I had to giggle - SEO quotes

[quikshop]

I wonder if anyone else has had a similar experience...

I recently contacted several of the page 1 and 2 UK SEO companies from Google to get quotes on some SEO work for my web site.

The general concensous is that they don't get out of bed for less than 1k's worth of work, and I had one side-splittingly funny quote of £65,000 to optimise for one primary keyword!! I think the guy took offence when I laughed, couldn't help it :redface:

Another just sent an email with a break down of prices totalling 1.5k without any explanation of what they would do.

Putting aside the mind-melting arrogance of nearly all those that responded, I wonder what the forum community SEO bods think to this. Was I justified to laugh? Does good SEO work really cost thousands?

Interestingly about half thought that Page Rank was vitally important, and the other half dismissed it completely. What are your thoughts on this?

[Chris Jones]

Hi Dave,
I would have to agree that good SEO is not cheap, but i would say that as our prices are generally 1-3k per month but unlike one of the qoutes you got any proposal includes a full breakdown of all the activities we would carry out over a 6 month period.
I relation to page rank, my opinion is that it is important but is only one small part of the algorithms used to determine where a site will appear on the SERP's.
Best regards,
P.S Would you like a quote? Ha ha

[PeteYoung]

Agree to a certain extent with what Chris says, tbh, have a fair idea who the 65K figure would have come from as well.

You can get SEO for £250, but I would suggest its a bit like cheap PR, cheap advertising etc ... namely cheap.

Thats not to say spend a fortune on SEO - just if you spend a little more you tend to get a specialist rather than a bedroom operation. We like Chris would tend to charge you significantly less than the 65K figure you have been quoted, with a full 12 month overview of work to be undertaken.

As regards Page Rank, imo more to be used for reference purposes rather than reliant on.

Feel free to drop us a line, if you wish to discuss further

PS. Chris say hi to Simon for us

[RayB]

I think honestly those raking highly for "SEO" are paying for links to get there in the first place, thus filtering down into their prices frankly!

I also think the SEO industry is the new "Gold Rush" - lots of Cowboys and wild prices.

Also, if an SEO Company gives a quote without looking at any "technical" barriers that might be holding back a site in terms of SE friendliness I would be worried!

FWIW - I have done my own SEO, and recently retained an "SEO Guru" to underpin my activities (I will not say who as this has been requested and honoured).

Of course there are only 18,000 printing companies in the UK - so my SERPS are meaningless as it is not very competitive :)

[PeteYoung]

Personally, I am one of those that has nothing against the use of paid linkage - which I know is a contentious point within the search industry. If you are willing to pay for the linkage - then fair do go ahead - there are still ways for other people to do it without employing such tactics - word of mouth/social media/linkbaiting etc.

Personally I think your comment = "I also think the SEO industry is the new "Gold Rush" - lots of Cowboys and wild prices." is slightly off kilter. I have my guesses who the company is, and I would suggest the price suggested is not indicative of their true pricing, merely they consider it is 'too small' for them, and thus an inflated price may just deter further unnecessary work - however if the client goes for it - well quids in.

The above comment merely shows there is still some work to be done to advise the general public of SEO and how it works/benefits etc. Yes , Jo Blogs can do his own SEO, however Jo blogs can also do his own PR. THe difference is a professional can (probably better use) should do a better job.

At the end of the day, you get your cowboys in anything. Its the job of an SEO to advise and manage expectations from the start

[creospace]

I think there is 2 distinct variants of SEO but they both come under the SEO banner and have very different prices but often they are confused for one and the same.

One is the sexing up of code soup websites.

The other is the lengthily process of managing the SEO, getting quality inbound links, getting relevant articles out there etc. This is the one that takes the time and money.

But in both instances the individual should tell you what they intend doing. Sadly the second still carries an element of suck it and see and mystery and people can be blinded by science.

We will offer both services on our new site but the latter will be undertaken by an outsourced SEO expert, we have proven ourselves in the former + all new sites come SEO ready :)

Not sure if that was of any help but might push the discussion on a little.

[RayB]

The above comment merely shows there is still some work to be done to advise the general public of SEO and how it works/benefits etc. Yes , Jo Blogs can do his own SEO, however Jo blogs can also do his own PR. THe difference is a professional can (probably better use) should do a better job.

Fair enough, but unfortunately much of the "advise the general public" goes on here - to the detriment of the SEO industry.

And sorry, it is full of sharks and con men (the industry, not this Forum) - so we all have to pick the bones out of that as potential customers.

Finally, SEO is generally put across as some kind of "dark art" - well it is not IMO :)

[sirearl]

Have to agree with Ray

SEO is very logical process and really quite simple.

I reckon I could teach anyone with a command of the english language SEO to a reasonable standard in a week or less.

so i guess the guys who are quoting 65k are looking for very wealthy business's,who would possible gain a lot more from SEO in there profits or profile.

any of the large banks or financial institutes out there can PM me :)

Earl

[SteveGibson]

I wonder what the forum community SEO bods think to this.

My opinion: it's a free country and people are entitled to price their services at any level they want to.

Steve

[mattk]

I think that largely you get what you pay for. You can get SEO for £150 a month, but for that you are likely to get five hours (assuming £30ph) of one persons time per month. Of course, there is alot you can do in five hours. At the other end of the scale for £10000 a month you could get several very experienced people working on your site full time, with a wealth of knowledge from an established company behind them.

What's better, spending £150 a month on SEO and generating £300 of new business, or spending £10000 a month to generate £5000 of new business?

[RayB]

I think the point is that the SEO industry is flawed, a downfall of it's own making.

I hear quotes of £150 per month through to £10,000 per month.

For what exactly?

An what happens when the algo is changed?

SEO is a corrupt industry - and I feel sorry for the honest SEO's who are trying their best

[sirearl]

I think the point is that the SEO industry is flawed, a downfall of it's own making.

I hear quotes of £150 per month through to £10,000 per month.

For what exactly?

An what happens when the algo is changed?

SEO is a corrupt industry - and I feel sorry for the honest SEO's who are trying their best


oooooha as Steve says its a free country ( well in theory ) and one can charge what you like and if someone is willing to pay ,there's no corruption.

advertising agencies charge a fortune,barristers,and many other proffesions come to mind,so why are SEO's different?:|

Earl

[Tin]

I'd like to pick up on Earl's comments.

Seo "is logical" but often only after someone shows you the light so to speak. Like playing golf, it looks so easy until you find you've just hit the ball through some pub window.

To me. it's all about words because that's all that matters to every major search engine. It's not a black art and I accept, that's what some would like you to believe but it is more about genuine words which form the topic or theme of a page and then those themes then go on to re-inforce the overall theme of the site concerned. There's no point in trying to trick the engines if you're in it for the long term, understanding what they're seeking is one of the real routes to your success and playing it down the line will make sure you're there in the long term.

For sure, there's cheap options available and that's fine if you want cheap returns but like everything else we've come to expect in life, paying a fair price for a fair day's work will benefit you in the end.

Just thought I'd get that off my chest and also say that Earl and I have more in common than he may think, except that I teach seo in 2 days whereas he takes a week.;)

Ray

[sirearl]

Just thought I'd get that off my chest and also say that Earl and I have more in common than he may think, except that I teach seo in 2 days whereas he takes a week.;)



well Tin I have always thought we had a bit in common as it seems we have both had a tadge of success at this SEO malarky,so one would assume we both go down similar avenues I did say" competent in the english language ";)

As fo 2 days don't exaggerate we both know a few hours will do

I just did not want to say that in case it caused an uproar :)

But it did take us a good few years of study to get to the stage where we can teach it.

If anyone wants to come to my one on one seminar the price is £10,000 per hour.and that will be the biggest bargain you will get in this life :D

Earl

[Tin]

I'm in Earl, that's a steal at the price ;)

[RayB]

The last 2 or 3 posts are exceptional - thank you Earl and Tin.

I'm saying no more :)

[DotNetWebs]

...,barristers,and many other proffesions come to mind,so why are SEO's different?:|

Earl

I think the difference is that the true professions have recognisable qualifications, licenses to practice and are regulated by governing bodies.

With the greatest respect to anyone here, anyone can call themselves an SEO and they are not accountable to anybody (except the customer who may have a difficult time proving any breach of contract etc.)

It’s very difficult to sort the wheat from the chaff (especially in terms of return on investment)

Regards

Dotty

[sirearl]

I think the difference is that the true professions have recognisable qualifications, licenses to practice and are regulated by governing bodies.



But the more important point is does that make them an honest and honourable person ?

There is as yet no formal qualification in SEO so us poor old souls are a bit stuck on that one.:D

as for measuring the return on investment good SEO produces from probably a few thousand to millions dependant on what level and type of business you are dealing with


Earl

[sandpetra]

"one side-splittingly funny quote of £65,000 to optimise for one primary keyword!!"

I take it your products not retailing at £100,000, then :)

[sandpetra]

"I think the point is that the SEO industry is flawed, a downfall of it's own making.

I hear quotes of £150 per month through to £10,000 per month."

• House Prices Vary
• Plumbers Costs Vary
• Car Prices Vary
• Dog prices Vary
• ladies Of The Night Costs Vary

..... seo companies' prices vary. That's life.

[sirearl]

"one side-splittingly funny quote of £65,000 to optimise for one primary keyword!!"

I take it your products not retailing at £100,000, then :)

£100,000 come on Shaun lets get serious you cheapskate :D


http://www.studdsey.fsnet.co.uk/house.htm

Earl

[sandpetra]

Nice to see you've not croaked it old man :)

[kimmrunner]

At the other end of the scale for £10000 a month you could get several very experienced people working on your site full time, with a wealth of knowledge from an established company behind them. ?

Bet you dont.

If it is anything like most of the other professions - the day you pay a retainer - you get one knowledgeable person or partner looking over the shoulders of a couple straight out of college who have little more idea than you do, and the company dog booking hours to your account too!

My advice is: NEVER pay per month for anything. Pay for tangible and specific work done proposed and detailed in advance - and veriified by specific activity time bookings. It is called accountability and the only way to avoid getting totally fleeced

[Mark-UK]

I have been doing a lot of quotes recently for seo and ppc services I provide. One guy kept asking for more info, and then more, and then more, I sent a few emails back a week later but no reply, so I called him and he said my prices for seo and ppc were "ridiculously" expensive", I charge £95 per day!

So I told him to get out of the career he is in if he thinks thats expensive and that he needs to think about what he wants, he basically told me it was a joke and after spending hours putting together info for his every request im sorry but I get insulted if he can't be bothered to send back a simple email.

[RayB]

so I called him and he said my prices for seo and ppc were "ridiculously" expensive", I charge £95 per day!

Unfortunately Mark you get this in business - Jokers like this do not understand about "investing" in their business!

[Mark-UK]

Well to be honest his websites weren't that great and in the markets they were in that's half the battle, it would have taken a lot of seo to get them high up.

I also think im too honest, I work as a freelancer so it's me doing the work I don't pass the buck on to someone else and I spend ages answering all questions asked. Maybe the client then goes off and tries it themselves.

I do know I've had a lot of wasted enquiries recently all expecting something for nothing and I really have nothing better to do then sit here answering 50 questions to be then told they will think about it.

[PeteYoung]

I think the point is that the SEO industry is flawed, a downfall of it's own making.

I hear quotes of £150 per month through to £10,000 per month.

For what exactly?

An what happens when the algo is changed?

