for urine - saying that he is a tube through which one urinates?

Both !! :D

Is there a word that describes 'wee cowardly twisted tube' ? ;)

[ken_uk]

Comspec, I also hate terrorism of all kinds, but one thing mentioned


The bible, the torah, and the quran have more inside them then most know.
Please explain to me where any holy book allows and agrees with the murder of innocents? The maiming of children? the brutal and mindless violence your Hamas has been guilty of for a long time?


is interesting, as if you take the bible for example, it has plenty of examples of where you are told to murder innocents, including children.

Deuteronomy chapter 13, verses 1 to 19 orders people to kill someone if they dont believe in god, it even goes as far as ordering the killing of ENTIRE TOWNS (everyone in them, even the cattle!) if they are worshiping other gods.

Deuteronomy 22:20-21 - Tells people to kill women if they are not virgins on their wedding night.

Deuteronomy 13:7-12 - Kill people who follow other religions
Leviticus 24:10-16 - Kill blasphemours
Romans 1:24-32 - Kill homosexuals.
Exodus 31:12-15 - Kill anyone who works on the Sabbath.
Deuteronomy 17:12 - Kill people who do not agree with what the priests say.
And there are many, many more examples in the bible.

No doubt other 'holy' books have their own rules, which are just as harsh.

Religion can be pretty deadly.

[Cornish Steve]

where I have been is none of your concern... and I dont need to travel to isreal or palestine in order to know what is happening on the ground, thats visable in the media, the reasons are not.
In other words, you've never been there - so you have little credibility on the subject. You've never seen children boarding a bus in Israel and realised just how calculated is the cowardice of bombers who walk on such a bus, sit next to a child, and blow themselves up. You've never seen the machine guns so common in the Palestinian territories, on many street corners. You've never seen how hard some Israelis work on the ground to help Arabs living in Israel or in the territories. You've never been eating outside in a restaurant in Israel and seen a laser beam appear on the shirt of a colleague so that he has to take cover (even though it was probably just a child playing and not the sights of a sniper). You've never heard from a hotel room the boom of rockets landing in the distance.

For the record, I've been to the region several times - having visited both Israel and the Palestinian territories. I've seen all these things happen first hand, not just on the news, so it gives me some credibility. It's a little frustrating to read words of hatred from someone who knows little about the reality of the situation.

[Cornish Steve]

Comspec, I also hate terrorism of all kinds, but one thing mentioned is interesting, as if you take the bible for example, it has plenty of examples of where you are told to murder innocents, including children.
Ken, you have to take these examples in context. At the time, child sacrifice was rampant, as was all kinds of other cruel and extremely immoral behaviour. The OT law was rather like an electric fence we put in place for our pets today. They get a jolt when they first cross the fence, but it means they soon learn to live within clearly defined limits put there for their own good. No one believes those punishments or actions apply more than three thousand years later. Today we have a good sense of right and wrong, something that wasn't the case back then.

[Dawg]

Does saying that all Kenyan fruit is **** really qualify him as a "racist maniac"?

More homophobic I think. Altho' he might just be a very fussy fruit eater, one of those uber-vegetarians. Which would explain a lot.

[ken_uk]

There are still extremists who kill people, using religious beliefs similar to those though - even if they themselves are just being used by people who are probably not in it for the religious reasons, they recruit based on religious dogma.

Ok, not seen any Christians do it recently, but the muslims have extremists who wish to rage wars on infidels and non believers etc. (Not that I am saying that they are in the norm in the muslim community, they are just that, extremist...
If things like that were not in the holy books they are fed by the recruiters, then that would be one less 'hook' to get them planting bombs etc.)

[Gillie]

Will agree with you Ken, having been on the receiving end of some crappy things in the past all put down to that word 'religion' ... it does have a lot to answer for!

[Comspec]

But I still cannot believe that a religion in itself would actually support murder of innocents - I know little of religion, other than the hassle it has caused tbh, but I would have thought the whole purpose of a 'religion' was to preach the opposite of hatred.

There are people who use religion as an excuse for their murderous behaviour, but can this be the fault of the religion in itself, or more those who choose to twist it and use it for personal warped agendas?

