Eco friendly detergents and cleaners

[green mum]

What products do people use for general household use?

I'm thinking of having a wider range on my website and am interested to know what people use.

Over to you now Gill...

[RayB]

I would like to be educated, being a bloke I use the normal stuff (whatever that is) - I'm here to listen to new ideas though

[Gill]

Thank you Green Mum (and Ray for the suggestion). I have cleaned my house and businesses using only natural products for the last five years. I am on a private water supply and have recently swapped to an eco-bubble for sewerage, I therefore cannot use man made chemicals as they will not degrade quickly enough. This was not the reason for the switch, I wanted to live a less toxic life. I wanted my family not to be around man made chemicals - I genuinely find it odd that we are careful about what we put into and onto our bodies and yet surround ourselves with chemicals.
When people visit my house they talk more about how they feel - of course it is clean - I am a bit fanatical - but it smells wonderful - only natural aromas from essential oils - carefully selected so that every time you come into my house it is an uplifting experience - I can't do that on my own! I would if I could!
I am not going to preach or scaremonger - just to let you know that there is a genuine alternative - no rocket science is involved - remember the advert when 'Brilliant met Simple' here I am simple meets brilliant!
Gill

[RayB]

Groovy, but for the "man in the street" (like me) what are the benefits, what can we change simply, and can we save money?

[Gill]

So of course my house is cleaned using products from The Green Housekeeper as is my office and workshop.
Hands up I have to supplement with Ecover (laundry bleach, percarbonate carefully does it) - but hopefully only for a limited time - I am working on it!
Gill

[RayB]

Hi Gill,

All sounds fine - but I cant grasp the benefits, or understand the concept.

Please explain what you are advocating :)

[Gill]

Agh you got me again - I AM NOT A HIPPY - or should it be an hippy?
The benefits - YES it will cost less. This will require some work from you - please use less - I have made these products as concentrated as I possibly can - smaller bottles, less transport costs. 100% natural ingredients - they occur naturally, nature has a way of degrading these safely and quickly.
Above that they actually do work - it isn't magic, it is still science it can be explained but yes - man made substitutes are far cheaper. The products are simple - they clean a multitude of surfaces, use less product and less variety of product. It is confusing, after all water itself is a detergent (no they aren't quite that simple) these products clearly state all ingredients and they do indeed all have a purpose - no fillers for perceived value - just full strength natural cleaning. Plus we recycle all of our packaging for all of our customers - we feel responsible for the whole kit and caboodle.
I could go on ..... no doubt I will!
Gill

[Gill]

Sorry Ray - I am always apologising aren't I?
Simple changes - please swap your washing up liquid to a natural alternative - for example ours - use far, far less (ours is 5x strength of the best known brand - you know the one) you will not notice the difference in performance - still clean plates - guilt free - you aren't killing aquatic life plus the essential oils are really uplifting - less of a chore.
Use our Essential Housekeeping Spray for just about any other surface - apart from French Polish - clean and room fresh in one product. Clean your loo with our Lavatory Cleaner - job done, forget bleach - small changes - big difference.
Huge apologies in advance if this is blatant selling - well it is really -but I was just trying to explain the small changes the 'man on the street' could make - incidentally Ray you aren't a man I am likely to meet on my street! It is unlikely I would meet any man on our street!

[green mum]

As requested Ray - here's a bit more info on Eco Balls.

For £34.99 (on average) you get your 3 eco balls, stain remover and refill balls. Eco balls are recommended for about 1000 washes, so in this case an environmentally friendly alternative does not have to be more expensive. (They work out at about 3p per wash)

Because there's no detergent to rinse away you can shorten your rinse cycle which saves electricity and water. They soften your clothes naturally so there is no need to use fabric conditioner. They're also hypo-allergenic so they are suitable for sensitive skin.

How do they work? Well, they produce ionized oxygen that penetrate into the fabric and lift dirt away. They are completely natural and contain no chemicals so they are completely environmentally friendly.

One thing I would say with Eco Balls is that they won't leave your clothes smelling perfumed (because they contain no perfumes). If this is a concern though you can add a little environmentally friendly detergent - you'll only need a tiny amount though.

There are no bleaching agents involved so they're not going to whiten your clothes. You do sometimes need to use the stain remover that comes with them. especially if you've got a really dirty lot of washing.

I've tried to give a really honest view of them here, they're not 'miracle' balls and I must admit I still stick to my usual 'environmentally friendly' detergent if I have a really dirty lot of washing with things like grass stains.

I would say I probably use them for 80% of my washing - that's a lot less detergent that's going down my drain.

Hope this helps Ray.....

I'm looking forward to sampling Gill's new laundry detergent - I'm sure Lily's nappies will put it to the test!

