View Full Version : The SEO thread.
Aspect Investments
26th June 2007, 13:38
I think this forum needs a thread for SEO, so here it is.
Far too often someone mentions SEO in a thread, and then it is totally taken over by SEOs and SEO bashers, turning the thread into a free for all about the mysterious world of SEO. :D
So if anyone wants any advice, regarding any aspect of SEO, or anyone wants to debate SEO, or bad mouth SEO, you can do it on this thread.
Mods please feel free to move this thread to a more appropriate category if you feel it needs to be moved.
Or if you feel it is not needed, then please feel free to delete it :)
Paul Turner
26th June 2007, 16:57
As web developers, our experience has been that you get what you pay for. The company that calls out of the blue promising top page listings in Google within 2 weeks for £200 is very unlikely to deliver. If they do, they will often have used tactics which get your site thrown out of the search engines as soon as those methods are detected.
It really depends what business a company is working in as to whether top listings are possible. Selling mobile phones??? Forget it, companies are spending many thousands of pounds to get top listings with many companies competing for top listings for the same search terms.
Fortunately, we are not all in such a difficult business as the mobile phone companies and it IS possible to get some very good listings. There are some very reputable companies out there that will deliver good results by working with the people that created your website and suggesting the changes that are required to optimise your site.
It is amazing how many companies EXPECT their website to be easily found in Google and Yahoo the day it goes live DESPITE warnings that this can take months and is not included in the price of a basic website.
To get good listings that remain good, it is probably necessary to spend at least £2000. Considering the cost of other forms of advertising and the business that can be attracted from top listings in seach engines, this is not a lot to pay and can usually be recovered, especially by e-commerce sites very quickly.
There are reputable SEO companies out there that WILL give a money back guarantee that they DO honour in the unlikely event that they don't achieve their promise AND avoid the tactics that will get you thrown out of the search engines. Make sure that any company that you consider using is one of these reputable ones by talking to some of their previous clients.
We work with one such SEO company but I am not sure if I am allowed to mention who they are on here so I won't :)
sirearl
26th June 2007, 17:50
I think this forum needs a thread for SEO, so here it is.
Far too often someone mentions SEO in a thread, and then it is totally taken over by SEOs and SEO bashers, turning the thread into a free for all about the mysterious world of SEO. :D
So if anyone wants any advice, regarding any aspect of SEO, or anyone wants to debate SEO, or bad mouth SEO, you can do it on this thread.
SEO is the copyright Of "Sir Earl Optimization"
So if you say anything bad about SEO,my legal team will be in touch ;)
RedEvo
26th June 2007, 18:58
It is amazing how many companies EXPECT their website to be easily found in Google and Yahoo the day it goes live DESPITE warnings that this can take months and is not included in the price of a basic website.
So very true!
d
Aspect Investments
30th June 2007, 13:46
As web developers, our experience has been that you get what you pay for. The company that calls out of the blue promising top page listings in Google within 2 weeks for £200 is very unlikely to deliver. If they do, they will often have used tactics which get your site thrown out of the search engines as soon as those methods are detected.
It really depends what business a company is working in as to whether top listings are possible. Selling mobile phones??? Forget it, companies are spending many thousands of pounds to get top listings with many companies competing for top listings for the same search terms.
Fortunately, we are not all in such a difficult business as the mobile phone companies and it IS possible to get some very good listings. There are some very reputable companies out there that will deliver good results by working with the people that created your website and suggesting the changes that are required to optimise your site.
It is amazing how many companies EXPECT their website to be easily found in Google and Yahoo the day it goes live DESPITE warnings that this can take months and is not included in the price of a basic website.
To get good listings that remain good, it is probably necessary to spend at least £2000. Considering the cost of other forms of advertising and the business that can be attracted from top listings in seach engines, this is not a lot to pay and can usually be recovered, especially by e-commerce sites very quickly.
There are reputable SEO companies out there that WILL give a money back guarantee that they DO honour in the unlikely event that they don't achieve their promise AND avoid the tactics that will get you thrown out of the search engines. Make sure that any company that you consider using is one of these reputable ones by talking to some of their previous clients.
