Should I get my data into a MYSQL DB? [Archive]

matt.chatterley

23rd December 2008, 10:33

Subbynet

23rd December 2008, 11:23

Cheers all - Some good points raised.

*We don't plan to use this data at the moment, it will just be stored for now, say if we need to extract all email addresses for an email campaign, or maybe the addresses for a mailshot etc.

*We will be storing data on a staff forum (private) so that all staff have access and can add notes to it etc.

*We don't really want to use a CRM, as it will be hard to extract that info in the perfect format after, so I'd rather just have a form, which enters it into the database and if I understand it correctly, we could write some MYSQL queries to extract the required data.

Cheers :)

Hi Stefan,

A decent CRM system will have a good API for you to use when extracting or integrating data to other systems. Remember you can still run queries against a Database used by a CRM, but if at all possible - use an API.

I'm normally very wary of company MD's taking the lead role in IT decisions - if they don't have an IT background :rolleyes:, and here without an CRM I believe you'll be recreating the wheel in so many ways (for all your efforts, you'll end up with a very basic CRM), and possibly no where near as successfully as many (also free) CRM solutions.

You say you don't plan to use this data - again I'm going to say, use it, its a tool of business. Everytime your customer rings, you can have their details at your fingertips. Thats customer service, and something you'll be remembered for.

On the next point of Notes, again I'm going to say a Forum isn't the perfect software for this, and that others exist. You can find very good groupware suites, and thanks to API's, can integrate them pretty well with your CRM. TBH most CRM's also store notes, and the good thing is any member of staff can read this note when checking a customers account, which must be better than having to hunt it down on a forum. This way all your information is unified.

NetConneXions

23rd December 2008, 11:36

id put it into a spreadsheet, from there you can easily import it into a database or whatever when you know what format you need it in. Easier/quicker to look at too.

computer storm

23rd December 2008, 13:25

id put it into a spreadsheet, from there you can easily import it into a database or whatever when you know what format you need it in. Easier/quicker to look at too.

I would agree with Phillip, if all you want to do is extract the data when you need it i would use excel and then create an ODBC connector to database and pull the information into the excel spreadsheet when needed.

Dominic Taylor

23rd December 2008, 13:45

WHMCS (http://www.whmcs.com) is an excellent piece of software - you wouldn't need any of the hosting-related functions of course but it has oodles of other funtionality and is very customisable.

malcolmcoles

23rd December 2008, 14:41

You're not attempting to recreate this argument (http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=75057) about databases, spreadsheets and text files are you ...
__________________
Malcolm Coles (http://www.malcolmcoles.co.uk)

matt.chatterley

23rd December 2008, 14:43

FireFleur

23rd December 2008, 20:32

I will take the bait :)

Text files, with a simple delimited separated value, are probably the best places to store data if you are just storing.

Databases are just files anyhow, but as soon as you want to manipulate the data and allow access you want it in a database.

Spreadsheets are the bane of all developers really, always elicits a groan :). They tend introduce problems when translating the data out, that a simple DSV file wouldn't have.

Other ports of call, are XML, and JSON style ideas. I often hold data in Perl and Python data structures, obviously quick to manipulate when it is there.

Other solutions like SQLite and BDB, come in when you want to distribute a database and tie it to code for best performance.

sm1

23rd December 2008, 23:31

Cheers all -

Matt - I plan to do what you're saying, but online into an online database. I'd rather this than a desktop database like Access.

Martin - Thanks for that. Nice to be called an MD :p I see what you're saying, but it seems most CRM's are overkill for us. If we just had a simple forum, where we have a new thread for each client, and communication is updated there, then that would be enough, and as you say, everyone is updated. I like Highrise, but would need a paid subscription and we can't even extract everything from there.

Phillip and Darren - Thanks, but prefer something online and central :)

Dominic - It's too tailored towards hosting I'm afraid. :(

sm1

24th December 2008, 00:11

Malcolm - I have better things to do, rather than argue about databases, spreadsheets and text files...

FireFleur - Thanks for clarification :)

Subbynet

24th December 2008, 00:18

Martin - Thanks for that. Nice to be called an MD :p I see what you're saying, but it seems most CRM's are overkill for us. If we just had a simple forum, where we have a new thread for each client, and communication is updated there, then that would be enough, and as you say, everyone is updated. I like Highrise, but would need a paid subscription and we can't even extract everything from there.

Hi Stefan,

What I'd really hate for you to do is lock your data away in ways which make it hard to retrieve and use later. Fast-forward 2-3 years, you now have 5-8 staff and upteen clients a week - and 6500 threads. How does the forum stick up now as a information centre of your business?

I'm looking at you list of features, such as quick access to details, but I can't see how this would work with a forum.

Have you looked at any systems like http://cyn.in ? This would be good for team collaboration, plus, you can integrate this later - say with a CRM. :)

matt.chatterley

24th December 2008, 01:01

Matt - I plan to do what you're saying, but online into an online database. I'd rather this than a desktop database like Access.

Cool beans. Still, Access could potentially be a decent halfway step towards the latter. We used to use Access for mockups, although I now freely admit we use diagrams instead - more productive all around.

That said (please note: I hate Access. With a driving passion. Almost as much as I hate Tom Cruise and Jimmy Carr - my business partner will vouch for the severity of this statement) - I do think from the limited information given here, that it might be your best choice.

Alternatively, look into free CRM/etc systems - you need some sort of Front End on this Database!

sm1

24th December 2008, 01:06

Cheers Martin - I see what you're saying.

Had a look at those systems, they seems a little fussy for what we're after.

Preferably, these are the features we're after -

*Everyone has their own login
*You can add a new client > this takes you to a form with name,address phone numbers etc. etc.
*View current clients > choose a client, see their record (contact details etc.) and notes for them below, with a chance to add a note. Each note should be time and date stamped.
*Staff message area - somewhere like a forum, create a topic and add a note.

All nice and basic - so without any fancy formatting or anything :)

hmmmm... everything off the shelf is overkill ... me needs to learn the wisdom of PHP and MySQL :eek: expect a rough 2009!!! :p

sm1

24th December 2008, 01:07

Cheers Matt - I see what you're saying :)

P.S. - That's some strong hatred going on! :p

Subbynet

24th December 2008, 01:20

Hi Stefan,

The options are:

1) You learn the systems (Honestly they're pretty simple really, you just need to learn how to use them)
2) You learn to become a programmer (This will take you much longer)

If I was you, I'd take option 1 - because that will further your choosen business, option 2 will help you if you want to become a developer lol...

SugarCRM dare I say fits your feature list... Just install it man! lol.. Get to grips with it. All new systems are daunting at first, but I know a 60'ish year old couple who use SugarCRM for their small business, and if they can learn it, so can a young wippersnapper like you :D

sm1

24th December 2008, 01:27

Cheers Martin - By learn the systems, do you mean a CRM?

I would love to become a developer (always useful skills) but it would need more than my love ;)

SugarCRM is overkill! Far too much unwanted crap in it! All of the campaigns, leads, opportunities etc. tabs - just unneccessary! I could quite easily use it, that's not the issue, just I don't like it :rolleyes:

but I know a 60'ish year old couple who use SugarCRM for their small business
Impressive! Go them :) Usually people around that age (and older :p) can only handle Notepad - isn't that right Earl? ;) :D

Subbynet

24th December 2008, 02:14

Cheers Martin - By learn the systems, do you mean a CRM?

Yes, basically. lol.. To learn how to use a CRM system. I feel you from your posts that you really need to immerse yourself in a CRM system, and to get a good feel for the workflow, because afterwards I think your response would be different.

SugarCRM is overkill! Far too much unwanted crap in it! All of the campaigns, leads, opportunities etc. tabs - just unneccessary! I could quite easily use it, that's not the issue, just I don't like it :rolleyes:You've dismissed it without trying it... Install it, try it seriously for a month, and then come back with your verdict.

Remember your might be the MD, Accountant, Receptionist and Cleaner of your business right now, but (hopefully) in future these areas will be manned by staff... Basically don't let personal preference kill what is otherwise a great benefit for your staff and business.

A CRM will always feel overkill if its just one man using it. Its power is realised when a team of people uses it.

Your options I think are pretty limited, unless you're willing to pay someone to tailor a system for you, subscription services like Highrise are at a cost, and other than that you seem to be leaning towards solutions I'm almost certain won't benefit you in the long term like a forum.

In fact, I'm not even sure you're ready to be thinking about any sort of SQL yet, as it seems you personally want something so much simpler, but we're all giving you advice on a system we expect to grow (in information and users), but maybe you're really thinking of a system for just yourself?

Tbh this whole point is very confusing... Maybe you want Outlook BCM!

Impressive! Go them :) Usually people around that age (and older :p) can only handle Notepad - isn't that right Earl? ;) :DLOL :D

computer storm

24th December 2008, 07:42

Hello,

Do you use small business server if so you have sharepoint and you can create a php file to add and show data, and the front end was web based as they used sharepoint to show the data.

cookieonline

24th December 2008, 12:43

Hi SM,

I understand your reservations about using a fully blown CRM system to keep customer records and notes. Apart from spreadsheets another solution would be a bespoke system written for your needs. But then professionals like myself are saying to customers hey it's your money, but why re-invent the wheel? SugarCRM is available in open source flavour, and you deactivate the campaigns and features you don't need.

If/when the time came to move your data, your developer should be able to extract everything very easily. My advice would be find a company that deals with CRM systems, software and database development, and get them to take care of the lot.

Regards,

Miles

Mortime Business Software

25th December 2008, 00:14

Its the CRM system which will empower you to do things, like finding email addresses quickly,

Wrong. It is SQL which will "empower you to do things".

you probably mean some sort of CMS/CRM system, rather than just a database?