[Gill]

An excellent explanation Green Mum - as ever - I will send the Laundry liquid to you tomorrow - soap based - stains can be pre treated with this too - I know!
If you are comparing with either eco balls or other natural laundry liquids I do think I will win (brave) and I want absolutely honest feedback please - if you compare with the stinky new 2-in-1 which is so far removed from natural then I don't believe it is a fair trial but still don't mind and am still positive - not prepared to compare personally. All of our clothes are clean and sweet smelling, I do, on average three loads per day - I know!!!!!
12 months ago I was asked to prepare a fabric conditioner - I simply said no.
Hands up I am really struggling with a dishwasher liquid - why so different - I just can't stop the bubbles now!
Gill
(not Rays wife)

[green mum]

If you are comparing with either eco balls or other natural laundry liquids I do think I will win (brave)

ooh, sounds like a green housekeeping challenge!.... I think Eco Balls can be used alongside natural liquids depending on the needs of the wash. Of course your liquid may prove that I no longer need the balls!


12 months ago I was asked to prepare a fabric conditioner - I simply said no.

Never use the stuff, don't see the need!

Hands up I am really struggling with a dishwasher liquid - why so different - I just can't stop the bubbles now!


I'm probably one of the only people in Devon who doesn't have a dishwasher!

[Gill]

And I, the only person in the Lakes, who doesn't have one for 'home' use!
I question whether these are genuine time/labour saving devices. Something else to go wrong - and I really am Mrs Positive!
Gill

[Cornish Steve]

When someone first posted a message about these things a few months back, I actually took time to look into it. One of the first links I found was to the attorney general's page for the state of Oregon. After an investigation and tests by researchers at the University of Portland, the claims for these balls were found to be false. In fact, the words of criticism were quite harsh: "It's an absolute scam, and it's a shame people use ignorance to sell a product that's not scientifically accredited." I just did a search, and here are a couple of related articles.

http://www.stretcher.com/stories/971106a.cfm

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/ATG/statesman-journal.html (http://www.cs.cmu.edu/%7Edst/ATG/statesman-journal.html)

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4161/is_20061203/ai_n16890065/pg_2

So, from being someone willing to try it out I became a cynic. How can you convince me and others that the product really works when university research proves it does not? Admittedly, the report is ten years old, so has new research been published since then? Convince me!

[green mum]

Hi again Steve

These articles refer to 'laundry balls' which contain a blue liquid. They are a totally different product to Eco Balls which do not contain a liquid - they contain mineral salts.

There are a lot of other 'laundry balls' advertised on the market but they are no substitute for the 'original'

If you're going to use them you need to buy the real thing - not a cheaper alternative.

Have a look at
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/4969324.stm

I too was cynical before I tried them but I've been really pleased with them.

If you still need convincing why not try them, they come with a 30 day money back guarantee!

[Gill]

Dear Steve

I wasn't trying to convince you to buy eco balls. I have heard both good and bad reports on them. I have used them - wasn't blown away - the balls for the tumble drier are something else - I don't however have a tumble drier - if I did.....

During my time completing product research I did purchase and test lots of products from Australia and America - claiming to be all natural and therefore competition. I sit here all smug. Products were either not entirely natural or not as effective as ours - of course this wasn't simply my opinion, we did complete blind testing too.

I have to say that there is a company called Evans Garden (USA) and they do make the most amazing eye make up - it really is outstanding and completely natural and handmade and currently of course - cheap as chips - sorry, currency rate. Mentioning the company as they do make products by hand from only natural ingredients, so in that respect are similar. Make up is super - really it is!

I doubt I can convince anyone of anything - just saying that choice is there.
Gill

[Cornish Steve]

I doubt I can convince anyone of anything - just saying that choice is there.
Like most people, I want to be convinced. If there really are natural ways of doing things that are just as effective and no more expensive, I'd be using them right away. So, please, continue with your convincing!

I'm not going to be using the amazing eye make-up though. ;)

[green mum]

I'm not going to be using the amazing eye make-up though. ;)

Oh go on, you know you want to :D

[Gill]

Ok I am staying calm - Steve - what did people do before we all got so greedy and needed the now - quicker, cheaper route.
Natural products of course can be just as, if not more so, effective, synthetic alternatives have been sought because they are cheaper, add some filler to add perceived value and a host of preservatives so that it will last longer and Hey Presto - I am Barry Scott!
Sorry if that doesn't mean anything to you Steve - it is a reference to a current UK advert which I hope will make some people smile.
I think you can be convinced as you are here and asking all of the relevant questions - my products may not fit the bill as they would have to be shipped thousands of miles - it is all about responsibility after all.
I don't wish to sound as if I am getting at you Steve - I am responding to questions raised! Plus it is late and I am tired, come - stick pins tomorrow!

[green mum]

To be honest I'm happy to use a natural cleaning product even if it isn't 'as' effective as one containing chemicals. (not that I'm saying yours aren't Gill, I haven't tried them yet!)

