What are your latest Actinic views? [Archive]

mrflumps

17th June 2008, 20:08

As there are so many threads floating around for websites I was wondering what the latest opinions of Actinic was

Ive seen some of the customer sites from the Actinic site and look very good, but heard it can be unfriendly to use

Im debating to give it a try or zencart/creloaded as mentioned on my other friends but the stale look just bugs me. Even with getting a template designed, if i want something changed it could cost more money

Cheers to any Actinic users or exusers who could shed some light

Rob

Chris Ashdown

17th June 2008, 21:26

As with all software you will find those for and against the various companies

Myself I have used Actinic for a number of years and find it a good system, easy to use, lots of users and developers and updates every 18 months or so to new versions.

Lattest release has had its problems for some sites mainly multi-user sites but promised this will be resolved in next couple of weeks

Many people on this forum suggest free software for your shop, but myself I know i want a company with a good reputation working on my behalf improving the software and easy to use programs that are also easy to modify if you require it, costs of a few hundred to purchase with lots of upgrade options should not put seriouse people off, just the people who want to spend nothing and at the same time challenge the top brands for their customers

Last but not least a fantastic forum and support team. Download the 30 day trial from www.actinic.co.uk and try it yourself, if you like it then you can use the data from it into your new site

Check out actinic sites by google "acatalog" which should show up a good selection of actinic sites

mke

17th June 2008, 23:33

Zen Cart, osCommerce and the other Open Source solutions may not be "companies" in the sense mooted by Chris Ashdown, but as far as the user interface and keeping up to date goes, they have a very good lead over Actinic. They have strong, up to date, competent, development teams and no concerns about investor dividends.

Other advantages include being able to move on to other companies for support if your current developer drops out, constant development, modular rather than monolithic design (makes it easier to change things without breaking the whole application), source code access (you can go on and change it if your business grows, without an "owner" saying you can't) and a whole lot more advantages.

Put simply, you can sign up for something without signing your life away.

quikshop

17th June 2008, 23:49

Put simply, you can sign up for something without signing your life away.

That makes no sense whatsoever!

I agree with Chris, Actinic (the desktop version) is a great piece of software and has a fantastic community support forum.

It does have its problems, its not easy to customise without some techy knowledge and the hosting has to be Actinic-specific but having said that it is a robust eCommerce solution.

If you have made up your mind to use an off-the-shelf desktop package then I'd go so far as to say its the best desktop eCommerce software available for small to medium sized businesses.

mke

17th June 2008, 23:54

It does have its problems, its not easy to customise without some techy knowledge and the hosting has to be Actinic-specific These hardly look like advantages to me. Open Source solutions suffer from none of those handicaps, and Zen Cart suffers even less than most of the OS solutions.

So thanks for the expertise, quikshop. :D

Oh, forgot to mention, for thsoe who don't know, Open Source applications have vibrant forums for help, moans, honesty and much more. You can even put your spoke into the development side if you so wish.

quikshop

18th June 2008, 07:43

So thanks for the expertise, quikshop. :D

Well, my comments are based on having used both Actinic and osCommerce for retail businesses in the past. Both solutions have their issues, perhaps your lack of expertise is showing through with your one-sided view of open source :p

Rob's concern in his original post was the 'stale' look of the default open source settings and its a fair point that you do need some working knowledge of the software (or a friend who does) to make it genuinely unique and professional looking.

Its not quite as simple as downloading a template for $25, just as its not the best idea to use Actinic's default shop creation settings.

In our experience Actinic compared to osCommerce is easier for a non-IT literate person to learn and use, that's based on my partner's experiences of using both systems.

Open source is better for accessibility (access from anywhere with an Internet connection), price and the volume of community mods. The latter does not guarantee quality and the 'end product' of using open source is no better than what can be achieved with Actinic.

Rob, perhaps a good starting point would be to list what you must have from your eCommerce solution and then see which options fit your needs best?

Whistle Ink

18th June 2008, 07:45

I have used actinic previously and it was great. Customising the templates was a doddle in dreamweaver - the only thing was I was bad at design!

I like the way you can create the products and see categories and products in a expanding tree type thing on the same page - which made adding products to multiple categories easier than say on another ecommerce app - selecting categories from a drop down list.

I found it to be very stable and reliable.

It is desktop based and so when you updated something on the template it would upload everything again. I think there is a online database / dynamic version.

