Get the dog barking! What SEO Companies Should Give you! [Archive]

sandpetra

11th January 2007, 19:39

There's a lot of interest in SEO lately so I thought, as i'm an SEO new to the forum, I'd weigh in and try and earn some honest credibility by giving an insight to what I think you should get from an SEO company in 2007. Sorry! This is a long post:eek:,

First - Expert? Am I an expert? Can i say i am? "A wise man knows nuthin'" i think some old Chinese person said. But clients want to hear this phrase especially when paying money! What do you do? I say "If you want a Google SEO expert, phone Google" - I am however experienced at SEO principles and with theory - I practice every day, and the more i practice, the better results I seem to generate (some old Golf quote).

Importantly, I sure know what doesnt work (Google actually tells everyone)!

Secondly - web design company or seo company? Two different things Im afraid offering two different services. Many (as we do) offer both services, and varying "products" or disciplines. Personally, I'm a web designer / web developer who's over the last 6 years become obsessed with Google. Nowadays i would consider myself an ethical, white hat SEO (now obviously i have did things in the past, many years ago, in either ignorance or stupidity, that could be considered a bit naughty - and in SEO you dont get your stripes until Google kicks you in the gonads!)

Probably because although i have always been interested in art and design and computers, for the last 10 years i have had a deeper interest with "marketing and sales" - the very thing that makes the world go around. I am also a web accessibilty geek! This gives me usually a bit more insight into actual web design than a grahic or inexperienced web designer, for instance.

Ask yourself:

• Do you want a nice seo friendly website (can be done in 4 weeks usually - end of job)
• Do you want to rank higher in Google (takes 3-6 months with a 1yr agreement)

So i am a bit of an all rounder. My target customer? Small to medium sized businesses and organisations who need the best deal possible - with a cost and job agreed to match their requirement - not mine.

The type of client I normally get is one who needs a SEO friendly website revamp and wants better positioning in Google. Normally i agree to take on the work over a years contract (unless it is an ad-hoc web design project with no ongoing optimisation). We dont necessarily charge an upfront fee, but a monthly cost is agreed for SEO. The end-aim is always the same - to get more relevant traffic to the site and get my clients phone ringing (metaphorically speaking) - this is ultimately what i am judged on.

It is worth noting:

• Some Graphic Designers dont know how to build websites
• Some website designer dont know how to do seo properly
• Some SEOs dont know a thing about building websites (!)

A seo friendly website is a different animal from an optimised website. Optimisation by the very nature of the term is to make something better over time. You cant build an optimised site in 6 weeks, because you need data on competition, ranking analysis, testing etc but you can build a seo friendly website in this time.

With that in mind, if you are a small business looking for a seo solution, this is what you should expect -

• Appear In Google within the first month under normal circumstances if you've not been in before or if the site is new.
• Dont expect to rank high for competitive key phrases for 3-9 months for new SITES. Google uses filters to "filter" out websites that may show strong promise for ranking for competitive keywords until Google has had a chance to determine for itself over time where the site should appear on search engines results. Some people call this the GOOGLE SANDBOX.
• Old sites can rank for competitive keywords within the first 3 months. When i say old, I mean sites Google has known about for over a year or two, and sites that have a page rank.

You can type the following into Google to see if your site is in Google and how many pages Google has "read" on your site and has "indexed" ie recorded for use -

SITE:yourdomainname

After a few months (3-6) you should be able to see a visible page Rank indicator for your site. Page Rank (http://www.internetmarketing101.org.uk/internet-marketing-articles/googlepr-faq.htm)is just a measure of your page taking into a lot of factors. It scores 1-10. 0-3 is doo-da. 4-5 is OK but quite easy to achieve. 6-8 is excellent. 9-10 means you are the BBC or Google or another global brand (so relax)! High page rank does not necessarily mean a lot of traffic but usually the higher the page rank, the more trust Google has in your website. How is this good? Well it is thought if you have a high PR then your site is spidered or read by Google that bit more often - meaning if you have a blog constantly selling something - then Google will include your page fast if your PR is high! Meaning you are in the search results and hopefully getting leads in a quicker time.

To get PR (and basically to even get into Google) you need links from other websites pointing to your website. Not just any old links either. You want quality links from on-topic websites or industry resource sites. This will get you a high PR. On the subject of links you want more links because the more links you have with good keywords actually in the pointing link, pointing to your site, the higher you appear in the search engines for searches for that term.