Maybe I am a little naive :)

[Cornish Steve]

There are people who use religion as an excuse for their murderous behaviour, but can this be the fault of the religion in itself, or more those who choose to twist it and use it for personal warped agendas
There are people who use anything as an excuse for murderous behaviour: religion, politics, ideology, sport, envy, desire, or simply no good reason at all. Sadly, it's part of human nature.

[swisslogistics]

Comspec...I think you got problems mate...AND NOT A CLUE, ive gone thru your 'red' remarks and not one would stand up to any debate/conversation, you certainly shot yourself in the foot regards to what I said about the media.

Cornish Steve...some valid points although cant agree on all you said.

[Subbynet]

There are people who use religion as an excuse for their murderous behaviour, but can this be the fault of the religion in itself, or more those who choose to twist it and use it for personal warped agendas?


Sadly yes its completely the fault of religion. Religion is passed down from generation to generation and rarely does anyone deviate to a new religion.

If I had a wish, it would be that children are not subjected to religion until they are at least 21 years old.

[swisslogistics]

I have in no way condoned any terrorist or violent action against anyone.

Again Comspec has validated my point that this is seen as such a one sided argument with people with closed minds...like compsec who wont even consider looking on the other side of the fence.

You talk about all the horrible things Hamas has done...what about the acts of true horror that the IDF commits day in day out and especially when they start a new offensive or war.

Did you hear or see the pictures of the 3 starving children who were pulled out of rubble along with the corpse of their decomposing mother, that was their bedroom and she was putting them to sleep, instead a 'precision' munition attacked a militant hideout or thats what the IDF claim, is that any less of a crime than an innocent kid in isreal getting killed by a wayward, erratic, homemade missle by Hamas...NO NEVER, but until this cycle of violence stops the only people it will feed is the fanatics.

The first port of call is to educate people and let them know that there are two sides to every coin, not just what is played out on sky and fox etc.

[swisslogistics]

It is not just the people of palestine who are at fault here.

Hamas are known for using human sheilds, this is wrong and a horrible thing to do, but if we look at history, the zionists have done exactly that, along with the americans and probably alot of others too.

It is the lack of respect and care for life that has bought us all where we are today.

[Comspec]

I have in no way condoned any terrorist or violent action against anyone.

Again Comspec has validated my point that this is seen as such a one sided argument with people with closed minds...like compsec who wont even consider looking on the other side of the fence..... and agree with murdering terrorists? I think not amigo :)

You talk about all the horrible things Hamas has done...what about the acts of true horror that the IDF commits day in day out and especially when they start a new offensive or war....ahem, maybe the indiscriminate firing of rockets into civilian areas by Hamas actually 'started' this offensive.

Did you hear or see the pictures of the 3 starving children who were pulled out of rubble along with the corpse of their decomposing mother, that was their bedroom and she was putting them to sleep, instead a 'precision' munition attacked a militant hideout or thats what the IDF claim, is that any less of a crime than an innocent kid in isreal getting killed by a wayward, erratic, homemade missle by Hamas...NO NEVER, but until this cycle of violence stops the only people it will feed is the fanatics... the same fanatics who actually bloody started it

The first port of call is to educate people and let them know that there are two sides to every coin, not just what is played out on sky and fox etc.

Of course there are two sides to every coin, it's just that rational and normal human beings do not want to hear the side of the child murdering scum :rolleyes:

I love your reference to the 'lack of care and respect for life' - very hypocritical tbh.

And the other general statements, slagging us and the Yanks, etc - without a shed of evidence other than your twisted view. Please do not disrespect our soldiers by classing them the same as Hamas terrorists.

[Subbynet]

You want proof that religion sucks, and is dangerous and divisive???

Here you go - a video on Youtube "In support of Gaza", its actually from my home town Luton, but you won't believe that by watching it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1uDLSlcfmI&feature=related

(ps. There are actually two groups protesting, the men in front, and the woman following! (faces covered of course!) lol...:D )

Choose your tonic carefully, that's all I say, because I don't think neither side is worth supporting.

(Edit - just noticed I didn't actually paste the link lol)

[Comspec]

The majority of the animal kingdom has one thing in common - the respect and want to do the correct thing for their young.

Human kind is no different, and it realistically is the duty of every sinngle human adult to do everything in their power to protect and assist the young.

Those who deviate from this, and deliberately kill/maim children for whatever 'cause' lose all their human rights in my eyes purely by their own actions.