We work with one such SEO company but I am not sure if I am allowed to mention who they are on here so I won't :)
Good sensible post that Paul.
sirearl
30th June 2007, 15:05
There are reputable SEO companies out there that WILL give a money back guarantee that they DO honour in the unlikely event that they don't achieve their promise AND avoid the tactics that will get you thrown out of the search engines. Make sure that any company that you consider using is one of these reputable ones by talking to some of their previous clients.
Paul good post ,but for one aspect talking to the companies previous clients does not show there SEO ability.
It shows there ability to help those clents only,and if they have got them a top ranking for there products,then of course they are going to be delighted with them.
The mark of a top SEO company is its ability to get top rankings across a broad range of products and across a wide range of industries.
So looking at the actual results achieved by a company is far more valuable in determining a companies ability.Than a few references from there satified clients,which may be for easy keywords.
Earl
Paul Turner
30th June 2007, 18:33
Thanks for the positive feedback Earl and EBA Advisor.
Yes, Earl, I see your point, no company is going to give you the name of a dissatisfied client so that can only be PART of the reason for going with one particular SEO company.
little_stork
30th June 2007, 20:02
Great thread
I did the link check and here are my results
Google0here (http://www.google.com/search?q=link:www.littlestorkbabyboxes.co.uk)Altav ista115here (http://us.altavista.com/web/results?q=link:www.littlestorkbabyboxes.co.uk&kgs=0&kls=1)MSN0here (http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?FORM=QBRE&q=link:www.littlestorkbabyboxes.co.uk)All the Web108here (http://www.alltheweb.com/search?cat=web&_sb_lang=any&q=link:www.littlestorkbabyboxes.co.uk+-domain:www.littlestorkbabyboxes.co.uk)Yahoo102here (http://siteexplorer.search.yahoo.com/search?ei=UTF-8&p=www.littlestorkbabyboxes.co.uk&bwm=i&bwmf=u&searchbwm=Explore+URL)
I know this is rubbish but its an ongoing process. How come i dont have any for google? Also i have been trying to do some SEO on my site could you please have a look on the welsh t shirts just to see if im on the right track?
The more i read the more i get confused :-(
Thanks
Tracey
sirearl
30th June 2007, 20:57
Great thread
I did the link check and here are my results
Google0here (http://www.google.com/search?q=link:www.littlestorkbabyboxes.co.uk)Altav ista115here (http://us.altavista.com/web/results?q=link:www.littlestorkbabyboxes.co.uk&kgs=0&kls=1)MSN0here (http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?FORM=QBRE&q=link:www.littlestorkbabyboxes.co.uk)All the Web108here (http://www.alltheweb.com/search?cat=web&_sb_lang=any&q=link:www.littlestorkbabyboxes.co.uk+-domain:www.littlestorkbabyboxes.co.uk)Yahoo102here (http://siteexplorer.search.yahoo.com/search?ei=UTF-8&p=www.littlestorkbabyboxes.co.uk&bwm=i&bwmf=u&searchbwm=Explore+URL)
I know this is rubbish but its an ongoing process. How come i dont have any for google? Also i have been trying to do some SEO on my site could you please have a look on the welsh t shirts just to see if im on the right track?
The more i read the more i get confused :-(
Thanks
Tracey
Your on the right lines Tracey :)
I would also put "for sale" and "tea" in your title ,as it is common for this misspelling.
You probably do have links to google but they may only show with a google sitemap.
Earl
little_stork
30th June 2007, 22:46
Earl
Thanks for the feedback. Thanks the lord im doin somethin right lol.
I would also put "for sale" and "tea" in your title ,as it is common for this misspelling. is that my browser title or metadescription?
You probably do have links to google but they may only show with a google sitemap I have pasted google sitemap to my homepage as per google webmaster section do i need to do anything else?
Sorry for all the questions :-)
Tracey
sirearl
30th June 2007, 22:51
Earl
Thanks for the feedback. Thanks the lord im doin somethin right lol.
I would also put "for sale" and "tea" in your title ,as it is common for this misspelling. is that my browser title or metadescription?
