What will a web/designer creator give me over simply creating my own site [Archive]

Page

8th August 2007, 06:43

My (current) plan is to create a test site using pinnacle cart on UK2 (took them 3 days to answer a basic email and related to sales tut tut - not a good indicator). The reason for this is to then put me into a better postion to "know" what I want from a custom web site a designer/creator can only do so much on this - I have to know also. The type of site produced by people who contribute to this forum.

But as I look at it, I can "see" what I have to do and it all seems quite simple (he said - ha ha).

Even if this is superficially true. What else would I get by going through a designer/creator.

There must be a whole list.

Base this on the fact that I am pretty competent with technology - but I have no interest in getting into it at much of a level (beyond set up I do not see that much is needed - especially nowadays with the modern carts) and have no personal experience of ecommerce but do have friends that I could call on - a little bit.

(Damn who is going to write that book - see another post)

stevefrost

8th August 2007, 10:31

You could also say what would hiring a plumber/plasterer/builder/electrician
/joiner give me over doing it myself.

If you want a professional job, you should hire a professional, if you want an amateur job have a go yourself.

You need to understand that an ecommerce business is more than just a website, an ecommerce consultant will help you build your business, not just your website, they will be able to offer you advice on other aspects such as shipping or accepting payment.

When choosing which company to work withh it is worth pointing out that ecommerce and SEO go hand in hand, an ecommerce website that has had no SEO will suffer in the search engines. So look for a company that offers both ecommerce and SEO consultancy.

awebapart.com

8th August 2007, 12:01

If you are going the DIY route, then you might be missing the graphic design aspects that a web designer could add to your site (e.g. branding, top banner graphics, colour scheme, other graphics) - unless you have these skills. You could employ a web designer or graphic designer to help you with this, but make sure they are well aware of the constraints of the ecommerce framework you are using, don't give them carte blanche to design a website that cannot be implemented with your chosen ecommerce system.

Going the DIY automated route you will also not get the business, marketing, SEO, and other ecommerce advice that you would get from an ecommerce supplier that provides advice on a more personal basis, providing a handholding service and showing you how to best use the system in anger.

boho

8th August 2007, 12:31

Base this on the fact that I am pretty competent with technology - but I have no interest in getting into it at much of a level (beyond set up I do not see that much is needed - especially nowadays with the modern carts) and have no personal experience of ecommerce but do have friends that I could call on - a little bit.

Paul, agree with your comments, basically if you don't want or have the experience to really get into maintaining your site, don't do it, your skills should be harnessed making your business work, DIY works best if you have a greater level of understanding of the intimate workings of web design and ecommerce functions, and I for one don't feel the need or desire to concentrate on anything besides making my business work, looking after my customers and earning some money from it.

I would give consideration to a hosted solution, find a good quality template driven service, where you can customise either right from the beginning or else do it at a later stage when you know your business is going to work the way you hope.

I started with the standard template design provided by my host (www.internetretailer.biz (http://www.internetretailer.biz)) and then a few months in, once my business was happily trading and I knew what I wanted my web design to look like I provided the design and had it integrated into my account.

Astaroth

8th August 2007, 18:24

Do you see a doctor or do you just read a few medical books? Do you use a solicitor or just read a few legal books? Do you use a web developer or just read a few web coding books?

Are the technical skills that hard? Not particularly any more than holding a knife to do surgery is or quoting a piece of case law, what you are paying for is the knowledge/ experience that goes on top of the basic type <br /> to get a line break.

Whilst you could learn the technical skills and have a lot of practice to get the experience and read all the journals/ blogs/ newsletters etc to keep your skills up with the changing technologies/ practices etc it does become highly questionable of your business if this is the most productive thing you can find to do with your time rather than actually running the business itself.

dan_moore

8th August 2007, 22:38

I suspect you already knew the answer :) Lots of things in life seem simple but the reality, if you want quality, is often quite different!

VLAHAKISA

8th August 2007, 23:23

When choosing which company to work withh it is worth pointing out that ecommerce and SEO go hand in hand, an ecommerce website that has had no SEO will suffer in the search engines. So look for a company that offers both ecommerce and SEO consultancy.

---------------------------------------------------

I disagree with this comment. Whilst I agree that it's important that most sites once built will need seo work...I don't agree that the person that builds the site has be also be the person that carries out the seo work.

As long as you are aware that you need a good build followed by seo work, it doesn't matter if they are done by two different companies.

Amanda

Astaroth

8th August 2007, 23:43

No, with a dynamic website, such as ecommerce, SEO has to be part of the consideration of the developers.

It is possible for a developer to create a site such that no 3rd party can modify the site for SEO or other purposes without having to decompile/ decode a compiled/ encoded file which whilst technically possible can cost more than the original development.

It is however possible for the developer simply to lay the foundations for the SEO to be done by someone else

DotNetWebs

9th August 2007, 00:30

Page

9th August 2007, 10:15

"Do you see a doctor or do you just read a few medical books? Do you use a solicitor or just read a few legal books?"

Both. Like most people. And you probably do the same. It just depends on what the need is. Frequently I use both at the same time.

