Help, client wants website she has not paid for.

[trondez]

I need some advice or whether anyone else has been here...

Long standing client came to me for website upgrade using the data and content already on her site. Contract drawn up T&C payment deposit in advance, payment then release of site. Client ok'd proposal and terms did job... 6 weeks in they decided to go to another designer, after ascertaining why, and fear I would have to take them to court I told them if I got there visits higher and google rank page 3 and above and half price hosting next year they needed to pay. they agreed. proved both and asked for payment during the 6 months timeline I gave myself to do the job they agreed payment b4 xmas... hosting became due and they failed to pay on time and then stalled for 2 weeks this had happened previously so gave them a option 48 hours to pay or switch off, they paid. I thought they just needed a shake up 2 days later they ask to transfer site so i asked for payment, they said no not util they had the site and decided whether I had completed the second agreement...

Went to debt collection company to get money owed... no joy... just about to do small claims court and she landed me with a injunction...

Any ideas people... ps this is posted without prejudice... I cannot disclose the clients name as to cause her any problems... even though she is causing me plenty!

[SLF]

why the injunction?

[itrends]

From the info you provide, as long as you have in writing that she agreed to the terms and you can proove that you met all sides of that agreement then you are in the right to not release anything until payment is made. It may mean you don't get your payment for some time and get dragged about the dirt with forms etc, but the principle stands.

I don't get how / why / what grounds the injunction is based on though. Can you shed some light? Are there bits to this being missed out?

[streetslocal]

From the info you provide, as long as you have in writing that she agreed to the terms and you can proove that you met all sides of that agreement then you are in the right to not release anything until payment is made. It may mean you don't get your payment for some time and get dragged about the dirt with forms etc, but the principle stands.

I don't get how / why / what grounds the injunction is based on though. Can you shed some light? Are there bits to this being missed out?
Im also keen to understand the reason for the injunction

[trondez]

the injunction is for instant release of the owners site (but if she hasn't paid for it in full how can she own it) and damages to her business, as I shut her site down when she sent me her solicitors letter saying release without payment up front.
O and harrassment even though I have done everything in my power to be nice about the situation, i did do 5 months worth of SEO for free rather than take her to court when she broke the original contract.

[streetslocal]

the injunction is for instant release of the owners site (but if she hasn't paid for it in full how can she own it) and damages to her business, as I shut her site down when she sent me her solicitors letter saying release without payment up front.
O and harrassment even though I have done everything in my power to be nice about the situation, i did do 5 months worth of SEO for free rather than take her to court when she broke the original contract.
What about an arranged escrow payment through the solictor?

[trondez]

trying that at the moment, but last time i tried that she insisted that I work another month for free to get her back up in google... have a strange feeling she is quite irrational

[itrends]

trying that at the moment, but last time i tried that she insisted that I work another month for free to get her back up in google... have a strange feeling she is quite irrational

If she does that again just go via small claims to be honest. Not worth the hassle.

[trondez]

ps, costs for solicitors is hugeand with the court system being so weird I cant garantee I will get any of it back... the stupid thing is its over a grand n a half... why she wont pay for the site she likes and has said so and even agreed the improvment... or is this how all web designers are gonna be treated in the future?

[streetslocal]

If she does that again just go via small claims to be honest. Not worth the hassle.
What is set out in the contract of agreement.

Looking at this it seems to be inclusive of seo?
What terms and conditions cover the SEO postion if any?

[trondez]

i have to defend the injunction or get it thrown out... both cost and neither get me paid.

[itrends]

What is set out in the contract of agreement.

Looking at this it seems to be inclusive of seo?
What terms and conditions cover the SEO postion if any?

I alluded to that in my earlier post, that it's only if all the terms of that have been met, if not, then may as well go forward with moving the site to her.

Perhaps, just ensure you have something signed / in writing from her that once the site is handed over that she will pay. List the exact amount and how many days are allowed for payment to be made. Make sure it is not on condition of anything else such as ranking positions and that it only pertains to you handing over the site.

Then, if she kicks up a stink and wont pay, you have the items you need to claim that money via the offical channels and she will have nothing to throw back your direction regarding you keeping her site etc.