Wrong. Think about it. You need to establish the database itself before you can create any means of accessing the database.

It's probably a good move to get the data into this format...

Into what format?

Show us your entity types, mandatory and optional single-valued properties, multi-valued properties, how these properties are deemed as attributes, representative entity types, etc., or otherwise.

Any solution based on the OP's meagre statement of requirements is completely nonsensical.

its not the database its the 'front-end', the means with which to enter, store and retrieve information which will deliver the benefits.

Wrong. Do NOT think of "front end" or any other form of application process as controlling a database. It is SQL only which should manipulate the data in databases - nothing else. Information will be constructed from the data within your database, and new information will be discovered from your 'properly designed' database with creative thinking converted into SQL.

It may be worth considering a desktop database like MS Access. Before anybody laughs - it would be the easiest way to get your data into a structured format, which you could then view and update easily on the desktop. Then, when the time is right, it could easily be moved to a 'proper' server database like mysql or mssql for websites or crm. Plus backing up is easy - copy and paste!

Wrong. You should design your database from a statement of requirements aiming for a clear level of normalisation, and make sure that it is not susceptible to 'insert-update-delete' anomolies. This can (and should) be done with 'pen and paper' to start with (where 'pen and paper' of course includes the medium of 'keyboard and wordprocessor').

Cheers all - Some good points raised.

Where?

...if I understand it correctly...

I don't mean to offend anyone, but it sounds as though you understand nothing at all about database design, and if you listen to any of the answers in this thread, then you will understand even less than that!

...Access would probably be a good starting point for you...

Wrong. Data analysis of the data requirements is the only starting point for you.

Based on Paul's post above, it's actually sounding more and more like Access would probably be a good starting point for you

Wrong. Any DBMS will be suitable if you have designed your database properly.

id put it into a spreadsheet, from there you can easily import it into a database or whatever when you know what format you need it in. Easier/quicker to look at too.

Wrong. Total, ridiculous bollox.

I would agree with Phillip, if all you want to do is extract the data when you need it i would use excel and then create an ODBC connector to database and pull the information into the excel spreadsheet when needed.

Wrong. Again, this is totally unsubstantiated shice that takes absolutely no notice of careful database design. Ignore all these people please.

Text files, with a simple delimited separated value, are probably the best places to store data if you are just storing.

The OP stated in his initial post that he wants to access the data and form information from it. He should therefore use a DBMS and a database to access and organise his data, respectively.

That's all for tonight from me. I might read the rest tomorrow (Christmas day) if I'm allowed.

Dave

FireFleur

25th December 2008, 01:41

The OP stated in his initial post that he wants to access the data and form information from it. He should therefore use a DBMS and a database to access and organise his data, respectively.

I am going to do it to you :)

Wrong!

Have a reread of the original post, if anything it looks like he wants to store the data in the immediate future and access it in the distant.

And

Wrong on the DBMS!

I am going to assume you want to think it is SQL, but really LDAP is more appropriate for storage and subsequent manipulation of this type of data.

The OP has been given quite good advice in this thread, SQL is the most flexible solution but he will have to learn it, so without that he needs a system.

SQL Alchemy and its ilk even removes the SQL and the by hand analysis and construction of the data, that you seem to be advocating, so wrong again :)

The CRMs will already have modeled the SQL structures, so he doesn't need to know it, so again wrong :)

See, most write SQL structures that can be expanded, I like to refer to it as meta tables, it was more evident when Oracle and Sybase was inforce (due to licensing), but it is still used to allow the user to extend data stored, but not change the data structure.

Sure, still knowing the ins and outs of SQL is useful, but it is only critical if you are building big systems. And really SQL is not much of language until you get into the plSQL or plpgSQL styles.

I do enjoy someone's rant, but boy you shot without covering your own particulars.

Subbynet

25th December 2008, 08:52

Actually Dave a SQL server won't do anything for you... Unless you happen to have staff use Queries as a normal method of adding/removing data.

So I'm going to say to you - Wrong!

Thanks for the amusement during this festive period!

sm1

25th December 2008, 13:31

Cheers all! And I thought it was only SEO's that argued!!!!! :p

Some of the technological 'bits' are over my head but ...

I see what Martin's saying about a CRM. I think what we might do is something that's more tailored to our needs - create a simple CRM ... add/remove customer data, add notes to each customer, an area for staff to leave notes, login system for each member of staff.

That way, it will be tailored to our needs, it will be in a MySQL database and all perfectly formatted, so if we transfer later on, it can be pulled out easily and if we ever want to query it for anything else, then it will be ok.

Cheers all and Merry Christmas!! :)

FireFleur

25th December 2008, 13:43

Good decision, all you need is something simple, that is expandable.

As long as the data is in a format that you can dump and manipulate you can grow the system to meet your needs. It is wise to grow systems nowadays.

sm1

25th December 2008, 14:03

Cheers - makes sense to start simple and then add features when we grow. If the data is in a constistent universal format, I can't see it being an issue.

Thanks! :)

DBMark

26th December 2008, 09:26

Cheers - makes sense to start simple and then add features when we grow. If the data is in a constistent universal format, I can't see it being an issue.

Thanks! :)

To a certain extent you're correct. You can always migrate data to other systems if need be, at a later date. In fact, although Excel can be a real pain for queries that arise, you can always start there and migrate to a rdbms (database system) later.

However please try to get an IT geek to look over the format of your data. The design of your data fields now will have an impact for years. For example, how are you recording names? "Mr J Smith"; "Smith; John"; "Mr; John ; Smith" Can you see potential problems? Addresses - how many fields do you think you'll need? Postcodes and telephone numbers also need consideration as to how you design the data fields (especially if you think you may be trading overseas). What entry will be permitted if the value is not yet known? Will entries be limited to a drop-down list (recommended for many fields) or are you going to allow free entry (which can quickly lead to differently spelt duplication of certain fields).

One last thing (I realise you may well have this in hand), if you're saving personal data you will need to know about the requirements of the Data Protection Act. Even if a lot of small businesses ignore this, it is still a legal requirement.

Good Luck!

sm1

26th December 2008, 13:15

Hi Mark,

Thanks for that. Ye, I will split out my fields as much as possible, so it will be

Title
First Name
Last Name

etc. so that the data can be manipulated in as many ways as possible. It's easier to split it all now, and then bring it together at a later stage, then have it all together now and need to be cleansed.

As you rightly mention, we will try and keep as many options as preset info, to keep it uniform etc. :)

Thanks for the heads up on Data Protection - will be looking into it all (the joys! :rolleyes:)

Cheers! :)

Mortime Business Software

26th December 2008, 13:55

Have a reread of the original post, if anything it looks like he wants to store the data in the immediate future and access it in the distant.

Okay. As you wish. Let's have another look at the original post...

...Should I, so that in the future...

All I can see here is a reference to "the future". Not the "distant future" as you are suggesting.

The original post continues...

...I can get phone numbers easily, or pull all email addresses easily?

I would wager that he would want those phone numbers, email addresses, and lots of other useful information according to some conditions. I would also wager that, as his experience of extracting useful information from simple data grows, his conditions will also grow in complexity.

This is very helpful for the efficiency of a business, and some of the reasons why businesses grow is down to how its data in all departments is used.

SQL is the most flexible solution but he will have to learn it

SQL is for everyone to use and can be immensely useful even for very small systems. The database owner does not have to know anything about SQL. All he needs is a conceptual data model consisting of an entity-relationship diagram, a list of table headings (possibly with the primary and foreign keys indicated) and perhaps the list of constraints. Armed with this document, and with just a few hours practice, the owner will be able to identify information that he would never have dreamed existed using another system to merely "store" the data.

Even for a very small one-man business, SQL can realise the awesome power of this creative thinking. Also, the conceptual data model is an integral part of an adaptation of the 'waterfall model' and, because of its simplicity, is widely used to assist negotiations between engineers and stakeholders who know nothing about data organisation.

SQL Alchemy and its ilk even removes the SQL...

Oh dear!

To imply that mapping data held in databases to non-scalar objects eliminates the need for SQL is utter nonsense. There is no such animal which can make this happen apart from one which is as comprehensive as SQL itself, in which case, why bother? :)

...and the by hand analysis...

I didn't think it could get any worse, but it just did! :(

...and construction of the data

Obviously you have completely missed the point of enhancements such as SQLAlchemy.

Let's take a look at a couple of statements from the SQLAlchemy website...

SQLAlchemy doesn't view databases as just collections of tables;...

I should jolly well hope not!

I only wish the same was true of the incompetent army of so called programmers and coders which are currently roaming the web like hordes of pathetic little jackals who are RIPPING PEOPLE OFF left, right and centre.

...it sees them as relational algebra engines.

The statement above gives me absolutely no confidence in the people involved in the SQLAlchemy project.

The relations of a relational database are values for relational algebra to operate on, just like numbers are values for the arithmetic operators to operate on. That is, they are operands - not "relational algebra engines"!

But anyway, relational algebra is the 'pen and paper' mathematics performed by humans, and which SQL is based on. Therefore, contrary to what you seem to be suggesting, SQL is not going to become obsolete any time soon!

The CRMs will already have modeled the SQL structures, so he doesn't need to know it,

The last time I looked, application processes were still incapable of reading a person's mind! ;)

Sure, still knowing the ins and outs of SQL is useful, but it is only critical if you are building big systems. And really SQL is not much of language until you get into the plSQL or plpgSQL styles.

FF. This is getting ridiculous now.

What is the underlying language of PL/SQL?

What is the language used in application processes which access databases?

;)

Also, can you please show me where I said that SQL enhancements should not be used?

You should think of brain+SQL as providing the clever bits in database access. Of course stored procedures, whether provided by the DBMS or the owner of the database, are indispensable for writing commonly used functionality once within the database. But the vast majority of functionality will be located within application processes, and may be specific to a particular application process and which may access the database from anywhere.

you shot without covering your own particulars.

