Been sacked - appeal hearing is next week please help!!

[sacked]

Hi,

I was dismissed from Employment on the 29th of February. I have been with the company for over 4 years and since the 2 new managers took over about 6 months ago I have experienced a lot of discrimination.

I was dismissed for Gross Misconduct. The accusations against me was that I used the company phone for making private phone calls and I entered office premises outside working hours to make those calls. They suspended me for those offences and asked me to attend a disciplinary hearing.

Once I was suspended they logged into my laptop and send me another letter saying they would like to add to the accusations that I had used Msn Messenger to chat and I chatted during working hours and because of that I was unable to perform my duties.

The disciplinary hearing was conducted by the manager and the notes of the meeting were being taken by another manager who made the accusations against me. I agreed to making the calls and offered to pay for them. I had made my manager aware long time ago that I was using the office phone after work to call my sister in america and that I was willing to pay for it but now they are saying I did not have that conversation with them.

There is nothing in my employment contract that stipulates anything about office phone usage, internet usage or entering office premises. In fact they agree personal calls are allowed to a certain degree. All employees make personal calls using the office phone and employees access the office outside working hours. I am usually the one who locks up and opens up the office.

There are no policies on internet usage, entering the office premises or office phone usage and there is no employee manual. They have not given me any warnings - written or verbal about any of this. They have never told me that I was not performing my duties.

I had requested that I be send the disciplinary meeting notes and they are not accurate as this manager has omitted things and added things that were not said. She is not an impartial person and should not have been taking the notes. I have send them a cheque for all the calls that I have made.

I requested for an appeal hearing on the grounds of victimisation and discrimination. They have send me my P45 before the appeal. Is this legal?

Does anybody think I have a case for unfair and wrongful dismissal? I am also planning on bring in a case for discrimination and victimsation against them at the employee tribunal. Any advise on how I should tackle the appeal hearing would be great.

Please help if you know anything about these things.

Thanks in advance for all your help.

Regards

Sacked M :(

[PI Guy]

using the company telephone for long distance personal calls is usually gross misconduct.

[Software_MS]

Calling your sister in America?? Assuming your in the UK, international calls on a company phone is a complete no no.

[ken_uk]

If the manager was told that international calls were being made to the employees sister, in America, and they were ok with that at the time, but are denying it now, it seems that manager is not on the side of the employee so expect the worst, and seek legal advice before it occurs.

[Mister B]

I agree with the others...you need to seek out proper legal advice.

My only observation that has not been mentioned already, regards an independent witness/representative of your choice. Were you offered one or not?

Mister B

[Ashley_Price]

I also find it extremely concerning that you are publicising this case so openly on a public forum that is indexed by Google. Would this not hurt your case as you appear to be making allegations that should really be kept confidential and between the parties involved.

[Jezclayton]

I am relatively new to this forum so I may well have missed something here.

Provided the original poster is not currently on the company internet (unlikley due to having been sacked) how is this information not being kept confidential when neither the company, individuals or original poster is named, other than being called 'sacked' and 'M'.

This isn't exactly Watergate is it?

As far as the original question goes, I see little difference between what has occurred and dipping your fingers in the till. You also porvide no information as to the basis for any claim for discrimination.

[Gillie]

I also find it extremely concerning that you are publicising this case so openly on a public forum that is indexed by Google. Would this not hurt your case as you appear to be making allegations that should really be kept confidential and between the parties involved.

No names are mentioned, no company is slated and no area is given so unless the people concerned are scouring google and typing in sacked and appeal hearings next week, how the hell are they going to find this?? Or even prove it??

[FPB-advice]

It is not entirely unheard of for certain industries to utilise IM for business, or for Companies to allow a certain level of personal phone usage, but i don't feel the manner you have treated your employers is anything other than despicable :mad:

You enter the office out of hours to make international calls to your sister, fiddle around on IM during working hours to socialise and feel you are being discriminated against and victimised?

I think the appeal would probably not yield any benefit to you, but you could throw yourself at their mercy and plead that you did not realise your actions were so frowned upon - their has been a misunderstanding etc, show remorse and be contrite, request that they dont uphold the decision but place you on an action short of dismissal and agree to be placed on a probationary period etc etc.

As an aside in response to post #5 with regards "independent witness/representative of your choice"
This is not the case in disciplinaries, the employee has the right to be accompanied by a co-worker or suitably experienced TU official, anything other than that would be at the discretion of the employer ;)

[lockie]

Why would you risk your job over some phone calls ? With so many home broadband packages offering them free via the supplied router it doesn't make sense.