Chris Ashdown

18th June 2008, 13:33

Other advantages include being able to move on to other companies for support if your current developer drops out, constant development, modular rather than monolithic design (makes it easier to change things without breaking the whole application), source code access (you can go on and change it if your business grows, without an "owner" saying you can't) and a whole lot more advantages.

Put simply, you can sign up for something without signing your life away.

Q)Other advantages include being able to move on to other companies for support if your current developer drops out

A)Hundreds of Actinic developers out there, but most people do not need them they do it themselves its so simple

Q)modular rather than monolithic design (makes it easier to change things without breaking the whole application),

A)Ability to edit every page in HTML and also use Dreamweave to design, plus menu to return to default setting if required equals or negates these points

Q)source code access (you can go on and change it if your business grows

A)Why do you need to go this deep, with actinic they have upgrades that enable you to grow without any input in steps up to Multi Site Multi User

There is also the famouse saying "KISS" Keep It Simple Stupid

My problem with open source is where and who do you go to, when your site screws up bigtime which it probably will sometime

With Actinic it simple, one company knows everthing about the software

Not perfect but very usable for beginners or experts

Is open source really sold because as the developers dont have to pay royalty they can make bigger profits

mke

18th June 2008, 13:44

My problem with open source is where and who do you go to, when your site screws up bigtime which it probably will sometime Chris, one of the greatest strengths of OS, which does, in fact, beat the hell out of any alternative I know of, is that thre are literally hundreds if not thousands of directly involved, easy to find developers with each and every of the major Open Source projects. Most of those projects are far too well built to "screw up big time". Even if they did, there are skilled people ready and waiting to help, whether on a consultancy and practical basis for fees or free via the forums and other support networks.

As for your royalties statement, it's is utterly laughable. Bury your prejudices and give OS a try, Chris. Not only will you be very pleasantly surprised, if at the end of the day you decide you don't like it, you will be able to comment from a position of knowledge. Having tried the proprietary options for a number of years, then running the two systems side by side for quite a while, I am more than strong enough to hold my own in this type of debate from a position of knowledge, rather than having swallowed the hype whole.

You have made the error you are accusing OS of - "there is one company which" - when there simply is no such restriction on "the right side" of the argument. ;)

quikshop

18th June 2008, 14:57

Having tried the proprietary options for a number of years, then running the two systems side by side for quite a while, I am more than strong enough to hold my own in this type of debate from a position of knowledge, rather than having swallowed the hype whole.

Have you ever run a retail business mke, and if so what else apart from open source solutions have you used in a commercial environment?

Have you ever had to train your retail or call centre staff to use your eCommerce software?

Or are you approaching this from a purely development / consultancy view point?

mke

18th June 2008, 15:08

I've used a couple for my own enterprises in the past, including Actinic, so some direct experience there. That,however, is from the one man band small shop. My own current clients tell me Zen Cart, for instance, is easier to understand in terms of its administrative interface, reflecting my own experience. I'd have thought the commercial ones would have advanced a lot more in the interim.

I have done training in the past, although not in the specific context you outline. I would very strongly suspect it would be as easy if not easier to design and deliver training courses and programmes for several of the OS products we support (not just shopping carts) than for their proprietary counterparts.

If there is enough genuine interest around here, and without wishing to hijack the thread so PM rather than adding to this, I have enough contacts and knowledge to add a new string to Stop Watch Web's bow.

quikshop

18th June 2008, 15:20

I don't think its a problem opening the discussion out or linking to other sources.

I've posted on a different thread along the lines of the software we choose is only one part of eCommerce, and retail businesses generally find the software a distraction from their core activities of product, service, sales and marketing.

There is no one option fits all solutions, otherwise the large high street names would all be using open source products. They cater for those who put cost, control and community above managed solutions and more inclusive service packages such as our own.

And like you, having used Actinic we benefited greatly from their excellent community forum and direct (albeit paid for) support, it was absolutely the right solution for us with our first retail business.

As a beginner to online retail or someone without any technical knowledge, even if you do choose an open source product you still need the support of a package of services provided by a solution provider.

sussexrob

18th June 2008, 15:21

Blimey guys

I didnt intend to get this thread so heated :)

Its obviously a case of everyone has their own preference

I am no nearer deciding due to the each person having such strong views of each one. The only thing I remember is 2 years ago using zencart briefly and getting sql/php error after doing something so simple and it giving me a error and me thinking....wtf.. and feeling very helpless

All in all, thankyou for your replies but i will have to say...time out and everyone destress before the handbags come out

On a tech side, thanyou very much for all the valid points which are good to hear from both sides

Rob

quikshop

18th June 2008, 15:24

Blimey guys

I didnt intend to get this thread so heated :)

Don't worry Rob, its always like this :D

Like I mentioned briefly above, I dont think that the software should be the main consideration of retail, its just one piece of the puzzle and the right solution is whatever empowers you to carry out the core retail activities in the best way with the minimum of fuss.

