Dodgy customers - how feasible would this be?

[deniser]

I have often wondered how feasible it would be to have some kind of list (not public but available to subscribers & participants only) of:

1. Customer names and addresses which have been linked to fraud. I have several addresses for example that I have proved have attempted credit card fraud. And others where I am suspicious or the Green Man has told me are very suspicious for various reasons such as addresses where lots of different cards in different names are registered.

2. Timewasters - ie. those that order lots of goods and return the whole lot for no reason. I have a blacklist of those also.

3. Customers who deliberately damage goods so as to get a refund after they have worn the garment once to the occasion they wanted it for, then damage it to get a refund.

It would just be helpful to have a shared list that one could refer to in the event of any suspicion. We all have our own lists but it would be good to share some of this information.

I had in mind that each user would pay a small annual subscription just to cover the website set up cost and hosting which could be minimal if enough people signed up - not a profit making venture - but just of use to those who subscribe to it and contribute to it.

What do others think about this? Is it feasible? Is it legal?

[joshc]

Mmmmm, sounds a great idea but obviously a tricky one legally.

I do recall a few years ago that a trade association of manufacturers used to circulate a monhtly list to its members of retauilers who didn't pay. Members would add to the lost each month and it proved very useful, plus I know it was cleared by their solicitors, but maybe they got away with it because it was only passed around members.

As we sell marketing lists containing people's details we have very stringent checks on any online purchases and have added our own manual approval process on every transaction. As part of this process I know that we have often googled suspect customers email addresses and found them on some private websites and blogs listing dodgy buyers.

I wonder if anyone set up a members only website where ecommerce stores can share details of suspect customers? If not, it sounds like a good business idea to me!!

[NuBlue]

Nice idea and it would be quite useful, but I think maybe impossible to implement.

The names and addresses on a fraud order are usually the poor sole that has had their card compromised, not the individual making the fraudulent order. Resulting in a list of innocents being essentially added to a black list.

Not sure if it would be possible to validate each suspected fraud, and if the list was not accurate I think it would quickly lose credibility

[MartCactus]

I agree with the other comments here.

Its a great idea but
1) whoever was running the site would face accusations of defamation
2) making reports to it might involve retailers in alleged breaches of data protection law
3) some retailers might make malicious or mistaken submissions to it (one only has to look at ebay to see that sometimes 2 seemingly genuine and honest people with dozens of previous good transactions behind them can have a big disagreement about one between them).

So unfortunately I don't think such a system would ever be setup and if it were it most probably could not survive.

[quikshop]

So unfortunately I don't think such a system would ever be setup and if it were it most probably could not survive.

I agree, there was a similar type of scheme set up years ago which was free to use and query against customer details but for reasons already mentioned, the legal issues surrounding what is essentially an unsubstantiated database of private data is difficult to defend and easily abused.

Dodgy customers for online retailers are a fact of life, thankfully they tend to be a tiny minority.

[OldWelshGuy]

in 1999 I intended to set up a site called bouncedcheque.com . The aim was to alert people to companies/people who had bounced cheques to a business, or stopped a cheque etc.

My neighbour is a top civil litigation dude, he spends lots of time in the house of Lords. his word were along the lines of , if you want to end up living in a cardboard box because someone has sued your arse off and won, it is a great idea :D

He eplained the potential for legal action for damages as a result ofd the information held. He also said about hings like banks get it wrong sometimes etc.

[glencooley.com]

That idea doesnt give the customer the right to respond. Just because one company and customer didnt have a great relationship for whatever reason doesnt mean they will do the same to anyother business.

[leemason]

Any system like this would have to:

1. Register with the data protection registrar for all data held.
2. Allow anyone to see any information store about them on payment of a nominal charge.
3. Allow anyone to challenge the data help on them (just as they can with a credit reference agency)
4. Vet anyone who is registering information.
5. Get a very good solicitor!

[deniser]

Thanks all of you for your responses. I know deep down it is a non starter but, sitting looking at 2 suspicious orders this morning, I thought it would be nice if there was somewhere to go for a second opinion.....

