Held over a barrel

[cmjim]

Hi I'm a newbie to the forum.

I am a partner in a small chocolate manufacturer and part of our busines was to sell our products online.

We designed our own website using a basic page builder package and knew we needed a profesional eccommerce site.

We live in a remote area and qualified for a 50 % grant for our website from the local enterprise agency. The enterprise agency recommended a local company (we are are in a rural and remote area with few Web companies operating here) who we approached. They quoted around the maximan grant 3700 which included an eccommerce platform with worldpay, this include a content management system, 8 static pages, shopping basket and a backend mangement system for orders etc.

We thought the company the company quoted in the region as they knew we qualified fot the grant.

Thus being a small start up we looked for a cheaper alternative.

We approached a chap who had moved into our village who we knewran a company with a business partner. He does the programming and his partner graphic/web design.

Our looked the quote and spec and thought it was on the high side and said his company would develop a bespoke system for our business.

Thus the we decided to go with them although no contarct was signed.
They worked on the website to be lauched in time for Christmas sales (end Dec)

Thy siad time was an issue and the site would be basic but we could take the orders and payment was via paypal.

We had a number of complaints from customers regarding the site as many felt it was confusing. We also had issues with paypal.

At the end of December we recieved a invoice for an amount close to 3700 including VAT. They originally ommited the VAT in their original quote. The hosting cost had gone from £25 per annum to £50.

After recieving the bill I discusssed these issues with our neighbour. He said the project had taken them longer and we had only been billed for half the time they had worked on the project. He said the VAT was an error on their part but still sought the payment for it.
HE also said that the project was 2/3 complete.
Iasked about a content management system so that we could update the site our new page etc. He said it wasn't part of the spec and would cost extra. We took this for given and we updated our news on a weekly basis on our old site. He was happy because this was their first eccommrce site aand the experience gained would make it easier when it comes to thier next project.
He also mentioned that their houly rate had gon up from £25 to £30 (+VAT)
previously they had failed to mention VAT as above.

I feel we are paying for their learning curve and they have been unfair. We are held over a barrel as they are hosting our website on their servers. We feel stuck as we can ill afford to go over budget and wary if cost spiral as they encounter more problems with our web site.

Any advice would be graetly appreciated
James
cocoamountain. co. uk

[Wayne47]

Hi,

In the past ive looked into have a website built by some companys but was never that impressed with the small print in the contracts & also the fact that the companys always wanted to update the site for me, yet again another cost that my small startup did not need?

I would never pay for a bad job & also using you as a learning curve for there next job at your expense I a little cheeky to say the least.

There are plenty of good diy shopping carts which are easy to build & have a good admin section to proccess your orders. in the past ive used actinicexpress for a few sites ive done for friends of mine they seem to be doing ok so far but there also other options which Ive found on this forum which are fantastic & excellent value for money, all you have to do is put in some hard work to build as its a bit of a learning curve.

Do you own the domain name?

If you decide to build your own site using one of these diy site builders check out this forum for various packages, there are some fantastic people on this forum who will point you in the right direction.

Please feel free to email me if you get stuck with any of your images as I will try my best to help you out, Hope you get things sorted sonn and business is going well.

Regards Wayne,
Product Photography & Printing

[cmjim]

Hi thanks for your advice

we own the domain but it is hosted on their server? Can we get it back ?

theyt have pulled our website today

[andysears]

I note your domain is with fasthost. Get them to change the dns servers for you as you are currently advertising their website as its pointing to themselves.

[Wayne47]

if You own the domain name contact fast hosts today ASAP, if I were you I would change the pass word on your fast hosts account so they carnt get access to any more of your details? are they hosting your site on there servers? or is it hosted through fast hosts? if you own the webspace I would put up a holding page with your contact details on untill you get things sorted.

If you need any help with a holding page PM me,

Regards Wayne

[awebapart.com]

I'm sorry to hear about your unfortunate situation.

First and very important question, is the shop you want a business-to-business e-commerce system, or a business-to-consumer system. If it is the former then these are very complicated and niche. If it is the latter, i.e. you want a website where you can sell online to the public, then this is easier, more common. I will assume the latter for this post.