To see how many quality links you have in Google, type

LINK:yourdomainname

Google doesnt show all links to prevent reverse engineering, but you can type the same in Yahoo to get a more complete picture.

It is important you understand that quality links matter. Google devalues links all the time and makes tweaks to it's algorithm - hence why the top of GOOGLE now "ALWAYS CHANGES".

You want proper links not "faked ones". You want real people linking to fresh new quality content on you site (yes! You (or your seo) have to give them a reason to link to your site wether that be an online quiz or free stuff or the latest industry news! You do not want 100 "directory links" etc or 100% manufactured reciprocal links. While useful, year on year they diminish in worth. Google (and indeed Yahoo, MSN etc) looks at a lot of things when determining where your site ranks. A good seo company will aim to do the following by deploying the most cost effective, time saving techniques to your site:

1. Increase Page Rank
2. Increase Incoming Link Count In Google
3. Increase Relevent Link Count In Google
4. Monitor Results in Google For Targetted keyterms
5. Monitor Increase Traffic Levels to Your Site
6. Modify any part of the site to be more seo friendly (text, code etc)
7....and evaluate results and target & modify etc until targeted keywords are successfully positioned.
8. Ultimately, increase visibility, traffic and sales

Monitoring Effectiveness:cool:

If you're using the LINK or SITE operators above, you can actually keep track of some of the changes and modifications made by your seo over the course of the job. If you started with a page rank 1 site 6 months ago and it has not risen to at least 4 or 5 in this time, it's pretty safe to say that the seo initiative could be innefective (especially if you have no increase in traffic - which at the end of the day what this is all about! Converting Traffic!).

TIP - Sign up (or get your seo to show you these results every month) to track your keyword performance in Google. You can see how it works at this "seo keyword example". Get the FREE Google Analytics installed on your site, too.

Don't expect to get a page rank 6 within the first year (this is normally quite difficult and expensive) although we managed it twice so far in the 2007 January Page Rank update which is actually happening as we speak (it happens about 4 times a year usually).

To be fair however, Google is playing some funny games at the moment so at all times, please give your SEO the benefit of the doubt!

Showing you the money!:D

An SEO GEEK can usually show you returns from a site within the 3-6 month period. The remaining 6 months of a 1 year contract is usually spent consolidating and improving. If you cannot see any change within 6 months, then something could be and probably is amiss (although obviously the more competitive your industry on a global scale, the harder it is).

Get on to your web optimiser. Ask them what's happening! Say you want to see the traffic stats for last month - and indeed since the campaign begun.

Things to avoid if you want to stay happy!:D

It's easy. If a seo promises you anything - look elsewhere! Simple i know from my high vantage point, but it is that simple and logical, much like seo!

FACT - No-one knows how Google works today or tomorrow. We only think we know.
FACT - Google has no special relationships when it comes to SEO. They hate us all it seems!
FACT - No SEO can promise Number 1 rankings. We aim for the first page, initially.

Bonus Fact - A seo will happily spend hours talking to you about what has been done to optimise your site - until your eyes are sore with keeping your lids open. If a seo isnt transparent about what is being done - again, something might be amiss - or youre talking to sales!

I hope this is useful. Any other seos want to comment (or expand - I am losing consciousness) and hopefully make this thread even more useful?

Shaun (if my whitterings confuse, please ask me to clarify):)

Aspect Investments

11th January 2007, 20:10

Good post Shaun.

I dont agree with the timescale you have quoted though. SEO is an onging job I agree that. But a good SEO should be able to improve a sites ranking within a month. Google updates its search results every few days, so a month is enough time in my opinion to show some improvement.

For example, I have been SEO ing a brand new site for around 6 weeks. The site was listed in Google within 3 days, and is on the 1st page on Google for a competitive search term. The job is ongoing, but im happy with the results so far.

The site is showing page rank 4 and has 618 Google backlinks. It should be page rank 5 or 6 to be honest, but like you say Google is a law unto itself.

sandpetra

11th January 2007, 20:24

Watch it EBA! By the end of this post people will be thinking it can be done tomorrow!:) I'm trying to manange client expectation.

However, I certainly would not promise a new site in a month - leaving yourself open to criticism, and what happens if the site has a penalyty of some kind you dont know about until the second month?:)

I do say however a more established site should be able to see results sooner.