These are the type of people you are trying, and seriously failing, to defend. Shame on you for even trying to defend such actions, and twisting it in such a way as to try to make the rest of us look mlike we are biased.

Get yourself away home now (Swiss), and take a long hard look at yourself in a mirror.

[Delta-SI]

Medicine bottles, transferred to the Gaza Strip as humanitarian aid by Israel, were used by Hamas as grenades against IDF troops during Operation Cast Lead. Pictures of the grenades were obtained exclusively by The Jerusalem Post.

Spokesman for organization says Hamas police raided UN warehouse in Gaza City on Tuesday and snatched 3,500 blankets, hundreds of food parcels. Meanwhile Abbas' government announces $600 million aid project for rebuilding Gaza News agencies Published: 02.04.09, 13:40 / Israel News (http://www.ynetnews.com/home/0,7340,L-3082,00.html)


And maybe the most sick thing they are doing

IsraelNN.com) After having three puppet hosts -- Farfur the Mickey Mouse look-alike (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/122930), Nahoul the bee (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/123100) and Assoud the rabbit (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/125227) -- all die on TV, Hamas children's television has introduced a fourth puppet host. The new one, a bear named Nassur, appeared Friday on Hamas TV promising to be a Jihad fighter, and declaring war on the Zionists.

Nassur: "I will join the ranks of the Izz A-Din Al-Qassam [Hamas'] Brigades. I will be a Jihad fighter with them and I will carry a rifle. Do you know why, Saraa?"

Saraa: "Why?"

Nassur: "To defend the children of Palestine, the children who were killed, the children who were wounded, the orphaned children. That's why, from this moment, I declare war on the criminal Zionists. Not only me, me and you. You are ready, right, Saraa?"

Saraa: "We are all ready to sacrifice ourselves for our homeland!"

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/129960

[Comspec]

unbelieveable, yet someone can come in here and try to defend these guys.

Maybe they are just misunderstod do-gooders who are trying to do the best for their people....aye right....... and I thought we had governmental problems :rolleyes:

[Delta-SI]

Yesterday in clapham junction a market stall selling ONLY israeli fruit was boycotted by me -
I am sure the fact that you didn't buy an apple and some peaches from him has deeply wounded him, in fact is that BBC news a calling?


- he then insisted on saying that all kenyan fruit is ****!!! What a racist maniac.

The man from Clapham Junction, he say no!

I find Kenyan fruit gash. I find most things that aren't British gash. I'm not racist, just patriotic.

[sirearl]

I still canot believe that relgions are so competitive that they allow for members the other religions to be killed without banishing/excommunicating everyone involved......

Have to agree that religion in its many forms is the single most common reason for modern war.

when unproven statements govern the thinking of mankind,anything can be justified.

Earl

[Cornish Steve]

Cornish Steve...some valid points although cant agree on all you said.
Thanks. We all have different views on the matter, which is part of the reason why the problem has remained so intractable for years. In the end, though, all sides must want peace. It doesn't help when just one side wants it or when at least one side is committed to do outdo the other. As is most tragedies, it's the innocents on both sides who get caught in the crossfire and pay the price.

[Cornish Steve]

is that any less of a crime than an innocent kid in isreal getting killed by a wayward, erratic, homemade missle by Hamas
Yes, it is, because it's not wayward, erratic, homemade missiles that kill Israeli children. They are targetted at civilian targets, not military targets. Suicide bombers who detonate on a bus or in a hotel lobby stand or sit beside children when they blow themselves up. This is the difference. The Israeli forces choose military targets and some innocents get killed in the process; Hamas targets innocents in the first place.

[Cornish Steve]

The first port of call is to educate people and let them know that there are two sides to every coin
I agree entirely. Have you ever seen the materials used by Palestinians to educate their children? The sooner these children are educated fairly to see both sides of the coin, the better. Right now, they are taught that Israel doesn't exist, that Zionists occupy their land, that Jews are to be killed, and that it's their responsibility to kill them. In this way, the vicious cycle continues.

[Hedgebetter]

I am sorry for the title of my reply, I dont mean anyone is stuipd.

I inivte you to google Peace, Propaganda and the Promised Land and watch this presentation on google video. Please give yourself time, it is worth it.

[Hedgebetter]

first off: I don't rightly understand the politics going on Israel vs Gaza.

