Title keywords. 12 or 67?

[mountie]

Just had a SEO firm do a quick health check on my site.

The first thing they spotted was that we have only 12 title keywords. They suggest using up to 67 but this contradicts what we have been told by several other SEO's.

Examples of their clients organic rankings are impressive but i don't know what to believe.

Which is better, 12 or 67?

[PintoPotts]

Bearing in mind Google can only display around 8 words in it's results, you don't need much more than that, so 12 would be about right.

Ideally try and have different keywords on different pages, relating to the specific page.

If you want some decent SEO advice drop me a PM, I can put you in touch with a home based SEO who charges as little as £200 a month for an ongoing campaign (that includes ongoing content and article writing as well).

I can also give you examples of work and current clients.

Be careful, there are loads of so called SEO's out there who are only interested in taking peoples money and not delivering results.

[Tin]

this contradicts what we have been told by several other SEO's.

Is that 67 small words or 12 biggies, or is it the other way around? Either way, sounds like they don't have a clue. Sorry, I can understand your dilema and sympathise.

Ray

[Subbynet]

I would call that keyword cramming and as such could see you penalised in the SERP's.

[RayB]

If they are suggesting 67 keywords this is simply keyword spam, so the SEO does not have a clue.

[mountie]

Thanks guys. Pretty unanimous answers.

[PintoPotts]

Although this article (from a well respect source) flies in the face of our responses...

Their site seems to be down at the moment, well worth reading though.....

http://www.hobo-web.co.uk/seo-blog/index.php/google-you-can-put-50-words-in-your-title-tag-well-read-it/

[AndyBlack]

Yes, I agree. 67 is keyword spamming, and would be more like a paragraph than a title. Try not to repeat keywords more than once in your page titles, and use a different title for each page on your site. You will get much more traffic this way. Remember, every decent content driven page you add to your website, should eventually get indexed and grab you new visitors!

Andy

ps. - Also remember that the title wants to basically be the answer that a visitor is looking for. Keyword spamming the title will not look attractive to potential visitors when they see it in the likes of Google, also having your main keyword(s) at the start of the title will add more weight and help with your rankings....

ie - Promotional Products supplied throughout the UK via our online store

rather than..... Promotional Products, Pen, Mousemats, Coasters, Business Gifts, Advertising items, Crystal etc etc.

The second is spamming and will also help confuse the SE's to which is most relevent. Focus on one product/service/niche per page.

[sirearl]

If they are suggesting 67 keywords this is simply keyword spam, so the SEO does not have a clue.

well I often use 40 plus words in me title and I know for a fact that google reads everyone and ranks them.

strange that ;)

P.S spam in the title is the repeated use of the same word :p


Earl

[sirearl]

Just had a SEO firm do a quick health check on my site.

The first thing they spotted was that we have only 12 title keywords. They suggest using up to 67 but this contradicts what we have been told by several other SEO's.

Examples of their clients organic rankings are impressive but i don't know what to believe.

Which is better, 12 or 67?

I always tend to believe google ,if they have good results accross a wide range of products and industries they must be doing something right.:rolleyes:


Earl

[natkits]

As far as my SEO knowledge is concerned, max of 80 characters seems to give the best results, though it's interesting to see Earl mention what I assume is significantly more than that!

Care to show examples, Earl?

Alec

[awebapart.com]

Google might index lots of words, but the point is that the more words you place in the title, the more you dilute the importance of the other words.

Imagine someone is searching for letting agents richmond, if you have the following title:

letting agents wimbledon twickenham richmond isleworth

then the title is around 50% relevant for the searched keywords, it is diluted by other words that are not necessary.

If you had the following title:

letting agents richmond

then your title is 100% relevant to the search, there is no dilution, and therefore you should get more ranking points in the overall search engine ranking.

What percentage relevancy to common search terms would a 67 word title have, unless 67 word searches are common!

The trick is to not be all things to all people on one page, but have multiple pages which focus on different things.

[sirearl]

Here you go about 42 words in the title.

http://www.purevacations.com/


Earl

[natkits]

Thanks Earl, that's an example of a site that has wayyy too many keywords in its' title. If you Google for 'surfing holidays united states' you'll see you don't rank anywhere near the first couple of pages, hence you won't generally get any hits from that search term. That search term takes keywords from the very start of the title (the most important ones) mixed with two words from the end of the title (the least important).

Now go look at a website that does limit the characters in the title and try a similar search, even a low PR page will rank better ;)

[sirearl]

Google might index lots of words, but the point is that the more words you place in the title, the more you dilute the importance of the other words.

Imagine someone is searching for letting agents richmond, if you have the following title:

letting agents wimbledon twickenham richmond isleworth

then the title is around 50% relevant for the searched keywords, it is diluted by other words that are not necessary.

If you had the following title:

letting agents richmond

then your title is 100% relevant to the search, there is no dilution, and therefore you should get more ranking points in the overall search engine ranking.

What percentage relevancy to common search terms would a 67 word title have, unless 67 word searches are common!