SEO is a corrupt industry - and I feel sorry for the honest SEO's who are trying their best

I think thats a very sweeping an ultimately incorrect perception of SEO as a whole.

Like SirEarl (Morning Earl) has said, you pay lots of money for barristers and offline advertising so why not online, and as regards your point on the algo change. Good SEO should be based on a number of different facets, not purely focussed on one particular tactic (which as you say can and probably will leave you at the whim of the algo.

At the end of the day, if you go down the route of advertising/virals/pr etc, you get nothing guaranteed. Why does SEO come in for this.

At the end of the day, the MAJORITY of SEO's do a good job, and an honest job, and go far beyond merely optimsing your website.

[RayB]

I think thats a very sweeping an ultimately incorrect perception of SEO as a whole.

It is a fact that there are many good reputable SEO's it is also a fact there are unfortunately many black hats too - plus a heady mix of "smoke and mirrors" and BS banded about the industry - so I stand by my sweeping statement.

I feel sorry for businesses who inadvertantly hire a black hat and see their sites trashed in the long run

Like SirEarl (Morning Earl) has said, you pay lots of money for barristers .

The big difference here is that barristers and most professions are regulated in some way.

[PeteYoung]

It is a fact that there are many good reputable SEO's it is also a fact there are unfortunately many black hats too - plus a heady mix of "smoke and mirrors" and BS banded about the industry - so I stand by my sweeping statement.

I feel sorry for businesses who inadvertantly hire a black hat and see their sites trashed in the long run



The big difference here is that barristers and most professions are regulated in some way.

At the end of the day Ray, it is worth bearing in mind. Legal Services in some capacity have been around since year dot, and are far more established.

Search Marketing is in its infancy in comparison and evolving at breaknet speed. Regarding regulation, we are moving in that direction (referance to the recent IAB search marketing charter), however people like yourself have to remember, search marketing has had all of about ten years to evolve and thus we as an industry arent quite as far 'evolved' as other sectors, but we are getting tehre.

Less of the corrupt type comments would help mind you.

[lockie]

I feel your pain as in the past i've wasted a lot of time driving around measuring up and giving quotes to receive zilch.
By putting starting prices on my website i have cut out a lot of the timewasters or people who are unable to afford the products.
Its all about perception too, i actually increased the quality calls by putting "we are not the cheapest" but the product is excellent.

I notice you give prices for your ppc services but not the seo, so maybe it may help with some starting prices to weed out the ones who waste your time perhaps ?

I get loads of calls from people saying so and so can do it cheaper, well better use them then as obviously cheap is what you want is my first reaction but thankfully i dont say that. I explain its like buying a car some people are happy with a cheap run around where as others prefer something a bit better.You get what you pay for in most instances.

[sirearl]

It is a fact that there are many good reputable SEO's it is also a fact there are unfortunately many black hats too - plus a heady mix of "smoke and mirrors" and BS banded about the industry - so I stand by my sweeping statement.

I feel sorry for businesses who inadvertantly hire a black hat and see their sites trashed in the long run



The big difference here is that barristers and most professions are regulated in some way.

I have to agree with you Ray :( There are thousands of SEO campanies out there trying to get there slice of the cake,and logic says there are only 10 top spots on most search engines so they can't all be that good:|

not sure my logic is correct on this ?

The problem of course is sorting the wheat from the chaff and I have every sympathy with business's trying to find good honest competent SEO companies.

It would be nice if SEO's could be regulated e.t.c but have no idea how this could be possible.:|

Earl

[RayB]

I agree with you Earl! Back to OT - given all the above I think than you can only base a decision on which SEO to work with based on personal reccomendations and proven track record.

Also, I think all SEO starts with solid on page techniques.

[sirearl]

Also, I think all SEO starts with solid on page techniques.

Rubbish it starts with getting the Genie out of the bleeding bottle :rolleyes: :p

Earl

[PeteYoung]

I agree with you Earl! Back to OT - given all the above I think than you can only base a decision on which SEO to work with based on personal reccomendations and proven track record.


Completely agree - but I would add its amazing how many people dont do this and base a decision purely on price etc, without fully doing their homework on the organisation doing the work

[RayB]

Completely agree - but I would add its amazing how many people dont do this and base a decision purely on price etc, without fully doing their homework on the organisation doing the work

Precisely - that I why I get so vociferous about SEO around here - in the hope that its disuades people from making the potential mistake of going with an unknown - which may prove to be great - or may prove to be a very expensive mistake

[SteveGibson]

It would be nice if SEO's could be regulated

Personally, I think the regulators would probably be loudmouthed jackasses who are good at lobbying, but not much good at SEO.

Then you'd have to jump through hoops to learn how to do SEO badly so you could pass their silly little exam.

It's a bit like google giving out Adwords "qualifications".

Google set up adwords campaigns for people (for a fee) and these campaigns are widely mocked by the "names" in the PPC world.

(Perry Marshall - “[my customers] know that Google can set it up for them and it’ll suck money out of their wallet. If I coach them how to do it, it gets set up right.”)

Yet, because their techheads designed the software, they're allowed to give out accreditiations for something which is, when you get down to it, just direct marketing.

So, while I agree it's hard to find a trustworthy SEO company, qualifications are only as good as those who invent them ... and I can't see a top SEO getting involved and giving away his secrets so they can be taught to the SEO industry at large.

Steve

[sirearl]

Steve You mean like barristers,and all the other professions

It would seem that the chance to wield a little power always attracts the wrong type,hence why good government it a contradiction in terms :D

well I agree but thought it might give the public a bit of trust.

after all they do go to PC world to buy there computers :D

Earl

[RayB]

I agree, a regulatory body is a bit of a pipe dream and a qualification probably useless

The problem is, if you choose the wrong SEO unwittingly (a Dark Grey or Black Hat) they can do as much damage to your business as getting an embezzler to do your book keeping.

Choose wisely folks

[pay-on-performance-seo]

Interesting thread....

I know the company I work used one of the big SEO companies (dont want to say their name... offices in London and Brighton) before they got an inhouse SEO team and some of the things they say about them are not complimentry. Words such as lazy, expensive come to mind.

I personally would not go with one of the big SEO companies as they seen to spend more time keeping their site on page 1 of Google then working for their clients and their prices are very expensive.

[www.t6c.co.uk]

I agree that many SEO companies have not a clue. But thats marketing in general.

I do not agree that a quote of £60,000 is excessive. It depends on results. You cant think small if you want to suceed big !

I have a client that has paid £90,000 for one single years SEO on one single site. Now that client gets several times that in new business so he is happy.

I doubt someone charging £250 a month would of come near getting the same results.

[creospace]

I doubt someone charging £250 a month would of come near getting the same results.

Why? Surely it depends on the keywords you are competing for? Customers have paid me less and I've got those kind of results (not in a 'I do seo' capacity I may add.

It is a relative thing so very hard to make any absolutes.

[www.t6c.co.uk]

I would suggest that if you generated £400,000 worth of business and charging £250 a month that I give you a job !!!

I must explain that some clients, in my direct experience, in particular large ones require a high level of service in terms of meetings and reports. In most months just the cost of meetings (car, petrol, tax, time) would be in excess of £250 per client. You can find yourself attending board meeting the other side of the UK and expected to be on hand. On of my sales guys manages 5 customers and thats his full time occupation.

I understand that small business has different requirement and would be happy with telephone based support and so on but larger companies are different.

[DotNetWebs]

I agree, a regulatory body is a bit of a pipe dream and a qualification probably useless

The problem is, if you choose the wrong SEO unwittingly (a Dark Grey or Black Hat) they can do as much damage to your business as getting an embezzler to do your book keeping.

Choose wisely folks

I agree with this too.

My previous reply to Earl was meant to illustrate how difficult it is to classify a 'professional' SEO. Comparisons with Barristers etc, have no relevance.

Regards

Dotty

[www.t6c.co.uk]

And unlike Barristers some SEO's like been paid on results !

[am:pm graphics]

I had one side-splittingly funny quote of £65,000 to optimise for one primary keyword!!

...........:eek:

[simonr]

Frighteningly easy to pick the wrong SEO. For example, if I wasn't a mean, cynical ******* I would probably have gone with one of the SEO companies that spam me with offers of free reports and so on.

Interestingly, one of them even had a list of my target keywords included in the email - but hadn't bothered to check that for those very words I'm already on page one! :)

I love the idea of SEO by results as at least one person here does!

S

[c2webdesign]

Let's face it Google's alogorithm can change tomorrow. Can a SEO company guarantee that it won't - no. Can a SEO company guarantee that their work is full proof and will not be affected - no.

We carry out SEO, yes. Have we obtained good placements for good keywords, yes. Can we achieve first page results for generic words where the search results are in excess of 1 billion, yes. Do we charge £65,000.....not on your nelly. What are our secrets....well....:)

People often think the more expensive the SEO work the better their results will be. Not always true.

SEO is relatively easy. It does take time, this is what - in fairness - charges should be for.

Dave - out of curiosity what was your keyword to the search engines to find the UK SEO companies. Just SEO or SEO UK, UK SEO etc....?

Thanks,

[NiSiWi]

when looking at the cost you should also be considering return

i know plenty of companies that pay £30K-£60K for organic search marketing results because its cheaper than paying £70K for adwords!! and their website generates a £x00K in sales so its worth it for them

to get results takes time and companies need paying for their work - accept the cost or learn and do it yourself -it can take 6, 12 ,18 months to really see the results and to build the foundation

if your website does not provide a mechanism to allow it to pay for itself (directly or indirectly - sales or leads) in some way then dont bother with SEO

there are tons of so called "SEO" companies and gurus

the bottom line is - good SEO = good content and structure - has been and always will be

tweaking and optimising will move things only so far

the heavier the competition the more solid content you need

but SEO should be considered part of SEM or search engine marketing
because the design also impacts SEO and usability - no point getting people to your site and then turning them away ;)

[Chris Jones]

when looking at the cost you should also be considering return

i know plenty of companies that pay £30K-£60K for organic search marketing results because its cheaper than paying £70K for adwords!! and their website generates a £x00K in sales so its worth it for them

to get results takes time and companies need paying for their work - accept the cost or learn and do it yourself -it can take 6, 12 ,18 months to really see the results and to build the foundation

if your website does not provide a mechanism to allow it to pay for itself (directly or indirectly - sales or leads) in some way then dont bother with SEO


there are tons of so called "SEO" companies and gurus

the bottom line is - good SEO = good content and structure - has been and always will be

tweaking and optimising will move things only so far

the heavier the competition the more solid content you need

but SEO should be considered part of SEM or search engine marketing
because the design also impacts SEO and usability - no point getting people to your site and then turning them away ;)

Couldn't agree more!

[betterlanguages]

I think its like any industry, you need to shop around. Part of the problem is to be clear what you get for your money. More expensive doesn't always mean better. We've put in a lot of work on our own site, and are gradually working our way up the rankings without use of SEO, so far. I have no doubt that we can improve ranking with good SEO input, but I'm very cautious about who I'll use, and I'm not convinced by pay per click. We've got a lot of useful info out of Google analytics, and webmaster tools, and these are free services. If you do it yourself it isn't cheap though if you price in the time spent.

Would be open to sensible quotes from good SEO specialists who can show a good track record.

Hope this helps.