On the contrary. Answers like yours and Subbynet's serve as a very healthy boost to my ego because they remind me of how relatively good I really am! :)

Hey, no hard feelings mate. Merry Christmas.

Dave

Mortime Business Software

26th December 2008, 14:18

Actually Dave a SQL server won't do anything for you... Unless you happen to have staff use Queries as a normal method of adding/removing data.

Subby. How do think application processes which are normally used for data insert-update-delete communicate with the DBMS?

What if all of your applications will not give you the type of information that you fell asleep wondering about last night? Who do you turn to?

Depriving any data administrator in any company of the power of the information he can extract from even a very small database consisting of just a few entity types each with only the bare essential attributes would be like depriving him of oxygen.

*Every* company should employ a data administrator. If a small business cannot afford one, then the role should be adopted by an existing employee.

The OP has already started performing this duty - a very smart move. All I am trying to do in this thread is ensure that he gets *proper* advice instead of only techno-specific and vendor-specific suggestions.

I would say that the lack of good data administration in most small businesses is the main reason why many small businesses remain small.

SQL is an invaluable tool for the data administrator, and the investment in time taken to learn the basics is also truly invaluable.

By the way, I do not profess to be an SQL guru, and do not intend to become one. What I do realise is that it is the *only* tool which can realise my ad-hoc thoughts into useful information.

Anyway, I do hope there are no hard feelings, so all the best and a merry Christmas to you all. :)

Dave

sm1

26th December 2008, 16:31

Thanks Dave - Can't say I understand every point there :rolleyes: but thanks :)

FireFleur

26th December 2008, 18:04

Bizarre :)

>>> By the way, I do not profess to be an SQL guru, and do not intend to become one.

I think we get that one ;)

SQL Alchemy is quite clever, it allows a combination of techniques to be used, trust me those guys are good and understand databases very well. You can still use SQL if you like, but you can also have it abstracted into oblivion.

sm1 could learn some python, there are lots of ways to store data using Python; pickle, shelf, random file access or even just importing lists or dictionaries. Then it is just a matter of using SQL Alchemy modules to create a database and access it from there.

There is a major difference between SQL and the procedural languages used in databases; SQL is not the foundation it is the bolt on, if you are just using SQL you are not proficient in databases.

Generally, professional databases are ones that only allows access via an API provided by functions.

Now as to the charlatans, who are ripping people off, as you say, I would say anyone who is a data administrator and doesn't know sed and awk are the make believe data experts :)

Oh and this comment:

>>> On the contrary. Answers like yours and Subbynet's serve as a very healthy boost to my ego because they remind me of how relatively good I really am!

Well, put your talents where your mouth is, I challenge you to a code off, winner gets bragging rights. So, want to know if your ego boost is true or just a delusion? ;)

sm1

26th December 2008, 18:20

Well, put your talents where your mouth is, I challenge you to a code off, winner gets bragging rights. So, want to know if your ego boost is true or just a delusion?

Well, I certainly understood this bit :) Fancy making the CRM then for free ;) hahaha :) Let's be real, I'm only after something simple :D

FireFleur

26th December 2008, 18:43

I thought you may want that sm1, but this is a matter of honour, above commercial concerns.

Though, you may end up with one out of it, who knows :)

sm1

26th December 2008, 19:38

Haha - I'm only messing ;) Although if anyone would I'm sure I wouldn't turn it away :D:D !!

FireFleur

26th December 2008, 20:29

Well, it could be doing a CRMS in assembly, IA32 platform cross compiled to both Linux and Windows.

Assembly is the great leveller, if someone knows their stuff in IT they know it from the CPU and the bus up, otherwise they are, and how does it go again:

>>> ... the incompetent army of so called programmers and coders which are currently roaming the web like hordes of pathetic little jackals who are RIPPING PEOPLE OFF left, right and centre.

I am sure Dave is an assembly whizz, I will have to brush up on my skills as I go, I haven't touched assembly for at least a week, but I am sure I will be able to keep up; and hopefully C, Perl and Python hasn't spoiled me too much.

This could form the basis of the 'Code Off', all claims of competence to be proved in the Great Leveller that is Assembly, no assembly code no claim to competence :)

computaguy

26th December 2008, 20:38

sm1.

Others have mentioned a few of these points but I would like to reiterate one or two.

MS Access is without doubt the best introductory database system. It is small and self contained making multiple bakups a simple case of a timed batch file. It will work quite happily with millionos of records (never mind what people say about limitations, I have a database of every single postcode in the UK linked to a street address. Works perfectly). There is one limitation. If the database reaches 2Gb in size it will stop accepting new data.

Additionally, if you decide later to migrate to a mysql database the information will port happily as long as you have not used names for fields that are reserved words in MYSQL.

The front end should definitely be a CRM that is developed with your business in mind.

The only reservation about using MS Access as a starting point is the following:

If you are going to allow your sales force to access the database remotely, you must bear in mind that the performance of Access will be seriously lower than MYSQL or MSSQL. This is because MYSQL uses a server side cursor (transferring only the required records across the net) whereas access uses a client side cursor, transferring a whole bunch of useless information before sorting out what is really needed.

Also some SQL functions supported in MS Access and MSSQL are not in fact supported in MYSQL.

The most important and commonly used of these is the use of the DISTINCT keyword that in Access will return only a unique record. Consequently during the porting of your data, some extra functions may have to be written to cope with these differences.

I am going to mention this only because you mention a code off. I already have the application in place and ready. Written for an IFA I would be happy tolet you have details and web site details but I do not want to be accused of spamming the post.

Sorry about the long post but Ihope that some of this is useful.

Cheers

C

computaguy

26th December 2008, 20:52

Oh one or two other things to the thread contributors.

I only program in high level languages. I know nothing of assembler except the theory of what it is. I hope that doesn't mean that I am ripping people off by giving the client exactly what they want :eek:

The guys and gals who know much more than I do about the inner workings/assembler and other technologies are the people I approach when I need their expertise. I think the central thing here is that I seem to be among the minority of programmers who are still not afraid to use the words "I don't know" or "I will get the best information and come back to you". This is a service and not a con.

Regarding databasing: I do have a lot of experience in this field and have written many databases handling shed loads of information. I HAVE had to ask someone else's advice on one occasion when dealing with GPRS data reception and interpretation prior to storing in a MYSQL database for a vehicle tracking application. Strangely he didn't mention anything about me ripping off the client:eek:

Happy new year to you all

Cheers

C

DotNetWebs

26th December 2008, 21:07

...
Oh and this comment:

>>> On the contrary. Answers like yours and Subbynet's serve as a very healthy boost to my ego because they remind me of how relatively good I really am!

Well, put your talents where your mouth is, I challenge you to a code off, winner gets bragging rights. So, want to know if your ego boost is true or just a delusion? ;)

Nice one FireFleur. I can't wait to see how Dave responds to this. I have always thought that Dave's responses are overly 'academic' being based entirely on his Open University studies (as well as often missing the point being made and being overtly pedantic about his interpretation of other poster's words or phrase etc. )

Anyway it will be great to see him put his money where mouth is on a 'practical' application.

Regards

Dotty

ken_uk

26th December 2008, 21:38

For the love of god, dont write a practical real life application in assembler, it will take such a long time to write that someone in a higher level lang, or using third party apps would have such a advantage over you (they would already be collecting and using data long before you get it done) that you would be at a disadvantage.

Not only that, when the developer moves on, or gets hit by a bus, or becomes unable to maintain it for whatever reason, then you will have a really hard time getting anyone that can maintain or develop it. If you do find someone, it will take much longer for them to get up to speed, and it will be incredibly more expensive than if it was in a higher level language.

Assembler is great to know as a foundation, so you understand how things work, it can come in handy for certain critical parts of some apps, where ultimate speed is needed, or for low level time critical parts of embedded apps etc, but its not really a ideal tool for todays bigger apps.

FireFleur

26th December 2008, 21:52

Well no one is advocating a commercial project be done wholly in assembly :)

Though, you would be surprised what can be achieved in assembly quite quickly.

Anyway this is for a Code Off, matter of honour ;)

sm1

27th December 2008, 00:10

Cheers guys - some of this is above me, but I'm following :D

Chris - thanks for that. I think from what you've said and my knowledge, an online database would be better than Access :).

Cheers

sm1

27th December 2008, 00:11

And if I could have a look at what you created for the IFA, please PM me :)

Cheers

Subbynet

27th December 2008, 10:37

Subby. How do think application processes which are normally used for data insert-update-delete communicate with the DBMS?

Dave you just don't "get it" - do you? :rolleyes::p

sm1

27th December 2008, 20:16

Cheers all - think I've an idea now :)

Mortime Business Software

31st December 2008, 22:31

Well, put your talents where your mouth is, I challenge you to a code off, ...

Well, I've never been involved in something quite so childish-sounding as a "code off" before, so I don't really know what FireFleur is talking about, but hey, let's do it! :)

FireFleur. Why don't you state your conditions, and then I'll get back to you with my conditions, and eventually we may land within a space where we can punch it out?

Oh and by the way Everyone. Did you notice that Dotty, the old, worn-out, 23-YEAR-VETERAN, has suddenly been reduced to poking around the bums of people who he thinks might be able to stick up for him?

Yuk! Pathetic aint it?

Yes, that's right folks, DotNetWebs has been POSING as a programmer for 23 YEARS now, and does not have a single academic qualification to reinforce his existence in the industry.

In my opinion, this is UNACCEPTABLE, but some of you more left-wing, do-gooder, politically-correct, soft-hearted folk may disagree. ;)

Dotty - do your own dirty work you COWARD.