And another thing, you might rank well now, but it could drop or disappear from Google tomorrow. Waiting a bit more time or gathering a bit more data over time for customers is more useful to me.

Aspect Investments

11th January 2007, 20:41

Im not saying you can get any site on the 1st page of Google within a month. But you should be able to improve a sites position in Google within a month.

Im sure you are a genuine guy Shaun, but there are many so called SEOs who like to take peoples money, and then say it will take 6 months before the changes take effect. This is simply not acceptable, and im just trying to advise people of the facts, that a good SEO should be able to show you some improvement within a month.

Coding Monkey

11th January 2007, 20:53

Secondly - web design company or seo company? Two different things Im afraid offering two different services. Many (as we do) offer both services, and varying "products" or disciplines.

I'm glad you say that. Although we outsource SEO to another company and make this obvious to our clients, I hear so frequently that it is the fault of a web designer if the website is not 100% SEO friendly. This is like hiring a copywriter to write something for you, then complaining that it wasn't posted correctly to your target audience.

I see a website as a stage of 4 (often 5) types of professions: photographer, designer, developer, copywriter, SEO'er (yes, that'll do as a word). For most web designers, they will be trained in graphic design, not search engine techniques and programming. As a company, through working with these companies, we try and incorporate all of these factors that we have learnt - and yet, I've learnt that different companies use different techniques, so that there are certainly wrong ways, but there is no "right way".

Rob Holmes

11th January 2007, 21:04

I think you hit the nail on the head Tom, alot of people that call themselves web designers are actually just managers of other professionals - but they do it from a graphics perspective which is wrong.

Rob

Richie N

11th January 2007, 21:33

I would be interested in speaking to SEOs to improve our ranking so please PM me.
thanks :)

sandpetra

11th January 2007, 21:38

"a good SEO should be able to show you some improvement within a month"

Yes I agree now, but again it comes down to each job, for they are all different. In my experience when you tell clients you'll see results in a month, they expect much more, even when you at the time try and quantify this improvement quite clearly. I know i can get a Page Rank 5 site in one PR update - but i dont promise thie same result to any client so i dont let them down.

It's all about client expectation at the end.

What if you find, for no reason, the site is not in Google in a month? You've failed! The client doesnt know that Google is a very strange beast - a law unto itself.

And to clarify - i am talking about first page results in general when i say 3-6 months (in some sectors). In others, it can take even more time, and in totally niche markets i can probably get you top ten in 7 days! (see what i mean?)

This is my honest observation. And remember business is business. If you get an advertising agency to create a tv campaign for you and they say "we'll be done with our creative proposals in 2 weeks" do you honestly believe it takes two weeks to come up with the pitch? Of course, it doesnt. They have other clients to service and you'll be fitted into the work flow asap.

SEOs have a biz too. With a lot of clients sometimes. It's unfair sometimes for a client to think he/she is the only client and can expect you to work 10 hours a day from when you win the pitch till said client hits top ten. This is managing your seo business and setting realistic expetations for both seo and client.

I say 3-6 months to see consolidated and "stable" improvement in Google. If i deliver faster, good. At the end of the day if a seo says he can do it faster - and I lose the job pitch - so be it.

But I think I am ethical. That is why i take a yearly contract - to get to grips with job at hand and get results. To deliver. I've never taken money off a client and not, basically, worked my backside off!

PeteYoung

11th January 2007, 23:13

I dont neccesarily disagree with SandPetra's original timescales especially once you get into the moderately competitive keyword sector (not longtail terms).

Whilst you can expect some changes during the initial months, much of this is spent building foundations (particularly on newer sites - if you can position a brand new site on a moderately competitive term in amonth - well you have my deepest respext), which allows you to build more effectively over the ongoing months in order to establish the site fully in the long term

darren atkinson

12th January 2007, 09:57

Hi All,

Very interesting topic, I think Shaun sums most things up pretty well really. Obviously every SEO works a different way, and develops their own methods so not everyone is going to agree with every point made. The timeframe I prefer to work to is as follows:

Brand new sites:
- Small gains and ranking in 3 - 4 weeks
- Break into competitive terms in 6 months or so
- Dominating top half of SERPS for many targeted keywords 8 - 12 months / ongoing

Existing (Older) sites:
- Break into competitive terms in a month or so maximum
- Dominating top half of SERPS for many targeted keywords up to 6 months

This is a very rough guide as it obviously changes on a site by site and keyword basis.