Mike

[sirearl]

I think its like any industry, you need to shop around. Part of the problem is to be clear what you get for your money. More expensive doesn't always mean better. We've put in a lot of work on our own site, and are gradually working our way up the rankings without use of SEO, so far. I have no doubt that we can improve ranking with good SEO input, but I'm very cautious about who I'll use, and I'm not convinced by pay per click. We've got a lot of useful info out of Google analytics, and webmaster tools, and these are free services. If you do it yourself it isn't cheap though if you price in the time spent.

Would be open to sensible quotes from good SEO specialists who can show a good track record.

Hope this helps.

Mike

Well you got a bit of a problem there.

you would need a site redesign and at least 150 optimizable pages to start getting in with the big boys IMHO.

Earl

[betterlanguages]

Well you got a bit of a problem there.

you would need a site redesign and at least 150 optimizable pages to start getting in with the big boys IMHO.

Earl

Thanks Earl, so clients like Mothercare, New Look and Weetabix don't really count? I'd be interested to know your views on why we need the site redesigned.

Kindest regards

Mike
http://www.betterlanguages.com

[sirearl]

Thanks Earl, so clients like Mothercare, New Look and Weetabix don't really count? I'd be interested to know your views on why we need the site redesigned.

Kindest regards

Mike
http://www.betterlanguages.com

You need to be able to present information to the search engines in a particular order .I don't neccessarily mean a graphical redesign.just the structure

Earl

[sirearl]

oops apologies belay that the structure is pretty good page copy needs sorting out.:)

what key words are you going for/

Earl

[WebPageOne-Solutions]

Quoting an SEO project normally requires a good level of analysis prior to producing an accurate cost.

This includes On Page and Off Page analysis.
Keyword Research
Market Research - Competition

I would normally provide a 12 month contract to the client, assuming they had a list of around 40 keywords, which provides a high level project plan and monthly charge.

The Client would receive a monthly report detailing what has been achieved and a list of the current keyword positions.

PageRank is a Nice mark for quality, but Unique Focused Content optimized with relevant keywords should always be a winning combination.

[PaulattheFranchiseFair]

Hi Earl does makes a good point, that hasn't really been covered here - ie. Site structure.

Lots of the big/medium SEO companies will happily come and provide a consultation and quote for work that needs doing, but implementing that work can be another thing. Their suggestions can be almost pointless if you need to rebuild the site to implement them...

Please bear this in mind when going ahead!

[Volusion]

That quote seems a bit ridiculous, you'd think they would qualify you upfront before getting to a number like that.

That said, a lot of it depends on what that SEO company is doing for you. Completely reformatting code to be more css driven is one thing. Entering in a few metatags is something else entirely. There seems to be a lot an SEO company cannot do for you such as posting on forums that relate to your industry.

[Mark-UK]

My method of seo is research, then research again, then research some more, I get to know the company, the industry, the online market in that industry then research some more, then agree with my client the keywords to target.

Then I start the onsite seo then once complete start the offsite seo.

Then it's onto ppc which is a whole new ball game, I've used my methods on various shopping sites and all have done extremely well.

[England-Villages]

Make sure whoever you choose they belong to:
http://www.seocertification.org/

[ScottB]

> SEO certification?

Lol been an SEO for 6 years and never heard of em! :P

> Re: Algo changes

Good SEO won't really be impacted by algo changes - those generally affect borderline SEO techniques which are good one day and not the next. An experienced SEO knows how far to push the boat out before there is some risk involved (and IMO SEOs shouldn't put client's sites in any form of risk at all).

> Re: Prices

SEO pricing is a bit mad, but keep in mind that a competent SEO can make a nice living from setting up affiliate sites, etc - that raises their pricing structure for consultancy (and puts many of the good SEOs way out the reach of the job market, meaning many larger agencies struggle to hire experienced SEOs).

On the flip side though, high cost isn't necessarily an indicator of quality - I've seen some utter crap passed off as SEO for big brands in the past. :)

Scott

[England-Villages]

> SEO certification?

Lol been an SEO for 6 years and never heard of em! :P

From their website:

The pre-eminent source of information, education, and certification assessment for the constantly evolving Search Engine Optimization (SEO) industry worldwide, SEOcertification.org is the industry's first vendor-neutral certification developed by professionals for professionals. We work with experts and industry leaders from the private and public sectors, including training institutions, academia and government, to develop broad-based, foundational exams that validate an individual's search engine marketing skill set. SEOcertification.org has an international reputation for integrity and attention to detail. It is the clear first choice of industry professionals throughout the world.



Certification is the public's assurance that an individual has met rigorous, peer-developed and reviewed standards endorsed by a national professional body.

SEOcertification has 3 distinct programs to suit your needs:

SEO Certified Professional
SEO Certified Company
SEO Certified Trainer

Displaying an "SEO Certified" logo on your Web site is a proven-effective way to cement your customers' trust. The logo can be linked to a page verifying the integrity of your business. As well, your customers will feel safe knowing they are backed by Search Engine Optimization Certification's dispute resolution services.

http://www.seocertification.org/

*****

[RayB]

Make sure whoever you choose they belong to:
http://www.seocertification.org/


With respect that is useless and worthless. Any fool can set up a "certification" company online. Easy money :rolleyes:

[sirearl]

SEO certification £10

special mid-week bargain 2 for the price of 1

includes unique logo for your site

recognized throughout the industry.

PM for wholesale prices

[PaulattheFranchiseFair]

Earl, if you're selling certifications, can I suggest you may want to purchase one of my certified SEO provider certifications to help your cause... :-)

[sirearl]

Franchise certification £10

special mid-week bargain 2 for the price of 1

includes unique logo for your site

recognized throughout the industry.

PM for wholesale prices

[Chris Kaday]

I have never experienced an industry where quotations, approaches and knowledge levels vary so much. I have a very simple ‘personality’ site with no more than 20 pages with little change in content, which those who visit it really like. I just need to get higher on Google for a very few search words. I have now got lots of relevant ones to choose from. I am not looking to generate masses of enquiries as I offer most of what I do for free and just could not give lots of questioners the attention they deserve. So far I have:
Received huge quote documents and 5 figure price tags which are just standard run offs of reports with no easy way to see what I would be getting and a low level of trust that they will deliver. They are also totally over the top for my small personal site
Had a very few highly valuable discussions with SEO people who really know what they are talking about. This has resulted in identifying some clear problems with my site - great! But these wonderful knowledgeable people have a way of doing business which does not work for me. I am not an ‘internet hobbyist’ and have no motivation to become one. I just want to write a cheque and get a result. That is not to say I will not contribute to the word strategy, content etc but this really is not something I want to invest my time in learning. If I had a large ecommerce site then it would be essential but I don’t.
Received proposals from consultants who offer only half the solution. They would probably get my attention if they actively partnered with someone who would do the work and offered a total solution. As it is 'the implementation is not my problem sir' approach just creates another stage in the process with me in the middle.
Accepted a very low quote and now realise the individual has low value/understanding to input, even at the first stage of word selection. My fault totally in making a poor section based on a very simple quote (great relief that) and low price.So here I am, no further forward except I have learned a lot about the subject of SEO and now have some definite things to fix and a better grasp of the search words I should use.

Maybe there is no middle ground between getting ripped off and learning it myself (sound familiar to anyone?) but hopefully a hero will emerge (hint hint) to move me forward at some point. Meanwhile it is a nice sunny day and I am going round London to flex the plastic. Always a good solution for anything I can't solve immediately he he

Chris Kaday

[WebPageOne-Solutions]

Chris, whilst your out and about, if your near a good book store grap a copy of Search Engine Optimization for Dummies (http://www.amazon.com/Search-Engine-Optimization-Dummies-Peter/dp/0764567586) - Author Peter kent.

Ignore the title. Its a very good read and will confirm some of what you have read here.

[sirearl]

Chris, whilst your out and about, if your near a good book store grap a copy of Search Engine Optimization for Dummies (http://www.amazon.com/Search-Engine-Optimization-Dummies-Peter/dp/0764567586) - Author Peter kent.

Ignore the title. Its a very good read and will confirm some of what you have read here.


I second that:)

from my point of view your business does not have enough meat in it for a poor old SEO like me :(

Give me a call when you start selling Ferrari's or Lambo's:D

Earl

[Chris Kaday]

Thank you for the suggestion which I am sure is well meant but the only use i would have for that would be to prop open my door on a windy day. I have little interest in this subject apart from the end result although I do recognize I need to understand the basic steps and issues which I now do. I am prepared to pay a fair commercial rate relative to the size of my site for someone who is really interested in me and the work, can identify the issues (some of which I now know!) and can fix them.

Chris Kaday

[RayB]

I think reading up and learning the basics of the subject is good advice, especially if you are going to outsource the work anyway.

The logic? - Well you will choose an SEO in a more informed way - and hoefully avoid choosing a bad one - by knowing what to look out for.

[Chris Kaday]

I think there is a difference between appreciating the basics and learning the basics. I already know the steps in the process. I have actually read a huge amount of the feedback on this site, had meetings with SEOs read lots of proposals and done an analysis of what people have been saying and identifying those suggestions and truisms which come up most regularly.

The quote I accepted actually made good sense and included the steps I was expecting. It was only when the SEO cane to do the work that I was dumped with the search word aspect. I only got some sense out of it from the string I put on here for which many thanks everyone.

Also no matter how much I read I could not have come up with the couple of errors which Ray immediately identified - he has been doing if for many years. It is not my understanding which is at issue here but the level of understanding and processes used by the SEOs and these are very different and difficult to determine until one gets into it.

I am also getting a bit sick of being 'wrong footed' on this subject every step of the way. It is I who need more understanding etc etc. I come from a world where we take responsibility for understanding what a client wants and providing a solution which will deliver that whilst possibly educating a bit along the way.

Chris Kaday

[Chris Kaday]

I think there is a difference between appreciating the basics and learning the basics. I already know the steps in the process. I have actually read a huge amount of the feedback on this site, had meetings with SEOs read lots of proposals and done an analysis of what people have been saying and identifying those suggestions and truisms which come up most regularly.

The quote I accepted actually made good sense and included the steps I was expecting. It was only when the SEO came to do the work that I was dumped with the search word aspect with no added value. I eventually managed to make some sense out of it from the thread I put on here for which many thanks everyone.

Also no matter how much I read I could not have come up with the couple of errors which Ray immediately identified - he has been doing if for many years. It is not my understanding which is at issue here but the level of understanding and processes used by the SEOs and these are very different and difficult to determine until one gets into it.

I am also getting a bit sick of being 'wrong footed' on this subject every step of the way. It is I who need more understanding etc etc. I come from a world where we take responsibility for understanding what a client wants and providing a solution which will deliver that whilst possibly educating a bit along the way. We do not expect a client to read the book which we should have read. There is only so far one can go before actually doing ti yourself and this I am not prepared to do - it does not matter that much to me in the big scheme of things.

I like the definition 'consultancy is the art of making the complex simple' and have always worked to that principal. SEO seems to prosper on the reverse of that.

Chris Kaday

[Mark-UK]

I'm amazed at the ignorance of some business owners who own online websites and scorn upon seo as a way of improving performance.

Seems once you get high up in a company you lose all sight of reality and the basics.

[Chris Kaday]

Who are these then Mark?

Certainly not me. No scorn here

I am thoroughly convinced of the benefits - just trying to get someone who knows what they are doing to deliver them for a reasonable sum

Also from what I have seen many SEOs do themselves no favours in the way they promote and quote their work.