Pros and cons to both which is why I have made the post to give me that understanding.

I know where the split lies for me with doctors and solicitors. But not all subjects - this is one of them.

RedEvo

9th August 2007, 13:28

Web professionals (real ones, not people who simply call themselves web pros) will add enormous value to your business. They know web land inside out and are learning new stuff every day which they share with their customers.

In short they add real value to any business they work with.

Ebusiness is not about techy stuff, it's not about pretty looking graphics, it's about doing business electronically and web pros understand this.

There's too much to it to simply fiddle, if you are serious about your business online that is.

As usual, all IMHO.

d

stevefrost

13th August 2007, 12:42

I wholeheartedly agree.

It is this added value that really separates the Web Professionals from the Web rabble.
If you do decide to use a web designer/developer rather than the DIY option, ask as many questions as you can about ecommerce/ebusiness if they struggle to supply you with informed replies, go elsewhere.
Ecommerce is more than a fancy template.

RedEvo

13th August 2007, 12:51

Let's start a club Steve!!

;)

d

stevefrost

14th August 2007, 15:39

Like the UKWDA but with standards?

RedEvo

14th August 2007, 15:42

Loving that ;-)

d

ExpandOnline

14th August 2007, 16:11

Like the UKWDA but with standards?
http://www.bwdd.co.uk

Richard Conyard

14th August 2007, 16:41

http://www.bwdd.co.uk

If things like that didn't make me feel like crying I'd be laughing!

I'm sorry to be nasty, but sites like that one have placed themselves on a pedestal by what they are trying to achieve and the quality of that site is distinctly poor.

> going back to lurking again now <

ExpandOnline

14th August 2007, 16:46

If things like that didn't make me feel like crying I'd be laughing!

I'm sorry to be nasty, but sites like that one have placed themselves on a pedestal by what they are trying to achieve and the quality of that site is distinctly poor.

> going back to lurking again now <
Yes I like all the square boxes where they have invalid characters for the font

They must be pretty strict on who the let in as there are only twenty-something companies listed. ;-)

Peter

VLAHAKISA

14th August 2007, 20:29

It is possible for a developer to create a site such that no 3rd party can modify the site for SEO or other purposes without having to decompile/ decode a compiled/ encoded file which whilst technically possible can cost more than the original development.
------------------------------------------------------------

I agree the wrong developer (ie doesn't know what they are doing properly) can certainly build a site in such a way that the site code needs completely rebuilding for the site to have a chance of gaining a good ranking once optimisation work is carried out.

Of course one should take care to hire an experienced developer that knows how to build a website properly before they hire one. If that good quality developer doesn't provide seo services that is fine, you can move onto an seo firm once they are finished because a good developer will ensure the site is built in such a way that it can get a good ranking once work is carried out.

Building it well doesn't result in a good ranking though, many businesses don't realise that, they often think once it's built well they will automatically rank well. In competitive industries a lot more work is required following a good build to obtain a good ranking.

Amanda

da8iwr

16th August 2007, 02:23

Stop this guys, let him build the site, it will be a giggle to see the huge amount of open source not needed scripts added, because they were found on hotscripts.com, and loads of little men with pick axes saying site under construction.

The truth is, you could actually build a site with opensource products like Joomla, Drupel, Oscommerce, Virtuemart, Xcart, Word Press, PhPBB, and a host of other stuff. But trying to get them to work with each other and look right is a nightmare.

Ive been using Joomla/Mambo, drupal, virtuemart for many years now, and im quite pleased with what i can do with it. But i still really struggle with it at times.

So to try and make a pro site with them that will represent your own company to a level that will reflect your products, you will need to be very talented.

Also time Vs money, will it be worth it, lets say it takes you 3-6months to work it out and develop the site to a 5 out of 10 standard, the man hours you worked there you could have sold your products for more than a pro 10 out 10 site would cost.

The trick for a pro site, is to make it as simple as possible, without loosing the functionality, so its a fine line between to basic, and over egging your site.

I'm rebuilding 4 UKBF members sites on here at the moment, who tried to make their own, and have since said if they spent the time on their own product/service than building their site, I would not only have been free, they would actually have made profit with the money left over.

Page

16th August 2007, 07:25

Agree with your comments except...

I think long term.

I have no interest or time to be stringing together all the bits together like you mention.

But while getting an education update - so that I was up to speed to be able to approach a few designers/creators etc and make a better decision on which one to go with, I realised that this ecommerce game had moved on a lot.

Now as part of that education I think I can create a basic site that is - certainly good enough - pinnacle or cs-cart with no add ons - find out a bit more about it and what problems we may have beyond the site. Having the site is only a small part of everything.

It will then help me decide whether it is worth really pushing on with and at what level and put me in a much better position to go ahead in the right direction with minimal wasted time and effort when the bigger costs start rolling in with the pros involved.

If I do create the site. I will let you know so that you can judge it and enjoy pointing out all the mistakes.

I will also give feedback as to whether I think I made the right decision and whether it acheived its objectives.

