Changing attitudes

[Gill]

I think that this is a wonderful forum (UKBF) I still feel fairly new but have received so much help and advice, more than worth the membership fee. Thank you for this new area.

Anyhow, I wanted to ask other 'green' business owners whether or not they have seen a change themselves in peoples attitude to being green. I know the media is really responsible for raising the profile - have you personally made changes and if so what?

Have you any advice on convincing people to switch to using greener methods, adopting a greener lifestyle? In my experience people are so very excited about who we are and what we do but are reluctant to switch from their commercial brands as 'they have always used them' and 'know what they are' - I beg to differ!

Hope this section of the forum is well used I will certainly frequent it.
Gill

[RayB]

I would say it simply comes down to the age old "carrot and stick"

And this is where politics gets it wrong - with a green "stick" (eg extra bin collection/council tax)

So, offer customers a "carrot" to go green and all will be well.

The minute a "stick" (extra charges) are mentioned, people will (rightly) run a mile.

Sell the cost benefits by all means :)

[sirearl]

I disagree ,sadly the majority will not change without either a reward or laws forcing them to comply.

Earl.

[fridayteam]

Have I seen a change in peoples attitude to being green?

Yes, I think there are more sceptics out there ready to dismiss the whole 'green' thing than there was ten years ago.

Change starts with the individual though, so the best anyone can do is to quietly inspire others to think on a deeper level.

[Gill]

Hello again
Thank you for your replies - I have to agree that there is an enormous amount of scepticism - but why? Why more so now?
As regard to the carrot and stick - yes but aren't the carrots so obvious, limiting further damage on precious resources, behaving responsibly - people run a mile from sticks (extra charges) well genuine greener alternatives are often more expensive - initially, but long term???
Not trying to create an argument here, simply frustrated -
I would dearly love to inspire people to think on a deeper level but wouldn't know where to begin. Goodness I sound quite miserable don't I -sorry, appreciate your comments, glass of wine time - organic/fair trade of course - and yes perhaps it cost a little more.......

[fridayteam]

Why more scepticism? Good question! Perhaps the time/money element has something to do with it.

Enjoy your wine and keep your chin up. You know you are inspiring others just by having a business name like you have. (Would like to know more about your business. Have website?)

You might be interested to read this (http://retailstrategist.wordpress.com/2007/08/12/the-ethical-retailer/). (Self plug at end, link posted here to expand conversation, not intended as self promotion. Old blog post, sorry).

[creospace]

I think it's a generational thing - the younger generations on the whole are less resistent to change and future generations will see it as normal practice and will wonder why older generations didn't do it.

[Cornish Steve]

Maybe we should draw the analogy with a new technology. What brings about change from an older technology to a new technology?

- Financial benefit from cost savings
- Greater convenience
- Increase in perceived value
- Acceptance by more and more people

The most relevant in the case of the environment are increasing acceptance in society and, potentially, cost savings (and the latter is usually the result of the former).

While someone suggested a carrot and stick approach, there's no way there should be a stick. It's not right, in a free society, for government to try and impose different behaviours on citizens. There must be a compelling argument that convinces us to make different choices. Government interference, rightly, would cause a backlash and ill will. That's no way to try to sell a product or an idea.

So, view eco-business just like any other business. You have to give customers a good reason to choose you.

There are some important implications to this:

1) If environmentally friendly products are more expensive, they may not sell. Price is very important. An exception to this might be a product that appears to be safer. I read yesterday that mothers in the US are paying 8x the price of a regular baby's bottle in order to buy one that is free of certain plastics (phthalates? I forget). The increased safety of our children is a great motivator - especially when the product price is low.

2) If a majority of people in society don't really care, you're looking at a niche market. We've seen this many times before, so it's important to build a business plan that is realistic.

[RayB]

Steve, your post is absolutely spot on.

I was the one who mentioned "carrot and stick" a few posts back - but in context I was saying you need to offer a carrot as the stick will not work :)

[green mum]

I think it's a generational thing - the younger generations on the whole are less resistent to change and future generations will see it as normal practice and will wonder why older generations didn't do it.


This is very true, I hope my daughter will grow up with a natural awareness of green issues. Not that I let her watch much TV (!) but cbeebies have quite a few programmes about looking after the planet. Recycling, reducing waste etc. They are very subtle but effective.

