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ppratt982
4th June 2008, 01:36
Hi,


Firstly sorry about the length of this :-) and secondly thank you in advance for any advice.


My company imports marble and granite, I have been dealing with a company for around 18 months. In January 2008 this company secured substantial investment from a quite famous and well respected retired sports person and head of industry.

My company supplied products for the investors personal house and the invoice was made for the attention of said investor at said company but at the investors personal address not the business address.

There was a 3 day delay in supplying the products because the haulage company were running behind schedule and we were importing the products specially for this order. I told the company about this delay and they gave me the investors telephone number to call him directly and notify of the delay. I spoke to the investor in the middle of March 2008 and he was ok with this but wanted to know if there was any way he could get them to his house quicker because he had tradesmen there ready for the delivery.

While on the phone I said that I was still waiting for payment of the invoice, to which I was asked
‘how much is it?’

I replied
‘£6726.95’

to which the investor replied
‘fax me the invoice and I will sort it, just get the tiles here as quickly as possible’.

Because of the investors personal wealth and high profile there was no hesitation in getting the tiles delivered directly to his house as he had given his word and agreed to the terms of supply on the invoice which was faxed to him on the same date. The invoice payment terms were ‘payment on delivery’ and further terms of supply can be seen at the end of this statement.

The tiles were delivered in the middle of March 2008, I called to make sure that the materials had arrived and spoke to one of the tillers who said the investor had asked them to thank me on his behalf for getting the materials to them as quickly as we did.

I called the investor to arrange payment but he said he was busy and asked me to call back. I tried several times throughout the week but could not get any response. After the Easter holiday I managed to get into contact with the investor who was now refusing to pay because of a dispute between himself and the company he had invested in.

While I continue to have a good relationship with the company, and the dispute continues I am stuck in the middle for no reason at all and 2 months later I still haven’t been paid for the products which were supplied to the investors house and fitted under the investors instruction to rooms in his house. This whole saga has put my company in a very bad position, we were operating with no overdraft at all and now we have had to arrange overdraft facilities and are getting behind with invoices from our everyday suppliers.

In my mind the investor is liable for the outstanding invoice because the products were delivered to the investors house and he told me on the phone that he would pay the invoice on delivery. The dispute between himself and the company should have no bearing on the invoice from my company to him. The products have been fitted in his home and he is getting the benefit from the products supplied, not the company.

The only way to settle this invoice now is to go legal but I want confirmation that looking to the investor to settle the invoice is the right way to go. Any and all advice will be greatly appreciated.

Here are our full terms of supply:

Paul Pratt – Sales Terms & Conditions


Products:


Granite, Marble, Limestone and Slate are natural stone and are subject to variations in colour, marking and texture. We recommend your installer blend all tiles prior to installation.
Samples of most products are available on request, however, it must be understood that one or two tiles will never represent the full variations available in one product range.

Prices:
All prices quoted are ex-warehouse and exclusive of VAT and delivery, and subject to change without prior notice.

Ordering, Deliveries and Collections:


Full payment will be required with the order by cheque payable to Paul Pratt or bank transfer or by card payment over the phone. If the order is supplied on payment on delivery then payment will become due 1 day after delivery or if on 30 days credit basis, a payment will become due on the 31st day of the supply.
A 50% deposit will be required upon ordering a non-stock material.
We will not accept returns on orders manufactured according to client’s specifications, i.e. cut-to-size.
We will not accept returns on SPECIAL PRICED or CLEARANCE of stock, orders.
Paul Pratt retains the ownership on goods delivered to the customer, until paid in full.
The customer agrees that, if the goods have not been paid for, the goods will be stored in such a way as to be readily identifiable. The customer agrees that the company can enter onto its premises where the goods are store and remove them.
Delivery cost shall be charged according to weight and location.
Delivery may be free up on mutual understanding.
Collections are by prior arrangements only, and can only be made by suitable vehicle. Goods collected are transported at the individuals’ own risk.
Orders may be delivered by a large lorry, so it is important that any restricted access details are advised prior to delivery. The load will be dropped, at the drivers discretion, to the nearest and safest point to your property; this may be on the drive or to the kerbside. The delivery driver cannot help with handling goods into your property, so, the buyer has to arrange for somebody to help with the offload.
All orders must be examined on delivery and any shortage, damages, or other discrepancies must be notified in writing with in 2 working days.
Installation is viewed as acceptance of goods supplied, which means NO claims after this stage will be accepted for any reasons.