RedEvo

16th August 2007, 09:09

Web development is simply a modern activity that has attracted hobbyists in numbers. Ever since the phrase "I'm not paying that!" was invented people have had a go, the UK is after all a true 'have a go' society.

When DTP was invented it was the end of the need for design agencies.........but it wasn't. I'm sure we could come up with a list of stuff where people 'save' money by doing it themselves.

Page is simply saying he wants to learn more so he can approach this in a more informed way. He's trying to avoid the situation where "the customer doesn't know what he wants until he sees what he gets, realises it's not what he needs even though it's exactly what he asked for!"

d

sirearl

16th August 2007, 09:47

Good points red.

I think the phrase " a little knowledge is dangerous " must apply to computer users,as I find every Tom,Dick and Harry who popped into PC world last month is a computer expert.So much so that I generaly keep very quite about what I do for fear of becoming entangled in a " who's got the better car debate "

Page seems to have a pretty balanced view if he is after understanding what the companies he is going to employ are doing,and having the knowledge to explain to them what he needs.

Earl

awebapart.com

16th August 2007, 10:12

I think Page will do OK with his DIY website. He has done a lot of research to find a solution that meets his particular needs so that is a good proportion of the work. He has asked a lot of good questions and sought advice on this forum, so in that respect he is getting help from others so its not a complete DIY job. He has wisely gone for a hosted solution - so he won't have the worry of installing the system himself or worrying whether the host meets the system requirements of the ecommerce system. He has wisely gone for not the cheapest hosted ecommerce solution, and in his particular case I think the extra spend should be worth it. He has wisely gone for a paid solution which doesn't require programming to get working, he has not gone for a free open source system which would require technical programming skills to get working.

Most of all he has not made the typical DIY mistakes people make:

1. Going for the first system they see, e.g. I want an online shop, I'll get a web magazine from WHSmiths, see a 7 page ad for 1and1 or an ad for Strato and go for that, or going for the what comes up in google when you type in online shop

2. Going for the cheapest system they see (the I'm not paying that mentality that RedEvo mentioned) - this usually takes people on the open source route which does require technical skills, or on a hosted solution that isn't really up to the job

3. Going for the prettiest ecommerce system they see - this usually takes people on the template route (e.g. templatemonster), templates for open source ecommerce systems, and they can end up with the same problems as in 2, i.e. technical programming required to turn the system into something professsional, but probably more problems than in 2 since they have focused on eye candy rather than function.

The DIY route Page has chosen should be fine, the main things missing from this particular DIY route that a specialist supplier could provide are things like graphic design skills, SEO advice, and other ecommerce advice.

The other thing to bear in mind is whichever route a business takes to getting an online shop, in most cases they are still left with some / a lot of DIY to do, e.g. preparing content and loading the hundreds of products onto the system (which can be a big task), processing the orders within the system, etc. even if some suppliers advise, and train them on this first.

Page

16th August 2007, 11:11

I think Paul and Red Evo sum it up quite nicely on where I am coming from.

Its funny because I did not set out to build my own site. Just to learn enough to commission one with a "good enough" understanding to make this worthwhile and not money down the pan.

I have been around long enough to know that it is not just a case of buying some product to sell in a pretty shop. Be it online or B&M.

That is the easy bit. It is the enough profit for the time and risk part that is harder. I've watched those lovely shops or cafes or restaurants come and go a lot over the years. Money and time and dreams down the pan.

The same is happening on the internet but is far less obvious than with normal shops.

As always those that get the balance right between the different factors - and when to buy in skills and where from can be key to this - will be the ones that succeed and they have to keep on doing this month after month and year after year. Even more so now that the internet is here.

I cannot see ecommerce going away and only becoming stronger. Personally I wish it would as it is threatening my traditional outlets where I am well established and where the barriers to entry are higher.
So for the way that I work I need a good understanding so that I can make good decisions. That are right for my personal and business objectives and with the expectation that the risk/reward is going to be worth it.

(Personal objectives - one example - I do not want to be spending much of my day boxing up orders for delivery. I would be to bored. This has implications beyond just setting up a shop on the web but what I need or want it to acheive within the larger business structure)

I think I am going into a saturated market and up against people that are in a better position than myself - due either to finances or their position in the supply chain.

But I believe that I can get my own little corner and make it worthwhile.

If I was newish to business or with average technology skills I would just go and buy in the skills from day one and try and get the education that way.

There seem to be some good people on this site whom I would have confidence in using. Following posts that people make and not just to threads that I have started is a bit like an extended interview.

(I actually came to this forum as a result of my initial ecommerce education - wow is it good - all the rest that I seemed to stumble on seemed to be angled around either running a business out of half of a toilet space or making a million bythe weekend)

sirearl

16th August 2007, 12:45

I think I am going into a saturated market and up against people that are in a better position than myself - due either to finances or their position in the supply chain.

But I believe that I can get my own little corner and make it worthwhile.

common sense post.

I would disagree with the above point though.The internet through the medium of the search engines creates a pretty level playing field and is one of the few areas in life where money does not neccessarily bring success.