I have to say though, I don't understand why everyone is being so anti-Israel. :|

AFAIK, Gaza started this most recent conflict - them being Hamas, a known terrorist organisation. Israel responded, and are now the bad guys. I know this is a very simplistic overview of the situation, but I just don't get it.

Bottom line is, both sides should stop. But that's easier said than done :(

Wow.
*The reason we are anti Israeli is becasue their practices and policies are racist, and thier behaviour is murderous.
*Gaza did not start the most recent conflict - how can you say that? Israel invaded the area which incidently Israel has imposed crippling sanctions on eve since Hamas won the elections.
*Hamas is actaully the legitimate, democratically elected govening party in Gaza. To keep refering to them as terrorist is not helpful. I should rather have extended a hand to them and invited them away from armed conflict when it became clear they were the choice of the People of Palestine.
*Israel's response is illegal, and you would think that they would recognise this having suffered at Hitlers hands. You cannot collectively punish a people or a nation, or a village for the activities of anyone. Collective pusnishment is illigal and unfair.
*Both sides should stop? Count the bodies sweetie and tell me who is killing whom. Its not a conflict it is a massacre, go on I dare you, go back any number of month or years and count the bodies.

[Jenni384]

Count the bodies sweetie and tell me who is killing whom. Its not a conflict it is a massacre, go on I dare you, go back any number of month or years and count the bodies.

While I hate to refuse a dare, I can't, for obvious reasons. And don't call me sweetie :mad:

While I know Wikipedia is not gospel, the following seems to refute your claims that they are not terrorists etc:

Hamas is considered a terrorist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism) organization by Canada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada),[28] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#cite_note-27) the European Union (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union),[29] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#cite_note-28)[30] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#cite_note-29)[31] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#cite_note-30) Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel),[32] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#cite_note-31) Japan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan),[33] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#cite_note-32) and the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States).[34] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#cite_note-SD1-33) Although Australia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia)[35] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#cite_note-NSF-Australia-terrorlist-34) and the United Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom)[36] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#cite_note-UKTerrorList-35) list only the military wing of Hamas, the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izz_ad-Din_al-Qassam_Brigades), as a terrorist organization. The United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) and the European Union (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union) have implemented restrictive measures against Hamas on an international level.[37] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#cite_note-EUTerrorList-36)[38] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#cite_note-37)[/URL]

Hamas launched numerous [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_attack"]suicide bombings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#cite_note-37) against Israel,[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#cite_note-suicide_bombings-4) the first of them in April, 1993.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#cite_note-5) Hamas ceased the attacks in 2005 and renounced them in April, 2006.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#cite_note-guardian.co.uk-6) Hamas has also been responsible for Israel-targeted rocket attacks, IED (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IED) attacks, and shootings

While I know Israel are responsible for atrocities also, it sounds to me like it's 6 of one and half a dozen of the other.

[Delta-SI]

*Hamas is actaully the legitimate, democratically elected govening party in Gaza. To keep refering to them as terrorist is not helpful. I should rather have extended a hand to them and invited them away from armed conflict when it became clear they were the choice of the People of Palestine.
Yes but the fact that they are a great big terrorist organisation also isn't helpful, if you can't see that then you are obviously blinkered to the facts.

"Hamas uses both political activities and violence in pursuit of its goals. For example, while politically engaged in the 2006 Palestinian Territories parliamentary election campaign, Hamas stated in its election manifesto that it was prepared to use "armed resistance to end the occupation""

I mean aside from The Hamas Charter the fact they have people who tout jibberish like this ""suffering by fire is the Jews' destiny in this world and the next." just makes them even less credible in my book.

Oh yeah there is all the launching rockets at Israel and then hiding among civilians while they do it, using ambulances to transport troops oh yeah and using small children as human shields...


*Israel's response is illegal, and you would think that they would recognise this having suffered at Hitlers hands. You cannot collectively punish a people or a nation, or a village for the activities of anyone. Collective pusnishment is illigal and unfair.

Self defence isn't illegal actually.