You can get a great looking functional shop with any of the solutions discussed, good luck with whatever you choose :)

mke

18th June 2008, 15:34

I'd hardly call it heated, Rob. In fact, Dave and I are in a lot closer agreement than you may think. There is not one solution. There are many. Whichever way you go, for somebody new they will need support and if they can afford that at a professional level, whether OS developer or proprietary provider style, the store owner will benefit so much more.

For instance, the DB query errors you had with php, I see often and they are very simple to sort out and to show the store owner how to avoid them in the future. The solution can take a lot of finding if you are in such a complex application on your own. And every ecommerce application is a complex application.

My last point, whilst not every high street retailer uses an OS solution for their online presence, there are most certainly those that do. OS is very scaleable. But there are also those that use their own, "home rolled" and yet others using proprietary. Whcih underlines Dave's statement that there is not one way. Thank heavens for that, then. :)

Chris Ashdown

18th June 2008, 16:06

Chris, one of the greatest strengths of OS, which does, in fact, beat the hell out of any alternative I know of, is that thre are literally hundreds if not thousands of directly involved, easy to find developers with each and every of the major Open Source projects. Most of those projects are far too well built to "screw up big time". Even if they did, there are skilled people ready and waiting to help, whether on a consultancy and practical basis for fees or free via the forums and other support networks.

)

If I was to buy a site designed by you for my shop, and six months down the road we had a large problem with our systems for any reason and you were not available, we would be lost and looking for outside help whilst getting no income

With a commercial software package from a reputable company I can go straight to the developer and if he is not available then straight to the company who makes the software and as they are relativly small and UK based get normally fast and good support

Why should I risk all income for a cheap solution

I have tried open source and found no reason to use it apart from cost and a couple of hours downtime saved soon pays for any initial savings on the purchase

mke

18th June 2008, 17:19

Chris, you are once again talking as though you knew something of the topic. It is worse than that, though.Intended or not,you are implying that companies involved in OS are somehow unreliable or untrustworthy, whilst similarly implying that any dickhead setting up to flog proprietary must be completely legitimate and reliable. It is utter, complete, total balderdash.

And who said anything about cheap? Modular rather then monolithic, yes. Reliable, yes. Scaleable, yes. A host of other good things, yes. Dealt in by trustworthy companies and, as in any other walk of life, a few ******* as well, yes. But we don't do cheap whether or not others do.

And I can name well over twenty decent companies in this area alone who could take over and support several of our OS solutions, doing it competently and well from day one.

So you tried it DIY. And how much better would you fare going the cheap route with proprietary? You couldn't even try it out. It's closed to you.

The argument is about value, not cost.

Steve2507

18th June 2008, 19:47

Okay it seems to me the op has 2 choices.

1 - Go with a solution that generates html pages such as Actinic.
2 - Go with a solution that uses a database which generates the pages on the fly.

As Dave (quikshop) said any of the above solutions will give a great looking site with the right designer.

I don't think an open source free solution is the way to go at all. The op seems to doubt their skills and they need a solution with good support. So paying for a package of some form has got to be the way to go.

The arguement of whether a designer will be in business x number of years/months down the line doesn't really exist as long as you have the code for your site. Hosting is much more important. If a designer stops trading and you need your site fixing or changing, whether it uses a database system like oscommerce, vpasp or a package such as Actinic then getting someone to fix the problem or update the design would be easy. Just search for Actinic designers or OSCommerce designers in G and you will see what I mean.

Likewise the fact that a software developer is UK based is immaterial as well. Our software is developed in Austrailia and they have support teams in Austrailia and USA, so support is excellent. There are also numerous developers around the world who I could contact if needed. In the modern world distance is immaterial, so picking software simply because it is from the UK is nonsensical.

It then remains what type of package you want to use and this really depends on how easily you want to be able to update it. I have used Actinic and loads of similar packages and they can be difficult to update, especially if you are going to have a product in a number of categories. However with a database backend updating can be very easy.