You probably do have links to google but they may only show with a google sitemap I have pasted google sitemap to my homepage as per google webmaster section do i need to do anything else?
Sorry for all the questions :-)
Tracey
Browser title
have you verified your xml sitemap?
Earl
little_stork
30th June 2007, 22:54
yes i have but i dont see anything different - should i?
Tracey
sirearl
30th June 2007, 23:01
yes i have but i dont see anything different - should i?
Tracey
you should now bw able to go into your google account and look at your stats e.t.c ?
little_stork
30th June 2007, 23:04
thanks earl will have a look ..
sirearl
1st July 2007, 12:28
What is SEO?
Mandy
here's a starter http://www.webcredible.co.uk/user-friendly-resources/search-engine-optimisation/basics.shtml
be prepared for some serious confusion :)
Earl
Thanx - that may come in handy as weve just launched our website - thefurnitureseller.co.uk- which has been optimized ( not by me of course)
cheers
mandy
sirearl
1st July 2007, 13:37
Thanx - that may come in handy as weve just launched our website - thefurnitureseller.co.uk- which has been optimized ( not by me of course)
cheers
mandy
Mandy I can see very little optimization on your site,so you may want to have a chat with someone.:)
Earl
Fireside
1st July 2007, 20:29
Earl
Can you tell by just looking at site if it has been optimized.
Ann
sirearl
1st July 2007, 20:57
Earl
Can you tell by just looking at site if it has been optimized.
Ann
I would hope so Ann or how could I optimize it properly ;)
Earl
Fireside
1st July 2007, 21:25
No ideal Earl, that's why I asked
sirearl
1st July 2007, 21:47
No ideal Earl, that's why I asked
Sorry Ann did not meant to be facetious.An SEO is able to tell if ,and to what extent a site has been optimized and for what keywords
How many links there are to that site and who is linking to them ,as well as the search engines assessment of that site.
plus a lot of other stuff.
Earl
Fireside
1st July 2007, 22:22
Hi Earl
Thanks for the info, I'm just new to SEO and this Forum but learning lots. I'm having a website developed, should be ready in the next few week so just wanted to learn a bit about SEO. I'm sure the developers know all there is to know about SEO but a bit of inside information will not go wrong.
Thanks
Ann
sendit.co.uk
1st July 2007, 22:41
It appears that everyone is sharing good advice here - I have a new site and was wondering whether anybody could advise me as to whether my SEO is on the right track?
Also, out of curiousity, how much should one expect to pay to have a website optimised?
Trevor
Aspect Investments
2nd July 2007, 10:14
Hi Earl
Thanks for the info, I'm just new to SEO and this Forum but learning lots. I'm having a website developed, should be ready in the next few week so just wanted to learn a bit about SEO. I'm sure the developers know all there is to know about SEO but a bit of inside information will not go wrong.
Thanks
Ann
Hi Ann, it would be worth speaking to your website designer about SEO before your website is finished.
Lots of designers do not SEO a new site for a customer as part of the package. Mostly because they do not know what to do.
You can not assume that your designer knows what hes doing regarding SEO, and that your site will be SEOd to an acceptable level.
SEO is crucial to the success of your site, so speak to your designer today. And dont let them fob you off with. "oh yes thats all part of the package" Ask them what keywords they are optimizing your site for, and have they researched those keywords for suitability.
Fireside
2nd July 2007, 22:51
Hi
Thanks for the advice, let you know how I get on when I speak to the designers.
Ann
Paul Turner
3rd July 2007, 00:45
The reason that most web designers don't optimise a website is that the work involved in researching the keywords, setting up external links into the site, optimising the site, reporting on the results of that optimisation and then adapting according to performance would prevent them from being able to come up with a competitive price against the competition.
With the lack of understanding that most businesses have of the need for SEO, they would not get sufficient work to stay in business.
It is therefore necessary for web developers to quote for building the website and advise their client that getting top listings is a separate service altogether, one that is likely to cost more than the creation of the website itself.
Unfortunately most businesses are reluctant to spend money on optimisation because they all seem to have a nephew or such other that is an expert on getting their site to the top of the listings. This is usually followed by an e-mail insisting that the right meta tags will guarantee a number 1 listing in Google by tomorrow!