Terms for credit accounts:


Advance Payment Terms: A discount of £00.50p/m2 on agreed selling price will be given on advance payments or payments before collection of order.
30 Days Credit Terms: Materials will be sold at agreed selling price with no increase or discount in price.
60 Days Credit Terms: An extra charge of £2.00/m2, on top of agreed selling price will be implemented.
An interest of 4% per week on the outstanding amount will be charged for any payments received after 60 days.


General Care:


Minor chipping on edges may occur on some stones, during delivery and site handling, particularly limestone and marble. Such tile should be kept for use at perimeters where final cutting to size will be necessary.
It is virtually impossible to prevent stone becoming damp during the processing in factory or during transit, which can affect the colour quite significantly. It therefore essential to ensure that all tiles are totally dry prior to installation to assess any colour variation present. Tiles will lighten in colour as they dry.
Tiles should always be stacked and stored vertically (on edge) but not on a hard surface as this can cause edge chipping.
Any natural stone surface has to be impregnated with good sealers after the installation.


Returns:


A 20% restocking charge will be made for any goods returned for credit.
Delivery cost will not be refunded, however, if the material is sold inclusive of delivery cost, we will be entitled to recover a reasonable cost on returned goods.
All returns must be in the original packing and be unopened.
No credit will be given for any material returned damaged.


These Terms & Conditions shall be interpreted, construed and enforced in accordance with the English & Wales law.

E&OE.



Thanks for any advice
Paul ;-)

dp0848
4th June 2008, 08:30
I think this is very simple Paul. If the goods were ordered by the customer, delivered to the home of the customer and the invoice made out to the customer then the customer is liable to pay. I don't think it has anything to do with the company. I think you certainly need to issue a threat of legal action but do consider the effect this might have on the investment being made in your business if the customer and the company eventually resolve their own dispute.

Regards.

David.

ppratt982
4th June 2008, 11:19
Thanks David,

There is no investment being made or sought for my company so no negative effect to worry about.

dp0848
4th June 2008, 11:24
Paul,

If it is of any use to you I have a very good solicitor who does nothing but debt collection work. PM me and I'll give you his contact details. I use him for all my clients debt collection work (I am an accountant).

Regards.

David.

Stonelaughter
4th June 2008, 12:20
A solicitor is a good idea simply because this amount cannot be "heard" in the Small Claims Court - it will have to go on the "Fast Track" Court. The pre-action protocols and paperwork requirements for the Fast Track are more complex than Small Claims and you'd need to have done a few small claims and understood how they work first to be able to go into Fast Track without help. I don't think the solicitor will need to represent you in Court - he'll be more than useful however in assisting you to prepare and present your case.

mikeengland
4th June 2008, 12:54
Just cause he is famous doesn't necessarily mean he has the money to pay you. Have you had a credit search done on him to make sure he isn't experiencing other problems.
Call him directly, explain the issue and tell him that you do not want to go legal but that you will. Follow up that with a letter confirming that if you do not receive payment within 7 days you will instruct a solicitor. In the meantime, prep a solicitor to make ready a letter. You want that letter to arrive on his door (send one to both personal and business address) on day 8, ideally pay extra to have it couriered, it might help him to know you mean business.
Also speak to anyone else you know that has worked on his house, ask if they are also experiencing problems. You need to understand whether he is just being a pain a delaying, has cash flow problems or is about to go under!