Like Shaun says it may be possible to boost an older site up really quickly, but it is better to under estimate on results and then over perform on actual results further down the line.

Many people would be put off hiring an SEO company for an ongoing project which could last 1 - 2 years or more, but you have to be realistic. The amount of visitors which can be achieved using SEO can be enormous, and trying to gain this number of visitors by using other methods (non SEO) could cost many times as much.

I might be going a little of topic here, so I apologise in advance (hopefully some people might find this interesting):

I was reading an article / blog from a very famous SEO expert who works for an also very famous SEO company about how much they charge clients. At first glance the figures looked ridiculous. He stated a 6 - 8 month SEO campaign would cost around $50,000 USD, with a complete site rebuild and SEO campaign at around $120,000 USD.

Initially I thought how can this be? But realistically how much does a decent quality run of TV ad's cost? How much does it cost to take out full page ad's in leading media publications? Really, when you look at it that way the SEO work is quite cheap!

The problems for good quality SEO and Internet Marketing companies are:

- Educating website \ business owners of these facts
- Gaining client trust in a world of fake SEO companies

Too many times have I seen and heard tales of people getting ripped off by so called SEO's, there are some stories on this forum right now.

I received an email from a 'SEO' company yesterday offering me their services, what a cheek, they had a shoddy website, the email contained false information, and if they had even bother to take a 2 second glance at my home page should have realised they were wasting their time. The long email claimed they had analysed my site, ha!

Clients of mine often receive emails telling them that for just £50 they will be submitted on 1000's of search engines and will rank in the top positions. SEO is an absolute minefield for business owners.

Getting back on topic:

In my opinion a good SEO company should be initially be able to demonstrate results they have already achieved for previous clients, and then they should gain a clients trust. SEO's should be looking long term rather than billing up front, spending a few months then moving on to the next client.

Darren

PeteYoung

12th January 2007, 10:42

Initially I thought how can this be? But realistically how much does a decent quality run of TV ad's cost? How much does it cost to take out full page ad's in leading media publications? Really, when you look at it that way the SEO work is quite cheap!

The problems for good quality SEO and Internet Marketing companies are:

- Educating website \ business owners of these facts
- Gaining client trust in a world of fake SEO companies

You made some good points there Darren, just thought I would comment slightly on what you said.

You mentioned the TV and press coverage, however much of this is based round applicable demographics, and coverage slots ie times etc are guaranteed, and response rates generally higher. SEO is less controllable as you are at the direct whim of the search engines and whilst you can minimise the effects of search engine algoritm updates (by employing more white hat techniques") at the end of the day, you can't guarantee performance and you can't guarantee timescales.

Moving onto your second point. Spot on. Don't necessarily agree with the word "fake SEO companies", I like to look at them as not offering the service I (or many other Internet Marketeers) can offer. Most web developers/designers these days have an appreciation for the web, and designs impact on SEO. However for many people marketing a website doesnt go beyond titles, meta tags and web submission, somewhere where the "more professional" organisations go beyond, implementing a number of strategies aimed at reaching those timescales you mentioned earlier.

To follow on from this, there is a good post over on SearchEngineLand (Danny Sullivans latest project for those in the industry), about the current perspective on SEO (IS SEO overated) (http://searchengineland.com/070111-112236.php)

sandpetra

12th January 2007, 16:45

I would be wary of seos who cold call you, or email you without your permission offering quite simply a product that is too good to be true.

if you see "guarantee" on these emails there's a good chance it's just some chancer.

Of course every body needs to look for buisness. At the moment were fortunate enough that about 80% of business comes by referrals, with another 20% through search engines. I'll find out the exact figures so we can show you the type of return YOU can expect from an seo.

Bear in mind we are only a small company, 9 months old, and only beginning to try and muscle our way to the top of Google!

Ideally you should be reffered to a SEO, or you find them in Google (in the organic or natural spots, not necessarily in the sponsored boxes).

ImproveSearchListings

12th January 2007, 17:21

I would be wary of seos who cold call you, or email you without your permission

I work in SEO and PPC and although I find most of the rest of your statement to be true (I would be wary of someone guaranteeing the moon on a stick), I find it strange that you find it wrong to look for business.