I don't want my home to be sterile, a little dirt never hurt anyone. Many of your 'chemical' cleaners just contain so many perfumes that they make your home smell cleaner but that's not necessarily the case. We don't need these perfumes, or foaming agents - they don't serve any useful purpose.

My main concern is the effect on the environment that these chemical cleaning products have. A friend of mine is a marine biologist - he's done studies on the effects that these products have on our wildlife and it's really scary!

That's the reason why I use environmentally friendly/natural cleaning products - for me it's not about which is cheaper or which makes my whites whiter.

Not sure we can convince you Steve, I think it comes down to whether or not you want to reduce your effect on the environment - hopefully this might help to persuade even if we don't convince!

[Cornish Steve]

I don't wish to sound as if I am getting at you Steve - I am responding to questions raised! Plus it is late and I am tired, come - stick pins tomorrow!
And you don't sound that way at all - don't worry.

All successful businesses must have a compelling story and be able to convey the essence of their message to the right target audience. I'm trying to understand that essence - beneath the eco-friendly verbiage. What is it that would cause me to change my buying habits? Or maybe I'm not the right target market. Can you save me money? Can you make my life easier or more interesting? These are more effective drivers than general statements about the environment. (I'm a real cynic when it comes to sweeping statements.)

One message I'm hearing is that eco-balls cost less per wash than detergent use. On the other hand, I'm reading reports that they are not as effective on some types of dirt (e.g., grease). That becomes a trade-off: cost versus effectiveness. The argument about helping the environment seems vague to me: Are there objective research findings about the effect of detergents on wildlife?

[green mum]

All successful businesses must have a compelling story and be able to convey the essence of their message to the right target audience.

I think maybe you're not our target audience Steve, no offence!


Are there objective research findings about the effect of detergents on wildlife?

http://naturalengland.twoten.com/NaturalEnglandShop/product.aspx?ProductID=52ee829f-a1ef-4df7-b31a-ead2d6a8d595

This one covers global warming and the use of chemicals - fill your boots!

There's plenty more on the web, if you have a spare decade to read it
Still not convinced? I think perhaps you may never be..:rolleyes:

[Cornish Steve]

This one covers global warming and the use of chemicals - fill your boots!

There's plenty more on the web, if you have a spare decade to read it
Still not convinced? I think perhaps you may never be..:rolleyes:
But this link is from a biased website - as are the majority of reports. To establish credibility, the reports must be objective and come from established and respected universities, etc. Can you point to some of these? It would really help to make your case.

[green mum]

But this link is from a biased website - as are the majority of reports. .

Hi again Steve. Not sure how you can say this report (and the majority of other reports) are biased when they are based on specific scientific research!

[Cornish Steve]

Because of the company's objectives: "Natural England works for people, places and nature to conserve and enhance biodiversity, landscapes and wildlife in rural, urban, coastal and marine areas." In other words, they're not an objective source for information related to environmental issues. They're hardly going to publish reports that undermine their mission. If the same report was published at the University of Cambridge website, for example, that's what I would accept as an objective source.

I'm not just dismissing what you're saying. I'm looking for greater credibility to the argument, that's all. Objective support from neutral third-party researchers would really bolster your message.

[green mum]

Sorry, doesn't change the fact that it is scientific evidence!

[RayB]

Sorry, doesn't change the fact that it is scientific evidence!

Ah - Scientific evidence - that is what this thread is craving (I'm still sitting on the fence at the moment TBH)

Please post a link to the science and we will all be convinced :)

[Qualitee]

I was reading this thread last night, too tired to reply then!

My eco balls resurfaced last week. Nigh on one year after moving house:eek:

I was motivated to use them today. The rugby kit came up clean!

I bought them some time ago, but I still use washing powder, I buy softener but barely use it!!!

Funny enough I saw a pamphlet today for the tumble drier balls, saying they save 25% of time normally used! Is this true?

I am not (sorry) a save the planet person!!

Pauline

[Gill]

Hi Pauline
I don't own a tumble drier as I have a cast iron stove and airer in the kitchen - however my mother has one and uses it daily and swears by the little balls, not only do they reduce drying time but they fluff up the fibres making fabrics feel softer - she is also convinced it reduces time ironing, but this may be to please me!
I can vouch for the time saved and fabric softness - not the ironing claim though.
Gill
Ps I will be back shortly to scrap, hmm, err, debate with Steve and Ray (please I am joking).
Sorry I left you Tracy - been out to the local bonfire with the children!!!!

[green mum]

[quote=Qualitee;340665]

Funny enough I saw a pamphlet today for the tumble drier balls, saying they save 25% of time normally used! Is this true?
/quote]

Hi Pauline,
In my experience, yes this is true. They also leave your clothes really soft.