I find it really hard to convert people to cloth nappies until you mention how much money they will save per child - this is the best carrot I think!
Hopefully the next generation will use cloth nappies as the norm (much like they did 40 years ago) especially if councils continue to offer incentive schemes.

[Cornish Steve]

I find it really hard to convert people to cloth nappies until you mention how much money they will save per child - this is the best carrot I think!
This is one where you really have to educate, though. Studies have revealed that the use of cloth nappies can have a bigger impact on the environment than disposables, because of the detergents needed to clean them. I'm sure there are ways around this, but you need to educate your customers with hard facts to override any concerns they may have.

Once that objection is overcome (and the matter of personal convenience), then you're right: saving money is a very big motivator.

[green mum]

This is one where you really have to educate, though. Studies have revealed that the use of cloth nappies can have a bigger impact on the environment than disposables, because of the detergents needed to clean them. I'm sure there are ways around this, but you need to educate your customers with hard facts to override any concerns they may have

Yes, it's a tricky one. I try to cover it in my website as much as possible but it's much easier to educate someone actually face to face.

Where in Cornwall are you from John? I'm a Liskeard lass myself.

[RayB]

This is one where you really have to educate, though. Studies have revealed that the use of cloth nappies can have a bigger impact on the environment than disposables, because of the detergents needed to clean them. I'm sure there are ways around this, but you need to educate your customers with hard facts to override any concerns they may have.

Once that objection is overcome (and the matter of personal convenience), then you're right: saving money is a very big motivator.
Steve, that is why I'm gonna like this new section, where we can debate both sides of the issues.

The end result being a chance to make an informed choice (after at least having the debate in the first place, which was less likely without this new section)

A few have been concerned they will not get a balanced answer to their question in this new section, for fear of the contributors being too one sided - a fair concern.

I trust these early theads make any such fears vanish.

BTW - not having children, I have never had to consider nappies :)

[Cornish Steve]

A few have been concerned they will not get a balanced answer to their question in this new section, for fear of the contributors being too one sided - a fair concern....I trust these early theads make any such fears vanish.
Which is exactly why I'm here. I hope you don't mind. :)

[green mum]

This is one where you really have to educate, though. Studies have revealed that the use of cloth nappies can have a bigger impact on the environment than disposables, because of the detergents needed to clean them. I'm sure there are ways around this, but you need to educate your customers with hard facts to override any concerns they may have.


Incidentally, some recent studies have been shown to be flawed - they don't take into account that many people wash at just 40 to 60 degrees (which is all that is necessary). They also don't take into account the fact that many people now have A rated washing machines which are very energy efficient. Regarding laudry detergents, you only need to use a third of the amount that you would usually use. Less is more in this case. If you use too much detergent it will affect the absorbency of the fabric and it will start to retain a nasty smell!

Of course ideally you would use an environmentally friendly detergent such as Ecover, or use Eco balls which are about as environmentally friendly as you can get.

I very rarely use a tumble dryer to dry nappies, line drying is the best thing to do as the sun naturally bleaches them. If I do tumble dry then I use dryer balls which reduces drying time by 25%. You should NEVER use fabric conditioner on nappies as this will also affect the absorbency.

I want to add that the main reason I decided to use cloth on Lily was for health benefits rather than environmental - disposables are full of chemicals, gels and plastics and cloth, for me is a much nicer alternative. Seeing her nappies drying on the line gives me a lovely warm feeling...knowing that I'm doing something for her and for the environment.

I'm guessing anyone reading this is in the 'green room' because they already have an interest in this subject so apologies if I'm preaching to the converted!

[Cornish Steve]

Where in Cornwall are you from John? I'm a Liskeard lass myself.
My dad sings in the Liskeard Male Voice Choir - and loves it. I grew up mostly in Saltash but also in Sheviock; I have cousins all over (Tideford, Menheniot, Polbathic, Dobwalls, etc.). Other relatives live further afield (Camelford, Launceston, Probus, Porthscatho, Falmouth, etc.). I can trace my family tree back to a wedding in 1603 - at the wonderful old church in St. Just in Roseland.

PS - I'm Steve. My signature quotes lines from the Cornish bard, John Harris (sorry for the confusion). If you're not familiar with him, I urge you to learn about him. Sadly, none of his books are in print, although his work appears in some collections (I've looked into the possibility of republishing his books and will do so when my new business is viable). The Cornish library in Redruth has a complete copy of all his works. Being from the heart of Cornwall, you'll appreciate very much his writing.