No matter how many times you tell a client that top listings in Google are not part of the design service you will face the inevitable 'I can't find our site' a few days after it is completed :)
My personal view is that SEO is separate to web design and very few companies can do both well from what I have seen. You don't get your printer to do your marketing, why expect your web designer to?
sandpetra
3rd July 2007, 05:08
Well said Paul. Just because someone knows how to make a website (even a seo-friendly site), doesnt mean they know a thing about some of the most important elements of seo - link building, or link bait, or indeed marketing.
Web design (& development) is a skill set. SEO is a skill set. Two totally different arts that "cross over" in places.
Policeman. Fireman. :)
Aspect Investments
4th July 2007, 10:36
Web design (& development) is a skill set. SEO is a skill set. Two totally different arts that "cross over" in places.
Policeman. Fireman. :)
I work on SEO and my partner works on coding and design.
He knows a bit about SEO, and I know a bit about coding and design, but he sticks to his job and I stick to mine. :)
sirearl
4th July 2007, 10:53
Well said Paul. Just because someone knows how to make a website (even a seo-friendly site), doesnt mean they know a thing about some of the most important elements of seo - link building, or link bait, or indeed marketing.
Web design (& development) is a skill set. SEO is a skill set. Two totally different arts that "cross over" in places.
Policeman. Fireman. :)
Not so sure on that one ,a good SEO has to have a pretty good level of knowledge about web design.
As its better for the SEO to be able to instruct the web designer on various aspects of a site to gain maximum rankngs ;)
Earl
johnm12345
4th July 2007, 10:54
message for Paul.
Could you send me the details of your seo company in a private message. When I get my sites to page 1 they never stay for very long and I don't know why.
John
http:www.leansmountworms.com/wormery.htm
http:www.directink.biz/lexmark.htm
Mark-UK
4th July 2007, 11:04
Good rankings in google are influenced by what other sites say about you, not so much what your site says about itself. I've been doing seo and ppc for 7 years and the amount of web designers who frown upon seo people is amazing, they wack in some metatags and think thats it. Then when I come along requesting all these changes they usually go crying to the site owner.
SEO is a two phase thing, first phase is the initial onsite optimisation then the offsite optimisation then once the first batch of new rankings appears you can see where you need to work on certain areas.
I fell into seo by accident and just stayed with it, I'm still amazed that people spend 10k+ on a site then sit back and wonder why nobody visits.
I once did a proposal for a client, in the meeting he said im going to get someone inhouse to do the links to cut down my fee. They spent ages doing it and did it all wrong, total waste of time, made it all the more funny there a 25 million pound a year store so it's not like they had no money.
sandpetra
4th July 2007, 11:06
Earl - I was a web designer for eight years - right into accessibility et all. I've built colleges, universities and NHS sites by hand - this isnt the best use of my time now I am an seo (which i only started calling myself last year after 6 years of doing it).
But my passion isnt web design any more - ie - I'm not learning something every day about it like I try and do with seo.
I think professional web designers with a passion are better web designers than a lot of seos.
Of course to seo I think you need a full skillset.
The point is - a web designer does not an seo make. An seo does not an expert web designer make.
There is a couple of seo companies out there I trained up last year in both web design and seo who now claim to be experts - it's a joke.
sirearl
4th July 2007, 11:52
Earl - I was a web designer for eight years - right into accessibility et all. I've built colleges, universities and NHS sites by hand - this isnt the best use of my time now I am an seo (which i only started calling myself last year after 6 years of doing it).
But my passion isnt web design any more - ie - I'm not learning something every day about it like I try and do with seo.
I think professional web designers with a passion are better web designers than a lot of seos.
Of course to seo I think you need a full skillset.
The point is - a web designer does not an seo make. An seo does not an expert web designer make.
There is a couple of seo companies out there I trained up last year in both web design and seo who now claim to be experts - it's a joke.
Now we know why the NHS is so F**ked up and kids come out of university unable to spell ;)
I was not suggesting that an SEO be a top notch designer,but that he should have a profound knowledge of what design elements are useless to a sites ranking.