Quote = goldctrsteve
Because of the company's objectives: "Natural England works for people, places and nature to conserve and enhance biodiversity, landscapes and wildlife in rural, urban, coastal and marine areas." In other words, they're not an objective source for information related to environmental issues.

Natural England are actually part of DEFRA and as such are answerable to the Secretary of State - I don't think you can get much more credible than that. If you want totally impartial research conducted by a university then I don't think you will find it. All research projects I have come across are commissioned or funded by one agency or another, whether this be the Environment Agency, or whoever.

If I still can't persuade you to use a more environmentally friendly detergent just ask yourself, what harm will it do to try it? If everyone changed to a more natural alternative, think of the difference it could make! ;)

[green mum]

P.S I can't get the hang of inserting quotes!! Apologies....

[RayB]

P.S I can't get the hang of inserting quotes!! Apologies....

[quote ] wrap this around the quote [/quote ] without the spaces and all will be well :)

[green mum]

Thanks Ray!

[gibby]

We use & sell Citricidal (http://www.alternativesoles.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=AS&Product_Code=CP002-VM302&Category_Code=CP) - Grapefruit seed extract

a friend told me about it -

Citricidal - Grapefruit Seed Extract. Vegan Society Approved.
Citricidal is a natural anti-viral, anti-bacterial, anti-parasitic & anti-fungal
derived from grapefruit seeds & is used for a whole range of applications for ultimate microbial protection.
This powerful long lasting little bottle is used by many as a way to replace many of the cleaners in our homes.
Chemical Free Cleaner.
Add 25 drops to washing up water to add extra anti microbial action
for washing dishes. Add Citricidal to your cloth or sponge to clean surfaces
& food preparation areas to disinfect, especially after contact with raw
meats & fish. Suitable for kitchen, batroom etc.
Fruit & Vegetable Wash
Mix 15 drops of Citricidal with water in a bowl & use to wash fruits & vegetables as you prepare them.
This will kill off any unwanted bacteria & fungus lurking in your veggies.
Colds & Flu.
Ward off bugs by taking 3 - 15 drops in a glass of water or juice the moment
you know your under attack. Repeat 3 times daily.

Athletes Foot.
this condition occurs when the skin becomes vulnerable to fungal
overgrowth. Soak feet in a basin of warm water with 5 - 10 drops
of Citricidal. Squeeze 1 drop onto cotton wool & place between the toes.

Cold Sores.
This is the result of a viral infection. Add 5 drops of Citricidal to 50
drops of vegetable oil or hygenic cream. Apply mixture to sore with
cotton wool or cotton bud 3 or 4 times daily.

Cuts, Wounds & Bites.
Prevent cuts & wounds from becoming infected and accelerate healing
by cleaning with a diluted solution of Citricidal. Add 3 - 5 drops
to a half pint of filtered water.

Dandruff.
According to dermatologists, dandruff is often caused by an inflammatory
reaction to an overgrowth of scalp fungus. Add 3 - 5 drops of Citricidal
to a mild shampoo, wait 4 mins before rinsing. Avoid contact with the eyes.

Ear Infections.
An excellent way to deal with ear infections or infections picked up from
swimming pools. Apply 4 drops onto wet cotton wool, squeeze a little in the
ear or leave a small piece of cotton wool in the ear for 2 hours a day.

Facial Wash.
Acne, black heads & blemishes may develop when the skin is unable to
fight off microbes such as bacteria. add 1 - 3 drops to liquid cleanser or
water. Avoid eyes & rinse properly.

Fungal Nail Infections.
Brittle, discoloured & deformed nails are generally formed as a result of
a fungal nail infection. Put 1 drop of Citricidal directly on the affected
nail, along the cuticle and underneath the front of the nail.

Head lice, prevention & Cure.
Citricidal makes a safe & natural alternative to conventional treatments
for head lice & prevents infection. Place 3 - 5 drops in shampoo, rub
thoroughly into the hair & leave for 2 - 3 mins. Rinse & repeat as
required until infection clears.

Mouth Wash & toothbrush cleaner
Gum disease & bad breath are often the result of a bacterial infection
of the gums. Mix 5 drops in a tumbler glass of filtered water. Gargle
around the mouth and rinse through the teeth after brushing.
Also important to clean your toothbrush with Citricidal daily. Soak for
10 mins with 10 drops. Rinse before reusing.

Nasal Wash.
use for conditions such as sinusitis. Mix 1 drop of Citricidal with
2oz filtered water. Tilt head back, fill each nostril with eye dropper
full of mixture. swing head forward & down then return to upright position.
Allow nasal passages to drain, do not inhale during process.

Ringworm.
Not a worm but a fungus. Put 1 drop on wet cotton wool and wipe infected area
3 or 4 times daily.

Unsafe Water.
Citricidal can be used when travelling or on holiday where the water may not
be safe to drink. Add a few drops to a bottle of water to kill off potential
pathogens.