[ComputerForensicsOnline]

If this matter goes to tribunal and your legal representatives wish to quantify the time your employers are alleging you spent on MSN, give me a call or PM me.

I specialise in this area!

[sacked]

Dear computer forensics online,

thanks for your offer and yes this will go to tribunal and i might have to give you a call for advice. I believe I have only used my break time to go on to MSN Messenger to chat. I dont take breaks for tea and wasnt even going out for lunch breaks.

I would like to thank everyone for their advice and I still don't know whether I have a case or not but one thing I wont do is give up. I am going to stand up for myself and I dont believe that I have done anything gross enough to be dismissed.

I have suffered discrimination under these employers and I am putting together a case sheet on how I have had to go through differential treatment.

I did not know I was jeopardising my job when I made those phone calls. I was under the impression my manager would come to me and say you have made these calls can you please pay for them not use that against me.

One more good news is I have found a solicitor who said they might be interested in my case so fingers crossed.

anybody else has got any thoughts?

Sacked but content
Trust in the one above and you got nothing to worry!

[creospace]

What type of discrimination are you thinking has been made against you? Sexual , racial, ageist, something else?

Incorrectly sacking you isn't victimisation it's just 'wrongful dismissal' there must be something else for that to happen.

[FPB-advice]

Have a look through your household insurances to see if you have any form of cover in respect to legal representation/advice, give ACAS a call on 08457 474747.

I would focus at the moment on the appeal and how you are going to handle that in attempting to get them to reinstate.
If you go in there alleging discrimination (it would infact be 'less favourable treatment'), look at this case sheet i've compiled, that you have seen a solicitor and they would be happy to represent..... I can tell you the outcome now and save you the bother of attending.

Show remorse contriteness disappointment, that there has been misunderstanding at worst, that it was never your intention to steal from them by way of using the telephone, but was expecting to pay for the calls if they deemed excessive in comparison to others personal usage, that you thought this had been ok'd by management.
That your time on IM had been at break times and not during times when your nose should have been at the grindstone.. Ask them to look at your history with the Company (unblemished/punctual/reliable/diligent/productive)

The appeal is your real chance to get things put in order if you feel there has been injustice, relying on a tribunal would be foolish as it may not even get past any pre-hearing.
Work on what you are going to say when appeal is heard.

[ken_uk]

I think the outcome is already predictable, as the manager apparently was informed the calls were being made, and was ok with it, now they are backtracking, and totally denying they were told, so to me it appears the manager actually wants to have the person fired.

The appeal is little more than the company going through the motions, so they can say they followed the correct procedure.

I cannot see the manager coming forward and saying, oh yeah, sorry, I lied earlier, you really did tell me, and I really was OK with the calls, it is going to be your word against his, and they will side with the manager.

I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

[maria102]

It is not entirely unheard of for certain industries to utilise IM for business, or for Companies to allow a certain level of personal phone usage, but i don't feel the manner you have treated your employers is anything other than despicable :mad:

You enter the office out of hours to make international calls to your sister, fiddle around on IM during working hours to socialise and feel you are being discriminated against and victimised?



I'm sorry, but that is a completely over-the-top response, its not 1972! We are in an age of technology and I can't think of anywhere that I have worked as a contractor where you don't have access to the internet or are stopped from using the phone for personal usage. Granted the international thing isn't great, but hardly despicable!

[Jezclayton]

I'm sorry, but that is a completely over-the-top response, its not 1972! We are in an age of technology and I can't think of anywhere that I have worked as a contractor where you don't have access to the internet or are stopped from using the phone for personal usage. Granted the international thing isn't great, but hardly despicable!

There's always two sides.

Ask yourself if you would feel the same way were you the employer and ulitimately footing the bill. Consider perhaps that an important client is visiting and nothing seems ready. You then find that the culprit is engaged on an international phone call to a friend, or is otherwise busy in an internet chat room.

Are you still going to say "sorry, carry on, it's not as if it's 1972 is it?"

[sacked]

I don't know whether you have ever worked in an office. If an important client is coming, normally one would put their head down and work hard.

Nobody works all the time and our work place was supposed to be relaxed and I only started doing those things after observing what others were doing.

98% of the calls I made were after working hours.

Despicable is when an employers thinks of ways to get rid of their employees without giving them notice or giving them any warnings.

[maria102]

There's always two sides.