I work for a very ethical company, who do not guarantee SEO results (although we are prepared to put in a performance bonus related to the successes we bring).

Many of our clients are large blue-chip organisations who can think of nothing worse than sharing sensitive information about who they use to other companies - especially if there is any cross over.

We actually do get business from referrals, usually from a shared board member etc, however if I (or anyone I worked with for that matter) sat there and waited fro the phone to ring, I think I'd have to question our tactics and how we were going to reach our ever stretching targets.

Outside of SEO specifics, when I recieve an e-mail addressed to me and pertinent to our business, as far as I'm concerned it shows me that they have done some research, they aren't just spamming everyone on a list and from that I will either reply (if it is a current need worth them bidding on) or I will accept a call and see if they would be any use in the future. At the same time, I have been able to get business from the company contacting me in the past.

It's been a long day and I'm looking forward to the weekend. Feel that maybe I was a little stressed at the beginning of this post. Glad to have voiced my opinion. Feel quite calm now!:cool:

GreatSEO

12th January 2007, 17:30

Heres a bit of a offer for you -

I have worked for a number of SEO specialists that have allowed me to see who there clients are and what they have achieved (under NDA of course). From what i have seen there are many different ways to get to the top of google, some bad and some right. With this in mind if any of you SEO specialists can show me how good you are (buys confidence) i may very well be able to put some business your way from the telemarketing that i do.

To give you an idea over 3 months at 5 days of telemarketing a month i produced 11 new clients on a retainer per month for my customer. I love SEO its a huge thing to learn about and you can learn something new everyday (bit like IT)

Sorry Mods you can move or delete if you deem appropriate

But if your interested please PM me.

With regards to the posts so far i dont think anyone can guarantee a top spot within google as there are so many people that offer the service.

Kindest Regards

Dave

sandpetra

12th January 2007, 18:54

... I find it strange that you find it wrong to look for business...
Whoa! I dont think you got the full meaning from my post, or perhaps I've not fully expressed my view.

That's not what i mean at all. Please note....

... Of course every body needs to look for buisness. At the moment were fortunate enough
What i am saying it is probably "safer" for a newbie to SEO to ignore unsolicited emails and cold calls. This type of client should try and get some seo details from one of their current advertising partners. If they cant they should check Google results. Like everything else in life get a few cost estimates from say 3 companies.

Maybe I just dont like cold-calling.

I will be however sending out presentation packs to some contacts, through the post, and following up with a telephone call. Probably. At the moment i dont really need to chase this but I will at some point obviously.

This suits the type of client I am aiming for, and as i work closely with an advertising agency (http://www.adpartners.co.uk/), it gives them the chance to put a glossy presentation in front of clients offering their offline services too.

... With regards to the posts so far i dont think anyone can guarantee a top spot within google as there are so many people that offer the service...
No this is not the point at all. No one can guarantee top place in Google because Google constantly changes. No one. That's no single person. Now dont get me wrong, a good seo will aim for it, sometimes obsess about it and for some of the time achieve it. But there is no telling how the competition will rocket or wane over the course of a year. And Google updates data every couple of days. One Day your page 1 for 2 years, next day you could be on the 10th page ie invisible.

i do'nt know a site that has stayed at the top for an unbranded competitive keyterm over the course of the last year. If it has - it's not a competive keyterm, simple as that! (I'm not trying to be arguementitve here, :redface:).

It's just not helpful for anyone if anyone visits this thread and thinks there are any guarantees in seo. You might think it is strange me saying this, but the only thing I guarantee is that I work my arse off (can I say that?) - and possibly, that it is currently raining in sunny Greenock.

Does a newspaper guarantee visitors from advert? Of course not. They dont even guarantee circulation. You take your chance. Do you get any guarantees from a tv commercial? Nope. They can come up with facts but many people here know the conversion rate these days in the press ....and the cost!

Fact is you dont get any guarantees in any form of marketing I know of - except when something appears. And SEO is marketing, simple as that, not rocket science, not black magic - and you dont need to be Einstein to understand a lot of simple, rewarding (but sometimes time consuming) tactics in SEO.

I can get a site in Google in about 2 seconds, and possibly to an audience of thousands in that 2 seconds ( I did it with a page where I was getting 2000 visitors a day from Stumble and for a week this marketing channel proved useful). If the site is any good of course. (edit - and of cousre i dont mean it appears in Google right away, just that Google will spider it in the next couple of days - although you could be in GOOGLE BLOG SEARCH - typically, an artical you write appears here within the hour if it is any good.)