Chris Kaday

[RayB]

Also from what I have seen many SEOs do themselves no favours in the way they promote and quote their work.

Chris Kaday

And therein lies the problem - SEO is about keeping abreast of the game - which often leads to secrecy - which leads to confusion and sometimes mis-information

[SteveGibson]

I'm amazed at the ignorance of some business owners who own online websites and scorn upon seo as a way of improving performance.

Seems once you get high up in a company you lose all sight of reality and the basics.

Huh?

I don't see where this scorn is.

I'm going to suggest that, if you find it hard to sell your service, then you should blame your service/marketing/selling, rather than blame your prospects.

Also from what I have seen many SEOs do themselves no favours in the way they promote and quote their work.

I agree.

I think there are 5 main problems:

(1) many of them shroud what they do in secrecy

(2) a lot of them are selling "I'll get lots of sites to link to you and google will love you for it" and, logically, that makes no sense at all (to someone who's not SEO-savvy).

"I don't get it, why should google love a site that gets lots of links? Especially when it's easy to create the links just because you want links?"

(3) Failure to give a convincing answer to "if the google algo changes so often, how can I be sure that my SEO will still keep working?"

(4) The failure to connect costs with benefits.

(5) The refusal to offer guarantees.

IMO, it's the failure to deal with those key issues that are causing prospects to walk away. You're asking people to buy a pig in a poke.

That's one of the things I like about Earl's approach: he takes away these risks from his clients, he only gets paid if he gets results ... and stops getting paid if the results stop.

(plus he's picking the right prospects to go after)

Steve

[ScottB]

Probaly the reason why I wouldn't trust your word that you are an SEO professional, if you've never heard of them.


England-Villages seems to have removed the comment now, but it slipped into my topic reply email notification first. There are no recognised SEO certifications - Adwords and Yahoo certification for PPC are the only things that even come close to certification.

Not only are SEOcertification.org unknown and unrecognised, I don't even recognise any of their members (http://www.seocertification.org/searchresults.php?bcat=Content%20Creation%20/%20Search%20Engine%20Copywriting)! Oh and it's worth noting that their member listing pages allow people to review the SEO company - the distinct lack of reviews is a good indicator of the popularity of the company and certification.

Perhaps they launched with a good idea, but they certainly haven't achieved the scope of industry recognition that is needed for most SEOs to even look at their site, let alone seriously consider the fee for certification.

Remember those award sites years ago - everyone could apply for an award and everyone would win and get to place a nice badge on their site. That was a link building scheme designed to take advantage of uninformed webmasters. SEOcertification isn't far off that.

So perhaps England-Village, you'd care to do some homework before you start publicly criticising people you don't know? God forbid I expect anyone to carry out the slightest due diligence, particularly when running along with the anti-SEO crowd, pitchfork in hand! ;)

------------

With regards the rest of the comments, I do agree there are problems with the industry and there's a huge disparity when it comes to services and pricing but that's just an unfortunate nature of the way things have evolved over the years.

There's so much money to be had online and an experienced SEO pretty much can hold the key the coffers. When you look to hire the services of a quality SEO (be it a consultant or an agency) you are approaching someone who could spend their time developing their own web properties for more profit and less time.

I wrote a blog post (http://www.fusednation.com/seo/is-the-uk-seo-industry-in-a-mess/) the other day about my take on the state of the SEO industry - I fully believe there should be some form of independant moderation of the industry, but every attempt I have seen in the past have been from groups and individuals with their own agendas and they haven't gone far to do much for the industry.

I'm one of the non hands on SEOs who do only consultancy and back to the original post in the thread, I'm also one of the people who charge a lot - I've got a clients on the books paying £50k+ pa. While this might seem like an insane amount, it has to be taken in the context of the work involved and benefit to the client (500k+ pages to be optimised, advanced SEO issues involved, 1 million+ visitors per month to the site, SEO effects offsetting the costs of other advertising channels).

I think key areas that small businesses need to educate themselves on are:

Do you need SEO in the first place? After you cost SEO services for your site, you should also be testing the water and see what difference it's going to make to your bottom line.
How important is your website to your business? If you are relying on web sales to keep your business alive, then some form of Internet marketing strategy is essential. No point complaining about essential manufacturing component prices after the fact - if you need them to survive, then you should have factored this into your business plan.
Are you just looking at SEO because other people are? Other people cold call, use print advertising and so on as well - doesn't mean it's appropriate for your business.
What level of input do you need? Small agencies will usually give you direct contact with technical SEOs. Large agencies will filter your enquiries through account managers (usually with low SEO knowledge). Consultants can be varied (but you usually get to deal with them directly).
Are you operating in a high risk / high competition market? Your 6 page debt consolidation website isn't going to do well. That market is highly competitive. More competition = more profressional website needed.
Are you neglecting other areas of website marketing? Many SEOs will happily take your money to optimise your awful looking site. You might get good rankings, but your conversions will suck. A good looking site is a low cost and helps a great deal. You wouldn't start a traditional marketing campaign when your shop hadn't been decorated? Why have loads of customers wander in and get a bad impression? Many people WANT SEO but NEED a good site to start off with.
Will SEO conflict with other areas of business? SEO can mean changing graphic or other design elements (eg URL structures, flash navigations, etc) - you may see conflict between your developers / agency and SEOs - are they (and you) capable of effectively managing this situation? Experience in SEO means that your SEO will be capable of making these judgement calls (newbie SEOs would just argue that everything needs to be done their way!).
Is your business prepared for increased enquiries? The main reason I don't heavily optimise my business site is that I'm just 1 consultant and wouldn't have the resources to deal with the levels of traffic ranking for SEO related terms would bring.A lot of the negatives that the SEO industry has is down to market factors and a lot of badly managed services and businesses. But there is also some blame on the client side - businesses who don't do their homework (on SEO and the company / consultant) and businesses who use SEO services but don't need it (and complain about the ROI) are both key issues here as well.

SEO is complicated - more akin to buying a house - you don't always go for the cheapest or the glossy sales pitch - you take your time, think about what you want, do your homework and make an informed decision.

Scott

[England-Villages]

England-Villages seems to have removed the comment now, but it slipped into my topic reply email notification first. There are no recognised SEO certifications - Adwords and Yahoo certification for PPC are the only things that even come close to certification.

So perhaps England-Village, you'd care to do some homework before you start publicly criticising people you don't know? God forbid I expect anyone to carry out the slightest due diligence, particularly when running along with the anti-SEO crowd, pitchfork in hand! ;)

Gee Scott, cheers for reposting.

I deleted my remark within about 10 seconds of posting it, because I thought it came over a little abruptly my point.

What gives with reposting it from your email inbox, what are you trying to achieve with that? (Hours later I add)

Streuth.:rolleyes:

[ScottB]

Just checkin' my mail and don't really take kindly to having my professional reputation taken into question when I was around to respond. :)

[sirearl]

I think there are 5 main problems:

(1) many of them shroud what they do in secrecy

I don't reveal the particular methods I use ,not that I think other SEO's don't use similar method's or that I am anything special ,just if I told everyone what I do I might be out of a job.

(2) a lot of them are selling "I'll get lots of sites to link to you and google will love you for it" and, logically, that makes no sense at all (to someone who's not SEO-savvy).

"I don't get it, why should google love a site that gets lots of links? Especially when it's easy to create the links just because you want links?"

I have never been big on links except from none competing authority sites

and have managed some pretty fair results without having thousands of links.I believe google likes sites that are authorities and have the respectability of age.

(3) Failure to give a convincing answer to "if the google algo changes so often, how can I be sure that my SEO will still keep working?"

I must have been very lucky but most of the sites I have done have never slipped in there rankings in spite of all the apparent algo changes,so a bit baffled by that one

(4) The failure to connect costs with benefits.

well my pitch is pretty low key goes like "I think we might be able to make a few quid so shall we give it a try"

(5) The refusal to offer guarantees.

Just Can't do that although something are a pretty sure fire thing based on investigation of the opposition.



Steve I can only give some answers based on my experiences and way of approaching things see in red.

as a footnote I think SEO is a far easier thing to learn than good web site design and hats of to many of the members on here .I just thank my lucky stars that I fell into an area that can help turn all there good work into a few bob for there clients and others,

Earl

[RayB]

One of your better posts Earl - mind you Steves was pretty good too.

But therein lies the rub - it is the (necessary) secrecy that confuses the average punter. Therefore, the risk of picking a bad one increases (and a bad SEO can sink your business)

[sirearl]

One of your better posts Earl - mind you Steves was pretty good too.



yes I wished Steve and a couple of others lived in kent.

with my looks and there brains we would have a field day ;)


Earl

[RayB]

yes I wished Steve and a couple of others lived in kent.

with my looks and there brains we would have a field day ;)


Earl

It is "their" brains :)

[SteveGibson]

Earl,

(1) many of them shroud what they do in secrecy

I don't reveal the particular methods I use ,not that I think other SEO's don't use similar method's or that I am anything special ,just if I told everyone what I do I might be out of a job.

As you work on a "results-only" basis, I think this doesn't really apply to you.

The problem is:

SEO: I can get your website high in the rankings
Prospect: How would you do that?
SEO: I won't tell you. You'll just have to take my word for it. Now, will you pay me a non-refundable up-front fee?

(3) Failure to give a convincing answer to "if the google algo changes so often, how can I be sure that my SEO will still keep working?"

I must have been very lucky but most of the sites I have done have never slipped in there rankings in spite of all the apparent algo changes,so a bit baffled by that one

This is something that really only applies to an SEO that's getting paid for their time, not someone like you that's getting paid for results.

(4) The failure to connect costs with benefits.

well my pitch is pretty low key goes like "I think we might be able to make a few quid so shall we give it a try"

Exactly, you're the only one who incurs the up-front costs (i.e. your time), not the client. So, you don't encounter this problem.

(5) The refusal to offer guarantees.

Just Can't do that although something are a pretty sure fire thing based on investigation of the opposition.

You offer a guarantee: "if it doesn't work, it won't cost you a thing".

In any business transaction, there's risk involved.

And the problem that most SEOs present is that they hand the lion's share of the risk to the client ... and the client often doesn't understand exactly what he's being asked to buy and has often heard enough SEO horror stories that he's uncertain and uncomfortable.

The way you work, you take on all the risk, so it's easier for the prospect to believe in your ability to get long-lasting results.

Steve

[England-Villages]

Just checkin' my mail and don't really take kindly to having my professional reputation taken into question when I was around to respond. :)

Oh get over yourself, don't be so silly.:rolleyes:

What a ridiculous reply.

[Mark-UK]

Who are these then Mark?

Certainly not me. No scorn here

I am thoroughly convinced of the benefits - just trying to get someone who knows what they are doing to deliver them for a reasonable sum

Also from what I have seen many SEOs do themselves no favours in the way they promote and quote their work.

Chris Kaday

These are people I have been associated with in my own personal business nobody on here, one company went into administration last year and after spending time in their company evaluating their online strategy I realised why, no idea, and when you present solutions they umm and arr over it, some people can't see the reasons for when it comes to online marketing, only the againsts.

Then there are those that want something for nothing and there's plenty about at the moment.

You pay for an seo for their knowledge, their skills, the skills of the tools they use, the ability to know where the resources are for all things seo, their ability to research keywords and phrases that people search for, their ability to understand where and how to get the information the client needs and to research the new methods of advertising and present these options to the client.

Good seo and ppc is an accumilation of many different small factors not one or two factors.