[Dawg]

Wow.
*The reason we are anti Israeli is becasue their practices and policies are racist, and thier behaviour is murderous.
*Gaza did not start the most recent conflict - how can you say that? Israel invaded the area which incidently Israel has imposed crippling sanctions on eve since Hamas won the elections.
There is the little thing of Hamas firing rockets into Israel on a daily basis. This is causus bellum anywhere.
*Hamas is actaully the legitimate, democratically elected govening party in Gaza. To keep refering to them as terrorist is not helpful. I should rather have extended a hand to them and invited them away from armed conflict when it became clear they were the choice of the People of Palestine.
Extend them a welcome yes. When they remove the destruction of Israel from their charter.
*Israel's response is illegal, and you would think that they would recognise this having suffered at Hitlers hands. You cannot collectively punish a people or a nation, or a village for the activities of anyone. Collective pusnishment is illigal and unfair.
Godwins law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law)
*Both sides should stop? Count the bodies sweetie and tell me who is killing whom. Its not a conflict it is a massacre, go on I dare you, go back any number of month or years and count the bodies.
"Sweetie"? Is that a non sexist, multiculti heart I see you wearing on your sleeve? Gnarrff.

Replies in red.....

[Delta-SI]

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e162/MattGo74/GodwinsLaw.jpg

[Hedgebetter]

Wow.

-I retract the sweetie unconditionally as you take offense.

-I count 3 israeli deaths directly attributed to rockets and suicide attacks in Dec 2008. Thier murderers could surely not be counted as the population of Gaza? Every life is precious. Israels response should recognise this and not be indescriminate, decending to the level of terroists themselves. I am british and I would not contanance my government punishing a whole people for the actions of a some of them. Even were Israel to be indescriminate, surely they can be proportionate?
-If you have missed my point about Hamas it must be due to my poor English. Anyhow, I point to Sinn Fain (sp?) and the IRA; it took political courage for Maggie then Tony to work with them to end the impass in N Ireland but they did and who would deny life is much better? When a "terrorist organisation" represents "the people" maybe it is time to re-evaluate your stance. BTW lets not forget who created Hamas and why (just before you ask it was Mossad becasue they got tired of assassinating PLO and wanted someone else to do that work)

-and again to your final line 6 of one half a dozen of the other...no. The statistics dont match. Far more Palestinians are murdered than Israelis.

But I do not wish to engage in angry mudslinging. I was hugely suprised at your position becasue I dont think it is entirely reasonable, and I sought rather clumsily to put across the alternative to you. I would hope you could enlighten me at any time you think I am in need of illumination.

If you have the time do have a look at Peace, Propaganda and the Promised Land. I think you will find it reasonable and perhaps challanging of your veiw, but I think - whether you side with the argument or not - you will find it interesting.

Now please have a good day

[Jenni384]

-I retract the sweetie unconditionally as you take offense.
Ta muchly :)


Every life is precious.Agreed.

But I do not wish to engage in angry mudslinging. I was hugely suprised at your position becasue I dont think it is entirely reasonable, and I sought rather clumsily to put across the alternative to you. I would hope you could enlighten me at any time you think I am in need of illumination.Me neither. As I previously said, I don't know enough about the two sides to hold a proper debate on the subject. This is quite an old thread now but, at the time, I was very surprised at the anti Israeli stance, when the Hamas fighters in Gaza were using underhand tactics such as using children as shields and ambulances as fighting vehicles, seemingly without so much as a whisper from the media. That was my surprise.

I'm not saying either side is innocent, nor wholly to blame, and no of course the death toll isn't going to be equal. I'm neither pro nor anti either side. It's a sad situation that's been going on for ages and looks like it will continue for ages too. I don't know enough about politics to suggest a solution.

What annoys me is when people come on saying "Poor A, B is so bad to them" without considering the bad things B is doing to A, whether in retaliation or instigation.

[adam]

-I count 3 israeli deaths directly attributed to rockets and suicide attacks in Dec 2008.


Is that just in one month? That is 3 too many and basically you are annoyed that your people's attempts to kill Israeli's is not as successful as the Israelis when they retaliate?

Sour grapes I think they call that. Stop attacking them and they might just find they have more important things to do than killing Hamas terrorists.

Even were Israel to be indescriminate, surely they can be proportionate?

I really do feel for your argument on this point but the problem is you need to make sure the job is done when you retaliate. Many would say Israel has not done enough to defend itself. If you are stung by a wasp and there is a nest in your loft, you don't kill one wasp, you destroy the whole nest.