LOL! :)

Anyway, c'mon FF, what are your skills as far as database design is concerned?

LET'S GO!

Dave

sm1

31st December 2008, 22:34

Easy now - calm it down - it's almost new year! - the challenge is to build me a CRM and I'll decide the winner ;) haha

Mortime Business Software

31st December 2008, 22:52

trust me those guys are good and understand databases very well

NO FireFleur! We will NOT "trust you" without some proof!

Just because YOU SAY that "those guys are good" does not mean that those guys are good!

I have already shown you why "those guys" are not trustworthy.

Who the hell do you think you, and "those guys" are?

Dave

Mortime Business Software

1st January 2009, 01:11

Okay FireFleur! Here goes!

Yawwwn!

FireFleur. Since you have not identified any specific problems or design patterns within your childish little "challenge", I hereby offer one before your highness ...

Tell us what you would do about the following... (Dotty, you old bum, you may join in if you think you have the nouse).

Suppose that the following problem is from a statement of requirements. This is VERY, very simple boys, and serves a quick tester for you ...

"Each street has exactly one postcode, and each postcode corresponds to one or more streets."

Now what are you going to do?

Dave

Mortime Business Software

1st January 2009, 01:14

Dotty.

Gordon Brown has a degree in History, but has tried to fulfil a role which obviously requires at least a degree in Economics.

LOOK AT THE CURRENT STATE OF THE UK ECONOMY!

By the same token, YOU have NO QUALIFICATIONS AT ALL in computing, but yet you try to fulfil a role which requires a degree in Computing!

Who are you trying to kid?

:)

Dave

sm1

1st January 2009, 01:36

Dave - Firstly - why are you talking to yourself? :eek:

Secondly - I wouldn't say programming needs a degree, but experience.

Mortime Business Software

1st January 2009, 02:32

Secondly - I wouldn't say programming needs a degree, but experience.

In order to make this assertion, I take it that you have both a computing degree, and enough computing experience to assert that your computing degree was an unnecessary inconvenience.

Is that right?

Dave

Mortime Business Software

1st January 2009, 03:08

Dave - Firstly - why are you talking to yourself?

Stefan. Where did you get this idea from?

Please show us some evidence of where I was talking to myself.

I was responding to the idiotic remarks made against me.

What drugs are you taking?

Dave

Mortime Business Software

1st January 2009, 03:22

Dave you just don't "get it" - do you?

Get WHAT?

What are you on about?

If you think you're such a huge authority on database design, relational theory and practice, then why don't you indulge all of us ignorant idiots with your superior, divine knowledge instead of making those stupid little emoticon faces which you think establish some kind of valid argument?

Unless you can respond properly, I have no alternative but to regard you as a complete idiot and therefore ignore you henceforth.

Dave

DotNetWebs

1st January 2009, 09:25

...Oh and by the way Everyone. Did you notice that Dotty, the old, worn-out, 23-YEAR-VETERAN, has suddenly been reduced to poking around the bums of people who he thinks might be able to stick up for him?

Yuk! Pathetic aint it?

Yes, that's right folks, DotNetWebs has been POSING as a programmer for 23 YEARS now, and does not have a single academic qualification to reinforce his existence in the industry.

In my opinion, this is UNACCEPTABLE, but some of you more left-wing, do-gooder, politically-correct, soft-hearted folk may disagree. ;)

Dotty - do your own dirty work you COWARD...

Hi Dave

I noticed you posted this at 23:31 ON NEW YEARS EVE! - This is a time that most of use spend at parties or worth friends and families not insulting people in response to a post made over a week ago.

Happy New Year!

Regards

Dotty

Subbynet

1st January 2009, 11:09

Get WHAT?

What are you on about?

If you think you're such a huge authority on database design, relational theory and practice, then why don't you indulge all of us ignorant idiots with your superior, divine knowledge instead of making those stupid little emoticon faces which you think establish some kind of valid argument?

Unless you can respond properly, I have no alternative but to regard you as a complete idiot and therefore ignore you henceforth.

Dave

Thanks Dave,

Again, I'm still going to say you just don't "get it"!

Thoughtout this thread you have failed to provide any solutions to the OP's problems. If you really took the effort of reading the thread properly, you'll know Database Design isn't the primary concern - for the following reason - I never asked the OP to design and code his own systems - you did.

You seem to jump on threads interjecting your own questions, and then you act all smart by answering it.... Nice one. Now give the OP information that he can take away, and goes further than "Code it all yourself" - because lets be honest, that's all you've said in this thread.

You might think your a brilliant academic, but let me tell you something, I'd never employ you, you lack social skills and moral judgements. I believe you're nothing but a sad lonely man who has no friends and no life.

Anyone who can find time to come on-line between the hours of 23:45 and 04:30 when most of the nation is with loved ones, seeing in the new year with good cheer, but here you are, no doubt all alone sitting at home, with just the computer for companionship. You stewed in this thread for hours and kept it in mind for over a week.

And guess what my friend, if you ever spoke to me like that to my face I'd wipe the floor with you and instil a little respect which your severely lacking.

Please Dave, ignore me by all means, I don't want to speak to you anyway.

Egotistical *******!

alex-m

1st January 2009, 15:57

This thread is crazy.

To the OP:
Surely there is an off the shelf product or webapp that you could use for this purpose. As a non-developer you shouldn't really have to know or even care what something like MySQL is.

sm1

1st January 2009, 16:45

Hi Alex,

Cheers - they all seem a little bit over the top. The reason why I want to know and care about MySQL is to understand what it could do for the business and the data it could hold so we can manipulate it to our needs.

The closest product off the shelf is www.highrisehq.com - but I'd like access to all of our data, and to be able to modify it to our needs in the future, when the company expands. Also, we'd need a mix between basecamp and highrise.

If we can start simple and then build up :)

Cheers

alex-m

1st January 2009, 16:56

Maybe a bespoke system could work for you? But you'll be lucky to get anything near as well produced as the 37signals stuff.

My advice is to just get stuck in to your business and for now just use a simple spreadsheet or Access DB or whatever. You are charging your customers right? Well when the time comes that you need something a little more polished it will be a "nice problem" if you understand what I mean. Too many paying customers to handle! Then go out and find a good developer maybe?

Anyway, I wouldn't dwell on these technical things. Just get started :)

sm1

1st January 2009, 17:57

Tej

1st January 2009, 20:20

Cheers - ye I agree, it's well produced, but at the moment, we just want something very simple. The problem with Access and Spreadsheets is that they need to be accessed by multiple users and updated.

Indeed I need to get started! - might just get something cheap and cheerful (not oretty) simple system going. As long as the data is saved, it can be used later on :)

Cheers

Exactly.. you need to get started. ..keep it simple.. note that your business has been in preparation stage..

" Do not throw money out of the window, before it comes in through the door"

Good luck and a very happy and prosperous new year

sm1

1st January 2009, 20:22

Cheers - good saying, and definitely agree :)

Thanks for your kind words and many happy returns to you too :)

paul1664

1st January 2009, 20:52

Access is designed to be multiuser. Just put the .mdb file in a shared folder somewhere. You should be fine for up to a dozen users or so. Of course... they need to be on the same network!

If you *must* go the spreadsheet route check out Google Docs shared spreadsheet. I've only taken a quick look but it may fit your needs.

sm1

1st January 2009, 21:47

Thanks - It's multi-user for remote users. So there won't be no network, all internet based. I'll have a think.

Cheers

garyk

1st January 2009, 23:03

There is a major difference between SQL and the procedural languages used in databases; SQL is not the foundation it is the bolt on, if you are just using SQL you are not proficient in databases.

Sorry that is just plain absurd, stating that any RDBMS has SQL as a bolt-on is plain wrong. They are built around SQL parsers/pre-processors and it is the first feature they embrace to deliver even basic functionality. Take mySQL, it has supported standard ANSI SQL (probably 92 dialect) since its inception but only recently added support for stored procedures in version 5 which are the procedural languages you allude to, but which themselves typically encompass SQL set oriented pieces of code to actually process the data.

I would argue that using standard ANSI 92 SQL makes you more proficient simply because it makes the code portable, you go the Oracle PLSQL/ MSSQL TSQL route and straight away you hit problems if you are moving between them. Procedural code in databases encourages poor practice, using cursors when you do not need to is one such example.

Generally, professional databases are ones that only allows access via an API provided by functions.

I didnt see the reference to this approach but I would question why? You dont need to use an API when using any data access layer you get instant visibility of stored procs/views/tables/functions etc.

Gary

FireFleur

1st January 2009, 23:35

Well it is not absurd, it depends how you look at the system.

Most RDBMS systems are built using data structures modeled in C, SQL is the abstraction layer above that - hence the bolt on :)

MySQL is a database with an interchangeable engine, and this illustrates the bolt-on nature of SQL even more, ISAM (now MyISAM :) ), cluster InnoDB are the formats of data storage, SQL is being applied in an abstraction layer above.

PostgreSQL even allows for C style API, which allows for excellent scalability. C itself is an abstraction over assembly, though at least it self compiles :)

The API I was refering to though was the use of plpgSQL functions as the API to the application server. It is makes for better security and performance, you should not be interfacing at the SQL level from the application server unless through functions.

There are things you cannot do in SQL, so unless you use functions, you will be forced to do those on the application side, so your argument of portability is a moot one, what you are encouraging is bad practice. Business logic is best modelled in the DB and interface modelled in the application server, and then in a sub template system inside the app server.

Second Guess

2nd January 2009, 01:05

We use prospectsoft but have had a bespoke system created by a programmer tailored to our needs.

This has enabled us to expand from just a few staff to now 20 accross 5 cities all able to access the same databases and handle clients data cntrally.

garyk

2nd January 2009, 10:08

MySQL is a database with an interchangeable engine, and this illustrates the bolt-on nature of SQL even more, ISAM (now MyISAM :) ), cluster InnoDB are the formats of data storage, SQL is being applied in an abstraction layer above.