Vaginal Douche.
use Citricidal as an effective way of combating thrush or vaginitis.
Mix 1- 3 drops with 8oz of water. Douche once or more daily.

Warts & Verruca.
these are one of the few occasions where Citricidal can be used neat.
Apply 1 drop to wart or verruca and cover with a plaster. change daily
& continue until until vanished. Do not use this treatment in areas
near eyes or genitals.

Pets.
Citicidal is safe to use for skin infections & infections for pets.
Dilute in the same way as you would for humans.

Plants.
Put 3 drops in a hand spray bottle and spray plants for protection from bugs.
Insect Repeller.
Mix 10 drops of Citricidal with water in a spray bottle & add some cider apple vinegar.
Spray around areas that are trouble with ants & insects, 3 time daily.
It is known to drive the insects out of the area and repeated use will stop return without
the need for chemical, toxic poisons.
Sugar free, lactose free, dairy free, gluten free, yeast free.
Suitable for vegetarians, vegans & everyone else.


Environmental Cleaning products for your home by Alternative Soles

[green mum]

Wow - that sounds pretty amazing. I'd not heard of that before

Thanks very much

[safesys]

I use Ecover at home for several uses - washing tablets, fabric softener, toilet cleaner etc - seems to do the job.

Cheers

Chris

[green mum]

Yes, it does seem to be a really popular brand at the moment. I've used it myself quite a bit. I've found the stain remover to be really good.

[safesys]

Yes, it does seem to be a really popular brand at the moment. I've used it myself quite a bit. I've found the stain remover to be really good.

Smells alright too :)

[gibby]

sadly we stopped using Ecover as they have been discovered to be using animal testing on their products - when they promised they were not

The vegan society are pulling there trademark off the products and
many stores are pulling the products from their shelves as its no longer veggie

I know many ethically lead people are really annoyed over this as they have been buying the stuff for quite a few years and upset at being mislead

On the other side of it there is a better range called Bio D which works better and also Clear Spring is another one that is very good too.

Bio D is also better as its manufatured in the UK and not flow in from Belguim like Ecover, cutting down on air miles & CO2

We are also just trying out soapnuts or soap pods for washing clothes

G

[green mum]

We are also just trying out soapnuts or soap pods for washing clothes


Yep, Have tried these. I think they work really well. You just need to make sure the little bag doesn't come undone or they all come out in your wash and leave bits everywhere! That's terrible about Ecover, I hadn't heard that. A huge mistake on their part becasue it will make customers wonder what else they are lying about!

[Gill]

Hi Green mum

Tomorrow you will be trying a handmade all natural laundry liquid!!!
I hope!

I have tried products from all of the companies mentioned on here, Ecover, Bio-D and Clear Spring (amongst many others) whilst completing market research and product development, they were good and effective. Room for all!

Still like mine best! So did a panel of blind testers (they weren't blind of course) meaning they tested products having no idea where it came from.

The results are to be published in the Spring, can't wait. Well I can of course.

Gill

[Feedmeallergyfree]

Hi,

This thread has been really interesting as I'm another one who is trying to be "greener".

I too have tried the Ecover products but no longer use them and have also tried the real traditional route of vinegar and bicarb. The problem I have is that I live in such a hard water area that it is an impossible battle against the good old limescale. In the end, I always end up resorting to a really harsh cleaner to get rid of it!

Having said that it's been interesting to find out about a whole variety of products that I didn't know existed - and I'll certainly be checking them out.

Lucy

[green mum]

Thanks for all your contributions everyone - it's been interesting to hear what everyone else is using.

[Earth Mother Party Bags]

I use Dr. Bronners with my e cloth and e mop. They are great.:p

[indicaj01]

For household cleaning I use Soap Nuts for all sorts of things from washing clothes to the car.

50g Soapnut shells
1.5 ltr Water

Boil the shells in the water and concentrate the liquid down to 750ml-1ltr

This makes a fantastic liquid wash suitable for hand washing clothes, doing washing up and plenty more. Put into a spary bottle and use to clean surfaces, or mis with distilled vinegar to wash tiles and remove light scale.

In my usual wash I use 7-8 soapnuts in a muslin bag with a little ecover bleach (non chlorine based) for more heavily soiled clothes.

Havent used fabric conditioner for 3yrs now because it gunks up fibres in fabric. Instead I use distilled vinegar with a few drops of lemongrass essential oil (because I like the fresh scent). Towels are left fuffy, soft and absobent, and colours last far longer than previously.

I dont use Grapefruit Seed Extract anymore, having seen research papers which state that it is likely that the antibacterial benefits are due to the added high levels of undisclosed preservatives which are sprayed on the fruits etc prior to processing.