Am I genius? No I just know how to use my delicious (http://del.icio.us/) bookmark, my stumble (http://www.stumbleupon.com) bookmark, my blog, my digg (http://www.digg.com) - god - whatever social bookmarking system I use ie any body can do this with a FIREFOX EXTENSION (http://www.accessibility101.org.uk/download-firefox.htm). The problem is some people sell, for hundreds of pounds, what i just said above. It's nonsense. It's not ethical and it is why some dont trust seo companies. Of course some believe a fool and money is easily parted.

Am I always thinking about the magic bullet? Of course, like any other seo, and even though it is 99.999999% no chance of finding it, I try and the more I read the more I learn I know the best ways to spend limited time to cost effectively market a site. And at the same time I have found some great methods (which I am dying to let out the bag - but obviously wont!).

After all I need to make money! As for showing clients work, i show clients that allow me (mostly web design). Anyone trying to reverse engineer my stuff will find a few good things, but most of it is just methodical stuff they should know anyway (some of which they will need to know to reverse engineer!). I think I am working on some magic ideas at the moment, delivering really good results.

If someone was copying me or examining my stuff they will need to be working very hard indeed with the hours I keep (and I'm OCD!) - so good luck to them - it's a big internet and there's plenty of room for seo people that actually do love it! If you worry too much about hiding your stuff when you dont need to, you dont believe your own hype!

Every SEO today stands on the shoulders of giants.

I think this thread has got some useful info for people on here. Any more SEOs want a say?:rolleyes:

sandpetra

12th January 2007, 19:24

I think I will add a wee snippet - the problem is many clients know that Google ranks companies from 1 to 10. Many clients know "some people" (ie SEOs) can claim to influence these results.

So they think, quite naturally, that number 1 is possible and all you need to do is pay for it, like being on the back page of the yellow pages.

This is the problem I think.

Google is like the waves of the sea. Sometimes youre up sometimes your down. The sooner customers understand this the better. It is the job of the seo to "ride the waves" - constantly trying to keep the site high as everything shifts around it, and even more importantly, to try and get leads for the customer while all this happens (usually by targetting the long tail).

SteveGibson

12th January 2007, 23:15

sandpetra

13th January 2007, 02:08

I don't get all of this.

All you SEO guys are talking about how you are "professional SEOs" and are saying how it's an integral part of SEO to be "constantly trying to keep the site high" on google.

Yet Tin, another professional SEO, has posted in the past that he has clients who he SEO'd one time years ago and they're still up there.

No wonder us laymen are totally confused about how to select an SEO company and are suspicious about what's real in SEO and what's just a con to extract an ongoing stream of fees.

So, why is there such a discrepancy between what different people are saying?

Why is it necessary to change on-going fees? And how come Tin says he doesn't?

If this thread is really about helping people understand what they should expect and ask from an SEO, then how about you guys getting off the fence and explaining that one?

Steve
We're talking now mainly about seo companies who guarantee top placement.

Search Engine Optimizers SEO is an abbreviation for "search engine optimizer." Many SEOs provide useful services for website owners, from writing copy to giving advice on site architecture and helping to find relevant directories to which a site can be submitted. However, a few unethical SEOs have given the industry a black eye through their overly aggressive marketing efforts and their attempts to unfairly manipulate search engine results.
While Google doesn't have relationships with any SEOs and doesn't offer recommendations, we do have a few tips that may help you distinguish between an SEO that will improve your site and one that will only improve your chances of being dropped from search engine results altogether.
Be wary of SEO firms that send you email out of the blue. Amazingly, we get these spam emails too:
"Dear google.com,
I visited your website and noticed that you are not listed in most of the major search engines and directories...":) Reserve the same skepticism for unsolicited email about search engines as you do for "burn fat at night" diet pills or requests to help transfer funds from deposed dictators.
No one can guarantee a #1 ranking on Google. Beware of SEOs that claim to guarantee rankings, allege a "special relationship" with Google, or advertise a "priority submit" to Google. There is no priority submit for Google. In fact, the only way to submit a site to Google directly is through our Add URL page or through the Google Sitemaps (Beta) program, and you can do this yourself at no cost whatsoever.
Be careful if a company is secretive or won't clearly explain what they intend to do. Ask for explanations if something is unclear. If an SEO creates deceptive or misleading content on your behalf, such as doorway pages or "throwaway" domains, your site could be removed entirely from Google's index. Ultimately, you are responsible for the actions of any companies you hire, so it's best to be sure you know exactly how they intend to "help" you.