[trondez]

Nope orignal quote said basic seo but no ranking promise and marketing would cost extra which she did not request.

[itrends]

i have to defend the injunction or get it thrown out... both cost and neither get me paid.

You can look to claim damages / costs if she is in breach of contract.

[trondez]

all terms and conditions have been met
new site new design, content working cms with ability to self SEO (done as a freebie for her initially)
new agreement set out once she wouldn't pay first time to stop me having to go to court and for goodwil
terms met
google page 1 on sleected string of words (i actually agreed page 3 or above I knew i could do it so it was a no brainer)
Stats increased (completed proof in google analytics
Half price hosting (gave her that and then host 4 other sites for free as a show of good will)

so as you can see have done everything I said and still she is putting court papers against me...

[trondez]

i was hoping someone else may have had this happen...

I just dont understand how she can claim the site is hers without paying for it..

[capsule01]

yeah forget the small claims court, seems pointless.

you still have the site in your hands.

no money = no site

[trondez]

if only it was that simple...
hope the court see it that way...

[Gatt Design]

If you have proper business insurance then just suspend her site(s) and let her take you to court, your legal cover should take care of any lawsuit.

She might just settle out of court though to save costs.

[Dwebs-Ltd]

Had this before process is simple if the client doesn't pay they don't get the site. If they don't pay for the hosting the service is suspended. It's their own fault if they have loss of business. As long as you gave them a notice of service termination i.e. if payment isn't received within 2 working days your service will be stopped you are not going to have any problems.

I don't see any court telling a business to hand over work they have done if they haven't been paid. Until the bill is paid the site belongs to you.

[trondez]

unfortunately my business insurance company wont pay out so having to cover costs myself, they say its a contract dispute...

Dwebs thanx for your input... you think like me, if she didn't want to loose business why did she not pay for the site I had done for her, and all the extras i had supplied free as goodwil..

I gave her so much warning always holding off longer than I said each time, 7 days became 10 days... I was trying to be nice... nice doesn't get you anywhere for some reason.

I am of the mind and it says in my terms, the site is mine until its paid for in full... I have the right to suspend any sites that remain unpaid for...

she is just being awkward on herself and damaging herself and then blaming me... I wished her no ill... now i hope she.... well I wouldn't like to say.

[Dwebs-Ltd]

If it was me I would let her take it to court just turn up state what you have done, how long you have waited and that until payment is received in full you will not turn over the site, your happy to use a third-party to handle payment i.e. escrow and its down to the clients choice.

I always fight for my corner :)

[mike1337]

hmm some bad people out there.

[trondez]

thanx for the advice... I have been so upset ... sorry I am one of those, get to know my clients and look after them so when they do stuff like this am really offended...

i was starting to think i was in the wrong... but at the end of the day I more than worked for the money I slaved for it... well below minimum wage...

[Gatt Design]

I hate people like this.

I doubt this would actually end up in court you know - it sounds like she is just bluffing and trying to make you submit to her demands so to speak. If she had a legitimate grievance with you then that is another matter, but from what you have said she doesn't have a leg to stand on.

Tell her to sing for her website - she pays nothing, she gets nothing, simple as that.

[SLF]

Some clients have a habit of turning it around to make you feel the guilty one. Money is probably the root cause but they drum up excuses to justify why they dont want to pay, or when they want their money back.

You cant cancel bespoke contracts so she has to pay for the work whether she wants the site or not. Dont let her get away with it.

[Gatt Design]

Out of interest - I just had a nosey at your website and noticed at the bottom of your home page that you are an FSB member. Surely the FSB provide legal cover as part of their membership?

[Simon-M]

Surely the FSB provide legal cover as part of their membership?

Yes they do and they are very good too. Speak to them.

[TotallySport]

the FSB does not provide free legal cover it provides free legal advice (over the phone), you can pay for additional services.

[trondez]

hi there yep I am a member of the FSB and I got the legal advice and a debt collection and then solicitor through them, even though he costs he knows his stuff and I know he will buiry this woman....

I am just shocked that the client has been given such bad advice... she had a solicitor and since taking out the injunction has dropped her.. so maybe her solicitor said dont push this... the client is slightly derranged, I even know she has a CCJ so I would assume her business is struggling hence why she is attacking me.