[green mum]

[quote=goldctrsteve;339656]My dad sings in the Liskeard Male Voice Choir - and loves it. I grew up in Saltash, but I have cousins all over (Sheviock, Tideford, Menheniot, Polbathic, Dobwalls, etc.). Other relatives live further afield (Camelford, Launceston, Probus, Porthscatho, Falmouth, etc.).

Its a small world steve, I expect you know some of my family as 'Bennallick' is a proper cornish name that no-one forgets! My dad lives in Menheniot now...

[RayB]

Which is exactly why I'm here. I hope you don't mind. :)

My view is the opposite of minding, that was the whole point of asking for this section :)

Steve, I am delighted you are joining in, we need to discuss all sides at all times - brilliant :D

[RayB]

Of course ideally you would use an environmentally friendly detergent such as Ecover, or use Eco balls which are about as environmentally friendly as you can get.

Hi Green Mum,

It would be great if you could start a thread to explain "eco balls" and detergants - cos I have not got a clue about such things (being a bloke) and I would like to consider the benefits

[Gill]

Ta de de daaaa!
I have been asked to create two more recipes by one of my existing customers - one I can do and have the third batch here ready for her to test (we have been using it) and it is.........laundry liquid.
If you are feeling brave and you are in the UK I am happy to send a bottle for you to try - it is made from completely natural ingredients - really concentrated so you will only need to use a tiny amount (5ml per wash - little more in hard water areas) Any takers?
This will not come to you in final packaging - not up to that stage yet, really would love your comments and feedback though.
Sorry - I am not selling here - giving away - is that ok or have I broken some UKBF rules?
Gill

[Cornish Steve]

Its a small world steve, I expect you know some of my family as 'Bennallick' is a proper cornish name that no-one forgets! My dad lives in Menheniot now...
It's fascinating to trace the roots of Cornish families. Many names emanate from the Cornish language (clearly yours does, and so does mine), and we've always been a close-knit community.

It's interesting to trace Cornish roots around the world too. Living in the US, I occasionally come across people with Cornish names - and they don't know it. As you ask them about their family, you find yourself in places where there is extensive mining - so a former cousin Jack was at the bottom of their particular hole.

Sorry to digress, but I must tell you this story. I was on a business trip to Indonesia. Since I would be there for a Sunday, I asked friends in advance if they knew of any churches I could attend. Someone living in another Indonesian city had heard of an Anglican church called 'All Saints'.

Jakarta is a huge city of many millions of people. On the Sunday morning, I walked down to the lobby of the hotel at which I was staying (in a business district, not in the centre) and asked the porter if he'd heard of All Saints church. He didn't answer but grabbed my hand, pulled me out the front door, and pointed across the street. The church was right there.

I walked across the busy street and arrived at the church at about 7:59; the service began at 8am. The speaker that morning was a guest - a missionary from Australia who had spent a couple of years in east Africa and was on his way home. He had the same Cornish last name as I have. Afterwards, it became clear that our families originated from the same part of Cornwall and that we were probably related.

So, I moved from Cornwall to the US; his family moved from Cornwall to Australia. I was on a business trip to Indonesia; he was travelling home from east Africa. Completely unexpectedly, we both ended up in the same place at the same time in the middle of a huge city in the world's largest Muslim country. Talk about coincidences. :)

Anyway, back to the topic in hand....

[green mum]

Hi Gill

Count me in please!

Ray - I'll put some info on here about eco balls etc. later this evening. Men do need educating in the laundry department I have found!!

[RayB]

Ta de de daaaa!
I have been asked to create two more recipes by one of my existing customers - one I can do and have the third batch here ready for her to test (we have been using it) and it is.........laundry liquid.
If you are feeling brave and you are in the UK I am happy to send a bottle for you to try - it is made from completely natural ingredients - really concentrated so you will only need to use a tiny amount (5ml per wash - little more in hard water areas) Any takers?
This will not come to you in final packaging - not up to that stage yet, really would love your comments and feedback though.
Sorry - I am not selling here - giving away - is that ok or have I broken some UKBF rules?
Gill

Hi Gill,

Start it as a new thread, I'm all ears (or balls?) I'm :D confused

Detergant is definately a separate thread though :D

[Cornish Steve]

Men do need educating in the laundry department I have found!!
Laundry? What's laundry?

[RayB]

Laundry? What's laundry?