[Jimmi]

I was refunded by Paypal for something that arrived damaged in the post. The seller insisted that I damaged it myself which was not true. Whether he was blagging or not I don't know but I guess he would recomend me to go on your list.

[NuBlue]

Thanks all of you for your responses. I know deep down it is a non starter but, sitting looking at 2 suspicious orders this morning, I thought it would be nice if there was somewhere to go for a second opinion.....

Agreed, it would be great if it is existed, but I can't see it being available anytime soon.

Like quikshop says, fraud is a fact of life for online retailers in the same way that shoplifters are a fact of life for offline retailers. I think what is needed is for the banks/police to start taking this sort of crime more seriously and to make a few examples of the culprits. Whwnever we have tried to pursue a fraudulent order (sometimes for quite a high value) there really is nowhere to turn which is a shame as it sends out totally the wrong message to the people who participate in this practice.

[deniser]

I was refunded by Paypal for something that arrived damaged in the post. The seller insisted that I damaged it myself which was not true. Whether he was blagging or not I don't know but I guess he would recomend me to go on your list.

Which we wouldn't take too much notice of unless your name kept appearing.

[Shaun_Pearce]

I think i have some sort of solution.

How this links with what you are suggesting I'm not sure.

The system I provide has a range of services available to companies where you can check a few things on individuals & companies

ID Verification (15 different methods of checking for fraudulant activity)
Consumer Report (CCJ data including other cources that could answer your query)
Business Report (Loads of information that can be viewed on any business)

Each fo these reports give data that can be associated with fraudulant activity but I'm not 100% on the content in regards to people damaging goods and returning it etc. In my view the only way this can be possibly seen is via a CCJ.

Would anyone care to investigate my system and see if they can see what they are looking for as I am not 100% as to what you are searching for.

In affect this would benefit my approach to different businesses providing you see what you are seeking in my service.

PM me a telephone number and a name to contact if you feel like viewing it.

Thanks in advance guys.

[Jimmi]

Agreed, it would be great if it is existed, but I can't see it being available anytime soon.

Like quikshop says, fraud is a fact of life for online retailers in the same way that shoplifters are a fact of life for offline retailers. I think what is needed is for the banks/police to start taking this sort of crime more seriously and to make a few examples of the culprits. Whwnever we have tried to pursue a fraudulent order (sometimes for quite a high value) there really is nowhere to turn which is a shame as it sends out totally the wrong message to the people who participate in this practice.

If it's a high value online order are you running any checks before you fulfill it?

[deniser]

I have in the past got as far as getting the police to search the premises - but not finding the stolen goods - but they then stopped short of getting a court order to seize the computer which would have been the next step.

So the fraudsters are free to carry on using the address to receive stolen goods just so long as they remove them quickly from the premises. And we are taking about an address with occupants with convictions for fraud going back 8 years or so.

[Dymo King]

3. Customers who deliberately damage goods so as to get a refund after they have worn the garment once to the occasion they wanted it for, then damage it to get a refund.Couldn't these people get a refund anyway, without damaging the goods, simply by notifying you within 7 days that the goods aren't wanted, as per the distance selling regulations...? (while the goods may obviously look 'worn' they could just claim they just 'tried it on' and it didn't fit or whatever).

And couldn't you get around this problem by making it clear on your site that faulty items will be replaced rather than refunded? It would certainly seem reasonable - after all any genuine customer who received an item they wanted, but that had a fault, wouldn't object to it being replaced. If you made this clear enough before purchase then that could discourage this type of abuse. (Not sure if the DSR would allow that though, so you'd have to check).

[deniser]

Couldn't these people get a refund anyway, without damaging the goods, simply by notifying you within 7 days that the goods aren't wanted, as per the distance selling regulations...? (while the goods may obviously look 'worn' they could just claim they just 'tried it on' and it didn't fit or whatever).

And couldn't you get around this problem by making it clear on your site that faulty items will be replaced rather than refunded? It would certainly seem reasonable - after all any genuine customer who received an item they wanted, but that had a fault, wouldn't object to it being replaced. If you made this clear enough before purchase then that could discourage this type of abuse. (Not sure if the DSR would allow that though, so you'd have to check).