Getting an online shop is a big undertaking and when looking for a supplier you really need one who has done something similar before, and therefore has sites you can look at, sites you would be happy with, and clients you can talk to.

It is admirable that you wanted to go for local suppliers but if they dont meet these simple criteria then it isn't such a good idea, as you have found.

Unfortunately there are just some companies out there that give the rest of us a bad name. You should be especially suspicious of those that ask or know what your budget is as some will miraculously quote the same, regardless of what you actually need or how much it actually costs them. Some companies have good intentions, but simply do not have the experience or skills to deliver the final system, or simply underestimates the work involved thinking it will be easier than it really is, or over-estimates their own capabilities.

My company offers a managed advanced e-commerce service that puts you in control of the content management and costs £250+VAT per annum including web hosting. Since it is a one-stop-shop we deliver a fully working system from day 1 (it doesn't take us long to set up, and we are happy to set it up for you to try before you buy). We have live client websites, and happy customers you could talk to. This price assumes that you source the product photos. It is possible for non-technical people to get good shops online at this price, there are other companies offering online shop services in this price range too, including ekmpowershop and easywebstore. Just think how much money you would have left in your budget if you originally went for one of these services, enough money to spend on some professional product photography (if required), and other marketing exercises for your launch.

If you are interested in our solution please get in touch. It would be good if we could supply what you need, as I'd like to help turn your unfortunate situation around.

p.s. they may not only have you over a barrel with web hosting, depending on your contract they probably own what they have developed too, and as such you cannot take the code away and get someone else to fix/finish it (probably not a good idea anyway since it doesn't sound like the ideal starting point)

[awebapart.com]

If you own the domain you should have been given access to a control panel at fasthosts when you purchased the domain. As long as you still have this, and you haven't given your supplier the login details you should be OK. You will probably have to reset the nameservers from deepserver etc to the default fasthost one to get your standard fasthost holding page back.

If your supplier set up the domain, then you will have to ask them to hand it over to either yourself or your next supplier, this is usually done by the new recipient having an account (free) with a domain registrar (like fasthosts) and a simple transfer.

[cmjim]

We purchased the domain name from Godaddy cocoamountain.co.uk. We also have cocoamountain.com and eu domain names. Deepserver host their servers on Fasthost and we have no access to thier servers. have they won this battle?

[cmjim]

Further we have no account with Fasthost the web design company Deepserve are hosting this on thier servers

[adam1987]

You just need to login to godaddy and change the dns !

[awebapart.com]

Although you may have purchased your domain from the godaddy registrar, it now seems that the domain has been transferred under the fasthosts registrar:

http://whois.domaintools.com/cocoamountain.co.uk

If you dont have a fasthosts account then you need to ask your supplier to transfer it back to your godaddy account, or set up your own account at fasthosts.

If you think your supplier is not going to be helpful, then there are legal proceedings you could consider, after all it is your domain you purchased it, some companies manage to get domains off other companies through nominet domain dispute processes because the other company has hijacked the domain. So the battle isn't over if you are willing to put in the effort - perhaps even a call to fasthosts or nominet or trading standards might help.

How embroilled is the domain name, is it on all of your stationary, products, packaging, branding etc? If not then you could consider a different domain name.

[darren atkinson]

cmjim: Have you actually paid the invoice they sent you?

Some people may not like my approach to this but here is what I would do.

Write down everything that you can remember discussing when you agreed to go with them for your web build. Include all discussed features and timescales. Importantly put down the price you agreed upon.

Now write a list of all the features that are currently broken / not working, indicate how much time they have gone over the agreed timescales as well.

I would then let them know that until the site is working as promised they will not get any money from yourself. I don't charge my clients 2/3's of the way through a project, I bill at the end as agreed. Also state that due to the missed deadline there is a penalty which they must accept due to lost sales and business opportunities.

If they don't agree to the penalty fees, simply explain that you didn't agree to an incomplete web site, or their mid project price increase.

Chances are they will not want too lose out on all the work they have put into developing your site with no payment to show for it.