For more see Google (http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?answer=35291)!

JustOneUK

13th January 2007, 03:48

I, Brian

13th January 2007, 10:15

Nice thread, Shaun. :)

So, why is there such a discrepancy between what different people are saying?

The key here is that different clients have different needs and compete in different markets.

So a lot needs to be tailored towards the agreed goals and targets you set up.

On the point of seeing results - again, it all depends on the competitive nature of the keywords being targeted.

Seeing "some" improvement usually isn't enough if it isn't anywhere near targets, and it can take a while to determine strengths and weaknesses for further focus in a fairly comprehensive campaign, especially with the link development.

The really ideal links are on-topic and on pages that lots of authority sites are linking to - but these are rare. So off-topic links are actually fine.

However, if you set up links for different keywords and you find some underperforming, you can seek to change the links powering those keywords, until you get the balance right.

That's another reason why SEO can take time - if you're aiming for a number of keywords in competitive markets, there can be a lot of fine-tuning to do to exploit strengths and turnaround weaknesses.

2c.

SteveGibson

13th January 2007, 11:10

None of you have really answered my questions:

Why is it necessary to change on-going fees? And how come Tin says he doesn't?

Maybe it will help if I ask a third question to go along with them:

Is there a point where SEO is "done"?

i.e. the SEO has finished and the site will remain in it's high position on google without any additional SEO and won't drop off p1 just because of a small algo change?

Steve

multilingual

13th January 2007, 11:43

None of you have really answered my questions:

Maybe it will help if I ask a third question to go along with them:

Is there a point where SEO is "done"?

i.e. the SEO has finished and the site will remain in it's high position on google without any additional SEO and won't drop off p1 just because of a small algo change?

Steve

There are two types of SEO. On page and off page.

The on page stuff is generally a one-off event (subject to a little tinkering from time to time) where as the off page SEO tend to be ongoing (Link building, etc)

JB

JustOneUK

13th January 2007, 13:07

Is there a point where SEO is "done"?

i.e. the SEO has finished and the site will remain in it's high position on google without any additional SEO and won't drop off p1 just because of a small algo change?

Your SEO is done when your competitors stop doing theirs :D

(You could be ranked right at the top but if someone else is building and promoting their site more than you,.... why should you stay at the top.
It's not a god given right)

People generally want the crappiest oscommerce site to rank for the hardest ever keywords...and think they are going to pay about £50 for that LMAO! when there are sites spending £50K/month+ promoting theirs.

James.

SteveGibson

13th January 2007, 14:53

Your SEO is done when your competitors stop doing theirs

(You could be ranked right at the top but if someone else is building and promoting their site more than you,.... why should you stay at the top.
It's not a god given right)

While I understand your point, I'm not sure I agree with it.

It's surely not who's "promoting their site more than you", but who's doing better SEO than you.

But that doesn't quite address my initial questions of why there's this ongoing charging.

Is it really just a pre-emptive attempt to avoid the possibility that someone might come along and SEO better for the same term?

And, if so, doesn't that say something about the quality of the SEO that was done in the first place?

Frankly, I've been disappointed by the answers I've received to what I feel were fairly simple questions about operating practices.

If the point of this thread was to help potential clients (i.e. people who may invest in SEO in the near future) understand how to select an SEO company, I feel that it's done a poor job of educating people on the key issues.

Steve

JustOneUK

13th January 2007, 15:25

Generally SEO is an ongoing role of link building and applying the latest trends to your webpages. If you get someone for a 'one off' SEO of your website..that is fine. It should achieve at least something but it will not be building links to your site and will not be furthering or tweaking your webpages in the long term, hence a monthly fee and continued observation and adjusting of your website. There is no point having SEO if you don't even have the skills or time to monitor the results.

These things take time to learn, do and apply. SEO's also have mouths to feed. If you have the time to do it yourself then that's just great just like decorating your own house... if you learn how to do it and have the time and motivation, do it, if not get a decorator.