Ecover have a 5 yr rolling rule in respect of chemicals they use and animal testing.
This means that the manufacturer only excludes ingredients that have been animal-tested within the last five years. This is not a fixed date, so an animal tested ingredient may be excluded one year (because it falls within the ‘last five years’ bracket), but included the following year (when it falls outside this bracket). By using this method, the manufacturer is making no clear commitment to reject animal testing and is still profiting from and perpetuating animal testing. The only difference here is that the company delays buying that ingredient for five years. This would make little difference to most suppliers and the industry as a whole, as they know that companies like this may not buy the ingredients today but they will buy the ingredients eventually.
Not entirely ethical for such a highly regarded ethical? business IMHO. It is for this reason that the Vegan Society had to ask them to remove their Vegan Society logo from their products.

[Alistair]

If anyone fancies sending tester detergents to me I am willing to give them a go? We do a fair amount of washing(to say the least!) and I am looking at ways to improve environmental efficiency in a "dirty" business.

I've written a little blog post on my thoughts regarding drying and washing - it didnt mention detergents it was more to do with energy efficiency. I would be interested to hear arguments about it (I've not done research it is just my thoughts)

Here is the link:

http://thebedmakers.blogspot.com/2007/11/green-discussion-for-dry-cleaning-and.html

Being green in my opinion isn't necessarily just using natural products, as there are many hidden factors - packaging, manufacturing energy expended, efficiency of machine etc etc

In my opinion to truly understand how "green" we are we must look at the overall picture and alternatives, obviously offset against practicality and cost.
For example, is doing two loads of laundry in a small inefficient machine but using a natural detergent "greener" than doing one large load in an efficient machine but using normal detergent? My guess would be not.

That said, I am open to try any product which is cost effective and does the same job but in a greener way, or be able to offer a greener alternative that may not be as cheap, but available for customers who care.

Alistair
www.thebedmakers.com (http://www.thebedmakers.com)

[gibby]

we are also finding the dryer balls & eco washing balls are worth the outlay

the dryer balls mean we can knock 15 mins off the usual cycle in the dryer per load

the washing balls are doing the job well but havnt worked out the cost per wash yet - but our customers are buying em repeatedly
here (http://www.alternativesoles.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=AS&Category_Code=LP)


also the car magnets - that I was very skeptical about, work a treat
saving 15 to 20% on my car & 15% on trucks
seem to pay for themselves in 2 or 3 tanks worth
here (http://www.alternativesoles.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=AS&Category_Code=EZ)

discount code vb23 at the checkout gives 20% off for the next 2 weeks

G

[Cornish Steve]

also the car magnets - that I was very skeptical about, work a treat
saving 15 to 20% on my car & 15% on trucks
seem to pay for themselves in 2 or 3 tanks worth
Would you mind explaining how a magnet can improve the fuel efficiency of a vehicle? That defies all the science I've ever learned.

[gibby]

well - to keep it simple

magnets around your fuel pipe or gas pipe cause the fuel to burn better
it energises the molecules or something to give better performance, a cleaner burn and therefore less is needed

I used to have a great big £400 thing on a van years ago which made a £200 difference years ago & I know they are used on planes by the forces

they are also used on water pipes to stop limescale build up

another thing I saw & didnt believe was the insoles for your shoes - they aid healing & have been used by the Chinese for many years

they do a test where you have 2 ppl - & try to push one persons arm down as they resist
the person then stands on the insoles & you do it again & amazingly the person has more strength

there are sleep systems, pillows, jouint packs etc all helping healing

I nearly bought some magnets for the car from eco flow but they were £65 each & you need a pair for them to work properly to create the best magnetic field for the petrol or diesel
when I saw the twin pack for £25 we tried em & got a 20% increase immediately on a long run - even though I was really pushing it
normally I get 15 - 20% around the doors on short runs - according to the onboard computer in the car


you can also get magnets for water now as its supposed to be far better for us

hope that helps


G

[nichep]

I use ecover or tesco's eco-friendly cleaners. Green Mum do you stock dryer balls and are the effective? I run a nappy laundry company, would they be effective in an industrial dryer?

[gibby]

im sure its been mentioned before but ecover is being tested on animals, so not really green/ethical

Bio D is better as its made in the UK not tested & gets better results

G

[Cornish Steve]

magnets around your fuel pipe or gas pipe cause the fuel to burn better
it energises the molecules or something to give better performance, a cleaner burn and therefore less is needed

I used to have a great big £400 thing on a van years ago which made a £200 difference years ago & I know they are used on planes by the forces

they are also used on water pipes to stop limescale build up
I'm sorry, Gibby. I want to believe some of these things, but the explanations just don't make sense. Can you point to any studies that back up these claims?