[sirearl]

Steve I was speaking figuratively if our competion knew what I did it might dent me piggy bank.

your other points are very valid.My only advice is to try and find companies or individuals who work on a similar basis to me.

I think a lot more SEO are realizing that a long term income from a site is a far better return than a few thousand up front,and I may be shouted down but is probably a lot better long term for any web based business,except the really big boys with deep pockets.

That is not saying there are not some excellent SEO guys out there,its just so hard for the lay person to choose one.

but of course my business model can not be used for every site.I have to make the decision as to whether the business is a goer,so would probably turn down 9 out of 10 if not more.

Web site owners would tend to think there site and its products are the next best thing to sliced bread and they may be,but the question is can they put a few bob in the piggy bank.

I beleive there are some guys on here who do risk and reward.

probably the best course for a start up site is PPC to test the water.

Earl

[Reflections]

hi,
It is the biggest truth that good seo never can be cheap why? frankly speaking seo contains lots of activities and these activities require man power, so that the seo company can mange the seo activities effectively. if you are looking for a cheap seo then you can not get a fruitful result in the search engine because of lacking seo activities. the seo company can not afford that much result within a little amount. but this amount should not be a abnormal amount for only one or two keywords

before you go for any seo companies be sure to know what the seo company is going to offer within the money you are spending.make every thing crystal clear and then sign up the seo contract.

Hi Dave,
I would have to agree that good SEO is not cheap, but i would say that as our prices are generally 1-3k per month but unlike one of the qoutes you got any proposal includes a full breakdown of all the activities we would carry out over a 6 month period.
I relation to page rank, my opinion is that it is important but is only one small part of the algorithms used to determine where a site will appear on the SERP's.
Best regards,
P.S Would you like a quote? Ha ha

[quikshop]

My opinion: it's a free country and people are entitled to price their services at any level they want to.
Steve

Absolutely agree Steve but it doesn't stop my involuntary giggling when I'm met with such an ludicrous quote.

I'm inclined to agree with an earlier reply, it was probably more the case my business is too small for them to get out of bed for so lets throw him a monster quote and if he bites we're quids in attitude...

But that was the other main point, the arrogance of these companies who try to spin a web of mystery surrounding SEO when some of the most effective SEO 'tricks' are actually very straight forward but time-consuming.

SEO is the new gold rush. There are lots of 'players' out there. Most of those I contacted came across in a similar vein to the London marketing agencies - all wide-eyed and chemically induced brain-storming sessions with lots of designer denim and savill-row shirts :rolleyes:

[Chris Kaday]

The length of this string and many others on the same subject show that the SEO's have a significant disconnect between them and their audience. Of course you can blame the audience - lack of knowledge , understanding etc. but to grow any market it is the suppliers who need to educate if they are to relieve more and more prospects of their cash. Unfortunately with SEO many prospects are so desperate for that front page that they just buy irrespective of the clarity of the quote and the price. As the market matures as every one does those the clarity and quality of proposals will change - the prospects understanding will also grow which means they will be more knowledgeable ask more questions and be more selective.

Chris Kaday

[quikshop]

The length of this string and many others on the same subject show that the SEO's have a significant disconnect between them and their audience. Chris Kaday

A good point Chris, when I asked for SEO quotes from these companies I did not specify exactly what it was I wanted to achieve with my web site, I was very general with my aims, and yet I was still bombarded with quotes and dictations of how obviously better they are from everyone else - almost a one-size SEO package fits all which can't be right.

I think this is where the smaller SEO companies / experts will benefit from being able to adapt their service to suit their clients and tailor their service appropriately.

[Chris Kaday]

If they don't ask questions then they are not really interested in you and if they are not interested in you they cannot do good SEO for you. It all starts from understanding your business and audiences and you either need to tell them very clearly or they need to ask. I have always given written briefs for marketing services and I write them for my clients too, but most potential suppliers never read them so they get bombed out immediately.

Chris Kaday

[sirearl]

If they don't ask questions then they are not really interested in you and if they are not interested in you they cannot do good SEO for you. It all starts from understanding your business and audiences and you either need to tell them very clearly or they need to ask. I have always given written briefs for marketing services and I write them for my clients too, but most potential suppliers never read them so they get bombed out immediately.

Chris Kaday

Spot on Chris to do good SEO you need to know every nut and bolt of the business you are dealing with,and in my case profit margins e.t.c .this allows me to be competative in the market place for the products we sell.

For this reason I will only take on business's that are within a certain reasonable traveling distances from my base.

Earl

[Reflections]

For Better SEO solutions contact www.orisysinfotech.co.uk. It will provide you affordable solution in both on-page and off-page optimisation. I am telling from my own experience. This organisation improved my site PR and Business as well as ROI.
I really like this organisation and its friendly client services.

[Chris Ashdown]

One thing that suprises me here is no mention of the web site being primary to sell to the public, This has got to be the biggest challenge to the web owner, SEO can bring in more customers but they wont buy if the site is poorly designed

A big problem is also that you have no idea of what the SEO intends to do to your site, it could all be great quality SEO or alternativly be outlawed tactics that latter down the line will ruin the site once Google and others find out, how do you know?

[deviltronics]

If you want someone to do SEO for you I think the best thing to do is get them to write you a mini weekly report of what they have been doing to your site.

I am currently looking for an SEO and with my search I am requesting a mini weekly report of what work has been done. Not only will this show how well your money has been spent, but if you know the coding of your site, like I do of mine, you can actually check if the work has been done properly. It also allows you to go and do your own research of what the SEO has done and you can question it.

The only reason I require this is because I have been done over twice now with SEO's who say they are doing work, but really have they done anything, not really. Results achieved is a good thing, but only if work is done the right way. You don't want your pride and joy to be black listed by google now, do you?

Paying an SEO is great thinking the work will be done, but most of the time you really are left in the dark as the customer.

[Pet Nanny]

Dave, unlike most people on this forum I work with animals and websites as SEO is Chinese to me. However, I joined a couple of forums, and my website now regularly achieves 1st page on google. That is a DIRECT result of advice and help from this, and another forum.

I do not have anywhere near that kind of budget for marketing, but I always recommend people who have helped me, and offer my services free of charge should they ever require them. That's the power of networking.

Nina
ninasnanniesforpets.co.uk

[Reflections]

Your web site is very good in SEO point of View.

[uk-internet-marketing]

I agree that SEO will cost
but it all depend were you go and who you believe

[betterlanguages]

I agree that SEO will cost
but it all depend were you go and who you believe

I think one of the biggest issues with SEO is keeping site content fresh, and adding to it. This isn't necessarily about SEO, simply good content management.

cheers

Mike
www.betterlanguages.com

[RedEvo]

I think one of the biggest issues with SEO is keeping site content fresh, and adding to it. This isn't necessarily about SEO, simply good content management.

cheers

Mike
www.betterlanguages.com (http://www.betterlanguages.com)

This is VERY true. A lot of our SEO work is actually keyword research and content creation.

d

[BadCompany]

I attended a Search Engine Optimisation Course back in August for a ridiculously cheap fee. I would recommend this course to anyone with a business website, it was an all dayer course so they had to overload us with info on the day, but got away with an SEO handbook(which has become my bible) and a certificate which is a good look for my clients when they visit. This course changed my life and the way I do my business, I would attend it as well if I were you and had the time. I would rather organically cultivate SEO than pay ridiculous amounts of money to achieve whatever it is we are searching. Since the course in August my page rank has moved up twice now and still rising. If you want more info on the course please don't hesitate to contact me. Follow the link for details of the next course, there is one in December and one in January:

Regards

Mike

[RayB]

This is VERY true. A lot of our SEO work is actually keyword research and content creation.

d

Blogs are darn useful for this - I have well ranking product pages which I do not alter, and a blog for continually adding new, quality and on topic content. (The blog is picking up useful "long tail" search traffic as well)

[betterlanguages]

I attended a Search Engine Optimisation Course back in August for a ridiculously cheap fee. I would recommend this course to anyone with a business website, it was an all dayer course so they had to overload us with info on the day, but got away with an SEO handback(which has become my bible) and a certificate which is a good look for my clients when they visit. This course changed my life and the way I do my business, I would attend it as well if I were you and had the time. I would rather organically cultivate SEO than pay ridiculous amounts of money to achieve whatever it is we are searching. Since the course in August my page rank has moved up twice now and still rising. If you want more info on the course please don't hesitate to contact me. Follow the link for details of the next course, there is one in December and one in January: http://www.blazmedia.co.uk/news.php?view=detail&id=105

Regards

Mike

I've had a similar experience. We're based in the East Midlands, and the E-business club has organised SEO courses at low/no cost, which have been invaluable. Its not necessarily all about doing it yourself, it also helps in finding a web designer or SEO company, because you know better what to look for. We've made a lot of improvements to our site since I went on the course, and we generate a steady stream of enquiries. One thing I've learnt is that good SEO takes time and effort. We've targeted the Google organic results, and are very pleased with progress so far.

Kindest regards

Mike
www.betterlanguages.com (http://www.betterlanguages.com)

[sirearl]

I think one of the biggest issues with SEO is keeping site content fresh, and adding to it. This isn't necessarily about SEO, simply good content management.

cheers

Mike
www.betterlanguages.com (http://www.betterlanguages.com)

I Don't agree,most important thing is to have is highly relevant content on your site.A frequent change of content may help your site be spidered more often.

But no way does frequent change of content help improve your rankings:rolleyes:

Think about it ?:|

Earl

[Chris Jones]

I Don't agree,most important thing is to have is highly relevant content on your site.A frequent change of content may help your site be spidered more often.

But no way does frequent change of content help improve your rankings:rolleyes:

Think about it ?:|

Earl

I'll agree with Earl on this one.

[RayB]

I Don't agree,most important thing is to have is highly relevant content on your site.A frequent change of content may help your site be spidered more often.

But no way does frequent change of content help improve your rankings:rolleyes:

Think about it ?:|

Earl

I Disagree (unless I am mis-reading your post)

Dont mess with pages that already rank well, but do add new pages (content) on topic to the pages that already rank highly

[betterlanguages]

I Disagree (unless I am mis-reading your post)

Dont mess with pages that already rank well, but do add new pages (content) on topic to the pages that already rank highly

I agree re adding pages, but don't agree that you should leave current page content alone. I'm not talking about change for changes sake, but about gradually improving the copy, and refreshing pages which can start to look tired, this isn't only about SEO, its also about having an attractive and readable site for human readers. Improving crawl rate at the same time, has to be win/win.:)

cheers

Mike
www.betterlanguages.com

[ken_uk]

Yikes, I visited the link to blaz media's site, I would be wary of going on a course ran by them... Keyword stuffing galore on the bottom of that page.

Blaz Media is located at the Aston Science Park in Birmingham, we also service businesses in throughout the region including web design in Coventry, web design in Nuneaton, web design in Northampton, web design in Redditch, web design in Rugby, web design in Stratford Upon Avon, web design in Wolverhampton, web design in Leamington Spa, web design Warwick, web design in Kidderminster,web design in Burton Upon Trent, web design in Solihull, web design in Tamworth, web design in Lichfield, web design in Dudley, web design in Hinckley, web design in Leicester, web design in Telford, web design in Worcester, web design in Derby, web design in Lye, web design in Walsall, web design in Stafford, web design in Daventry, webdesign in Loughborough, webdesign in Bridgenorth, web design in Shrewsbury, web design in Stoke On Trent, web design in Smethick, web design in Sutton Coldfield, web design in Stourbridge, web design Great Malvern, web design in Hereford, web design in Droitwich, web design in Kenilworth, web design in Newport, web design in Loughborough, web design in Hinckley, web design in Melton Mowbray, web design in Wellingborough, Corby & Kettering,

Thats not content designed for the user, its blatent keyword stuffing for the term web design... I hope they are not teaching what they practice...