Neilh
4th June 2008, 13:56
There is no investment being made or sought for my company so no negative effect to worry about.

A potential issue is that if said investor resolves his issues with the said company and he is in a position of influence, the company may cease or reduce its trading with you if you fall from favour with him.

ppratt982
5th June 2008, 09:34
I realise that if the investor and company resolve their issues then the company may not deal with me any more because of his influence but to be honest if the investor continues to be involved with the company i wouldnt want to deal with them any longer.


I know 100% that this man has the money to pay, we just need this money back in our company.

I think from the posts here the investor needs to pay the invoice and not the company. I will get a solicitor on to this asap.

Thanks for all the help :-)

Anthony Reeves
5th June 2008, 21:38
I would be happy to take on this type of case.
I specialise in debt recovery and have sued many well known people, eg pop stars etc, and recovered the money. The rich or famous do not worry me. Could probably do a "no win no fee arrangement".

Anthony Reeves, F.ILEX. BA(hons)
Pinniger Finch & Co, Solicitors

beenthruthemill
6th June 2008, 15:52
Did the (in)famous person sign a contract directly with you're firm? Did he even sign a contract? The danger as I see it, is that if he can plausibly say he placed his order with your customer and not you he can claim no direct business/contract link with you. If this is the case you may have to take action against them and leave them to argue with him.

It’s given that he'll deny ever promising to pay you. Most people who are comfortable not paying their bills have no scruples about lying or forgetting about specific telephone promises.

Good luck.

ianal the above is just my opinion.

ppratt982
6th June 2008, 18:33
no contract was signed with my company. Just the telephone call where he said he would sort the invoice.

The danger you have seen is my original reason for posting the details of this problem.

Even though no contract was signed the following points from our standard terms and conditions of sale surely work in our favour...


Paul Pratt retains the ownership on goods delivered to the customer, until paid in full.
The customer agrees that, if the goods have not been paid for, the goods will be stored in such a way as to be readily identifiable. The customer agrees that the company can enter onto its premises where the goods are store and remove them.
Installation is viewed as acceptance of goods supplied, which means NO claims after this stage will be accepted for any reasons.

...

beenthruthemill
6th June 2008, 18:47
You are back to the same problem. He can say he's agreement was with the other company and given you already had a business/supply arrangement with them this will sound plausible. You're t&c's do not have any force with him as you, on the face of it, have no contract with him. I'm really sorry to bring you such a gloomy prognosis. I have set up and run start-up companies over the years myself and its bloody criminal how some people treat you when they can well afford to be honest. I'm really at a loss to suggest any other remedy but to sue the company with whom this contract will probably look to have been placed.

ppratt982
6th June 2008, 19:16
i think this could go either way, now that i have got a mixture of views i will speak with a solicitor and get their take on this...

beenthruthemill
6th June 2008, 19:28
Good luck and do let us know how you get on.

Stonelaughter
6th June 2008, 22:24
A verbal agreement to "sort the invoice" (which I admit he'll deny), delivery to his house, installation in his house; I think you have enough to clearly show that you had a contract with him for sale of the stuff. You have no contractural obligation either to or from the third party. Your contract is clearly with him and he should pay immediately; any dispute with the third party is his, not yours. If he has to pay you and he disputes anything in relation to the third party, that is HIS affair and he should take the same route you may do - i.e. he should sue them. I see no occasion for you to involve the third party in any of this - you delivered goods which HE ordered and he has not paid.

nigelmarsh
10th June 2008, 12:52
i would suggest , checking out the asset worth of both parties . ie check last accounts from the company and check the freehold assets of the investor , you have clearly received instruction from 2 parties . if you were my client i would be recommending you put your documentation together to allow you to argue that your invoices should be addressed to both parties , once this is done , issue that court claim .

to use a solicitor will cost you upfront but costs will be able to be added to the debt and may well add to the incentive for the debtor/debtors to negotiate with you directly .

:)