[gibby]

if you do a search on the net there is lots of info - as magnets have been used for a long time

looking the blurb with the boxes -

the device uses the principle of magneticaly induced ionisation...........
goes on to mention - the use of magnetic fields improving the performance of combustion was reproted during the 1940's - US air force used it on the Mustanf aircraft & due to its success it was then used by the RAF on the pitfire & Hurricane aircraft

Type of testing: Catalyser car: Yes
Producer: Daimler Benz, Code number 2 : 0708
Type: 124, Code number 3 : 353
Building month/year: 03 / 1992
Mileage (km): Before:103824
After:: 105987
Measuring results:
Engine Status
Oil Temperature: 60,0 °C
Ignition point: --
Higher speed(rpm): the same higher speed has been used for before / after
Higher speed (rpm): 2300
Lambda: 0,970 at initial stage/ ( 1 ) 1,030 ( 2 ) 1,009
Idle speed (rpm): the same idle speed has been used for before / after
Idle speed (rpm): 820
Feedback control system: --
Fuel consumption in litres per 100 km
Before: 13,2
After: 11,0
Date: Before - Testing without MagnoFuel: 11.01.1999
Date: After - Testing with MagnoFuel: 15.03.1999

there is load s more stuff and I dont know what you would count as proof as Im not an engineerbut have a look on the net.

cheers

G

[Cornish Steve]

Thanks for the detailed response...but I still don't get it. :|

I read the following statements from the product description:

Simply clips to you engines fuel line...As the fuel passes by the magnet it increases the combustion of the fuel...[helps] cars on vegetable oil or bio diesel as it helps the oils to burn much better, reduces some of the known problems & helps starting
How can magnets surrounding a fuel line increase the 'combustion' of the fuel? Combustion is a chemical reaction, which has nothing to do with electromagnetic fields. Plus, combustion takes place not when the fuel is fed to the engine but when it's actually in the cylinders. Why would the presence of a magnetic field help problems with starting an engine?

Another factor is the impact of a magnetic field on other components. We're told all the time to keep magnets away from computers because of the effects of magnetic fields on electronic components. Wouldn't it be risky to fit a magnet inside a car where today there are many computerised parts?

Sorry to sound so skeptical but, if there was really something there, don't you think the car manufacturers would build it into the structure of the car in the first place? As with many products like this, I want to believe it's true, but something just doesn't click.

[lauraxmarie]

In our home our cleaning cupboard consists of white vinegar, lemon juice, tea-tree oil, bicarbonate of soda and ecover laundry detergent. Despite having a baby and 3 dogs our house is lovely and clean :) Simple is best! (oh and cheap! lol)

[lauraxmarie]

Gibby wow I had not heard that about ecover testing on animals! :( We use ecover, but not any more! Thanks for the info

[gibby]

back to the magnets - sorry for the rest of you

Although I don't have any to hand but there is lots of non mainstream proof that magnets effect the healing of the blood & energy in the body & effect many other factors such as fuel, as does temperature.

Strong magnetic fields will damage chips but the magnets in question are not electro and the two fitted about 8cm apart are supposed to create the correct field to work without causing any problems

it does state in the instructions that it will not cause a problem with the warranty of any vehicle & as I have recently bought a brand new Skoda Roomster with a 3 years all included job I did ring them and ask, the answer was that they could not do any harm and wont effect it.

I know the fuel firms (bp & shell) do use magnets on some of their main fuel lines to stop it clogging up in the pipes & fans of used & fresh veg oil in engines also swear by them to keep the stuff flowing in cold weather

all I can suggest is to get on the web & do some research. Many ppl love them and find good results - like we did, some are skeptical & say they wont work.
Others have built businesses on them for health & car/van benefits with eco/bio flow

Im not here to convince you - I know they work, we sell lots of them every month with lots of positive feedback & we are looking for more magnetic products to add to the range - as long as they are not at silly prices

magnets are funny things - just look at he results of the heaven & hell chamber experiments

G

[nichep]

Gibby,
Thanks for the info on Ecover...I'm going to get in touch with the m for further info. I checked the packaging and it says against animal testing. Very confusing...

Do you know where I can get Bio-D in large amounts wholesale?

Nicole

[gibby]

the vegan society - http://www.vegansociety.com
have more info on it

when Ecover filled out the forms to have the vegan society trademark logo they told a few fibs & stated they didnt test on animals

turns out they have now admitted the stuff is tested on rabbits blood - from farmed rabbits & aquatic life too.

There are alot of us who feel really cheated over this as we have been buying it for years

Bio D can be found in most good health food shops
for wholesale try SUMA as they do it in 5kg packs - delivery is free over £250 I believe - they do other stuff too in that area
there are other firms but it depends where they deliver to

there is also clearspring - made by the Faith In Nature people
everything we ahev tried of their is excellent & far better quality than the nasty stuff from P&G, Unilever, garnier etc who are still testing on animals


hope that all helps

G

[Cornish Steve]

Im not here to convince you - I know they work
And I don't mean to sound unduly harsh, but this is the problem. As you read through this thread and a number of green websites, you see the same basic statement: "Well, of course, I have no scientific proof, but my customers swear by this product." The truth is that those customers are often idealogues who are willing to pay extra for something labelled green.