Also knowledge of how and what a SE considers important in the way a page is presented to the bots.
Earl
and Mark links are not the most important thing in obtaining a high ranking .
genius is and thats the preserve of the scottish nation,look at your history of inventions:D
Mark-UK
4th July 2007, 11:55
I never said links are the most important thing in seo.
sandpetra
4th July 2007, 11:56
Now we know why the NHS is so F**ked up and kids come out of university unable to spell ;)
LOL - Totally agree.
sirearl
4th July 2007, 16:24
I never said links are the most important thing in seo.
Apologies Mark must have read it to quick .:redface:
Earl
Aspect Investments
6th July 2007, 13:12
I think links are the most important factor for obtaining a high ranking.
What else would be more important than that?
sirearl
6th July 2007, 13:19
I think links are the most important factor for obtaining a high ranking.
What else would be more important than that?
Being a genius like me :D
age of site
how well the SEO is done
quantity of traffic
quality of the links that you have
and a few other things ;)
P.S I never said I was a clever genius :rolleyes:
Earl
Aspect Investments
6th July 2007, 13:26
Those things are important Earl, but not as important as backlinks. In my opinion.
Paul Turner
6th July 2007, 13:30
CONTENT is most important, the use of the most appropriate words. There is no point at all having a website selling CDs and coming top of Google for a search on dog baskets!!!
Aspect Investments
6th July 2007, 13:31
CONTENT is most important, the use of the most appropriate words. There is no point at all having a website selling CDs and coming top of Google for a search on dog baskets!!!
Yeah Paul, but you wont come up for dog baskets if you got no backlinks ;)
Paul Turner
6th July 2007, 13:37
Yeah, but you won't care :)
sirearl
6th July 2007, 13:39
Those things are important Earl, but not as important as backlinks. In my opinion.
No 2 on google for "sea doo spares" If you can find me more than 2 backlinks I will be gratefull
http://www.seadoospares.com/
N0 1 is us to :)
sirearl
6th July 2007, 13:48
Yeah Paul, but you wont come up for dog baskets if you got no backlinks ;)
Oh No :p
http://search.msn.co.uk/results.aspx?q=dolls+houses&FORM=MSNH&mkt=en-gb
Aspect Investments
6th July 2007, 14:36
The point I was trying to make was if you dont have any backlinks your not going to get found by Google, no matter what you are trying to come up for.
So essentially, in my opinion, backlinks or at least one backlink is the most important thing.
What was the question again? :D
sirearl
6th July 2007, 14:49
The point I was trying to make was if you dont have any backlinks your not going to get found by Google, no matter what you are trying to come up for.
So essentially, in my opinion, backlinks or at least one backlink is the most important thing.
What was the question again? :D
No you can do it without any backlinks if you submit directly to the search engines :D
what a great bit of backsliding you did use plural which is more than one in my book:)
But on a serious note links from the right sites are gold dust.
I have some from the NHS and Wikipedia which are probably worth 100's if not 1,000's from more mundane sites
Earl
Mandy I can see very little optimization on your site,so you may want to have a chat with someone.:)
Earl
Can someone please explain why my site is not optimised, my web designer asked for key phrases and we gave them. I cant expect him to know about our business and what search phrases should be used.
Does it have a backlink? I'm seeing him on monday, can anyone advise on any questions I should ask or perhaps tell him what i need for the site now.
www.thefurnitureseller.co.uk (http://www.thefurnitureseller.co.uk)
p.s we are going to be paying approx £30 per month for the optimisation - not a lot i know.
mandy
p.s Thanx
UKSBD
7th July 2007, 16:33
It is very well optimised.
A few things could be done different, but like you say if they don't know
your business and your market, they can't be expected to get it all right.
I would go so far to say, it is one of the best new sites I have seen for a long
time.
Put another nought on the end of your monthly SEO budget to run your
link campaign for 6 months and your site should do well.
Aspect Investments
7th July 2007, 16:42
Its hard to know whether your site is optimized correctly without knowing your keywords, phrases.
Thanx for you advice but what couls be done different?