Ask yourself if you would feel the same way were you the employer and ulitimately footing the bill. Consider perhaps that an important client is visiting and nothing seems ready. You then find that the culprit is engaged on an international phone call to a friend, or is otherwise busy in an internet chat room.

Are you still going to say "sorry, carry on, it's not as if it's 1972 is it?"

Where has that scenario come from?! absolutely nothing to suggest those circumstances or anything like them has been sugggested! If you going to come back at me, make it with something credible!

[sacked]

dear FPB advice,

I am going to take your advice on board and I will definitely go in there and plead for their mercy but I honestly dont think there is going to be anyway in. I contacted a certain person from our head office and it was made clear they want rid.

Like Ken UK said the appeal is just an obligation they have to go through to complete the booting out. I would like to see the fact sheet you are referring to.. can you please send me a link or let me know how i can access it?

I dont know whether relying on the tribunal would be foolish because i have no hope of over turning their decision at the appeal.

Is there any points you think I should make at the appeal?

thanks once again for all your help.

Sacked
God bless!

[sacked]

Where has that scenario come from?! absolutely nothing to suggest those circumstances or anything like them has been sugggested! If you going to come back at me, make it with something credible!

I completely agree with you maria. I don't know where some of these people get their ideas from. I was really put off when I read the original comment this user posted and was feeling down about my chances.

I did make those calls but not under the belief that I will succed in conning them of money but under the impression that I will be asked to pay for them.

I would really like to be more forthcoming about the scenario but since this is a public form i am being cautious.

thanks once again for all your support.

Sacked

[Jezclayton]

Where has that scenario come from?! absolutely nothing to suggest those circumstances or anything like them has been sugggested! If you going to come back at me, make it with something credible!

Sorry - I didn't mean to offend.

I'm just saying there's always two sides, of which we've heard only one. Employer's rarely sack good employees for no reason, even if they're not entirely honest with the real reason.

Before I decided to set up my own business 10 years ago, I was actually a senior manager of a large construction group (> 1,000 employees) for nearly 15 years. It would no doubt horrify you to know that human resources was one of the departments under my jurisdiction. I was also the company officer who would attend court in case of employee disputes or personal injury.

[PI Guy]

dear FPB advice,

I am going to take your advice on board and I will definitely go in there and plead for their mercy but I honestly dont think there is going to be anyway in. I contacted a certain person from our head office and it was made clear they want rid.

Like Ken UK said the appeal is just an obligation they have to go through to complete the booting out. I would like to see the fact sheet you are referring to.. can you please send me a link or let me know how i can access it?

I dont know whether relying on the tribunal would be foolish because i have no hope of over turning their decision at the appeal.

Is there any points you think I should make at the appeal?

thanks once again for all your help.

Sacked
God bless!
i think that you've caught doing something that it it were my company, i would dismiss you for it.

Having said that, there are a couple of points in ur favour;

1 - no company policy with regards to internet usage.
2 - no company policy with regards to telephone usage.
3 - custom and practice ie everyone else is doing the same as you.

[sacked]

i think that you've caught doing something that it it were my company, i would dismiss you for it.

Having said that, there are a couple of points in ur favour;

1 - no company policy with regards to internet usage.
2 - no company policy with regards to telephone usage.
3 - custom and practice ie everyone else is doing the same as you.

I have worked hard for this place and was getting results in what I was doing. What I did was not affecting my work so why would you want rid? this place was like a second home to me because of the number of employees there and it was people I trusted who stabbed me in the back.

they want rid because they follow orders from a recession threatened country. I cant give you anymore info than that.

thanks for your advice anyway.

once again god bless

Sacked

[maria102]

Sorry - I didn't mean to offend.

I'm just saying there's always two sides, of which we've heard only one. Employer's rarely sack good employees for no reason, even if they're not entirely honest with the real reason.

Before I decided to set up my own business 10 years ago, I was actually a senior manager of a large construction group (> 1,000 employees) for nearly 15 years. It would no doubt horrify you to know that human resources was one of the departments under my jurisdiction. I was also the company officer who would attend court in case of employee disputes or personal injury.

No offence taken, it's just debate on here :p

[PI Guy]

I have worked hard for this place and was getting results in what I was doing. What I did was not affecting my work so why would you want rid? this place was like a second home to me because of the number of employees there and it was people I trusted who stabbed me in the back.

they want rid because they follow orders from a recession threatened country. I cant give you anymore info than that.

thanks for your advice anyway.

once again god bless

Sackedi would dismiss because i would have had a policy that meant u follow the rules or ur out. I felt a bit uneasy at the bit where yiu say u came back out of hours etc this indicates that u knew it was wrong,

having said all that, your appeal may succeed as long as my 3 points earlier are true.