To top it all I have got to go to court on the very day my husband is taking a test that could potentially change our lives... so the stresss level in our house is immense and she is the cause... I wish I could do her for that...

[TotallySport]

Good Luck and I hope it all works out.

[trondez]

I just hope the court throw this case out for the waste of time it is...

It should be clear cut, but why should it cost me so much and not her for wasting court time... my solcitor thinks I wont be able to claim costs which I dont understand... I am not causing this problem and I am the one that was out of pocket not her...

any solcitors out there ... do you think the same? second opinion always welcomed..

[UKSEOAgency]

Hi Joy.

Just remember one thing - gets me through sometimes

"when business is good - its great - when its bad its awful!"

I hate customers like those, expecting they can get something for free when its taken hours of hard labour!

[trondez]

Just want to thank you for all your support... you have all been great.. I love my great clients who dont think I am here just to be used... I have been in business for 10 years this year and its only been the past 2 that have been full of clients that have this new attitude of web design is easy ... i'll give a rough brief and then expect you to jump through hoops at no cost... and I will pay you when i feel like it attitude... and whats happened to deadline, I want the site done in 2 month 6 months later still waiting for feedback and payment.

Is it me or is it since the influx of all the so called designers our business has been down graded to factory job status...(sorry any factory people)

[Gatt Design]

The problem is a lot of people see how much people abroad bid for projects on websites like getafreelancer.com and expect UK web designers to charge the same.

They don't seem to get that these people who will happily design a website for say $100 USD come from third world/developing countries so that works out at probably like half a year's wages for them or something... Whereas 100 bucks converted to UK pounds isn't very much at all for someone in the UK.

[MH1]

The problem is a lot of people see how much people abroad bid for projects on websites like getafreelancer.com and expect UK web designers to charge the same.

They don't seem to get that these people who will happily design a website for say $100 USD come from third world/developing countries so that works out at probably like half a year's wages for them or something... Whereas 100 bucks converted to UK pounds isn't very much at all for someone in the UK.


Welcome to reality, it's the same in all industries, it's become a very small world in the last 20-30 yrs. It is only local services that do not have to worry about such competition.

its only been the past 2 that have been full of clients that have this new attitude of web design is easy ... i'll give a rough brief and then expect you to jump through hoops at no cost... and I will pay you when i feel like it attitude... and whats happened to deadline, I want the site done in 2 month 6 months later still waiting for feedback and payment.

Is it me or is it since the influx of all the so called designers our business has been down graded to factory job status

Whilst I sympathise with your plight, you might wish to look at yourself as well, a properly laid out contract would have avoided most of your problems, nothing can stop a time waster or a totally unhappy client refusing to pay, but the more professionally you cover yourself the less problems you will face in the future.

I don't think web designers have been down graded, it is just the clients have more options available at lower rates than before, competition is hitting everyone these days.

[JADEMEDIA]

I used to work for a solicitors many years ago and what few claimants realise is yes it is all very easy to walk into your local court but the other party can ask for the case to be held at a court near them which could be hundreds of miles away. This deters a lot of claimants who simply don't turn up. Not sure what you mean about an injunction. Are you sure that this is not just a counter-claim. Most of the time these are delaying tactic. Others hoping that you will drop out. Whatever. The main point that you make yourself is that the customers appears irrational. That will work in your favour if you prepare your evidence and put it in a nice folder. You would be surprised by how few people do this and end up waffling in court pulling an odd bit of paper out of one pocket a screwed up invoice out of another.

Hope the info helps and one tip for anyone that comes up against the possibility of litigation in the county court. Pop along and ask the clerk of the court or even an usher to recommend a solicitor. They like everyone else have their own little network. It's called the back-scratchinglodge. com I think. Jade

[trondez]

Thanx Jade for that... I just thank god i had a contract - terms and conditions and her emails saying how good my work was...

The injunction on her part is for harrassment... even though i haven't spoken to her and only returned emails she sent to me... which is odd, and also to return her website to her as she is the owner..

