customer refund situation-what is the law?

[luckyg]

An order got delivered to a customer on 3rd december. Part of the product is faux leather (furniture).

She got in touch today, 13 days later to say she has only opened the item today and the faux leather is ripped.

If it was up to week i woudl gladly accept it back, giving her benefit of doubt, but 13 days?

She wants a refund/exchange but the product is now out of stock even if i wanted to.

What does the law say on this/what would you do?

thanks in advance!

[lesliedocherty]

the law says she gets her money back, distance selling prevails i think

[luckyg]

the law says she gets her money back, distance selling prevails i think


but she could have ripped it herself while using it in last two weeks?

i suppose th ehonous of proof is on me isnt it?

[o2creativedesign]

Everybody has the statutory right to return a damaged item to the retailer for repair (not refund) within the first six months of purchase.

Upon return the retailer must repair the problem in a reasonable time and with no cost to the customer, as long as the damage is not caused by general use (wear-and-tear), misuse, or purposeful damage.

If she ordered online, through a mail order catalogue, or over the phone, the Distance Selling Regulations apply.

[luckyg]

Everybody has the statutory right to return a damaged item to the retailer for repair (not refund) within the first six months of purchase.

Upon return the retailer must repair the problem in a reasonable time and with no cost to the customer, as long as the damage is not caused by general use (wear-and-tear), misuse, or purposeful damage.

If she ordered online, through a mail order catalogue, or over the phone, the Distance Selling Regulations apply.

thanks, i know all that(not being sarcastic) but ripping of leather is a grey area. she could have doen it herself.

[serrano]

Was it signed for in good condition...?

If the product is OOS then the customer either waits should you decide to replace the defective item or is replaced with an alternative - should you wish to do that of course.

Depends on your refund policy and as said above..

[luckyg]

Was it signed for in good condition...?

If the product is OOS then the customer either waits should you decide to replace the defective item or is replaced with an alternative - should you wish to do that of course.

Depends on your refund policy and as said above..


The item was signed for with parcelforce.

what is OOS?

So your saying i have a choice wether to replace or repair or not?

Our policy will repair or replace faulty items up to 2 years, and we offer 30 day refunds on unwanted items. escluding the leather, which people can damage with themselves.

[SLF]

what do your own T & C say as that is what should prevail in the first instance, and of course they must also be in line with UK trading law and the dist selling regs as mentioned above.

[luckyg]

in line with UK trading law and the dist selling regs as mentioned above.


thats what i am asking here.

even though she signed for it, two weeks later she can say it arrived ripped?

if something broke then no problem, immediate refund, but there is a rip in the leather which she coudl have done herself!!

[SLF]

what does your websites T & C? Its against the law not to have them on your website so, what do they say, that she would have accepted (ticked a T & C Box) when she made the online purchase? What will your customer know to expect having accepted your T & C?

You need to answer this before anyone here can advise you further.

Also, online consurmers can get a refund within 7 days even for a change of mind, though wont be refunded post and may have to pay a restocking fee and pay to post items back, thus the refund may be less than what was paid.

For faulty items, you should have a returns policy in your T & C stating what happens and that customer has XX days to return them, how to let you know, and what to expect will happen (ie repair or replace). If your T & C says faulty goods must be reported within say for example, 7 days - and that falls in line with UK laws - then she has lost out. I cant remember what they are as I havent ever sold products online, so I forget all the details. I'm sure someone here who has an established online store should know the exact trading laws.

[.Spiralling.]

Also, online consurmers can get a refund within 7 days even for a change of mind, though wont be refunded post and may have to pay a restocking fee and pay to post items back, thus the refund may be less than what was paid.



wrong, wrong, wrong!

DSR state that customers are entitled to a full refund including postage if they notify you within 7 days of receiving the item (although certain goods are excluded). They also state that you may NOT charge a restocking fee, and unless you say otherwise in your T&Cs, you must also pay the cost of having the item returned to you.

[Poppy Design]

Hi

Best to go direct to the correct source - The Office of Fair Trading - www.oft.gov.uk/advice_and_resources/resource_base/legal/distance-selling-regulations/

There will always be people with different opinions but if you check the regulations with the issuing body they should keep you on the right side of the law.

[Burden]

Where can i find all the "UK Laws" for selling online? Just want to check before i launch my new site.


Sorry to jump into your thread :) !


Edit : Doh! Just noticed above post!!

[sysops]

the law says she gets her money back, distance selling prevails i think

Wrong, DSR applies up to 7 working days after the customer has received the order.