[Ashley_Price]

I have worked hard for this place and was getting results in what I was doing. What I did was not affecting my work so why would you want rid?But technically you were stealing from the company!

I am sorry, but no matter how good the employee, if I found someone stealing from my firm then they would be out. No exceptions (not even the wife! :D).

[ken_uk]

If managerial permission had been given to make the international phone calls, then how is it stealing?

[FPB-advice]

I'm sorry, but that is a completely over-the-top response, its not 1972! We are in an age of technology and I can't think of anywhere that I have worked as a contractor where you don't have access to the internet or are stopped from using the phone for personal usage. Granted the international thing isn't great, but hardly despicable!

Certainly not over the top by any means, personal usage of phones is allowed to a degree but the user would normally ask prior to using, there is not a carte-blanche allowance to make calls.
Further it was intimated in the OP that the calls were made by entering the premises after working hours.
With regards the internet usage, most Companies have a policy, but even in the absence of that there is a limit to what is right and what is wrong - what is acceptable and what isn't, most Companies have a defining line and it is not for the employees to set this but the people who provide the equipment/facility.

Information has come out since the original post as is normally the case, there are always two sides to every story, so many thanks for your comments which were made after more information was available. I trust you noted that although I poured scorn on the OP in first post that I did infact suggest what could be done about it in the same post... or did you miss that part?

[FPB-advice]

To the OP
As Salinv has correctly pointed out..
1 - no company policy with regards to internet usage.
2 - no company policy with regards to telephone usage.
3 - custom and practice ie everyone else is doing the same as you.

These are all points you must raise at the appeal, take notes with you that you can refer to with relevant information, in the absence of clear policies you have room for manouvre.
Don't forget that the appeal would be heard by a different person, if not done so already suggest they may need further investigation into the internet usage to ascertain timings (if not already done) to confirm your assertion that the use was at breaktimes and therefore should not be taken into consideration (perhaps suggest they might need to adjourn while this information is gained.. if you could get them to backtrack on that element then you could use it to your advantage). Stress that you would not have used the telephone for personal calls if you had not taken this up with management first, that you had (or at least thought) this had been ok'd, that you had repaid.

[lockie]

I have to ask at what point did you make your manager aware of you coming into the office after hours to make calls to america ?

Did you ask before doing this or make him aware after it came to light ?

I think this has great bearing on it because if you came forward and asked before doing it you would probably have been told you couldn't do it.

If i was an employer i would be asking questions about why an employee was in the office out of hours, what else were they up to ?

At the end of the day it looks like your getting sack regardless of what you say so i would be more concerned about what you are going to say to your next employer, maybe its best to resign ?

[maxine]

i think that you've caught doing something that it it were my company, i would dismiss you for it.

Having said that, there are a couple of points in ur favour;

1 - no company policy with regards to internet usage.
2 - no company policy with regards to telephone usage.
3 - custom and practice ie everyone else is doing the same as you.

Agree with these points made to go in your favour. For MSN it would be favourable to you could state that other employees were using at the same times and levels as you without any warnings.

As for the international phone calls out of normal working hours I think you would only be taken seriously if you could either prove in some way that your manager gave you permission either with a witness, emails, a record of where and when the conversation took place etc or if there were other work colleagues doing the same thing also with approval. If your manager had given you permission to make the calls at the businesses expense then why are you agreeable to paying the money back?

Hope your appeal goes ok

[sacked]

As for the international phone calls out of normal working hours I think you would only be taken seriously if you could either prove in some way that your manager gave you permission either with a witness, emails, a record of where and when the conversation took place etc or if there were other work colleagues doing the same thing also with approval. If your manager had given you permission to make the calls at the businesses expense then why are you agreeable to paying the money back?

Hope your appeal goes ok

Thanks maxine. The phone calls were not going to be made at business expense I had agreed to pay for them. The manager was okay with that and I have paid for it in the past as well. I am trying to find when.

[FPB-advice]

The phone calls were not going to be made at business expense I had agreed to pay for them. The manager was okay with that and I have paid for it in the past as well. I am trying to find when.
If you could find that information, then it would make a massive massive difference :eek:

[sacked]

Hi,

thanks for the advice guys.

I would like to wish you all a happy easter break.

..
god bless