I have put all my docs in a folder for my solcitor, highlighted emails, and contract and terms, also have screen grabs of google stats and page rankings, also have 3 witnesses - actualy other clients who can confirm rankings... I also have her agreement to pay in dec just before she decided to transfer the site from me... strangley after i asked for payment again.

I think I am water tight... as sure no judge will say to her ... you have not paid for the work and even though trondez terms say no pay no live you are being damaged not having your site live so i award you the costs... I would definatelty loose faith in our system if that happened... surelyif i stopped paying my mortgage and barclays reclaimed there house i could not sue them for making me homeless...

[JADEMEDIA]

Calm down. First of all you are not talking about Crown court judges here but magistrates who are drawn from local businessmen. They do like their title then so when you are asked a question look directly at them and address them as ' your worships' . I am sure lots of members on here know what that means in another club to which most of these people belong too but I assure it does wonders. Silly me I didn't and the first time I went into court with my boss he bowed in some sort of knowing nod at the bench and following behind him I did a full blown courtsy as if bowing before the Queen.. Much to the amusement of the entire court. Talk about green. Jade

[trondez]

ok peeps bit of an update...

If you have insurance as a designer for say debts/debt collection make sure it includes contract disputes, and get them in as soon as the client goes over 60 days if thats in your terms..

secondly if you have indemnity policy watch out also, as I have found out all insurance companies do not want to pay out and if they can get round a technicality they will....
mine covered me for sueing but strangley this was classed as contract dispute again...

i have done plenty of research the past few weeks, and really even if you have a cast iron terms conditions and contract anyone can sue you, and it will cost you to take them to court or defend and you may never see any money if you win..

strangely the woman causing me so much hassle is practically a bancrupt on paper... she has a CCJ from Nov and her accounts are looking less than healthy so even though I would win there is no point chasing her, or in this case defending as she has nothing....

beware all I think payment up front is the only way to go.

[Dwebs-Ltd]

secondly if you have indemnity policy watch out also, as I have found out all insurance companies do not want to pay out and if they can get round a technicality they will....


No insurance company wants to pay out no matter if its home or business. They always find a excuse for not paying thats how they make money.

[edmondscommerce]

good luck with this..

try not to brand all clients as the kind of scumbags that this one has turned out to be..

there's plenty of honest and decent people out there, its just a shame that the occasional bad one can take up so much of your attention that they eclipse all the good ones :-/

[nickpp]

We are in a very similar situation, sometimes its is just not worth the legal costs.

We have even done a small job for a member of UKBF that has totally failed to reply and ignored all emails.

The sad truth is, unless it is for a lot of money you will spend more time and hard earned cash trying to get monies from them.

Always make sure that they sign a contract also, if you do need to go legal.

[greenwood-IT]

Hiya,

I assume the injunction is related to the main website you're talking about? What are the other 4 sites you mentioned you were hosting for free? Maybe these aren't covered by the injunction?

Maybe there's a way of you gaining some revenue from the site in question? Can you add some Google Adwords where you're the beneficiary? I occasionally do this while a website is in development a) it stops the business advertising the site before it's finished/paid for and b) brings in a few quid while they test! :)

Presumably if there's an injunction that's stopping you changing the site, then you can't be blamed if it's Google rankings drop? Does this person still have access to the CMS and Stock/Product/Order management(?), maybe they shouldn't be able to 'change' the site or back end database either?

Just thinking out loud and dropping it on the keyboard... :cool:

This hasn't ever happened to me.... (message timed and dated!)

Good Luck.
Chat soon.

[Esk247]

i've had a client not pay before..ignore emails...ignore letters etc...i just closed their site after 12 months and it fizzled out..wasn't worth the hassle of legal proceedings! i had other customers waiting..just as i do now..if one of them doesnt pay then they are blacklisted and i send a memo/email to everyone that deals with websites in my address book to warn them.

[trondez]

Had great news ... so not all is lost!! Insurance company does cover me for this sort of thing, and the solicitor says she hasn't a leg to stand on, so it means they will fight for me and i dont have any costs... there is a god!

The silly thing is I was preparred to walk away i wasn't going to take her to court, i just switched her off for not paying... she is now going to face emmense costs and still have to pay me for work, shame... NOT!