The issue, at least as I see it, is how to bring green products into the mainstream.

- Ensure there's no price premium so that many (non-green) people will try them out.
- Ensure there's no reduction in quality or effectiveness so the value proposition is not compromised.
- Use independent research to back up the claims of 'fringe' products and hence win some credibility.

If you could point to one or two credible reports from patently independent third party organisations (e.g., Cambridge University), the product would take off, your website would take off, and your business would be booming. Until that happens, magnets to improve fuel efficiency will fall into the same category as magnetic bracelets, for which ads have appeared in local classifieds for many decades.

I may sound cynical, but I'm really trying to give people a reason to buy green. "I know they work" just won't cut it.

[gibby]

all good points but to be honest we are moving plenty of them, getting lots of feedback & then repeat orders come from those
as we have so many products we dont have that much time to push one product

for me the thing has to work for me or have a benefit before I would list it on the site.
I know we sell alot of vitamins & minerals & some reports say they are a waste of time but alot of others say the opposite
sadly this usually boils down to who does the reports or testing.

I used to work in very specialized health products and often saw them knocked - especially by drug firms to then see the same product release as a drug a few years later by the same firms

I suppose we have to go with our gut feelings and on the results we get ourselves - if it works it works


G

[Cornish Steve]

for me the thing has to work for me or have a benefit before I would list it on the site. I know we sell alot of vitamins & minerals...I suppose we have to go with our gut feelings and on the results we get ourselves - if it works it works
And there's nothing wrong with that. From a practical perspective, who am I to sound critical when you are making money from your business? I suppose I'm thinking longer term: How can more people be persuaded to consider green products? Will you be forced to play in a specialist market, or could you grow into the mainstream?

[Gill]

Hello Steve
Sorry, disappeared for a while, very busy - still boiling tapioca as I type (s'ok, takes a while). I have tried to find research conducted without bias, in all honesty it is far more difficult than I first imagined, look more closely and indeed there seems to be a slant. Undeterred, my search shall continue. Have asked for more help from my local Business Link as I fully understand and agree with you, this can only help my business, which I am glad to say is really going well. We are currently undergoing Soil Association certification, anyway, by the by. I wanted to simplify things, forgive me if I overdo it as I am often prone to do. This is bound to be long winded, something else I am prone to (as if you didn't know that by now!).
So, your son asks for an apple - do you give him the one grown in the orchard/ in the garden/down the road/in the county (or state fairdo's)/country or one that has been shipped in thousands of miles, more than likely by air and more than likely to have been sprayed to prolong its life, before we get on to the growth hormones used to make it 'appear' perfect. Where do you think these chemicals go? At one end they go into the soil and waterways, the environment - at the other end they go into your son. I am not saying that these are right or wrong - and yes this is but my humble opinion - but forget green issues, forget all of that surely, this is plain and simple old fashioned common sense and I go back to what I have said all along - it is responsibility and education. Explain to your son where the apple came from - take him to see the tree, orchard, grower - cannot be done if your G delicious has been shipped to you from France, or South Africa - well of course it can but that would really be quite an undertaking!
The body digests, or tries its utmost to, everything. Eat a grain of sugar, your body will digest it, the beef dripping I have used this evening to make shin beef strew will soon sit nicely on my hips. Similarly the products we apply to our skin are absorbed, similarly the products around us in the air that we breathe are taken in by the body. If the components of these products are synthetic the body can't 'digest' them, at best they are pointless at worst - well we simply don't know - that is my problem. Why do companies use synthetic - its cheaper, it lasts longer, it adds perceived value.
I will continue, again just my opinion and I am not having a go at all Steve - have to go and stir though or the tapioca will stick!
Looking forward to your response, I have really missed this!
Gill

[Cornish Steve]

So, your son asks for an apple - do you give him the one grown in the orchard/ in the garden/down the road/in the county (or state fairdo's)/country or one that has been shipped in thousands of miles
It depends on many factors. Did the local farmers take care to protect the crop against disease and infestation? I've eaten too many so-called organic apples that contain worms or are beginning to rot. Are the apples from overseas, being of a different variety, more tasty? If so, my son may prefer them. While I agree with your basic premise, I don't rule out eating fruit from overseas. In fact, I wouldn't have access to many fruit if I ate only local produce - and that would soon become boring. :)

There's no harm in being sensible and not adding unnecessary chemicals. On the other hand, many chemicals are used for good and healthy reasons.

I am not having a go at all Steve
I know, and I look forward to your posts. Thank you for your well-reasoned arguments.

[Soapnutter]

We are also just trying out soapnuts for washing clothes

G

Yay!
There's a reason I'm Soapnutter yunno .....:D