Point taken FF, mySQL was perhaps the only RDBMS that offers this as the long established offerings Oracle, MSSQL and DB2 offer...sql, sql and more sql :)

PostgreSQL even allows for C style API, which allows for excellent scalability. C itself is an abstraction over assembly, though at least it self compiles :)

Perhaps but I still dont see the point of using an API for a database unless you need to do something really clever. The whole notion of using an RDBMS is to scale your number of users and queries, and the result sets something you do using SQL because SQL was created, and is optimised for working with sets of data.

There are things you cannot do in SQL, so unless you use functions, you will be forced to do those on the application side, so your argument of portability is a moot one, what you are encouraging is bad practice. Business logic is best modelled in the DB and interface modelled in the application server, and then in a sub template system inside the app server.

Actually when I do code (which isnt as often these days) thats exactly what I do, write SP's, views and functions that reside in MSSQL to make the front end quite simple. However the purists would argue that this approach is in fact wrong. You should be using a 3 tier model where you have a presentation layer (UI), business layer and then the data layer.

So whilst I do agree with your portability sentiment (because its not what I strictly adhere to) there is an argument, plenty of commercial apps, and a whole vertical sector built around data access/object persistence layers to make their solutions database agnostic.

Happy new year!

FireFleur

2nd January 2009, 10:49

Yes, this discussion did suddenly go very wide because of someone and their claims :)

All database are just hung over data structures, oracle, sybase are closed systems but there is no magic, someone wrote the code and designed the data structures that could be modelled, it is all abstraction over assembly really hence the challenge to someone :)

SQL wasn't created for scalability, it was more ease of use, easier to train someone in SQL instead of using a hardcore coder, the engines are what give the scalability, not SQL.

And SQL systems were not king until the web really, before that LDAP systems were more prominent.

Even today BerkleyDB shows that SQL based systems are a little clunky when performance is required, here is the Oracle page on it :

http://www.oracle.com/technology/products/berkeley-db/index.html

I tend to use BDB when performance is required, though there is SQLite as well.

http://www.sqlite.org/

SQL is just a simple language to allow access to data, it is not great but it is flexible. And sure you should know SQL, but the power is in the functions and procedures. The thing to realise is it is unlikely you will change your database, especially when you use Postgres :), but even if you had to you can dump the data out easily, and if you template your functions you can transfer it over with not much effort.

Old school thinking has changed, and SQL alchemy is a good example of this van guard, databases need to be viewed from a more flexible view point.

No one should feel intimidated or have any awe for them, they are just buckets to store info, and the structure that the data is stored in will change over time as bottle necks are identified and new data needs to be modeled.

So, the idea is to evolve the systems rather than see them as being set in stone, which is what the 'purist' thought mentality is, really they are just the early guys to Oracle and they don't like change :)

RDBMS are just another tool, and to be honest I tend to use data structures in a templating system over a database, if there is no multi user access. And it is trivial to dump that structure into a DB. The Django project (recently adopted for the Google Cloud), uses that approach as well, it is simpler to store data in one place, and just use the DB as a tool in the mix.

computaguy

2nd January 2009, 15:36

Hasn't this thread got way out of control? Terms and conditions of the forum say that members should avoid gratuitously slaggin eachother off for the sake of it.

The OP simply asked one question. Should he, or should he not migrate data into a MYSQL database. Furore about the relative merits, personal abilities and slating of eachother's abilities is simply testosteron based ***** fencing.

The simple answer to the OPs question is:

Yes. Without question you data is better off in a structured database than a simple spreadhseet arrangement. Beyond that you should find a programmer or provider that will talk to you about what you want from the data.

Above all: Avoid any programmer who claims to "know it all..." or who says "My competition know nothing...". Thes best programmers are th ones who will admit when they need to research the answer to a query.

owbe

2nd January 2009, 17:21

Everything that can be organised for me, is organised. And generally in MySQL databases. Querying is effective and simple and super quick, if you know what you're doing =]

sm1

2nd January 2009, 19:02

Cheers both for the simple clarification :)

FireFleur

3rd January 2009, 10:19

Yes. Without question you data is better off in a structured database than a simple spreadhseet arrangement. Beyond that you should find a programmer or provider that will talk to you about what you want from the data.

Well, in truth the better place for the data is in a data structure in a high level language, that is the best place for it, from there it could go LDAP or an RDBMS.

The other place would be pen and paper, an often overlooked scenario, OCR (optical character recognition) is quite good nowadays, might be the better solution for sm1.

Above all: Avoid any programmer who claims to "know it all..." or who says "My competition know nothing...". Thes best programmers are th ones who will admit when they need to research the answer to a query.

I like this comment, it sort of attacks itself :) Yeah, sure any developer should have an extensive library of technical books, that is the foundation. Wandering around with no formal training or experience is not clever, but it can be amusing.

The best developers don't have to research every little problem, those are the worst developers, but if the problem is extensive and the ramifications of failure are large then research should always be done.

When project managing, it is common to assign a productivity rating to development, and those researching are going to find they score very low. And rightly so, most of the information is known by those who have trained and done prior research.

But, something like the storage of contact details is one of those problems addressed at GCSE computer science level and it is something that keeps reoccuring, primarily because business is about people. So, most know how to create these storage systems and most have opinion and preference on how it should be done.

Mortime Business Software

3rd January 2009, 15:19

Well, it could be doing a CRMS in assembly, IA32 platform cross compiled to both Linux and Windows.

Assembly is the great leveller, if someone knows their stuff in IT they know it from the CPU and the bus up...

You don't even know what 'IT' actually means do you? It stands for Information Technology which includes a lot more than CPU's or any other electronic circuitry.

Information technology arose as a result of 'thoughts' about data, information and the computing of the stuff.

IT has existed since at least the time of the ancient Greeks - or are you suggesting that Plato used an electronic CPU for some of his studies! :)

I am sure Dave is an assembly whizz, I will have to brush up on my skills as I go, I haven't touched assembly for at least a week, but I am sure I will be able to keep up; and hopefully C, Perl and Python hasn't spoiled me too much.

No I am not an assembly whizz. I don't need to be an assembly whizz and nor do the vast majority of engineers, programmers and coders.

To suggest that they do is ridiculous, and is like saying that a painter needs to find the minerals and other chemicals with which to manufacture his paint from the hills!

You have now chosen the weapons of your choice for this "challenge". I will outline my criteria later today. This suits me fine because I will use my higher level and more up to date weapons.

This could form the basis of the 'Code Off', all claims of competence to be proved in the Great Leveller that is Assembly, no assembly code no claim to competence

This shows how uneducated you are.

Have you not heard of 'low level' and 'high level'? What do you think these terms mean?

Why do you assume that you have the right to issue a challenge to me AND choose my weapons for me?

Let me remind you that this thread is about database design, not any specific language or intellectual tool.

I will choose my own weapons thank you.

Dave

sm1

3rd January 2009, 15:27

Uh oh - there's going to be a code off!

DotNetWebs

3rd January 2009, 15:38

...This shows how uneducated you are....

Hello Dave

I take it you have finished your degree now then? If you have then judging by your original post on this forum then you can only have had your degree a matter of months?

I have enjoyed the banter with you on this forum over the years but after the rant you made against me earlier in this thread and your recent habit of trying to belittle people with every post, I am wondering whether it has gone all to your head. :rolleyes:

Regards

Dotty

Mortime Business Software

3rd January 2009, 15:45

if you are just using SQL you are not proficient in databases.

LOL! I have never heard anything as ridiculous in all my life!

I think I may have got it wrong about you not wanting DotNetWebs on your team, I think it may be the other way around! :)

Querying databases is only a small part of organising data into databases. As I've already explained in an earlier thread, this is a branch of mathematics which could still be implemented even if all the electric power were to fail right now!

<<<CONGRATULATE garyk ON A GOOD POST IN POST NUMBER #72.>>>

Generally, professional databases are ones that only allows access via an API provided by functions.

LOL! FireFleur. You have completely missed my point about permitting "ad-hoc" SQL queries on a database. This also indicates that you are still an amateur.

Think about it, in a particular database, as the number of entities and relationships between those entities increase, the number of queries which are possible also increases, and at a much faster rate.

You cannot realistically hope to encapsulate every possible query within the methods of an application.

It would be a little like defining a large finite set of numbers, and then trying to write down the answer to every possible arithmetic operation in order to try and shield the user from actually doing the arithmetic.

So again, you are talking utter, uneducated and unthoughtful nonsense.

Okay. I hereby challenge you to building an extension on the side of a house. You can go forth into the hills and hew the minerals and mud with which to make your bricks, whilst I go to B&Q and buy some bricks! LOL! :)

You can also go chop down some trees and find a good hand-saw with which to fashion your required timbers, and I will measure up the site and buy my timber from B&Q while I'm buying the bricks! LOL! :)

Have you any idea what you sound like?

Dave

Mortime Business Software

3rd January 2009, 16:11

but after the rant you made against me earlier in this thread

Dotty. How old are you? Are you suffering from dementia or something?

Why do you persist in refusing to read the messages properly?

It was YOU who jumped into this thread and started trying to discredit ME!

Knock-knock! Don't you remember?

You gleefully posted a really childish message just after FF posted his childish challenge!

...I am wondering whether it has gone all to your head. :rolleyes:

Here's another one folks - who thinks that those silly, childish little 'rolleyes' emoticons form a valid argument!

Er ... did you have anything relevant to contribute or what?

Dave

DotNetWebs

3rd January 2009, 16:45

...It was YOU who jumped into this thread and started trying to discredit ME!...

Dave I didn't insult you the way you have insulted me in this thread.