[cjd]

Oft guidance on DSR here:

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/general/oft698.pdf

[luckyg]

Also, online consurmers can get a refund within 7 days even for a change of mind, though wont be refunded post and may have to pay a restocking fee and pay to post items back, thus the refund may be less than what was paid.

.

i think you are wrong there. customers can get a full refund, incl postage. and cannot be charged restocking fee. thats what i offer, but this situation is a grey area because of time lapse b/w delivery and reportign of problem. item is not faulty, its is ripped.


and i did explain my terms for refund/replacement/repair above.

but i am not posting here to questions my t&c's, my terms say you need to report any delivery damage within 24 hours.

I am trying to get forum users knowledge because i need to find out what the law says. irrespecive of my t&c's because they are not the law although they shoudl follow the law!

[luckyg]

i think you are wrong there. customers can get a full refund, incl postage. and cannot be charged restocking fee. thats what i offer, but this situation is a grey area because of time lapse b/w delivery and reportign of problem. item is not faulty, its is ripped.


and i did explain my terms for refund/replacement/repair above.

but i am not posting here to questions my t&c's, my terms say you need to report any delivery damage within 24 hours.

I am trying to get forum users knowledge because i need to find out what the law says. irrespecive of my t&c's because they are not the law although they shoudl follow the law!


sorry! posted a bit later without seeing everyone elses replies to the statement

[Mattonella Tile Studio]

Assuming all your T&C are up to scratch then I think you need to make a judgement call, and I'd base it on three things

1) The cost to you of replacing
2) The value of the customer
3) The reasonableness of the customer not opening the packaging.

I've mail ordered something for Christmas. I haven't opened the box to check, it's a present. If on Christmas day something is found to be wrong I would expect it to sorted. On the other hand we ordered a bath a couple of years ago. As things go this didn't get plumbed in for about 18 months. Had a fault been found then I wouldn't have expected the company to do anything about it as it's not reasonable for me to keep it for such a length of time without checking it properly.

[o2creativedesign]

ripping of leather is a grey area. she could have doen it herself.

Unfortunately it is you who has to prove that she has caused any purposeful damage - she does not have to prove that she hasn't. So unless you have indisputable proof of purposeful damage (or that the rip is in relation to wear and tear) then she is entitled to free repair of the item.

Regardless of the Distance Selling Regulations she has the statutory right to have the item repaired by the retailer at no additional cost, so I wouldn't focus too much on the intricacies of the DSR when this statutory right still applies and means you must repair the item free of charge.

[adam]

Whatever the reasons or explanation for the damage, you are right to question but I don't think 24 hours is fair as someone could be away for a couple of days or busy at work etc so perhaps allow a bit longer than the 7 days under law. However I think you said 14 days and that is a judgement you need to make if it is too long.

I think something like a rip would not stand up in court if the customer argued they had not seen it but a leg giving way after even 6 months could well be down to you as the customer could not see the leg was faulty.

From what I have read, I am with you that 14 days is quite long but think of the value of good service needs to be considered.

[SLF]

wrong, wrong, wrong!

DSR state that customers are entitled to a full refund including postage if they notify you within 7 days of receiving the item (although certain goods are excluded). They also state that you may NOT charge a restocking fee, and unless you say otherwise in your T&Cs, you must also pay the cost of having the item returned to you.

If you re-read my post, this para was in reference to 'change of mind' and mynext para was about faulty goods. I was just explainin a difference in reasons of return to the OP.

I also think you are getting DSR confused with trading laws in general. Ther are laws that apply to both.

[Simon-M]

Surely this is a cost of doing business the way you do. Arguing the toss will only come back to bite you on the butt. Doing the right thing will pay you back in spade loads. Goodwill from your customer (free advertising of your excellent service) plus a big fat bucket load of good Karma.

You know it makes sense :)

[SLF]

Good point Simon - in fact you could use this customer as an example on your website about how great your returns service is. You cant buy advertising like that.

"Mrs G from Derbyshire opened her parcel to find a faulty product. Withing X days and no hassle, we fully replaced her item".

Now that would make me feel way more compfortable as a potential buyer.

[sysops]

Surely this is a cost of doing business the way you do. Arguing the toss will only come back to bite you on the butt. Doing the right thing will pay you back in spade loads. Goodwill from your customer (free advertising of your excellent service) plus a big fat bucket load of good Karma.

This is actually a myth, and completely unfounded (sorry!). It is based on the assumption that people behave rationally and reasonably. On the whole, averaged over large numbers, they do not.

For example, you send out a product, well packaged. It arrives broken because it was subjected to extreme handling on the way. The customer can see it was well packaged, and should be able to deduce that this is clearly not the fault of the sender. The customer contacts you. You apologise, and send a replacement.