Being at the top of the search engines can,all things being equal.

now being an SEO one might conclude I have a vested interest in promoting SEO.Well I don't as I only work on the sites that I have a financial interest in.and do not work for the general public,so am not on this forum to solicit work.

Earl

RedEvo

16th August 2007, 12:55

I would disagree with the above point though.The internet through the medium of the search engines creates a pretty level playing field and is one of the few areas in life where money does not necessarily bring success.

This is true but if you have more money to throw at SEO surely you can still steal an advantage?

d

boho

16th August 2007, 13:11

I don't think the SEO is the be all and end all of online success, good customer service, good products and an easy to navigate site are of as much, if not greater importance.

sirearl

16th August 2007, 13:15

Well I would have to agree to an extent,with the proviso that in the world of SEO's I don't think the amount of money charged has a lot to do with the SEO's ability,probably more to do with how well known they are E.T.C.

An awfull lot of good SEO can be done by anyone who is prepared to study hard for a few months.Its all available on the internet.The hard part is sorting the wheat from the chaff :)

Earl

RedEvo

16th August 2007, 13:19

An awfull lot of good SEO can be done by anyone who is prepared to study hard for a few months.

Which equals time which equals money. I agree, anyone with a reasonable grasp of the web can do it but it still costs. If you spend two months learning, in what areas are you making sacrifices?

d

sirearl

16th August 2007, 13:53

I don't think the SEO is the be all and end all of online success, good customer service, good products and an easy to navigate site are of as much, if not greater importance.

Not if no one finds you there not;)

Yes your right about customer service ,this is paramount for return visitors .If they like you and your service and your prices :)

But letting the world know you exist is the N0 1 priority and for search engines that means SEO in all its many forms :p

Earl

sirearl

16th August 2007, 14:00

Which equals time which equals money. I agree, anyone with a reasonable grasp of the web can do it but it still costs. If you spend two months learning, in what areas are you making sacrifices?

d

you do like the rest of us did.

no sleep,sandwiches,cold tea,no Bingo,and several pairs of glasses,cause we could never find the bleeding things :D

Earl

Sue F

16th August 2007, 14:19

I'd already dabbled in web design by the time we opened the business however initially I bought a shop builder package, complete with a shopping cart, because I thought it would look more professional plus we couldn't afford to hire someone to create a site for us.

I was promised that the shop package would work with our chosen card processing provider but having invested quite a bit of time populating and customising the shop it turned out that it wouldn't integrate the CCP which meant I had to build the shop myself from scratch.

I've used Dreamwever to put the site together along with Roman Cart shopping cart which I've recently upgraded to allow me to cross sell.

I would say the biggest advantage of doing the site yourself is that you have total control. My design and layout changes as I learn new techniques (or more importantly when I find time to play). I can add and remove products at a moments notice.

The down side is that initially it is time consuming to put the site together plus you could argue that the look and feel of our shop is very basic.

SEO wise I've done the basics ... keywords and links mostly plus two articles that I've written for other sites (SEO guys are probably hanging their heads in disgust as we speak :D ) and I'm on the first page of Google for several of my most important terms as we come up to the first anniversary of the site being live.

Best of luck with what ever you decide.

Page

16th August 2007, 14:55

Which equals time which equals money. I agree, anyone with a reasonable grasp of the web can do it but it still costs. If you spend two months learning, in what areas are you making sacrifices?

d

To right. Cannot do it all. Do not want to do it all.

That is why it is important to get that feel for where it is sensible for one to start and the other to finish. Experts and myself.

I am not a web expert of any form.
But have a "good enough" business understanding - I think.
Web retail has developed as I thought it would. Not to the inch but generally. It has been interesting to see it evolve.

awebapart.com

16th August 2007, 15:45

I've used Dreamwever to put the site together along with Roman Cart shopping cart which I've recently upgraded to allow me to cross sell.

I would say the biggest advantage of doing the site yourself is that you have total control. My design and layout changes as I learn new techniques (or more importantly when I find time to play). I can add and remove products at a moments notice.

You have a nice looking site Sue. Some of the design and layout advantages you mention are related to your particular DIY approach of using a web design package to create the site, with hooks into the roman cart external basket. They are not advantages that everyone would get when going with any DIY ecommerce route since most people would be using advanced fully integrated ecommerce systems instead - which do give you constraints on design and layout.

The dreamweaver/romancart approach is fine if you can firstly afford Dreamweaver (around £350), and you want complete control over your design, you dont mind an external basket, you don't need any advanced features that an advanced integrated ecommerce system provides, and you do not have too many products to manage. I would have guessed that it is more difficult to manage once you have lots of products.

You say you can add products at a moments notice. How are you managing the product content Sue? If you add a new product don't you have to do something over a romancart, get some romancart HTML code, then create another product page in dreamweaver, edit that, paste the roman cart code into the page, and edit the category page so that the new product is also inserted there, test the new pages, then upload the pages to your server? With an integrated ecommerce system, essentially all you do is create a new product.

RedEvo

16th August 2007, 20:51

and I'm on the first page of Google for several of my most important terms as we come up to the first anniversary of the site being live.

Are these terms you KNOW your customers are using or terms you have decided they might be using?