[sirearl]

I Disagree (unless I am mis-reading your post)

Dont mess with pages that already rank well, but do add new pages (content) on topic to the pages that already rank highly

There is only 1 page at the top of google and one would presume its got as good a content as possible ?

so why would you mess with it:rolleyes:

Adding new pages is a different ball game:)


Earl

[RayB]

There is only 1 page at the top of google and one would presume its got as good a content as possible ?

so why would you mess with it:rolleyes:

You wouldn't - re-read my post :)

Adding new pages is a different ball game:)

Agreed - that is what I said - time for your nap Earl :D

[sirearl]

You wouldn't - re-read my post :)



Agreed - that is what I said - time for your nap Earl :D

Ray do you disagree with me for the sake of disagreeing or have you a cunning plan ?:p

If I wanted a Parrot I would buy one:rolleyes:

[RedEvo]

If I wanted a Parrot I would buy one:rolleyes:

So you keep saying, keep saying, keep saying........

d

[RayB]

Ray do you disagree with me for the sake of disagreeing or have you a cunning plan ?:p
Earl, read my posts again - you are getting confused, not disagreeing (someone fetch a nurse)

If I wanted a Parrot I would buy one:rolleyes:
Fetching - especially with a matching wooden leg and eye patch - suits you sir :p

You could audition for the part of Johnny Depps' Great Great Grandfather in "Pirates of the Caribbean Part V - Relics Dug Up" :D

[sirearl]

So you keep saying, keep saying, keep saying........

d

Sounds like a bad case of Psittacosis to me :p


Earl

[Chris Kaday]

Do you have to be called Mike to go on these wonderful SEO courses then? No seriously – would love to find one in London – any suggestions?

Chris Kaday

[Pressman]

you get what you pay for I guess. Although the guy who said £65K probably didn't want the work!

[betterlanguages]

you get what you pay for I guess. Although the guy who said £65K probably didn't want the work!

Not so sure Steve, I've learnt a lot through "free" courses (EU funded). Have you joined e-business club yet? They run some excellent web design and SEO courses in Nottingham and the surrounding area. Susan Hallam of Hallam Communications speaks extensively on the subject, and is worth listening to. What I've gained from these courses is a better understanding when talking to web developers and SEO experts. We've spent a fraction of £65k. £500ish to set up the site, and then ongoing spend as we've added content and additional hosting. We're never likely to compete directly with the biggest players in our industry, e.g. our home page inbound links around 180 at last count, SDL one of the biggest competitors, nearly 20,000, many from high quality sites.

Its not only about whether we can compete, its also about whether we would want to. We're building a nice brand, and don't really want millions of irrelevent hits. Knocking them off top spot on "translation services", one day maybe, but not just yet. I think there's a lot of hype about SEO. I'm not convinced we could unseat them even if we spent vast amounts of money.

Hope this helps

Mike
www.betterlanguages.com (http://www.betterlanguages.com)

[Reflections]

SEO is a contineous process. So monthly quotation is good. The monthly expenses varies according to sites requirement. Set a budget and ask for quote to the best SEO companies.

[Pet Nanny]

Okay all you SEO guys. What I know about SEO is diddly nothing. I read and try to digest what goes on in this and other forums, and off I go to fiddle around with my site. Admittedly, Scott from Eflaunt has been building links for me, and Ray B has been brilliant giving of his time and expertise. I honestly think he has missed his vocation!

My site to date, has constantly seen a 1st page rank on google and without that rank I could not function.

Thought thought I would put in my two penneth lol

[LinkingClever]

without that rank I could not function.
I would suggest doing somthing about that, as Google can drop a site with no warning, and no obvious reason initially. Look into other search rankings in different keywords and search engines, and also other traffic sources. Forum sigs, social media, advertising, PPC; whatever suits.
Jay

[creospace]

I would suggest doing somthing about that, as Google can drop a site with no warning, and no obvious reason initially. Look into other search rankings in different keywords and search engines, and also other traffic sources. Forum sigs, social media, advertising, PPC; whatever suits.
Jay

Slight scare mongery there i think - why would google drop her site for 'no reason' they are in the business of providing content based search results. If they dropped the site it would be for a good reason i bet and that's probably a naughty reason

[LinkingClever]

No scaremongery intended, but relying on one thing for your business online is not a good idea imo.
Google uses an algorithm to sort its results, and continually alters it to display the most relevent results. If it makes a change and the site in question doesn't 'fit' the new criteria, it can drop.
Jay

(http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/member.php?u=4905)

[DuaneJackson]

Slight scare mongery there i think - why would google drop her site for 'no reason' they are in the business of providing content based search results. If they dropped the site it would be for a good reason i bet and that's probably a naughty reason

I thinks it's sound advice. She doesn't need to do anything wrong. Two words: Florida Update.

If your business is dependent on your google ranking (or any other single source), you're in a very vulnerable position and it'd make sense to do whatever you can to mitigate that.

[creospace]

I thinks it's sound advice. She doesn't need to do anything wrong. Two words: Florida Update.

In that case the reason was a mass one, I took it the poster was refering to an individual single removal of her site without any reason and so my comments were swayed by that.

Of coruse it makes good busness sense to spread your risk but it is the case that some companies soley rely on the internet and if you soley rely on the net (generally speaking) you have to rely on google with what 80+% of search engine searches and if no other method is working for you then you have little choice do you.

For some maybe a lot they will have to just hope, not ideal granted.

[Reflections]

SEO is not too difficult, hire an experienced SEO guy on monthly basis.

[Pet Nanny]

Could someone explain what Florida update is please? Nina scratches her head.

[pcc]

Florida Update (http://www.webworkshop.net/florida-update.html)

[GNU]

What's better, spending £150 a month on SEO and generating £300 of new business, or spending £10000 a month to generate £5000 of new business?

Is that a trick question :|

[GNU]

Interestingly about half thought that Page Rank was vitally important, and the other half dismissed it completely. What are your thoughts on this?

PR is more relevant if you have a larger site, i.e. lots of pages.

You need a certain amount of PR to keep your pages in the main index, so, you will struggle to keep lots of pages in the index with a low PR site.

That said the amount of PR you need seems to depend largely on the niche.

If your pages are unique and original in a niche with little competition then it is easier to float them in the main index, but, within a high competition niche where there are already millions of similar pages you need more PR.

Thats my take on it anyway... as an amateur...

[Reflections]

Ask for SEO quotation to Best SEO company like www.orisysinfotech.co.uk. I am referring this form my personal experience.

[Skillprover]

All what you have read above is simply to encourage you to part with your money.

Check out "skills testing" "skills assessment", "uk skills testing" plus many other keywords all on first page and my SEO consultant is charging me just US$300 per month.

The problem with SEO is that you CANNOT match results with price. It depends on your market area. These days with outsource services, a low-cost consultant will do EVERY BIT AS WELL as one charging 10 times higher.

DO NOT be fobbed off with "get what your pay for" nonsense. The fact remains is that price is governed by the costs of the SEO consultancy, not YOUR SEO consultancy.

Get in touch with me and I can give you his details.

[sirearl]

All what you have read above is simply to encourage you to part with your money.

Check out "skills testing" "skills assessment", "uk skills testing" plus many other keywords all on first page and my SEO consultant is charging me just US$300 per month.

The problem with SEO is that you CANNOT match results with price. It depends on your market area. These days with outsource services, a low-cost consultant will do EVERY BIT AS WELL as one charging 10 times higher.

DO NOT be fobbed off with "get what your pay for" nonsense. The fact remains is that price is governed by the costs of the SEO consultancy, not YOUR SEO consultancy.



Get in touch with me and I can give you his details.

Well as your in a low competition area one would not expect to pay very much.

Earl

[Reflections]

SEO quotation depends upon your site and no. of keywords you targeting. If your website is big then budget should be more.

First ask for free analysis report for your website. Then target your branding keywords.

[Contract Hire]

It depends on just what search terms you are chasing and how competative the search terms you are after are, aswell as just how good or bad the site was made in the first place, how much promotional work had already been done to the site there are many factors to take into consideration when taking on a new project and quoting a price for the job.

There is no doubt then just have at least gave a basic run down of the different areas they were going to cover for you, so you had an idea on the different jobs that they were going to get done for you.

Like many have said the problem with the SEO trade is there are so many of them out there who really dont have a clue what they are doing. The amount of so called SEO experts with their own company's I see on webmaster/SEO forums asking questions about very basic SEO methods amazes me.

I dont call my self an SEO pro or SEO guru like many of them but I see myself as just a guy who knows a bit about the trade yet I still know more than a huge percentage of the actual "SEO Pro's and Gurus".

[sirearl]

It depends on just what search terms you are chasing and how competative the search terms you are after are, aswell as just how good or bad the site was made in the first place, how much promotional work had already been done to the site there are many factors to take into consideration when taking on a new project and quoting a price for the job.

This is no doubt then just have atleast gave a basic run down of jthe different areas they were going to cover for you, so you had an idea on the different jobs that they were going to get done for you.

Like many have said the problem with the SEO trade is there are so many of them out there who really dont have a clue what they are doing. The amount of so called SEO experts with their own company's I see on webmaster/SEO forums asking questions about very basic SEO methods amazes me.

I dont call my self an SEO pro or SEO guru like many of them but I see myself as just a guy who knows a bit about the trade yet I still know more than a huge percentage of the actual "SEO Pro's and Gurus".

Good appraisal John.I think the problem may come from web design companies,taking on SEO without having the experience or knowledge .

But I don't think the blame lies totally with them as I am sure a lot of there clients request that they do SEO for them.

SEO is a seperate branch of website design ,that like most things requires a great deal of study and experience allied to a certain apptitude.

Earl

[PeteYoung]

Completely agree there Earl.

Unfortunately there are a lot of organisations out that that do profess to do SEO, and do not do it well, however I would also add you could say that for Web Design, Advertising and a multitude of other channels of 'marcomms'.

'Enterprise SEO' (ie high end SEO) I would suggest does require an expert. If you are optimising for low competition terms, expert inhouse knowledge and a reasonably structured site will in all likelihood result in some localised niche visibility on those terms, however move that into any of the highly competitive sectors such as debt (finance), travel or personal injury and you are talking about higher returns and in many cases increased competition and awareness of SEO.

As Earl said, SEO is a very much understood technology, and I would suggest is best implemented at the same time as your web build - ie let your SEO 'guru' be involved in guiding site structure, content and architecture, as this is easier built in at source, rather than bolted in at a later date.

I would also add, you do get what you pay for. THe amount of new business ops I personally walk into where the web design company 'does SEO' is amazing, and the results are often not equal to the promises at the beginning. Good SEO's are hard to come by - but they are there, and they do cost.

[Reflections]

Unfortunately there are a lot of organisations out that that do profess to do SEO, and do not do it well, however I would also add you could say that for Web Design, Advertising and a multitude of other channels of 'marcomms'.