No these professional swindlers haven't caught on to the DSR yet(thankfully). It's the Sale of Goods Act that applies to faulty garments in addition to the DSR. The SGA assumes that if there is a fault within the first 6 months then it must have been there when purchased unless the retailer can prove otherwise. It's difficult for me to argue that they should have a replacement when it is occasionwear and they say the faulty garment (bought just for that event) has ruined the event.

If you saw the state that some of these garments came back in you would be shocked!!

[Dymo King]

It's difficult for me to argue that they should have a replacement when it is occasionwear and they say the faulty garment (bought just for that event) has ruined the event.Possibly, but then you are not a hire service and the assumption has to be that they would have retained the item had there not been a fault, and therefore it is reasonable to issue a replacement. But you don't have to argue this point with them - my point was that if you make it clear in advance then it may discourage some of these fraudsters.

And if they say thay the fault 'ruined the event' then it would have to be a pretty major fault! So another alternative would be to manually inspect the items before shipping, and put a label or tag in with the item saying 'quality checked by: [initials/date]', and you could even make a feature of it on your site - "All items are carefully hand checked before dispatch to make sure they are fault free". This would not only discoruage the scammers but would have the added benefit of making you look good to your genuine customers, as you are clearly adding extra value by making sure that everything is perfect for their special day or whatever. Not sure how practical this would be (depends on the volume you sell I guess) but worth a shot?

If you saw the state that some of these garments came back in you would be shocked!! Maybe, maybe not. I think once you've been in business for a while you find out that there are a minority of customers who are just dishonest. It reminds me of a friend who used to work at John Lewis in the china and glass section. She said that on more than one occasion people had come in and purchased really expensive china dinner service sets, and then a few days later come back and returned them as they'd 'changed their mind'. But the bits of dried food made it kind of obvious that they'd just bought them for a one-off dinner party and had no intention of actually keeping them... :rolleyes:

[deniser]

And if they say thay the fault 'ruined the event' then it would have to be a pretty major fault! So another alternative would be to manually inspect the items before shipping, and put a label or tag in with the item saying 'quality checked by: [initials/date]', and you could even make a feature of it on your site - "All items are carefully hand checked before dispatch to make sure they are fault free". This would not only discoruage the scammers but would have the added benefit of making you look good to your genuine customers, as you are clearly adding extra value by making sure that everything is perfect for their special day or whatever. Not sure how practical this would be (depends on the volume you sell I guess) but worth a shot?



That's a good idea for some of the more fragile garments - thanks.

I have already started to label some of the children's garments as "This garment must be treated with a reasonable amount of care and is not suitable for crawling in or rough play".

I'm not sure this would put off those who are determined to sabotage them anyway but everything is worth a try I guess.

[Dymo King]

That's a good idea for some of the more fragile garments - thanks.I was thinking more of the expensive garments! :D

But for the full detterent effect you'd really have to make a feature of it, which would mean checking all garments which may be impractical - would certainly be a good USP though.

[ceebdub]

you sort of get a feeling who are dodgy customers, the most frustrating thing is that the banks are not interested when you tell them the identity addresses of fraudulent customers using nicked credit cards.

[Shaun_Pearce]

I provide an online ID Verification & Tracing utility that may be able to help. Also with my information you can instantly obtain information on businesses which could help?

Just let me know if you fancy a peak!

[Comspec]

To the original OP, you have no chance of starting something like that as it would fail on too many legal counts.

It is rediculous that there is not some sort of list available somewhere, but the legal implications of it are just too much for most people.

Also the DP laws are very tight, so the information would have to be made available on anyone if they asked for it - leaving you open to many potential court cases.

The only way to combat fraud is to have tight controls in place in-house, and ensure that they are well advertised on your site, that way you move the potential scammer onto some other business with less controls. Sad, but the way of the world.

[Dymo King]

There is earlywarning, but this is more oriented towards card fraud than scammers and micky takers.