Not being aggressive here just making sure you've looked at the terms in the round ;) It's easy to get a Google page 1 position 1 for a a 'term' it's the ones people actually use you need to work on.

Sorry if I've taught my granny to suck eggs :)

d

Steve2507

16th August 2007, 23:12

I would say the biggest advantage of doing the site yourself is that you have total control. My design and layout changes as I learn new techniques (or more importantly when I find time to play). I can add and remove products at a moments notice.

The down side is that initially it is time consuming to put the site together plus you could argue that the look and feel of our shop is very basic.

Personally I couldn't imagine handing my site over to a designer because we are a small company and I would not take the risk that my hard work over the last five years could all go up in smoke.

I agree with the above quote, I like total control and our shop may seem basic, but it works plus our customers like our basic approach.

We changed our old software which created html pages to a database run system at the beginning of this year. Our old site was much more "fancy" than our new site and after polling our customers guess which one they preferred - the new "basic" one (89%).

Most of the really successful sites have a basic construction, so don't knock the "amateurish" approach.

My advice to anyone looking at setting up in e-tail is (unless you have oodles of cash burning a hole in your pocket) to set it up yourself so that you can learn the basic ropes of building a site and running an online business. Then when/if the time comes to bring in outside agencies you know what to ask them.

After all, website designers and SEO's had to start somewhere, so why can't someone else learn it as well?

This is no disrespect to designers, but I have spoken to a lot of designers and e-tailers over the years and it is amazing how many e-tailers say they don't/won't go to a designer and prefer to keep everything in house, whilst designers always seem to say that you shouldn't do it yourself and you should go to them, because you will earn more money that way.

Question - if by going to a designer you will earn more money, by selling items that are readily available from a supplier, why is the designer designing your site? Wouldn't it make more financial sense for the designer to design their own retail site and make some serious cash? Have many designers done this?

I am not knocking all designers or SEOs here, as I know a few excellent ones who will help, but I still prefer to keep most of the work on our site in house. I also know some technical guys who are very helpful (a few of them from here who answerd my request earlier this week for server help) and I will go to them if I need help. But because we are a small company, when we do get outside help (which is getting more frequent now we have grown) it is always for smaller projects to complement our main business.

Because I know exactly how our business has been set up (after all I have done it) I can put back in place anything that has gone wrong, isn't quite right, doesn't work, we don't like the look of or has been completely messed up.

Sorry for the length of this, but my final statement is do it yourself first then if you grow look at outsde help maybe in the future.

Oh - sorry if this upsets anyone but a forum is for posting our own opinions.

Are these terms you KNOW your customers are using or terms you have decided they might be using?

We are also on the first page for many of our main keywords (one for a phrase that returns 97 million results). And yes we KNOW these are terms our customers are using. Guess how we know this because we learnt how to find out the information, just as you learnt.

RedEvo

16th August 2007, 23:17

I wonder if these guys (http://www.annsummers.com/) did there own website?

d

JJ the BC

16th August 2007, 23:28

The attention to detail and the little things designers stress about but others would just pass by on. (In regards to original post)

sirearl

16th August 2007, 23:45

Question - if by going to a designer you will earn more money, by selling items that are readily available from a supplier, why is the designer designing your site? Wouldn't it make more financial sense for the designer to design their own retail site and make some serious cash? Have many designers done this

Good post Steve,but as you say its taken you 5 years of work to get there,and not everyone has the time or ability to do it.So pro designers are needed.

I started off knocking up sites for other people and doing SEO,but soon realized that I was not in business to make other people rich,

I now own several sites ,some in a 50/50 partnership with bricks and mortar business's.

I have to say that this avenue is only open to people who have above average SEO abilities,as if you ain't on page 1 you ain't in business.:)

Earl

ken_uk

17th August 2007, 03:12

Some people enjoy selling, some people enjoy coding, some people enoy seo, some people enjoy other things.. Each to their own.

Having the skills to create a top notch site, or promote a site to the top is not always the same as having the skills to run a business well, and vise versa...

Some people do both, they create sites, and run them.

Page

17th August 2007, 07:59

Steve2507 - I agree it is great if it is all in house but it is not always worth the time and effort or possible.

For myself it is where the split is for my business with my skills and interest and time and within my business constraints and area.

(I used to be a programmer and could quite fancy a change of career into a web site producer/developer particularly as I think that I have seen a glaring gap that will exists for about 2 years but which would then give me a long term customer base - I would buy in the design skills etc and get a team together for fast development and site creation etc)

Ken_uk - exactly - not just enjoy but are also very good at. There is often overlap but not always.

Steve2507

17th August 2007, 08:54

I wonder if these guys (http://www.annsummers.com/) did there own website?

Probably not, but they were recently ranked bottom as the least most usable website of the top UK companies.

So bad example.

Steve2507

17th August 2007, 09:26

Don't get me wrong I am not knocking all designers.

You just have to be realistic as Page saidFor myself it is where the split is for my business with my skills and interest and time and within my business constraints and area.You have to make sure you can do the job, but how do you know if you can/can't do it if you don't try and by trying you will learn much more than by being told what to do.