If they claim you are being unfair, or they will take any form of legal action then I would consult with someone with a little more knowledge of the area than I have. I do think that they wouldn't have a leg to stand on though as no contract was signed, they have not yet delivered a finished product, and they have missed agreed deadlines.

If these details are yours:
http://www.123-reg.co.uk/full_whois.cgi?domain=cocoamountain.co.uk

Then you should be able to request FastHosts to transfer control back to yourself, without too much of a problem.

Sorry to sound cruel, but don't be a wimp. This company has ripped you off, and their current actions would not give me much confidence of continuing to work with them.

If you have already paid them then thats a whole different ball game which I wouldn't have any confidence on commentinig on.

Good luck

Darren

[awebapart.com]

Good call Darren. I have checked the whois registrant's name and address details with the google cache of the website, and they do match so that is encouraging.

Another tip, I would visit google.co.uk and enter in the search box:

site:cocoamountain.co.uk

you will find that google has kept a cache of 65 pages of your site. For each page listing if you click on the 'Cached' link you will at least be able to salvage the text from your site by using the mouse to drag and copy and paste into a local word document. This will save you having to start again from scratch. But do this soon, before the cache gets updated.

I've sent you another tip privately by email, just in case the supplier is monitoring this forum.

[Poppy Design]

I feel we are paying for their learning curve and they have been unfair. We are held over a barrel as they are hosting our website on their servers. We feel stuck as we can ill afford to go over budget and wary if cost spiral as they encounter more problems with our web site.

Dear James
I am so sorry to hear about your problems - what a major headache for you.

Have you actually paid them yet? Did you get a written quote? I would have thought that if you are paying for the hosting service, the company should have provided you with your control panel log in details along with your FTP details (this you use for accessing your files on the hosting server, uploading and downloading these files) - have they given you this?

Initially perhaps you can arrange a meeting (if they are in the same village), sit down and fully discuss the options and how you can all rectify them - after all if this company is just starting out (especially in a small rural area) and it would not be in their interest to get a bad name for their 1st job I think!

If you have no joy here, then perhaps you need to seek legal advise (perhaps you have legal cover as part of a business association?) next.

I would imagine you have all your written content and images yourself, so if you have not paid this company and you cannot come to an agreement, then perhaps better to start from fresh. Depending on the complexity of your site, you should be able to get a simple bespoke designed ecommerce site from between £1000 - £1800.

As standard, I put all my design quotes in writing, when client goes ahead, they get my T&C's, order acceptance stating exactly what they are getting for their money which I ask them to check, sign and send back with a 20% deposit - this tends to keep both parties straight.

Hope you get this sorted
Joanne

[robertt]

Domain name:
cocoamountain.co.uk

Registrant:
Paul Maden

That is who legally owns the domain name currently.

It could be possible to issue a DRS against the domain name, however it has to be shown to be abusive use and that you have rights to it.

There could be another possible route to regaining ownership (Assuming Paul Maden is not you!) and that is to contact Nominet requesting registration correction however they would want proof that you have paid for the domain name and used it.

I hope this helps and feel free to drop me a PM for any further information.

Cheers,
Rob.

[stugster]

Once you get the domain name sorted out, give me a PM and I can arrange you some temporary (6 months or so) free hosting on our servers until you get yourselves sorted out :)

[GNU]

We purchased the domain name from Godaddy cocoamountain.co.uk. We also have cocoamountain.com and eu domain names. Deepserver host their servers on Fasthost and we have no access to thier servers. have they won this battle?

No if you registered the domain yourself it is yours, they may own the server and the site, but you can point your domain to any server you like, so when you get another site built, point your domain at the new site. In fact it would be worth getting some cheap hosting and putting a "back soon" page on it and re-pointing your domain straight away.

Aside from the hike in prices, the price you have been charged not bad for a bespoke FINISHED and featureful site (which yours does not seem to be), but personally I would consider bespoke solution overkill for a chocolate shop.

There are a number of open source applications you could have had professionally modified for between £600 and £1500 with good results and lots of features.

If they did not discuss these options with you prior to beginning work they are lacking either knowledge or ethics (IMO).