All I said was that your posts seemed overly 'academic' and pedantic as I had given up trying to make my point to you in this thread:

http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=719351&postcount=128

You implied that the ASP.NET JIT compiler affects execution speed of ASP.NET applications.

I said that in practice it didn't but rather than except this you seemed to want to twist my words and draw me into a non-existent argument.

After you laughed at my replies and implied they "boost' your ego, as well as calling two other people in that thread "stupid", I saw this thread and thought that it would give you the opportunity to show us how good you really are!

Regards

Dotty

Interconnect IT

3rd January 2009, 16:58

Heh - Dave... I've locked horns with you before.

I think you're a clever guy with a lot of knowledge and understanding, albeit not so much real-world, but still.

But when you make statements like:

Yes, that's right folks, DotNetWebs has been POSING as a programmer for 23 YEARS now, and does not have a single academic qualification to reinforce his existence in the industry.

... you immediately antagonise folk and put them on the defensive. What does it matter if someone has a degree (or other formal education) in something or not? Getting a driving license didn't make Lewis Hamilton a better racing driver.

Anyway, it's all become a bit of an odd thread. If someone needs to keep and manage a load of data in a fairly conventional format then the answer is "It depends."

Truth is we don't know enough about the OP's real problem and long term plans. My own view is that a simple Access database is enough for most, but because most people (including a significant chunk of pro developers) struggle to design and structure a database correctly for long term use they end up with a horrid mess of outdated, untrackable and unexportable data that needs a lot of care to move into a CRM system at a future date. Alternatively, like many have suggested, just get started and get used to CRM now and save money and time later.

Database theory doesn't really apply much to 500 records - a spreadsheet or even a simple text file is adequate. Kind of important for five billion records. A good CRM developer will probably have built a far better database structure than most of us could ever manage, and built in a sufficiently powerful reporting engine to cover most needs. Releasing non-experts onto SQL can be a performance disaster - especially if you have security and effective dating to consider. I've never seen inexperienced coders struggle so much as when they tried to create sophisticated joins in PeopleSoft, for example.

Mortime Business Software

3rd January 2009, 17:02

Okay All. I realise that I may not be very well liked by people around here, but please do not let this be a reason for letting this idiot FireFleur brainwash you with fancy jargon and industry-specific terminology.

I have completed the following third level degree course with the Open University...

M359: Relational databases: theory and practice
http://www3.open.ac.uk/courses/bin/p12.dll?C01M359

...which is of the very highest quality, and is intensively rigorous.

Now, ASK Dotty and FireFleur WHAT THEIR QUALIFICATIONS ARE!

FireFleur has issued one challenge to me in this thread, whereas I have issued several simple challenges to him.

HE HAS NOT YET ANSWERED ONE OF THEM!

I believe this is because he can't.

Oh and let's not forget that the other member of the 'three stooges', Subbynet, has offered to show me what he is capable of...

- WITH HIS FISTS!

Beware of doing business with Subbynet - it is clear that he has a violent temper if you do not agree with him.

Dave

Subbynet

3rd January 2009, 17:19

Oh and let's not forget that the other member of the 'three stooges', Subbynet, has offered to show me what he is capable of...

- WITH HIS FISTS!

Beware of doing business with Subbynet - it is clear that he has a violent temper if you do not agree with him.

Dave

Dave,

I don't wish to talk to you, and I don't want you to talk about me. You really don't know me well enough to make the statement you have made above, in fact, you don't know anyone involved in this thread enough to make any assertions at all.

I'm not a violent person, but at the same time I'm no coward, and would never stand for the way you're bullying people in this thread. I feel if we were all sitting in a room you wouldn't even have guts to say what you've said, but its easy from behind a keyboard ain't it?

If you must know, I'm ashamed of this thread, and its a shame this bickering is still taking place, but its not us, its you Dave - you have serious issues.

As far as I'm concerned, this thread is closed.

Mortime Business Software

3rd January 2009, 17:25

But when you make statements like:

Yes, that's right folks, DotNetWebs has been POSING as a programmer for 23 YEARS now, and does not have a single academic qualification to reinforce his existence in the industry.

Is it not true?

If not, then let him deny it.

What are you, his husband or something? Can he not speak for himself?

DaveIT. Stupid 'driving' analogy. You're jumping in on the side of the majority. Very difficult for you to lose. You're so brave! ;)

As for the rest of your post, I haven't got time to read it because of this "challenge" that I am trying to formalise and get an agreement on from FF.

DaveIT. I've read some of your other posts and to be honest, I do not regard you as clever as you regard me. Therefore, I can imagine what a load of shice the rest of your post is! ;)

Therefore, I hope you don't mind if I skip it and dump you into the same 'unimportant' basket as Subbynet! :)

Oh and by the way everyone, keep the personal insults coming, I don't mind them! :)

Dave

alex-m

3rd January 2009, 17:38

Dave what are you trying to achieve here? Why are you so angry?

I'd guess that the majority of posters on this forum don't have a degree. Are you going to try to belittle all of their skills and experience too?

Your qualification from the almighty and prestigious Open University doesn't give you the right to attack anyone on here.

Mortime Business Software

3rd January 2009, 17:39

DaveIT. Enrol on the following course...

http://www3.open.ac.uk/courses/bin/p12.dll?C01M359

...then pass it, then get back to me on what you think the "real world" is. ;)

Dave

Mortime Business Software

3rd January 2009, 17:43

Dave what are you trying to achieve here? Why are you so angry?

Alex. You are also hereby assigned to the 'numb-skull' basket with all of the other unimportant shice that I don't have time for.

:)

Dave

alex-m

3rd January 2009, 17:47

Thanks Dave. But it seems you do have quite a lot of time though - judging by your reluctance to let this thread die, and your posts on new year's eve (while the rest of us were out having a good time).

DotNetWebs

3rd January 2009, 17:57

Is it not true?

If not, then let him deny it....

Dave as you keep pointing out I do not have a computer science degree but as I pointed out earlier, based on this:

http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=13418

IF you have one you have only recently acquired it.

It may surprise you to know that I too have OU credits but NOT in computer science. I began a 'classic' Science degree on a very slow part time basis for my own pleasure only. I am not currently studying due to family and business commitments but as you know the credits will remain valid until such time I am able to pick it up again.

Anyway in the 90s when I began web programming (as a hobby initially) I considered switching to an IT degree but at the time there was no courses that would be directly applicable to the sort of thing I wanted to do.

I have been coding for the web since before most people new what the web was. I have largely taught myself but I am not stupid although I do know my limitations. I do not work on mission critical software for industry etc. I work either alone or with my brother (who has a masters in computer science), mostly on web applications.

The first site in my signature has been 100% coded by me. It uses a complex relational database that contains far more data than is on display to the public. It has different access levels for traders, admins and councilors etc. It uses AJAX, Web Services and other modern techniques. The vast majority of the pages are dynamically generated from the database.

How do you know my data model is poor? and even if it is who am I letting down? My subscribers are happy and do not care about the code behind the site. All they care about is getting good positions on Google and on that I deliver. e.g:

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=horsham+mortgages&btnG=Search&meta=cr%3DcountryUK%7CcountryGB

I have also overcome many other technical problems with my sites that would not be covered by current 'degree' course. For instant this site (which uses the same database as the other one):

www.virtualhorsham.co.uk

Was recognised by Microsoft and a leading magazine as being the first in the world to integrate and replace the Virtual Earth Images with newer images of a large urban area.

I don't like blowing my own trumpet but there are many other things I have achieved that I am proud of.

I am not 'posing' as you put it. I AM DOING. The only reason I interjected in this thread is that after you have told us how great you are so many times: it would be nice to show us what you can DO.

Regards

Dotty

sm1

3rd January 2009, 18:24

I've been having a long think (doesn't happen often :rolleyes:) ... I think I'm jumping a few steps here. I'm imagining we're in a position that we're not. I think that at the moment, this could be a bit unnecessary and those funds could be invested elsewhere. I think what we will do, is make sure the info we need is recorded, but we will use something free and simple, and when we get to a large enough stage, transfer it over.

Sorry to have caused so many debates after all of that :eek:

Interconnect IT

3rd January 2009, 18:34

Oh well - I tried to be rational around Dave Mortimer, but no, he just wants to keep trolling.

Sadly there's no 'ignore' facility on vBulletin as you get on CIX, say, so it's hard for trolls to get sidelined.

I am not 'posing' as you put it. I AM DOING. The only reason I interjected in this thread is that after you have told us how great you are so many times: it would be nice to show us what you can DO.

Well the key defining point of a keyboard warrior is that of someone who can espouse theory but not always create the solution. Yet he can't even understand that professional only means 'paid for' as opposed to 'good.' There's lots of stunningly good amateur programmers, and lots of poor professional ones. But he wishes to use the term amateur towards a professional in a pejorative sense. Well... wow.

But he has the backing of passing a small part of a university course. I mean, whoop-de-doo! We get graduate applications all the time - a significant chunk of them couldn't find their bum in the dark without help, whereas others are clearly destined for greater things.

DM - if you're as talented as you clearly believe you are, then why not come into our office for a chat? It might lead to a job offer. We could even video it in order to show the world your clear talents?

Interconnect IT

3rd January 2009, 18:36

I've been having a long think (doesn't happen often :rolleyes:) ... I think I'm jumping a few steps here. I'm imagining we're in a position that we're not. I think that at the moment, this could be a bit unnecessary and those funds could be invested elsewhere. I think what we will do, is make sure the info we need is recorded, but we will use something free and simple, and when we get to a large enough stage, transfer it over.

Not a bad approach. Have you considered a hosted solution? We keep all customer data in e-conomic. Works fine for us.

ken_uk

3rd January 2009, 18:38

Best way, the longer you stay in the planning stage, the longer you are not collecting the data...