My recommendation would be to go for a package which uses a database backend and for which you have to pay for. This will give you decent support (not just a good community) where you can give your access details to an expert and they will solve the issue. Yes you may need to pay for it, but at least you know it will be fixed properly. We use VPASP (www.vpasp.com (http://www.vpasp.com)) which I am more than happy with, but there are loads of alternatives.

mke

18th June 2008, 20:19

Steve2507

18th June 2008, 21:02

Steve2507, you have made the same mistake. You are calling Open Source free - the hosting and support is not free if quality of support and holding your hand, especially through the early learning days but also as and when you may hit problems later, is important to you. The difference is you have the opportunity of free if you wish to take the climb up the learning curve of installation and configuration, rather than paying then just loading the cart.

Nor is any specific adapting or module building for a specific purpose where one is not already available free. But the difference between OS and many, not all it is only fair to say, proprietary offerings is that you are actually allowed to and have the source code available to develop your module from.

You have mooted osCommerce. It is Open Source. Yes, Steve, really it is. So is Zen cart, to my mind a better database driven solution and one which we offer professional hosting and support for. We support osCommerce and a few others too, but we actively recommend Zen Cart.
I didn't put down open source. What I understand to be open source is software where you have full access to all the code. The package we use is open source as we have full access to the code.

However it has been developed by a professional team in Austrailia and so even though we have access to the code we also have access to the team behind it.

I have said that the op needs to use software that is not free. OScommerce can be free and the op shold not go for it. I know zencart and others are based on OScommerce and as long as there is god support behind it the op should consider it. It is the support (not comminity support) for the software that is important in my opinion, not whether the designer will be there in a few months.

Chris Ashdown

18th June 2008, 21:13

And I can name well over twenty decent companies in this area alone who could take over and support several of our OS solutions, doing it competently and well from day one.

So you tried it DIY. And how much better would you fare going the cheap route with proprietary? You couldn't even try it out. It's closed to you.

The argument is about value, not cost.

I think you know that is not what i meant, just that its better if your site is down for any reason the propretry way is probably the quickest method of getting help after the designer, no slur was intended on designers just that many small companies may not be available 24/7 to help due to things like holidays sickness etc, sorry if I gave the wrong impression. And a british company gives you the benifit of UK Hours of business

The twenty + companies who could take over may not have any real interest in sorting out other peoples problems while a propriatery has a major intrest

As for trying it out all software these days gives a trial period they have to to sell their products

At the end of the day your shop is your future, so look at all routes in your selection, it can be a big problem and also expensive to change systems later

mke

18th June 2008, 21:46

Indeed. Thanks for the clarification. Your earlier post wasn't quite as clear, if I may say so. ;)

The only minor disagreement remains whether a company taking over would be interested. Damned right they would. There are zillions of the intellectually challenged thinking "the community" will do all they need if anything goes wrong so sell "supported" solutions which they can't support. Come renewal, the customer moves on and by then has found out about a few hosts who will give genuine support at a reasonable price. Not free, not necessarily cheap by some people's standards, but affordable and reasonable. We get a lot of business that way.

Also, that is not an affliction of the OS way of doing things. It is endemic in both web based and non-web IT, all genres. Sadly it is like estate agency in that it is easy to con the public that you know what you are doing simply by throwing a bit of jargon around.

Chris Ashdown

19th June 2008, 10:13

The only minor disagreement remains whether a company taking over would be interested. Damned right they would. There are zillions of the intellectually challenged thinking "the community" will do all they need if anything goes wrong so sell "supported" solutions which they can't support. Come renewal, the customer moves on and by then has found out about a few hosts who will give genuine support at a reasonable price. Not free, not necessarily cheap by some people's standards, but affordable and reasonable. We get a lot of business that way.

.

I think the above confirms the reason I am not a OS User

MartCactus

19th June 2008, 10:45

With a commercial software package from a reputable company I can go straight to the developer and if he is not available then straight to the company who makes the software and as they are relativly small and UK based get normally fast and good support

The downside of course is that the company might
- go bust
- decide to stop supporting the product
- raise their rates for continued support

And I say this whilst working for a company that produces a paid-for solution, but which is open source (ie full source code).

In the end there are pros and cons to each solution - if this weren't the case we'd only have one shopping cart solution in the market now. There is a wide variety of carts because there are a wide variety of requirements.

Shopping carts are like cars... everyone has different needs and budgets, and technical knowledge. Some want a cheap malaysian import, some want a Jag, or perhaps even an Aston Martin, and others have such a special requirement that they have something modified (or "pimped" as I believe car folk say). Others have very technical and can handle something that requires them to know what they are doing.

So Actinic may or may not be a good solution to you - that will depend on your budget, your business requirements, your technical knowledge, etc.