'Enterprise SEO' (ie high end SEO) I would suggest does require an expert. If you are optimising for low competition terms, expert inhouse knowledge and a reasonably structured site will in all likelihood result in some localised niche visibility on those terms, however move that into any of the highly competitive sectors such as debt (finance), travel or personal injury and you are talking about higher returns and in many cases increased competition and awareness of SEO.

As Earl said, SEO is a very much understood technology, and I would suggest is best implemented at the same time as your web build - ie let your SEO 'guru' be involved in guiding site structure, content and architecture, as this is easier built in at source, rather than bolted in at a later date.

I would also add, you do get what you pay for. THe amount of new business ops I personally walk into where the web design company 'does SEO' is amazing, and the results are often not equal to the promises at the beginning. Good SEO's are hard to come by - but they are there, and they do cost.

Yes, you are right peteyoung.
Without proper analysis SEO is useless. The results completely depends upon proper analysis or the analysts.

Ethical SEO is time taking and a long process, but very effective.

[djdavejones]

I'd say 500 - 1K a month is accepted a lot. However, just think if only 10 people accept that guys 65k quote EVER, then he's well on his way to being a millionaire!

Some companies know that SEO is massivly important, that they are big and have lots of money, and that they know nothing about it...i.e. i bet some are dumb enough to pay it!

Dave
getbiz.co.uk

[mattsaw]

I'd say 500 - 1K a month is accepted a lot. However, just think if only 10 people accept that guys 65k quote EVER, then he's well on his way to being a millionaire!
There are a LOT of people paying more than £65kpa for SEO/IM I can think of 3-4 companies/individuals that wouldn't get out of their metaphorical bed for less than that.

[pws1970]

And I certainly ain't one of them, wish I were though. ;)

[sirearl]

I should be ,cause I am worth it and use the right shampoo.:D

On a serious note companies can make many millions out of the effects of SEO ,so large fee's are fair enough.

I think the shock factor comes from business owners selling 50 pence nick nacks.



Earl

[mattsaw]

On a serious note companies can make many millions out of the effects of SEO ,so large fee's are fair enough.

I think the shock factor comes from business owners selling 50 pence nick nacks.Spot on.

At the higher level you have multi-national companies who are equating SEO/IM with the costs (and brand impact) of an offline advertising/PR campaign. The companies that I've spoken to and worked with at this level usually find that not only is their ROI far better, but every penny can be accounted for and success metrics are far more clearly defined.

I'd also like to point out that this kind of level of spend isn't just for SEO, but you would also expect it to include a PPC and advertising spend where relevant, email marketing, online PR, social network marketing as well as all of the tracking an analysis.

Of course this kind of level of spending has to be reflected in the ticket price of the items that are being sold.

[Reflections]

On my view, ethical SEO is a slow, long term process. The cost is also very less. You are doing SEO means your site is always fresh and updated.

But business people using the quick benifit methods like online advertising, Pay per click, banner ads etc. in which huge money is invested for getting quick results.
That's why people think SEO is costly.
Am i right?

[betterlanguages]

On my view, ethical SEO is a slow, long term process. The cost is also very less. You are doing SEO means your site is always fresh and updated.

But business people using the quick benifit methods like online advertising, Pay per click, banner ads etc. in which huge money is invested for getting quick results.
That's why people think SEO is costly.
Am i right?

In my opinion, "yes" and "no"! I do agree that ethical SEO is slow and long term, but here is the first dilema, you either do it yourself, and its long, slow and cheep, (though you'll need to learn a lot about it which may cost money and/or time), or you get an SEO company to do it for you, and its long, slow and expensive!

With good web design, you can get quick results if content is well written and basic rules are followed. We've had a good level of success for our size of business with a moderately priced website. However we are now at the stage where further growth means a re-design and spending money.

Don't agree that Pay per click has to be expensive. We run our own campaign, target our audience, and spend a moderate amount on advertising.

Hope this helps

Cheers


Mike
website translation (http://www.betterlanguages.com/Website-translation-service.html) you can trust

[OldWelshGuy]

How do you define expensive?

If it take an amateur 18 months, and it takes a pro 6 months, and the pro is charging £350 a month, then the cost to get the results will be £2100. If the increase in sales is £1000 a month, then 12 months increased income x £1000 = 12,000, that being the difference between how long it takes the pro to how long it takes the amateur.

The difference therefore is
12,000
- 2,100
= £9900

So the amateur above, who has bungled along for 18 months, has COST himself almost £10,000! in lost profit.

[JackM]

What an insane amount of money!

I always prefer to do seo myself, they more I do it the better and faster I become and I put my money to other uses.

[quikshop]

I can't believe this thread is still going :p

On my view, ethical SEO is a slow, long term process.

I think that's the conclusion I've reached based on experience. Shock and Awe just doesn't wash with Google, going from half a dozen links to a few hundred in between Google dances is not going to reflect well on your website.

Consistent steady improvements has been and continues to be the most effective approach for us.

If you are lucky enough to pick a good value SEO expert that does know what to do then you can no doubt speed the whole process up. Does it justify the cost?

You can do it yourself but paying for SEO services definitely has its place, its purely a business decision based on what you hope will be a quicker return on your paid-for SEO investment.

[Heath Sanchez]

If you know enough about SEO, you can simply do it yourself or pay a staff member to perform the required tasks.

SEO is extremely powerful, but it's not as difficult as many companies would have you believe!

For a free SEO tutorial in under 15 mins, check out the link in my sig.

[F1SEO]

An interesting discussion indeed.

My own take on SEO, and we are and SEO company, is that you can only judge SEO by results. That is the only way a customer can measure if it's made a difference.

I've seen big SEO companies do very little (for example, add one h1 tag) and charge £2,500 for that piece of optimisation. So what you pay for is not always what you get. And the customer believes that because of the high price it must be good. When we asked to have a look to pickup the pieces because after 2 years of investment they had no decent results I found they had generated a html sitemap, a google map, and the h1 tag - £10,000. So little had been done it was a joke.

I've seen SEO efforts from webdesign companies trying to take it on and doing a lot of useless stuff.

From our own perspective I find that people just want to know what you can do for them, and how much it will cost. And if you provide solid service then customer will come back. Most don't like secrecy, and want to be part of the adventure, even if it's in a small way ... 'what do I think about ...?" is one of the usual questions.

[OldWelshGuy]

I have to agree with F1.

I repeatedly have the conversation with clients that rankings for specific words are not the best metric to use for success.

An example, I took a client on a few months ago, they were going ok, but not really where they wanted to be. They were targeting 20 phrases. they were ADAMANT they knew what they wanted and that was to rank for x,y,z.

Yesterday we had a meeting, they were TOTALLY uninterested in phrases x,y,z, as traffic has skyrocketed, enquiries have skyrocketed. This week so far they had taken on 5 new clients, and they re about to sign a blue chip company on a contract worth £100k a year.

NOW they have bought in to the 'bottom line is the best metric' that I preach. :)

[Reflections]

While asking for a quation concern company should ask about the detail seo plan and procedures.
Then only a company will get better service with affordable cost.
By monitoring the seo results and its business the company can calculate ROI.

[northern marine orkney lt]

Hi

Can anyone advise me on how to get priority listings on googls etc for our new business, we mainly get sales from eBay but the eBay and paypal costs are high?

Thanks
Paul

Northern Marine Orkney

marine4electronics .co .uk
nmgps .co .uk

[northern marine orkney lt]

Thanks for any advice

[betterlanguages]

Hi

Can anyone advise me on how to get priority listings on googls etc for our new business, we mainly get sales from eBay but the eBay and paypal costs are high?

Thanks
Paul

Northern Marine Orkney

marine4electronics .co .uk
nmgps .co .uk

Hi Paul,

Not sure what you mean by priority listing. If you are targeting the Google organic results, then there is no substitute for hard slog, optimising pages for chosen keywords, and building quality inbound links. Pay per click can help, but can cost loads for poor results if you do it badly. My advice would be either to enrole on good quality SEO training courses, if you want to do it yourself, or find an SEO company to do it for you.

E-bay and PayPal have definate benefits, fast results, and good ranking for e-bay pages. So I would say its good value while you build your own site.

Hope this helps.

Mike
translation services (http://www.betterlanguages.com)

[OldWelshGuy]

While asking for a quation concern company should ask about the detail seo plan and procedures.
Then only a company will get better service with affordable cost.
By monitoring the seo results and its business the company can calculate ROI.

While I am quite happy to explain procedures at the quotation stage. going into step by step detail pre-order is suicide. I give a fairly detailed proposal that covers areas of concern on the site, areas to be worked on etc. But as for step by step detail of how I will correct that, providing that will just result in some buyers giving your 5 hours worth of time proposal to a cheaper SEO to do the work.

Many companies issue RFP (requests for proposals) of work PURELY for this reason.

[Kneoteric_eSolutions]

Hi Paul,

Not sure what you mean by priority listing. If you are targeting the Google organic results, then there is no substitute for hard slog, optimising pages for chosen keywords, and building quality inbound links. Pay per click can help, but can cost loads for poor results if you do it badly. My advice would be either to enrole on good quality SEO training courses, if you want to do it yourself, or find an SEO company to do it for you.

E-bay and PayPal have definate benefits, fast results, and good ranking for e-bay pages. So I would say its good value while you build your own site.

Hope this helps.

Mike
translation services (http://www.betterlanguages.com)
Absolutely. Getting high organic ranking is gradual process and therefore cannot be achieved overnight or in a short span. But when it starts delivering you would see some fantastic results if done the right way. PPC can be used for instant gratification but then the budget is often restrictive.

With respect to Ebay, the ebay product page tends to rank higher for the searched term because the main domain itself commands authority and carries to sub domains.

[betterlanguages]

While I am quite happy to explain procedures at the quotation stage. going into step by step detail pre-order is suicide. I give a fairly detailed proposal that covers areas of concern on the site, areas to be worked on etc. But as for step by step detail of how I will correct that, providing that will just result in some buyers giving your 5 hours worth of time proposal to a cheaper SEO to do the work.

Many companies issue RFP (requests for proposals) of work PURELY for this reason.

Hi OldWelshGuy

I can understand this as a problem, but I think its a tricky balance, I've had proposals from some large SEO companies who are clearly sharks. A potential client needs enough detail to be able to judge that you know what you are doing. When commisioning services, I'm not only looking at cost. I made that mistake with our first website, initial cost £500 but still paying as it wasn't content managed and couldn't be updated easily. I've had SEO companies quote silly prices for things like adding Google analytics to a site, which is free from Google. This type of sharp practice gives the industry a bad name.

I've also watched competitors pay a lot of money for "black hat" SEO, like keyword stuffing. Its easy to forget that a site also has to appeal to human readers, as I imagine that its humans who make buying decisions not search engine spiders.

Cheers

Mike
website translation (http://www.betterlanguages.com/Website-translation-service.html) in any language

[OldWelshGuy]

I would agree with that Mike. I never quote without actually speaking to the client though. unsolicited RFP's are replied to with a polite 'when can we chat' and if they don't want to chat, then I reply saying I will not be quoting.

I work mainly with business owners though (although have worked with some huge corporations) large corps are the worse for fishing for ideas with RFP's, tehey will have an in house team, but issue RFP's purely to get ideas on what to do :(

[willitbe]

Snake oil springs to mind...........

[quikshop]

Snake oil springs to mind...........