I often wondered about this myself :D

[Gill]

Gosh - got carried away with the trumpet blowing - your commercial brand of laundry detergent, be it liquid or powder, contains a lot of man made chemicals. Some of these chemicals are really quite frightening if you study them and some of the effects are not known, they are, of course, cheap to produce. Along with surfactants (reduce water tension so aid with the 'wetting' process) foaming agent, there are optical whiteners (bleach - like) and preservatives and of course perfume. Where does this all go - onto your skin - if it goes onto your skin, it goes into your skin, if it contains chemicals, over time and use, so will you. You got me - I am quite passionate about this! Haven't mentioned where else it goes and other possible effects. Sorry if I am ranting.
Gill

[sirearl]

Laundry? What's laundry?

He was a rock singer in the seventies.

"Long John Laundry ":p :p

Earl

[RayB]

Gosh - got carried away with the trumpet blowing - your commercial brand of laundry detergent, be it liquid or powder, contains a lot of man made chemicals. Gill

Start a thread - so we can debate it.

I'll be in the shower :D

[Rhyl Lightworks]

To get back to the original question - how to change people's attitudes - should the government stay out altogether? I ask this because recently I put up a new light fitting for a customer, and as is my habit, I tried to persuade her to have an energy saving bulb in it. It would have cost an extra 51p on a £45 job, and saved about £50 over 6 years. She would have none of this, giving her reason as 'she didn't believe anything the government says, and they were promoting the use of energy saving bulbs'.
Barrie

[Cornish Steve]

...should the government stay out altogether? I ask this because recently I put up a new light fitting for a customer, and as is my habit, I tried to persuade her to have an energy saving bulb in it. It would have cost an extra 51p on a £45 job, and saved about £50 over 6 years. She would have none of this, giving her reason as 'she didn't believe anything the government says, and they were promoting the use of energy saving bulbs'.
It's not right, in a free society, for government to try and impose different behaviours on citizens. There must be a compelling argument that convinces us to make different choices. Government interference, rightly, would cause a backlash and ill will.
I rest my case. :cool:

[green mum]

recently I put up a new light fitting for a customer, and as is my habit, I tried to persuade her to have an energy saving bulb in it. It would have cost an extra 51p on a £45 job, and saved about £50 over 6 years. She would have none of this, giving her reason as 'she didn't believe anything the government says, and they were promoting the use of energy saving bulbs'.
Barrie

She must be bonkers, either that or she can't add up

[Gill]

She must be bonkers, either that or she can't add up

Perhaps both but really - that is what you are up against!

[Claire B]

Gill, your business sounds fantastic! We have just returned from the Lake District and probably drove right past your house on several occassions!

Have you thought about approaching the companies who rent holiday cottages to see if they will help promote your product? (starting in the Lakes of course! :))

Also, my sister uses cloth nappies, can I pm you her details as she would be interested in trying out the detergent if you are still looking for takers. Infact I would love to have a go myself - could you give you lots of feedback on its powers of removing chocolate and red wine stains :D :D

[Gill]

Hello Claire
Thank you for your kind comments - you certainly picked a good time to visit here - the colours are amazing. I love this time of year here, far preferable to Summer when it gets so busy. I hope you had a lovely time.
I am happy to send you samples of the laundry cleaner, please pm me the addresses and I can send out tomorrow.
I am talking to two more companies who rent out holiday cottages, I do already supply one company (several cottages) with all of their cleaning products. They are really happy and offset the costs (hands up I know it is expensive) by selling my products to guests who stay with them. One comment, repeated over and over by the guests, is how using the products make them feel, they buy and take the products home with them to re-create their holiday feeling. Another plus is, by leaving the products in the cottages, the guests do clean as they go!
If you are visiting the area again do get in touch (anyone) I can let you know great places to visit which you might not be aware of - in any case I do make a lovely cup of tea!
Gill

[Claire B]

Hi Gill, I will pm you my address and my sisters. Thank you so much :)

We stayed at Graithwaite and had the most amazing drive each day between Graithwaite and Hawkshead as the autumn colours really are breathtaking as you say (the most vivid orange).