[Hedgebetter]

Is that just in one month? That is 3 too many and basically you are annoyed that your people's attempts to kill Israeli's is not as successful as the Israelis when they retaliate?
I dont think you have quite followed my argument. (a) Three is three and each life is valuable or precious. I think I said that? Or something like that? (b) |I am sorry if I have come across annoied, but I think that is more to do with your emotional involvement in the subject than mine. (c) and this WAS my point - you cannot call what the Israelis do "retailiation" it is so indescriminate and disproportional as to constitute "collective punishment" like say the SS wiping out a whole village when Himmler was assasinated...


Sour grapes I think they call that. Stop attacking them and they might just find they have more important things to do than killing Hamas terrorists.
And it is a tribute to the excellence of the Israeli propaganda and lobbying efforts that you think this. The Zionists mission is not to protect their people or thier land but to secure it by eliminating the Palesinians. I do not doubt if Israel had intended to assasinate or incarcerate every single hamas fighter they could have. Do you doubt this?


I really do feel for your argument on this point but the problem is you need to make sure the job is done when you retaliate. Many would say Israel has not done enough to defend itself. If you are stung by a wasp and there is a nest in your loft, you don't kill one wasp, you destroy the whole nest.
The job was done. Hamas still exsists, is not even weakened, the rockets are still being fired. What job do you think was done? The main job of whacking palestinians, that was sucessful.

[Hedgebetter]

Yes but the fact that they are a great big terrorist organisation also isn't helpful, if you can't see that then you are obviously blinkered to the facts.
If I am blinkered you are blind. To call Hamas "great big" is propagandist twaddle; Hamas is a tiny organisation, smaller than even the PLO with estimates ranging 20-25,000; 1 1/4% of Gaza's population.


"Hamas uses both political activities and violence in pursuit of its goals. For example, while politically engaged in the 2006 Palestinian Territories parliamentary election campaign, Hamas stated in its election manifesto that it was prepared to use "armed resistance to end the occupation""
And there is nothing intrinsically wrong with an armed struggle surely? Castro, Che, DeGaulle, Dayan, Mandela, Adams; come come, why do you choose to take umberage?


I mean aside from The Hamas Charter the fact they have people who tout jibberish like this ""suffering by fire is the Jews' destiny in this world and the next." just makes them even less credible in my book.
And here is an important point: you are not part of thier electrate. Hamas won a landslide victory in palestine elections, so clearly this language (amoung other things) appeals to them that voted them in. I am sure your opinion is valid, indeed the fact that the west generally does not understand arabic, and the Arabs make no attempt to change thier language for ease of understanding only makes the task of the Zionist propaganda mission easier. Remember the quote "wipe Israel off the face of the earth?" That is not what the president of Iran said. I really think we should all try see behind the curtain.


Self defence isn't illegal actually.
Of course you are right, and I neither stated nor implied it is. Your point is I suppose that what Israel does is done in self defence? No court in any land but Israel would recognise that bombing a shool for isntance, where you have deliberatly directed civillian women and children to gather as an acto of self defense. Self defence can only be directed against an attacker, not a general population.

[Delta-SI]

Lets hope the Israeli's try a lot harder then....

[Dawg]

Careful Delta. You'll be accused of Jennicide next..:)

[Delta-SI]

Careful Delta. You'll be accused of Jennicide next..:)

I LOL'd.....

[Jenni384]

Careful Delta. You'll be accused of Jennicide next..:)
He can't get rid of me that easily ;)

[Gillie]

Wow.
*The reason we are anti Israeli is becasue their practices and policies are racist, and thier behaviour is murderous.



A Hamas cleric who once participated in an international conference of "Imams and Rabbis for Peace" whose delegates vowed to "condemn any negative representation" of each other's religions, has wholeheartedly espoused Hamas's racist ideology in a recent Friday sermon on Hamas TV.

Ironically, this latest profession of Hamas's genocidal racism was preached and broadcast at the start of the month in which the UN is meeting in the "Durban II" conference in Geneva to condemn Israel as being "racist."

According to the Hamas interpretation of Islam, the Jews are inherently evil, seek to rule the world, and are a threat to Muslims and all of humanity. Therefore they are destined to extermination. In the words of Hamas religious leader Ziad Abu Alhaj, "Hatred for Muhammad and Islam is in their [Jews'] souls, they are naturally disposed to it..."

Mmmm