Are you saying SEO does not work, or that SEO experts are all smoke and mirrors, or that liberally applying snake oil helps fight the 7 signs of ageing :rolleyes:

[PointandStare]

SEO is easy (http://pointandstare.com/project/how-to-get-to-number-1-on-google---orly) .... and yes, there are a very large contingency of conmen.
I know a 'seo expert' who, up to 9 months ago, worked as a clown!
needless to say his site is a template and he really has no clue BUT there are more gullible people out there than he can cater for.

[24x7 Exchange]

I think that the length of this thread (and its age) are testament to the fact that the SEO industry is not transparent enough and its client base are still as confused as ever. I guess we just have to wait for the SEO bubble to burst so that the "correction" will filter out the chaff from the wheat. Just my thoughts

[alphaseocompany]

Are you still looking for an seo agency?

[dsouza]

Agree to a certain extent with Chris, I think honestly those raking highly for "SEO" are paying for links to get there in the first place, thus filtering down into their prices frankly!

I also think the SEO industry is the new "Gold Rush" - lots of Cowboys and wild prices.

Also, if an SEO Company gives a quote without looking at any "technical" barriers that might be holding back a site in terms of SE friendliness I would be worried!

[OldWelshGuy]

but how will the average joe know if a 'technical barrier' exists or has been checked, this is the whole point. :(

[quikshop]

I also think the SEO industry is the new "Gold Rush"

Yep, because basic SEO is easy then there are no barriers to selling SEO services to the uninitiated... this is the SEO gold rush (http://www.seogoldrush.co.uk) :D

[gocreate]

I came across a medium business the other day that were looking to change agency (charging these ridiculous fees you hear about) and when I reviewed their site, there was little or no SEO work done!

A case of emperors new clothes maybe?! :eek:

Whilst it could be argued that any marketing investment is rated by returns (ie profit) one does need to be very careful when it comes to choosing an SEO provider.

If you are in the SME bracket, it's recommended to explore any of the following solutions:

1. Search out a company who maintain low overheads and charge by the hour or by tasks required.
2. Deal direct with a SEO specialist
3. Employ an SEO specialist full time

I started SEO Cornwall as an alternative to larger agencies and it's proving a successful business.

http://www.seocornwall.com :)

[Chris Ashdown]

With SEO and PPC, I feel that the best place to look is their contract, if it's written so that you can easily pull out without penalty after say three months and can continue there after on a monthly basis, then they are probably good at what they do and confident that you will see the benifit of their work anf want to continue working with them.

If on the other hand they need you to sign up to a year with hard to get out of clauses ask why they are trying to keep you tied to them, basically they are so unsure you would continue with them they have to hide under the small print

[Hotboxbert]

I think the main thing with any supplier is that you can become partners with them. If your SEO guy works with you he will help you and if he's bright he will also learn from you. As many SEO people are one man bands if they get, for example, good weekly feedback from a dozen customers they will learn far more than if they sit in their office with an 'i don't need help from amateurs' attitude. I've learnt a lot about SEO (but not site design) from my guy and he has shared his knowledge with about ten of his keener customers and we have all got good results and in the process his knowledge has kept up with the constantly changing algorithms.

At the risk of winding up website designers a lot of them could do with remembering that most customers would prefer an ugly site like mine that brings in business than a pretty one that google doesn't like.

thermo box recently awarded a prize on this forum for the length of its' left hand menu!

[UKSBD]

I do a bit of SEO for a company local to me 2 or 3 days a week just for
3 or 4 hours a day.

I charge them nowhere near what I should be charging them, mainly because
I go and do the work in their office, which gets me out of the house and
gives me a bit of office life.

The main reason I do it though is because I am constantly learning, have a
complete free reign and have the use of 3 members of their staff whenever
I ask for them.

[G. Lasagne]

hey uksbd
i have just received my second actual job from my free listing on your directory in only 2 weeks and was wondering how i could get an enhanced listing?
To be honest i only listed my company in it for seo reasons but have found it has performed better than my paid listings.
Bearing in mind i cover the whole of tyne and wear what could you offer me as far as an improved listing?

cheers:D

[Matt1959]

GasAngel, UKSBD is excellent. Its the only online directory I'm in cos I want to be in it. Very helpful guy as well........

sorry off topic I know, just thought I'd mention it:)

[G. Lasagne]

yeah cheers matt.
like i said im very shocked with the response from my listing.
Do you have a paid/enhanced listing and if so, have you noticed an increase of enquiries compared to the free one.
p.s are you on any other directories that are worth paying for? im on a few but they are a waste of money and will be defo cancelling them.:mad:

[Matt1959]

GA, I don't pay for any listings not even Yell. I'm on UKSBD because I noticed how high up on Google they were not only in my local area for the service I provide but also nationally so I signed up for a freebie with them. Imagine my horror when my listing with them overtook my own google listing that had been No 1 for ages. I'm back to the top now though;) I have had a couple of enquiries through them...

edit
I think 99% of directories are a waste of space. Some are not anywhere near page one google so what would I be buying with a paid listing? same applies to you no doubt..

[UKSBD]

Thanks both ;)

GasAngel:
Send me a PM with the reference nmber of your listing and I'll upgrade it for
you free of charge, give me a list of the main areas you work in and I'll see
if I can target those area too.

[G. Lasagne]

brilliant, top bloke
cheers

[Hotboxbert]

It puzzles me why it seems that people judge an SEO company by their page rank, it's a bit like checking out a double glazing company by looking at their office windows!
If you have some SEO companies in mind surely the best way to check them out is by looking at how well their customers sites do and against what competition.


(http://www.thermo-box.co.uk/)

[Chris Ashdown]

Hey

If they cannot get themselves into the google no 1 or 2 page, then why would they be able to get you there.

Most customers don't want their details advertised, as everyone would be calling them to confirm what the SEO says about them

[mattyk50]

but if theyre spending all day concentrating on their own rankings it can only mean two things....

1. they arent spending enough time on their clients
2. they dont have enough clients


Matt

[Mark-UK]

Theres an old saying " A chef never goes home and cooks" I think this is tailor made for SEO companies.

I've just launched my own new SEO & PPC agency brand, I have zero rankings and zero pagerank, am I worried? - no. I have plenty of clients rankings and success stories to prove my worth in the industry.

I'll do a little bit every now and then to my site and do the big things like DMOZ first but as for the other things they can wait as I have to work on clients sites not mine.

[betterlanguages]

It puzzles me why it seems that people judge an SEO company by their page rank, it's a bit like checking out a double glazing company by looking at their office windows!
If you have some SEO companies in mind surely the best way to check them out is by looking at how well their customers sites do and against what competition.


(http://www.thermo-box.co.uk/)

Great analagy, but my problem is that I am naturally suspicious when SEO companies make great claims about clients sites. Its a question of a few sharks giving the industry a bad name. :mad:

How can I be certain that a site they make mention of has gained ranking thanks to them?:(

Can I even be certain that the site is one they manage?;)

Their own site ought to have some reasonable optimisation so is likely to be a good guide, and as SEO is a competitive area should show their ability.

In my own industry, if our site was full of spelling mistakes it wouldn't inspire you to think we were good at translation (http://www.betterlanguages.com) would it? Equally even if you don't understand the other language versions, its a bit stange if a translation agency (http://www.betterlanguages.com) doesn't have a multilingual site. An SEO company without any SEO wouldn't inspire.

Cheers

Mike
thoroughly good translation in any language.

[billweberer]

That quote for £65,000 would have made me do more than giggle - i'd have screamed. Good SEO will cost you but the cost should come from ongoing work - you wouldn't pay for PR and have no way of finding out were your press coverage came from.

Most of the cost comes from making sure the work at the beginning is kept up to date, there is no point throwing loads of money at SEO to turn around one month later and say it didn't do anything. Keywords change, website content changes and you've got to keep on top of what your competition is doing. But that doesn't need to cost more than £1K to £3K if the company knows what they are doing and doesn't waist time.

[betterlanguages]

That quote for £65,000 would have made me do more than giggle - i'd have screamed. Good SEO will cost you but the cost should come from ongoing work - you wouldn't pay for PR and have no way of finding out were your press coverage came from.

Most of the cost comes from making sure the work at the beginning is kept up to date, there is no point throwing loads of money at SEO to turn around one month later and say it didn't do anything. Keywords change, website content changes and you've got to keep on top of what your competition is doing. But that doesn't need to cost more than £1K to £3K if the company knows what they are doing and doesn't waist time.

Is that £1K to £3k per hour, per month, per year :| ?

[Reflections]

65,000 is a huge amount for SEO quote.

[petera]

65,000 is a huge amount for SEO quote.

I'm not convinced that it is. It's certainly a lot of money, but not for a blue-chip company who are going to earn a million pounds for the work done. Sure it's a lot of money if it doesn't work but that goes for any business service you pay for. If the £5400 per month spent generates a significant ROI then it isn't really a lot of money to spend.
I work for a digital agency, and most of our clients pay around £5000 per month = £60,000 per year for SEO. These are huge blue-chip companies with massive budgets who stand to make huge amounts of money through their websites if they rank well.
Most reasonable sized digital agencies will charge around £750-£1000 per day for their time. Therefore for a £5000 per month campaign you get anywhere between 5-6.6 days of SEO time per month dedicated to your account.
If you're a small to medium sized company looking for SEO don't approach the big agencies expecting a decent price. These guys are targeting large companies, and therefore their services are priced accordingly.

[Chris Ashdown]

Still hard to understand the prices or amount of time required

With SEO you need a lot of work at the startup, if you have not developed the site with a SEO focused designer, but after the first month their is little to ammend, the odd new product range etc, but the person entering the site will already have been informed by the SEO company on what format to adopt so next to nothing to do

My way of looking at it is, that if I paid for a large web site and then had to pay a expert in SEO to change the site, I would never have paid the designers invoice in the first place

Seems like the old sayings are best "nobody ever got fired for buying IBM" or "The more you spend the better the quality" both a bit suspect these days

[katev]

So what you mean is that definitely the best option is to be careful to contract a company that not only has experience in web design but also in SEO, to make just one invest and spend less time in achieving the objectives. But in the case your web page is already deign you will have to find just a person or place where optimize it. Guys this information is really useful for me because I´m interested on make my own business in this area. The last thing, do you know a very good company that offer this services?...:rolleyes:

[Reflections]

Yes, you are right.
It is an wisable decission to hire a company who can provide Web design, development and SEO solution under one roof. "Orisys Infotech" is such a software company of your choice which can fulfill all your requirements under one roof.

[quikshop]

Yes, you are right.
It is an wisable decission to hire a company who can provide Web design, development and SEO solution under one roof. "Orisys Infotech" is such a software company of your choice which can fulfill all your requirements under one roof.

And the natural synergy between supplying showers, toilets and seo services is :|

[DuaneJackson]

And the natural synergy between supplying showers, toilets and seo services is :|

Well, if you're searching for a toilet you want to be able to find one quickly. If you fail, you'll need a shower.

Makes sense to me anyway.

[sirearl]

Well, if you're searching for a toilet you want to be able to find one quickly. If you fail, you'll need a shower.

Makes sense to me anyway.

Looking at the date of the original post.

Its all water under the bridge to me.:|

Earl

[Reflections]

Do n't be confuse.
My website is "purebathrooms.net" and my SEO process is done by "Orisys Infotech" a reputed software company.

[Nick63]

When you compare SEO quotations please remember that seo is going to be a long term investment and definitely a business generator with short payback period :-)