One thing I would add, is capture as much data as possible, try not to throw away any of the input, even if you think you wont need it, your needs may change over time.

A lot of people in the past used to advocate storing the bear minimum of data, but that was due to practical reasons - lack of storage space and processing power. That is not really a issue these days, so its better to have as much data as possible, it will no doubt come in useful one day.

A good programmer will be able to take the data from pretty much any contact management application, most decent apps allow data to be exported, and those that dont a decent programmer should be able to analyse the data structure and devise a means of exporting it out themselves.

Just make sure once you start keeping records on computer, that your very strict on backups, both on and offsite. Also remember how easy it would be for a employee to copy the data and get all your contacts if they wanted to start up on their own, so security of the data should be addressed if you think that could be a problem (also it would have to be addressed under the data protection act etc)

sm1

3rd January 2009, 18:38

Cheers Dave - had a look at various ones, will look into it again.

Are you referring to http://www.e-conomic.co.uk/ ?

ken_uk

3rd January 2009, 18:41

sm1

3rd January 2009, 18:45

Thanks Ken - some good advice there :) Ye, I look to capture loads of details, some so that we can just produce interesting statistics about our (future) clients! :)

Backups and security is something I need to look into, in depth :)

FireFleur

3rd January 2009, 18:56

Oh gosh, fancy industry jargon now :)

I issued you a challenge Dave, if you don't know assembly that is fine.

But, hey I am not going to rise to your trolling man, unfortunately that is your style, most of us discuss you may wish to try it sometime.

What you have been asserting about others, myself included, is wrong, and really only serves to show off your own gaps in knowledge.

Though you get a couple of points for trying to make IT all encompassing, nice attempt to wiggle out of it. :)
---

And sm1, I thought the thread was going quite well, until Mortimer decided to jump in with his ill educated troll.

You have three options really, you can just place the data in text for the moment, delimited by some character you don't use in the data, you can put the data into a high level language data structure such as a python list or dictionary, or you could create some simple sql tables and insert the data into those. You can even work from each of those positions, a text file is fine to start with.

sm1

3rd January 2009, 18:58

Cheers FF - Yes it was going well :) Thanks for the options :)

FireFleur

3rd January 2009, 19:14

Oh I forgot a fourth, which is the CRM idea, that is valid, as long as you can get at the data :)

Actually you got most of them right at the head of thread. The thing to realise though is the varying degree of complexity offered by each approach, it tends to increase. The CRM is probably only installation being the biggest problem, but then it is access to the data after export, someone would need to restructure the data perhaps, so complexity increases along the line form text to CRM.

The most complex would be assembly, but then you couldn't hire DaveM to do that, because he doesn't know it, ignorant is the contracted term there, though he might be able to get his mate Socrates to do it :)

Mortime Business Software

3rd January 2009, 19:24

I read the page about that OU course, the reviews from the students were not that good, quite a lot of unhappy customers who were on that course, apparently it was not well prepared and full of errors.

Wonder what the errors on the course were?

Well, you will only find out yourself for certain if you enrol and actually do the course. :)

Oh but hang on a mo, I think that the course texts are for sale for a few hundred quid, so you can take that route if you like.

But oh no Ken. You were - are - the last hope for common sense, intelligence, truth, whatever may be good in this thread - in this world, surely I will not have to throw you into the basket of 'unimportance' too!

The following may be one reason why some students are pissed off. One group of 25 students performed as follows...

Grade acheived | Number of students
-----------------------------------
Grade 1 | 0
Grade 2 | 1
Grade 3 | 5
Grade 4 | 6
Failed | 13
-----------------------------------

That's a pretty good indication of how difficult the course was.

Here are some other facts.

All students are made aware of all errata.

If any student is not aware of any errata at the time of any assessment or timed examination, then that student is entitled to submit a form stating the reasons why their performance was impeded. The same reasoning is applied to health issues.

Here is another important fact from ME...

There are usually several errors on any given course, but if a student is following the course as conscientously as required to pass the course, then just about ANY error should be spotted by that student and considered in any study, assessment or exam.

Personally, I have never read a single errata sheet because my understanding of the contextual course material is such that I just KNOW where the errors are and I cannot be bluddy bothered tossing around to make sure that my answers are correct because in 99.99999999999999999999...% of cases there is absolutely no other answer which fits!

This is the nature of mathematics.

You should trust ME on this one - not those whinging losers who did not bother to study and practice hard enough and who feel like slagging off the course designers because they could not be bothered to put in the hard slog required to pass the exams for the course.

Dave

Mortime Business Software

3rd January 2009, 19:40

FireFleur.

I cannot help feeling from the tone of your latest posts that you have lost heart in this "challenge".

Remember, that challenge that YOU issued?

Is that right?

I am still busy trying to establish a problem space here which we may both enter using our own weapons.

I am not trying to "wriggle" out of anything, but it sounds as though you ARE.

What's the score here man? Please don't waste my time if you're going to bottle out.

Dave

ken_uk

3rd January 2009, 19:55

Ok Dave, will take your word for what the course was like, after all you did do that course, so know it better than I.

God help the world if I am the last hope for common sense though, but anyways, hope you lot enjoy your code off, coding is more fun than fighting..

FireFleur

3rd January 2009, 20:10

Well Dave if you don't know assembly that is fine, but it is disingenuous of you to claim others are frauds without having that under your belt, it is the basis of all interpretors and compilers.

C is the next step, not quite as challenging, but there should be something that could be done in that arena.

PM me if you like, and we can discuss how to do this in realtime and broadcast to the net.

Mortime Business Software

3rd January 2009, 20:47

Okay. So you want to proceed with YOUR challenge, is that right?

Please, just answer this one question for me so that I am not wasting my time here!

You may even enlist the assistance of DotNetWebs, Subbynet, and anyone else who has contributed to this thread, to be on your team.

Do you want to proceed?

Dave

Mortime Business Software

3rd January 2009, 21:14

DM - if you're as talented as you clearly believe you are, then why not come into our office for a chat? It might lead to a job offer.

I honestly don't want to sound conceited or anything and I mean no offence, but I doubt very much that you would be able to afford me.

Dave

FireFleur

3rd January 2009, 21:59

Good, you're up for assembly that's fine.

I have done a quick logo as well.

http://www.cybeee.org.uk/code-off.png

Right it is one on one, live coding.

I take it you can run GNU Screen over SSH.

Mortime Business Software

4th January 2009, 09:31

Good, you're up for assembly that's fine.

Isn't this rather like a cricketer challenging a footballer to a game of cricket to find out who is the better sportsman?

How many more times FireFleur before it sinks in, I will choose my own implementation tools because using assembly language is just plain stupid. You don't want to believe me because you don't like me, but here is as good an explanation as any from Ken...

For the love of god, dont write a practical real life application in assembler, it will take such a long time to write that someone in a higher level lang, or using third party apps would have such a advantage over you (they would already be collecting and using data long before you get it done) that you would be at a disadvantage.

FireFleur. I can understand your manhood feeling somewhat shrivelled and small at the moment because you've had such a terrible mauling in this thread. This is why you find it necessary to switch to a specific subject where you think you might be more experienced.

Okay, YOU'RE THE WORLD CHAMPION AT ASSEMBLY LANGUAGE! Happy now?

The last time I did any assembler was about five years ago. I covered the first few chapters of "Assembly language for Intel-based computers" by Kip R Irvine. However, I only went into it superficially to get an idea of what happens at the processor level, so I am not an expert and have no real interest in becoming one unless it becomes necessary as part of my work. Also, like any true professional, I realise that I will always know far less than there is to know.

I will use a 'production system' which can be used to design, build, implement, maintain and develop systems ranging from very small to very large.

You can continue to knock up bits of code in your bedroom whilst you live off your parents.

I will be back later today with an outline of "The Challenge". (Yes I know I said that yesterday, but FireFleur looked as though he had bottled it).

Dave

Interconnect IT

4th January 2009, 11:22

I honestly don't want to sound conceited or anything and I mean no offence, but I doubt very much that you would be able to afford me.

You'd be surprised :-)

So clearly you don't wish to come into the office.

Anyhow - perhaps we could arrange something online instead? Something which is reasonably controlled, and which allows you to show us your SQL skills. We're investigating data visualisation technologies and as things build up we'll be needing some real data experts who can pull out data from large corporate databases without slowing things to a crawl. With no signs of your experience in a real working environment we can't obviously take just your word for it, so we do have to test skills out.

Interconnect IT

4th January 2009, 11:27

Cheers Dave - had a look at various ones, will look into it again.

Are you referring to http://www.e-conomic.co.uk/ ?

Yes, yes I am. We started using it just for billing, basic contacts and subscriptions and eventually decided to use it for all our day to day bookkeeping because it allowed me to keep a closer track of things. But you really do need to understanding bookkeeping to make the most of it - other systems are simpler to use in that respect, but I like the 'correct' approach taken by e-conomic.

If you ring them mention us. They're really nice and helpful folk and worked hard with me to get me through various accounting screw ups I made :-)

FireFleur

4th January 2009, 16:48

Interesting Dave Mortimer, at one moment you violently claim everyone is wrong, then the next you claim you don't know, that you are not an expert.

You should be retracting your comments Dave Mortimer, but you plough on with your delusions, and dig yourself in deeper.

So, let's be clear you have refused the challenge because your knowledge is lacking, that's a shame it could have been quite interesting, but you just got too scared.

And that's fundamentally at the root of your problems, you have too much fear in you, and low self esteem, that's what is causing you to lash out. Someone has already done a number on you, it is hard to work out if you know anything, you are probably ok at something in IT but you're not A1 across the board.