Having the skills to create a top notch site, or promote a site to the top is not always the same as having the skills to run a business well, and vise versa...

Some people do both, they create sites, and run them.

Again, how do you know if you can/can't do it if you don't try and by trying you will learn much more than by being told what to do.

taken you 5 years of work to get there
Sorry I probably said it wrong. We have been in business for 5 years, we reached the top for many of our main search terms within 1-2 years and the company began paying me back for the money I had invested after about 20 months.

I started off knocking up sites for other people and doing SEO,but soon realized that I was not in business to make other people rich,

I now own several sites ,some in a 50/50 partnership with bricks and mortar business's.
Nice one Earl. That is the sort of thing I like to hear. That is how I started.

My main problem with a lot of designers (not all) is that they will tell people how to do things in an e-tail environment, but they don't often put their money where their mouth is.

The attention to detail and the little things designers stress about but others would just pass by on.
I disagree. As the site is for your own livelihood you stress over it more than someone who is being paid a fee for the work.

sirearl

17th August 2007, 09:51

awebapart.com

17th August 2007, 12:42

We changed our old software which created html pages to a database run system at the beginning of this year. Our old site was much more "fancy" than our new site and after polling our customers guess which one they preferred - the new "basic" one (89%).
That's a great anecdote (and I'm sure I'll refer to your post in the future). It shows that eyecandy isn't everything. There is the argument that if you had not gone the DIY route, a good supplier might have recommended the more appropriate system from day 1. There are so many choices, so many ways of doing things, and so many pitfalls and so many red herrings, that you could take the DIY trial and error approach (which is a useful learning experience in its own right), but a good supplier should help you avoid the mistakes from day 1 (which in your case might have been a better system 4 years earlier).

After all, website designers and SEO's had to start somewhere, so why can't someone else learn it as well?
Ecommerce is more than just web design and SEO. Even if you just consider the technical aspects it is also about web/software development, reading the software market, understanding software architectures (of ecommerce systems, their underlying systems like databases and server development environments, the internet and browser architecture, search engine architectures), making the right strategic choices, future-proofing, choosing systems with future roadmaps and longevity (which is why our solution is based on our custom version of osCommerce).

Yes we all had to start somewhere, and I started learning things useful to my chosen profession and useful to what I know now as a solution designer/developer back in around 1983 and since 1983 my education and my work experience has been focused and geared around improving my skills in designing/developing/delivering solutions.

Question - if by going to a designer you will earn more money, by selling items that are readily available from a supplier, why is the designer designing your site? Wouldn't it make more financial sense for the designer to design their own retail site and make some serious cash? Have many designers done this?
That is a good question, and it can be applied to many consulting/training/service professions. On the one hand there is the issue of doing what you like to do and what you are good at. On the other hand there is the more cynical view that whenever there is perceived gold in them thar hills in any industry, it is the service industries, the people selling pick axes, that make the money (and it is often them that are the ones saying there is gold in them thar hills in the first place)! Personally, if I was in my profession for the money, I would still be working on boring financial systems for investment banks in the city. I gave up this as a 'get out of London' downsizing lifestyle change in 1998 for something more creative and challenging, developing games (http://www.abstractworlds.com) (which we have sold online from 1998), but this was a step too far, not financially viable, even on a downsized lifestyle. So my company has now reached a happy medium with creative, challenging, financially viable web design/development.

We have been in business for 5 years, we reached the top for many of our main search terms within 1-2 years and the company began paying me back for the money I had invested after about 20 months.
We are finding that with some of our clients, page 1 ranking for popular yet realistic searches should be possible far earlier than that, within weeks or months in some cases. Again perhaps this is because we don't have to go through the trial and error process that some DIYers have to go through as part of the leaning process.

My main problem with a lot of designers (not all) is that they will tell people how to do things in an e-tail environment, but they don't often put their money where their mouth is.
The 'say as I say not as I do' mentality. I can understand this, which is why we made the concious effort to use our sitebuilder/ecommerce system ourselves for our site. (We have also been selling our games online since 1998, but the way we do this isn't relevant to most ecommerce businesses)

Even if a supplier doesn't do ecommerce directly themselves, they do it indirectly via their clients. If you select a supplier with a good ecommerce portfolio, you will be gaining access to the collective wisdom that supplier has gained in ecommerce through their other ecommerce projects. For a startup business looking to open an online shop, just getting an approachable supplier who knows about small companies and has been there and done that with their company, will help, at least it means that the startup is not on their own doing the DIY thing.

To DIY or not to DIY? It is all horses for courses, what is right for one business is not necessarily right for another one. There are pros and cons to each approach and a lot is down to making the right choices, either choosing the right supplier for the non-DIY route or choosing the right supplier/tools for the DIY route.

sirearl

17th August 2007, 13:42

Paul you must have been one of the original pasty faced computer nerds in 1983 ;)

agree with Paul I would not dream of trying to build an E-commerce site,when there are so many good ready made solutions out there.

Also data bases,it would be a complete waste of my time and energy.