Traditional thinking would have you believe that in most cases, the customer will go away happy, thinking "wow, what great service. There was a little problem which wasn't their fault, but they resolved it quickly and efficiently".

However, this is not the case. A small % of customers will indeed react in this way. The majority, however, will fall somewhere between indifference and frustration that it happened in the first place. Most will still feel put out that they had to go to the trouble of contacting you in the first place.

By all means, do the right thing (as you see it), and meet your legal and contractual obligations, but don't for a minute think that your excellent service will be rewarded in spades. Doesn't work that way.

[sysops]

Good point Simon - in fact you could use this customer as an example on your website about how great your returns service is. You cant buy advertising like that.

"Mrs G from Derbyshire opened her parcel to find a faulty product. Withing X days and no hassle, we fully replaced her item".

Now that would make me feel way more compfortable as a potential buyer.

It may make you feel more comfortable, but most people reading that will go away with the impression that your goods are of poor quality and that they will most likely need to return whatever they buy.

This is why you will never find this type of statement on a busy retail site.

[SLF]

I suppose so yes, but we all know one can never guarantee 100% perfection. I notice ebuyer offer a pre-delivery inspection on laptops to make sure they work and not broke, because they say X% of goods ewill inevitably be faulty. So they are big and they do admit this is the reality of goods which we all know. What would be important to me is making sure that the company will replace an item. But as mentioned above, the range of customer expectation does differ and I imagine it mkust be hard to please them all! I wouldnt want to run an online shop thats for sure!

[cjd]

I think I disagree a little here.

If you notified your customer of their right to cancel the contract and return the goods they have 7 days after receipt to do it. After that they lose that right - unless the goods become faulty.

I think it is reasonable to require a customer to check for goods damaged in transit or arriving damaged within that seven days - otherwise they have an unlimited period to claim. (Goods that become faulty within their warranty period is different.)

If you did not inform them of their cancellation rights, their right to cacel is 7 days after you do - so you're stuffed if they know their DSRs

Most people do not know DSR - including retailers - so reagardless of what the law says you could still argue the case and probably get away with it - particularly if they are taking the mickey.

If you sold to business, the DSRs do not apply.

[Simon-M]

This is actually a myth, and completely unfounded (sorry!). It is based on the assumption that people behave rationally and reasonably. On the whole, averaged over large numbers, they do not.

For example, you send out a product, well packaged. It arrives broken because it was subjected to extreme handling on the way. The customer can see it was well packaged, and should be able to deduce that this is clearly not the fault of the sender. The customer contacts you. You apologise, and send a replacement.

Traditional thinking would have you believe that in most cases, the customer will go away happy, thinking "wow, what great service. There was a little problem which wasn't their fault, but they resolved it quickly and efficiently".

However, this is not the case. A small % of customers will indeed react in this way. The majority, however, will fall somewhere between indifference and frustration that it happened in the first place. Most will still feel put out that they had to go to the trouble of contacting you in the first place.

By all means, do the right thing (as you see it), and meet your legal and contractual obligations, but don't for a minute think that your excellent service will be rewarded in spades. Doesn't work that way.

Fact or myth? I have no proof that doing the right thing gives positive or negative feedback. As it is a myth I presume you clearly have proof of this? At the end of the day you have to run your business based on what makes you comfortable. For me, I would just do the right thing. End of.

Simon

[sysops]

I suppose so yes, but we all know one can never guarantee 100% perfection. I notice ebuyer offer a pre-delivery inspection on laptops to make sure they work and not broke, because they say X% of goods ewill inevitably be faulty. So they are big and they do admit this is the reality of goods which we all know. What would be important to me is making sure that the company will replace an item. But as mentioned above, the range of customer expectation does differ and I imagine it mkust be hard to please them all! I wouldnt want to run an online shop thats for sure!

Trust me, you are a reasonable customer, and fall into our favourite ~20%.

You would be shocked at how some customers behave.

[sysops]

Fact or myth? I have no proof that doing the right thing gives positive or negative feedback. As it is a myth I presume you clearly have proof of this? At the end of the day you have to run your business based on what makes you comfortable. For me, I would just do the right thing. End of.


First, note that I'm not arguing against doing the right thing. What I'm disputing is the assumption that Karma prevails in such cases.

This is based on my experience of closely analysing hundreds of customer support situations, from start to end, in order to refine our operating procedures.

[Simon-M]

First, note that I'm not arguing against doing the right thing. What I'm disputing is the assumption that Karma prevails in such cases.

This is based on my experience of closely analysing hundreds of customer support situations, from start to end, in order to refine our operating procedures.

Karma is a myth. You are right on that one :)