The only problem is that if you get side tracked by the wonderful view, you ended up running over the bloody pheasants which get everywhere and have zilch road sense :D

We did Helm Crag and Buttermere, and also drove over Hardknot pass and WryNose pass to Wastwater. If you have a car with a decent sized engine I 100% reccommened this car journey to anyone. It is the most thrilling ride ever. On the way back, the clouds had descended so we actually had to drive up and over the pass through cloud at which point my daughter got car sick and we had to pull over. We have told her that she is the only person in Britain to have actually thrown up inside a cloud :D :D

Anyway, we had a fantastic week (even though I took out all the paintwork on one side my car thanks to a dry stone wall and an SUV driver who should have known better!!)

Will certainly pop by for that cup of tea next we come up xx

[AdamJ]

Maybe its just people are sick of being bludgeoned with 'green' issues and hence are fed up of hearing about it and ignore them? Its a fine line between encouraging and lecturing - even the title of this thread crosses that line - "changing attitides" which clearly implies "we have the answer and everyone else needs to agree with us". To be clear, I am pro-green and spent three years studying conservation pollution control but I have always had a big problem with the green movement for its tendancy to just wind people up and hence harm its own cause.

The mixing of 'green' and 'ethical' issues is also a problem for communicating the message. 'Green' is reasonably clear if all the facts are to hand, 'ethical business' is a much more woolly subject and it doesn't help when its mixed in with green issues.

[dave_n]

Personally at the end of the day I think it boils down to cost:

You have to encourage people to be green and not force them into it thro taxes and the like.
Charging people per bin of rubbish WILL NOT encourage them to recycle more.
People will then associate green with charges and then it has no chance.
On the whole I think most people really dont care that much about green issues...most recycling had been forced upon people thro the ways that their waste is collected.
I wonder what my council tax charges are based on when we are forced to do the job that the env services have always been paid for!.
We have fortnightly waste collections here and I can tell u that the beach has more and more bin bags on it than ever

[Gill]

[quote=AdamJ;342120]even the title of this thread crosses that line - "changing attitides" which clearly implies "we have the answer and everyone else needs to agree with us".

I named the thread but I assure you it was not my intention to imply that I had the answer or that everyone ought to agree with me, not at all - it did get us debating - thats good!

[GiftGirl]

Oooh I'll try it! Sounds great. I'll PM you my details.
:)

[GiftGirl]

Ta de de daaaa!
I have been asked to create two more recipes by one of my existing customers - one I can do and have the third batch here ready for her to test (we have been using it) and it is.........laundry liquid.
If you are feeling brave and you are in the UK I am happy to send a bottle for you to try - it is made from completely natural ingredients - really concentrated so you will only need to use a tiny amount (5ml per wash - little more in hard water areas) Any takers?
This will not come to you in final packaging - not up to that stage yet, really would love your comments and feedback though.
Sorry - I am not selling here - giving away - is that ok or have I broken some UKBF rules?
Gill

Oops I meant in reference to this.

[AdamJ]

[quote=AdamJ;342120]even the title of this thread crosses that line - "changing attitides" which clearly implies "we have the answer and everyone else needs to agree with us".

I named the thread but I assure you it was not my intention to imply that I had the answer or that everyone ought to agree with me, not at all - it did get us debating - thats good!


;) I hope it didn't come across as having a go, it just summed up what I was trying to say nicely.

Another good example - take religion. If some wild-eyed bible-clenching lunatic sidles up to you in a town centre and starts chanting psalms about hellfire and damnation, anyone's first instinct is to run away, the only question is how fast. If someone talks calmly, and listens to both your questions and views, then you spend longer listening to them, they can get their message across better and you're more likely to accept parts or even all of it. It comes down to, as you say, entering into discussion which means both sides listening, rather than the approach which is often taken of 'I need to persuede you of the correctness of my views'. If the green movement can adopt more of the latter and less of the shrill former it will do itself a world of good.

[Gill]

Hello Adam
I do hope that you didn't think I had scurried away tail between legs, I am back now, ready to fight err, I mean debate or should I say discuss!
It isn't any surprise at all that people are becoming disheartened or even frightened when there are so many conflicting pieces of advice.
Yes there are people who are so passionate about what they do and believe in that they feel the need to shout it from the rooftops, ram it through your letterbox, blog - anything really to get 'their' message across. Change makes people feel uncomfortable and forced change more so, understandably.
Many of the environmental groups do indeed appear sanctimonious and if you aren't concerned or in agreement with them, you're wrong. Immediately people are disgruntled.
I think, albeit longwindedly (you wouldn't allow that in Scrabble), what I am saying is - I completely agree.
Thank you Adam, got my wild eyes on - now where is my bible, heck where is the town centre!
Gill