I pity you Dave Mortimer, would have thought you could have found a little more courage, but at the moment you are just on a path of self destruction; lashing out at all and sundry. I shouldn't laugh, though some of your comments are quite hilarious, you have some fundamental problems.

Get well soon Dave Mortimer :)

sm1

4th January 2009, 16:50

Cheers Dave (interconnect) - will have a look at it :)

Mortime Business Software

5th January 2009, 03:35

FireFleur. The following is more like what I would call a challenge.

How about we consider something a little more meaty, and take it from concept to completion. This will test both of us on our own skills and each other's skills.

That is, starting from a statement of data requirements, we perform data analysis to arrive at a conceptual data model. From there we move through database design to a logical schema and so on through implementation and the final database schema. During this procedure, a structural model appears almost incidentally, and later we can use this to write the use cases for one or more applications.

I suggest two types of interface for an application:

(1) A desktop interface to a desktop application.

(2) A web interface which is used through a browser to invoke a web application.

Let's make it a distributed application so that the database sits on a server under the management of a single DBMS process. This will have the advantage of allowing customers to purchase only one copy of a DBMS even if they have a multiple user licenses for the application. The application processes of a particular application can make TCP/IP connections to the same server which hosts the web application.

As objects are manipulated on the individual peers, you will need to find a way for each peer to update the central database and each other.

Since Linux seems to be becoming more ubiquitous amongst ordinary users, we should have versions of client applications which work on both UNIX and Windows, but the server hosting the web application may be either UNIX or Windows.

This should satisfy FireFleur's requirement of UNIX-Windows cross-compatibility.

Of course there will be some other details to clarify, the most important of which is probably the choice of weapons.

I cannot see any problem with choosing our own weapons so long as we solve the common problem outlined above. And of course we must decide on the subject matter of the application and data. Do we both work towards a solution for the same problem, or choose two different problems which are about equal in complexity?

We could even post the resulting applications on Sourceforge.

Would all that be "real-world" enough for you DaveIT?

Dave

Interconnect IT

5th January 2009, 07:07

Bloody hell Dave, how much time do you think people have for you?

I mean yes, it's one approach to checking the ability of somebody to build something from concept through to completion, but unless it's an exceedingly simple problem (in which case you prove relatively little) then it's not going to be palatable to either contestant unless they have a lot of spare time on their hands.

More complex problems, for example unifying the salary review processes for a multi-national, or creating a time & labour management system, or an interface between a warehouse management system and a stock control/procurement application, can't be solved in a few months, let alone a few hours... and that's where good incomes are made. Hard yet boring stuff :-)

What I'd probably do is throw a straightforward SQL problem at you and watch how you solve it. I'd then continue escalating this problem (eg, adding effective dated security views) and wait until you look confused. The key to it is that failing to solve the problem wouldn't exclude you from a job with me, but how you go about finding the answer and what you do when you reach a logical stalemate (as most do when they first start dealing with effective dates). These are common situations you'll find yourself in during commercial work as you're often having to deal with other people's ideas, data structures and code - most of which are sub-optimal because few people have the time or even need to find perfection.

The next would be asking you what you understand of set processing. I'm actually more interested in someone's response if they don't know the answer than if they do.

Anyway, your test you suggest would need to be carried out in a controlled environment as there'd be too much scope for cheating on both sides.

Mortime Business Software

5th January 2009, 07:57

So clearly you don't wish to come into the office.

DaveIT. I am in Middlesbrough. Where is your office - Liverpool?

Are you prepared to pay all my expenses for travel, time lost in working, hotel, etc.?

Again. I don't think you could afford it.

Anyhow - perhaps we could arrange something online instead? Something which is reasonably controlled, and which allows you to show us your SQL skills. We're investigating data visualisation technologies and as things build up we'll be needing some real data experts who can pull out data from large corporate databases without slowing things to a crawl. With no signs of your experience in a real working environment we can't obviously take just your word for it, so we do have to test skills out.

DaveIT. Show me one place where I have asserted that I am strong on SQL.

In fact, I have stated quite the opposite. If you had not been so lazy, and taken the time to read the messages in this thread, then you would have spotted it.

But in reality, I suspect you saw an opportunity to get a few easy kicks in while I was taking on a group. A bit cowardly isn't it?

Secondly, show me one place where I expressed an interest in working for your company!

And anyhow, it is FireFleur who seems to be claiming to be superior to me, so why don't you ask him to implement a fast-access system for large databases in assembly language.

Dave

ozbon

5th January 2009, 09:49

I honestly don't want to sound conceited or anything and I mean no offence, but I doubt very much that you would be able to afford me.

Sheesh, no worries about ego on your side, are there?

Mortime Business Software

5th January 2009, 11:53

I mean yes, it's one approach to checking the ability of somebody to build something from concept through to completion, but unless it's an exceedingly simple problem (in which case you prove relatively little) then it's not going to be palatable to either contestant unless they have a lot of spare time on their hands.

Even some simple problems may require solutions which require a range of skills. Also, those solutions can be *developed*, which in turn needs very precise specification.

This latter point is very important because it can make the difference between taking hours/days to become aquainted with someone else's work, or possibly weeks of potential hard reading and unravelling of program code. Indeed, in many (most?) cases, it is quicker to start again!

The spare time required for this contest does not need to be allocated in one lump. I wouldn't want that because I have to work too (my studies are only part time).

The project(s) could be spread over weeks. If there are no *irrelevant* interjections, then it could be quite educational, and even lucrative, for both parties.

... then it's not going to be palatable to either contestant unless they have a lot of spare time on their hands.

What do you mean "either contestant"?

*I* am one of those contestants and I don't need you to tell me what is "palatable" to me! I have enough time to spare providing the time is spread over weeks.

More complex problems, for example unifying the salary review processes for a multi-national ... can't be solved in a few months, let alone a few hours... and that's where good incomes are made. Hard yet boring stuff :-)

As you suggest, it is not easy, but if you know your stuff, then you will be able to take an initial statement of requirements and negotiate with the stakeholder until you arrive at a negotiated statement of requirements. Things get done using tried and tested modelling techniques and, if one is lucky enough, good quality specifications and design documents from the previous engineers and modellers.

What I'd probably do is throw a straightforward SQL problem at you ...

I am not interested in becoming an SQL guru. I know enough to get my systems up and running. If and when I need more advanced programming or coding, or optimising thereof, then I will seek the services of specialists so that I can concentrate on what I am most interested in - modelling and engineering.

Now let me tell you what I would do. I would try to find out whether the interviewee has considered the problem space adequately. DaveIT, again, I would appreciate it if you would read the messages in a thread before posting to it.

It would save us all a lot of time.

The next would be asking you what you understand of set processing. I'm actually more interested in someone's response if they don't know the answer than if they do.

Some advice. You should first ask about *collection* processing rather than "set processing".

A 'set' is just one type of collection. Furthermore, you would do well to ask about what types of collection are most appropriate in a given situation.

After these questions, you can then be more specific and ask about sets.

Anyway, your test you suggest would need to be carried out in a controlled environment as there'd be too much scope for cheating on both sides.

I think a few thoughtful questions should be able to sort out any cheating. However, I don't mind. I am willing to undergo any sort of testing or monitoring you can think of in order to ascertain that any work I post is my own.

And I know I've said a few crappy things to FireFleur, but I do tend to trust people like him.

My suggestion for the *format* of this "challenge" (which incidentally, FireFleur issued) is a mere synopsis of something which obviously needs to be elaborated. I have tried to include a range of skills from modelling to coding. I think this is fair since I have never once stated that I am a coder or a query formation expert.

In fact, I am being more than fair because this thread is more about database design and implementation than it is about coding, vis-a`-vis the original post.

Dave

Mortime Business Software

5th January 2009, 11:54

Sheesh, no worries about ego on your side, are there?

Why do you think it is about ego?

Did you have anything to contribute, or is that it - you just felt like insulting me?

Dave

ozbon

5th January 2009, 12:53

Interconnect IT

5th January 2009, 14:37

Well, much as I hesitate to carry on feeding the trolls, a comment like "You couldn't afford me" when you've no idea what the company is like, what their budgets are etc., and based on the fact you're (from what others have said) at best a recent graduate on the CS front, I'd say that "You can't afford me" is a massive assumption on your part.

My contribution has already been made in this post - way back when it was still on page one - and I wasn't going to get involved again until your "you couldn't afford me" post.

So my final contribution would be some advice - if someone says "come to my office and we can talk about what you'd provide", my response would never be an off-the-cuff "You couldn't afford me". It's that kind of attitude that loses any respect you might've had from a potential client, and it's the kind of comment that has a nasty habit of following you for a *very* long time. I've seen others make similar comments (along with "Your business couldn't survive without me" - which always engenders the response "Wanna bet?") and have them come back to bite them on the arse more times than enough - any local business is likely to have a lot of contacts both on and offline, and a "You couldn't afford me" comment is going to be used as a joke in conversations with a lot of those contacts.

People remember bad press, and those who are made fun of.

So there you go, that's my contribution - not aimed personally, but as general advice.

Now go back under your bridge, and wait for the goats to cross.

I've decided to withdraw from this whole argument because I realised I too was just feeding the troll. He'll raise the stakes until suddenly going quiet.

But you know, if someone's brilliant then we'll give them a chance even if they're gits - it's possible to knock the corners off most people. I did enjoy DM's wriggling over the subject of SQL knowledge. He has no desire to be an SQL guru, yet frankly anyone who's working with any large databases should have a reasonable grounding in it. If they don't then all the theory in the world won't help them when the DB grinds to a halt under the load of a mere handful of queries.

What's worst is that his posturing didn't help the OP even if there was value in his statements.

So I shall be ignoring the abuse and teasing that my latest post will no doubt generate from him. Given that, I'm quite looking forward to seeing what he comes up with. Anyway, he should know better than to BS a BSer :D