Mandy
UKSBD
7th July 2007, 17:16
Things like "Furniture (Conservatory)" should be "Conservatory Furniture"
"Furniture (Garden)" should be "Garden Furniture" etc. etc.
You should also have made a couple of other categories
"Oak furniture" and "Pine Furniture"
Then, using this page as an example,
http://www.thefurnitureseller.co.uk/prods/291.html
Where you have the link saying
"View other items in the Breton Range"
You could have also had a link saying
"View other Pine Coffe Tables"
They would ultimately lead back to the same content pages, but it just gives
the engines another direct route to the content.
RedEvo
7th July 2007, 17:19
Have you researched to see what people who buy your products actually search for?
d
Thanx for that brilliant info UKSBD
Redevo - dont mean to sound thick but how do i do that?
mandy x
sirearl
7th July 2007, 19:01
Its hard to know whether your site is optimized correctly without knowing your keywords, phrases.
well at a guess I would say its about furniture :rolleyes:
5 instances of the word appear on the index page title,Google and Co are not going to be to pleased with that :D
Earl
Earl
Could you please elaborate - i take it your talking about my site - thefurnitureseller.co.uk
mandy
sirearl
7th July 2007, 21:09
Earl
Could you please elaborate - i take it your talking about my site - thefurnitureseller.co.uk
mandy
search engines have rules about certain aspects on how they rank sites 5 times the word furniture in your title will be considered spamming the search engine.
Earl
Aspect Investments
8th July 2007, 10:32
I would agree with that.
Thanx for that i will see to it asap
mandy
sirearl
9th July 2007, 10:20
Thanx for that brilliant info UKSBD
Redevo - dont mean to sound thick but how do i do that?
mandy x
first thing find what people actualy search for here just register then its free
http://www.keyworddiscovery.com/
Earl
jali
10th July 2007, 20:29
Thanx Earl for your advice, i will try that.
mandy
RayB
11th July 2007, 18:27
At first I thought "Yawn" - another SEO thread - but:
Web Design - Content/Copy - Great Offer - SEO:
These 4 things work in tandem. What do I mean?
1. You might have the best offer on the web - but nobody will find you - unless you are on P1 or using PPC. (You need SEO)
2. You are on page 1 organically, have a great offer, but still low sales ( You need copy writing, better site layout but no SEO)
3. You have 5 visitors per day but 4 orders (You have got the content, nav and offer spot on - you don't need anyting BUT SEO )
The point is - if you have a great product, presented well, at a great price - the sales will come and SEO will puch you into orbit.
If you have not got the first bit right then SEO is useless
e.g. - During wimbledon fortnight I take a full page ad in a daily broadsheet selling "strawberries for £25 a pot" for several grand
and my competitor places an ad in the London evening Standard or Wimbledon Local Rag selling "special offer on Strawberries - 50% off - Hurry - £1.99" - who wins - and who gets best ROI?
sirearl
11th July 2007, 19:15
e.g. - During wimbledon fortnight I take a full page ad in a daily broadsheet selling "strawberries for £25 a pot" for several grand
and my competitor places an ad in the London evening Standard or Wimbledon Local Rag selling "special offer on Strawberries - 50% off - Hurry - £1.99" - who wins - and who gets best ROI?
Good post
Th geezer flogging the cream at £2 quid a throw :)
Aspect Investments
13th July 2007, 13:40
I read an article the other day, and it said that Google's algo was leaning more toward quantity of backlinks, rather than quality. Anyone else heard this?
It would be a bit of a bummer for everyone that paid for Google bowling. :)
cqueen
13th July 2007, 14:25
So.
Who can recomend a company producing quality websites (£700 - £1000) that also specialise in SEO?
Quite frankly this whole google business puts me in a bad mood!
cqueen
13th July 2007, 14:27
LOL - guess I should look in google and see who comes out on top!
sirearl
13th July 2007, 15:13
So.
Who can recomend a company producing quality websites (£700 - £1000) that also specialise in SEO?
Quite frankly this whole google business puts me in a bad mood!
yep its a total minefield for people looking for SEO.
as I have said before who comes top in google for SEO is no indication of how good they are at getting your product to the top;)