I do SEO fast and moderatly successfully,and build pretty basic sites for the sole purpose of generating traffic that is driven to our pro built e-commerce shops.

I do believe there is no e-commerce site that can compare with a basic html site for obtaining SE rankings.

anyhow I drift ,point is it is usually cheaper to employ a skilled person in most areas than to try the d.i.y route,when labour and time is taken into account.

what a ramble one of me alzheimer's days :)

Earl

awebapart.com

17th August 2007, 14:24

Paul you must have been one of the original pasty faced computer nerds in 1983 ;)
Not really. Nerd is an unfortunate stereotype associate with IT people, which not everybody conforms to, especially the more rounded ones who have to talk to clients and provide business solutions. I did attend a Microsoft seminar hosted by Bill Gates back in the 1990's, now he does fit the nerd stereotype!

Afaia

17th August 2007, 15:32

Page

I think it is a perfectly acceptable idea for you to build your own 'test site' to find out what you want from it. You can then use this information when commissioning a professional. You may find that you need specialists to handle the bits that you cannot do / are not interested in doing, while still keeping some 'hands on' yourself. A good copywriter or graphic designer may be essential and these SEO people certainly reckon they are invaluable too!

I think you will find out for yourself (by trial and error) where the dividing line is between what you can do and what you should employ people to do. Most intelligent people would make a sensible decision about when to go to the doctor and when to buy an 'over the counter' medicine, so I don't see why an intelligent person cannot make a sensible decision about when to employ a web developer and when his/her skills are adequate.

A lot depends upon the type of business you have, who your potential clients are etc. If you absolutely HAVE to have a really professional looking site with full ecommerce from the start maybe DIY is inappropriate. But for many businesses I think that good content and promotion are the key things and you may well be able to do that yourself with the aid of the right software and some helpful advice from friends.

There are loads of terrible DIY sites out there but I think there are also some good ones that are performing well for small businesses that know what they are doing.

Let me tell you my experience of this from the point of view of a business owner not a web developer.

Like you, I also have an IT background. I have a good Computer Science degree and first started messing around with the Internet and web sites in the States in the 80s - just for fun, nothing to do with my work, which was systems analysis and programming.

Later I became involved in working in Britain with small businesses who were developing an Internet presence. Not designing the sites, but helping them to draw up specifications for design companies to build the sites for them. Part of what I did was to find out what worked by reading, attending conferences, and just learning by experience.

When I first 'retired' (Ha!) and started this business I did our own web site using Dreamweaver for about 3 years. It was a great way to find out what we needed and what worked and what didn't. It was certainly not as good as a pro would do but I am artistic as well as technically minded, and knew roughly what I was doing. It saved money but took quite a lot of time.

The key thing is whether it worked and brought in business, which it did. We have grown nicely with marketing purely via the Internet.

Last December I decided we had reached the level where we needed a professional site. I no longer had the time, or knowledge of recent developments, to implement a lot of the things that I wanted to add to our web site. I found a company through this forum (Creospace) and they developed a new website for me from my design brief.

The new site has been very successful and I think it has already paid for the money spent on it.

The down side is that it is not so easy for me to experiment with the site in the way that I used to. Perhaps I will go for a full Content Management System in the longer term.

The ups are that I saved weeks of time which I would have to have spent to create the features that I wanted on the site, it looks much more professional, everything works 99% of the time and if something goes wrong, I don't have to fix it!

Although I value the opinion of my developer, I am much more knowledgeable about what I want because of my own experience with doing the site, and I think this make for a more informed dialogue with him.

I have recently been playing around with a blog http://aegeansailing.wordpress.com which I really enjoy. I am amazed at how easy it is to get something that looks professional and can be updated so quickly.

I'm thinking of having it incorporated into our web site - and guess what - I can ask the designer rather than spending time working out how to do it myself. That leaves my time free to work on other aspects of the business that no-one else can do.

I'd encourage you to learn as much as you can about marketing in general, and Internet marketing in particular. (I think that a lot of the hype you read just boils down to good marketing).

Then by all means put your feet in the water and have a go yourself first. Good luck.

Melody

Sue F

17th August 2007, 16:25

The dreamweaver/romancart approach is fine if you can firstly afford Dreamweaver (around £350), and you want complete control over your design, you dont mind an external basket, you don't need any advanced features that an advanced integrated ecommerce system provides, and you do not have too many products to manage. I would have guessed that it is more difficult to manage once you have lots of products.

You say you can add products at a moments notice. How are you managing the product content Sue? If you add a new product don't you have to do something over a romancart, get some romancart HTML code, then create another product page in dreamweaver, edit that, paste the roman cart code into the page, and edit the category page so that the new product is also inserted there, test the new pages, then upload the pages to your server? With an integrated ecommerce system, essentially all you do is create a new product.

Thanks for your kind comments Paul.

Out of interest what kind of advanced features would an advanced integrated ecommerce system provide me with?

I have stock control which keeps a record of stock sold and will not allow products to be sold if they are out of stock. It also reduces the quantity and adds a message to alert the customer if they try to order more of a particular product than we have available.