The trick is to not be all things to all people on one page, but have multiple pages which focus on different things.


Not quite paul it goes like this

letting agents principle part of title.

searched for

letting agent richmond

SE would see

letting agents ( wimbledon ) ( twickenham ) richmond.

it skips the bracketed and goes to the actual search term.

so I would agree that
letting agents richmond would rank higher all things being equal.

the dilution would not be that significant.

Earl

[sirearl]

Thanks Earl, that's an example of a site that has wayyy too many keywords in its' title. If you Google for 'surfing holidays united states' you'll see you don't rank anywhere near the first couple of pages, hence you won't generally get any hits from that search term. That search term takes keywords from the very start of the title (the most important ones) mixed with two words from the end of the title (the least important).

Now go look at a website that does limit the characters in the title and try a similar search, even a low PR page will rank better ;)

Well as the busiest surfing holiday website in the world ,I don't supposed there that bovvered ;)

and try not to target the US owing to the language barrier :rolleyes:

its money in the till that counts :)

Earl

[natkits]

You're right, why would proper SEO be of any concern to them... :rolleyes:

[awebapart.com]

searched for

letting agent richmond

SE would see

letting agents ( wimbledon ) ( twickenham ) richmond.

it skips the bracketed and goes to the actual search term.
Yes I understand the difference between phrase search and free text search, with free text search words can be in different orders and can have other words between them and still be picked up. But for search engine ranking, relevancy/dilution does affect ranking, as well as the order of words, which is why you get slighty different results when searching for:

letting agents richmond

and

richmond letting agents

and

letting richmond agents

Natkits also mentioned the idea of google adding more weight to the words nearer the start of the title.

As for the purevacations site, although more words are used some are repeated like surf so this doesn't affect dilution so much, and generally the important words are nearer the start. The site also does well to have separate pages focusing on different areas, so if you google surfing holidays florida the page that focuses on this area does come up (although I would say that this page's title might be diluted at the end with unnecessary keywords, like australia, fiji, etc).

[RayB]

and try not to target the US owing to the language barrier :rolleyes:

Earl

Is a different language spoken in your part of Kent than in the USA :|

[sirearl]

You're right, why would proper SEO be of any concern to them... :rolleyes:


Not sure what proper SEO is ? I read a lot about it but it all seems different to me :rolleyes:

But being No 1 or thereabouts on google for the stuff you sell will do me.Provided that it puts a couple of bob in the kitty :D


Earl

[natkits]

Proper SEO would involve writing titles that are totally relevant and not diluted. The point being that you're found for the keywords within your titles. As i demonstrated in an earlier post, searches for terms that mix the strongest and weakest terms from the titles in the site you linked don't yield useful results.

Not exactly 'proper seo' eh?

What I'm keen to see is an example of one of the sites you've done that you mentioned earlier where you've used 40+ words in the title... I'd be willing to bet we'd see similar results when searching for the keywords at the end of the title.

[sirearl]

Is a different language spoken in your part of Kent than in the USA :|

To be fair its more a psychological ,comprehension, thing with our cousins across the way allied to the total non recognition that other human beings exist on the planet.

now you got me started :(

There latest little wheeze is using food to power there 4 x 4 's

does it matter that 2 billion people on the planet have not enough food to eat,does it hell uncle sam will show them :|

Just look at there leader,and tell me the last time he put two words together in the right order ?

having gone to the moon once,I just hope they go again,ALL of EM ;)

Have a nice day now:mad:

Earl

P.S no us yokels in kent don't speak there language

[sirearl]

Proper SEO would involve writing titles that are totally relevant and not diluted. The point being that you're found for the keywords within your titles. As i demonstrated in an earlier post, searches for terms that mix the strongest and weakest terms from the titles in the site you linked don't yield useful results.

Not exactly 'proper seo' eh?

What I'm keen to see is an example of one of the sites you've done that you mentioned earlier where you've used 40+ words in the title... I'd be willing to bet we'd see similar results when searching for the keywords at the end of the title.

well you do it your way and I'll do it mine OK:D

[natkits]

I'll have nary a bad word said about good ol' George Dubbyah! The man is a laugh a minute!

[natkits]

well you do it your way and I'll do it mine OK:D

that's a deal :)

[RayB]

To be fair its more a psychological ,comprehension, thing with our cousins across the way allied to the total non recognition that other human beings exist on the planet.

now you got me started :(

P.S no us yokels in kent don't speak there language

Nice man with clipboard asks "Earl, shall I put you down as a "no" or "undecided" then?"

[sirearl]

As for the purevacations site, although more words are used some are repeated like surf so this doesn't affect dilution so much, and generally the important words are nearer the start. The site also does well to have separate pages focusing on different areas, so if you google surfing holidays florida the page that focuses on this area does come up (although I would say that this page's title might be diluted at the end with unnecessary keywords, like australia, fiji, etc).

Not when you put the supercharger on full boost ;)

Agree Paul but you can do it when you know the strength of your sites in its market sector http://www.surfexperience.com :)


Earl