I can choose from quite a large number of shipping options. We've just changed from total order value to weight based. Weighing everything took a while but changing shipping on the cart was quick and easy.

I can add a message to warn customers if the shop needs to be closed for any reason and disable the add to basket buttons.

I have around 250 products and setting up the product manager was straight forward and relatively quick to do. Even when I upgraded to include a cross sell function it didn't take long to add the feature.

"Moments notice" was a bit of artistic licence on my part ... what I mean is I don't have to contact someone to do it for me and wait until my turn in their list of jobs plus I can add products myself on an evening or weekend if I want to so there's no delay.

I have saved an empty product page and so I can just save the page with a new title. Simple products take very little time to add as it's just a case of inserting a photo and writing a discription. Furniture takes a little longer.

I update the product manager on the cart with the new product. There's a piece of code for the button which is already on the saved page so I just need to amend the product number to the one from the product manager.

I'd say it takes anything from fifteen minutes to an hour to add new products depending on how detailled the description needs to be, whether it's similar to something we already stock and whether I need to set up a new menu structure.

Basically I can't afford to pay someone to write me a site. Plus it's added things like with the integrated ecommerce package I initially bought the frame structure was so restrictive it meant the products were featured on a tiny part of the screen and I couldn't display things the way I wanted them.

I accept that the way I operate isn't for everyone but I also think that if people feel they would like to have a go themselves they should be aware there's nothing stopping you having a crack at it. I'm totally self taught (which I'm sure is obvious by the standard of my site:D ) and always ready to learn.

Sue F

17th August 2007, 16:27

Are these terms you KNOW your customers are using or terms you have decided they might be using?

Not being aggressive here just making sure you've looked at the terms in the round ;) It's easy to get a Google page 1 position 1 for a a 'term' it's the ones people actually use you need to work on.

Sorry if I've taught my granny to suck eggs :)

d

There's a freshly sucked egg in the post to you as we speak ;)

sirearl

17th August 2007, 17:56

A good copywriter or graphic designer may be essential and these SEO people certainly reckon they are invaluable too

No us SEO people don't reckon we are invaluable we know we are,and what do you think googles great weath is based on.I think you will find it is search engine placement ;)

You would be amazed at what SEO can do for your business,and how much it can save you in other forms of advertising.

most of the companies I work with do no other form of advertising.

nice site compliments to creospace:)

Earl

awebapart.com

17th August 2007, 18:23

Out of interest what kind of advanced features would an advanced integrated ecommerce system provide me with?
Romancart is one of the more advanced external basket solutions out there, compared to the PayPal external basket, so if you are using a static html designed website, and want an advanced external basket then Romancart is a good choice, and I have said on this forum before that it is good for certain requirements and situations (http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=28772).

However there are still fundamental limitations that both a static html website and an external basket will present you with, limitations you wont have with advanced integrated ecommerce system. An advanced integrated ecommerce system will not only give you other advanced features but also basic features that a static website/external basket cannot, for instance:

1. Integrated onsite basket, the basket runs on your website, your users aren't sent off to roman cart. This has the advantage that your website's exact branding is still there, you can have product images in the basket, your users aren't sent to another site, etc.

2. Integrated onsite search, again with the same advantages as the onsite basket

3. Onsite cross sell at product browse time, not in the basket - i.e. if you are looking at a product you can see what other products are related (what other people bought) before adding to basket

4. Customer accounts, so customers can log on to your site and track the status of their orders.

5. Orders and fulfillment admin are part of the system, part of your website, and any emails you send out to customers are from your site.

6. Product reviews - although I recommend to my customers not to enable this feature.

7. The general flexibility that a dynamic database driven site gives you over a static html site, e.g. it is easy to reorder products, reorder categories, move products around, place links to products in other categories, edit and add products without dealing with low level code that could introduce errors, easy to backup data etc A database driven site means that you focus on the data, the system creates the pages, and since you are working at a higher level it means you can do more, more quickly - which is great if you have many products or a site that changes often.

8. Since the system creates the pages it means you dont have to learn about web design, buy Dreamweaver, and learn about seo coding to create the pages. It reduces the chances of you doing something wrong - although looking at your site you have done a good job (but not everyone would do a good job like you).

I don't have to contact someone to do it for me and wait until my turn in their list of jobs plus I can add products myself on an evening or weekend if I want to so there's no delay.
Having control of your own product management is the case with most ecommerce system, since most systems have content management that allow the shop owner to add/edit content - not many suppliers want to get involved with this.

Basically I can't afford to pay someone to write me a site. Plus it's added things like with the integrated ecommerce package I initially bought the frame structure was so restrictive it meant the products were featured on a tiny part of the screen and I couldn't display things the way I wanted them.
Yes you probably don't want someone to create an ecommerce site from scratch (this was covered to some extent in the custom/bespoke topic (http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=39344)). All off the shelf integrated ecommerce systems have constraints and limitations in one way or another and that is where you have to evaluate each one's features in this area. For instance with our solution, we don't place the shop in the home page but within a section of the overall site, leaving the home page to be filled with whatever the owner wants using our generic and more flexible sitebuilder content management system rather than the shop admin system.