James.

I, Brian

13th January 2007, 15:29

None of you have really answered my questions:

Why is it necessary to change on-going fees? And how come Tin says he doesn't?

Different fee structures reflect different services provisions - for example, two extremes:

If all that's asked for is a redevelopment of a site to make it search engine friendly, then it's really a single task that's being asked for - one time fee

If someone needs a link development campaign, then likely a monthly fee to cover link rental costs will be required - continual fees.

It's also worth pointing out that a retainer for support can also be a good idea - so the business can be guaranteed a prompt and authoritive reply should any specific issues come up (supplemental results, -30 penalty, sudden fall after an algo change, etc). Existing clients should expect this as part of the service from SME SEO companies, though larger corporate SEO companies may charge like lawyers for time spent.

2c.

Is there a point where SEO is "done"?

i.e. the SEO has finished and the site will remain in it's high position on google without any additional SEO and won't drop off p1 just because of a small algo change?

Steve

It really depends what's being targeted.

I'm currently taking a break while writing a report for a big finance client. We're targeting really competitive keyword areas (including single keyword finance terms) and there's not a chance in hell they're going to rank for these simply by being search engine friendly.

So they have a link development campaign that requires continual attention - on-going building work, monitoring of which strategies are proving most effect, leveraging stronger rankings to help other keywords, and determining which keywords are underperforming and require further attention.

Competition is fierce - everyone's engaged in their own campaigns. We have to be more aggressive, to push ourselves ahead. That's continual work.

Hope that helps. :)

sandpetra

13th January 2007, 15:52

Firstly, Steve, Didnt you read the first post? i clearly say there is a difference between an optimised site and on going seo. If you are in a niche market - selling zebra styled umbrellas, I could do you an ad-hoc campaign that would probably suffice.:) If you have a shopping cart I can optimise your linking structure so all 35K pages are in Google. But getting SELECTED pages of this to the top in Google will be time consuming - after all it's all based on the competition. You might sell lightbulbs on one page but do you really expect to rank above a site that sells only lightbulbs? You can in some instances, but with a lot of work, work an seo might not see the results for for weeks.

You ask why charge an ongoing fee. Simple explanation really.

• If I am optimising your site for your chosen keywords, how can I possibly know if the optimisation work I am carrying out is working? I check it every day!!! If it's not working, over time, I tweak my efforts. I want paid for it!!!!

• Charge a one off fee? Sure I could, but clients usually preefer this cost spread out!!!! Are you saying you would prefer to pay me £10,000 for a competitive seo campaign up front? Or are you actually saying you want to pay me £500 one off and get the same results?

Just like a good hairdresser - You are paying for:

1. My experience.
2. My skill.
3. The hours

• If I say i will optimise keywords for you, how do I know the search engine results will be the same tomorrow? Or next week? Or six months from now??? Please underatand me when i say GOOGLE CHANGES EVERY DAY!!!:) That is why no seo can offer you guarantees, apart from working their backside off.

• If you go on holiday for 3 months and say "water my plant" and you come back and it's dead, and I say, well I watered it the day you left, is that any real help to you?

• On the net, more competition appears every day.

• In 3 months from now the links I got you today might not even be there, or they may be devalued, or on the other hand, they might be solid, traffic giving and google loved. You cant tell without EXPERIMENTATION + RESEARCH. By both the nature of both of these, IT TAKES TIME.

Some websites will naturally stick at the top 1,2,3 places. It's like a snowball effect...the SEO gets the ball rolling and the internet does the rest.
Yes...in a very uncompetitive niche market. Try applying that thinking to the finance sector.

Steve, my intention with this thread was to come off the fence. I have nothing to hide. I stand by every thing I have said.

SEO is like insurance - and we all know, even insurance is useless in some cases. You pay for it every month and you expect to get something out of it at the end - but it all depends on which insurance policy you have in the end - the same can be applied to seo?

Do you want to pay one off? Find an seo who's willing to take £500 from you and wait 3 months to see the results.

I remember bulding a wee site for some new start biz for £750. With that cash, i said I would build the site and promote it to the search engines for him. I also optimised the site for his chosen keyword term and done a couple of hours getting decent quality sites to link to him.

Within 4 weeks he was in Google and on the first page for that term. Whoopee!

Do you know what? 6 months later he phoned me and said "I am slipping down Google, now on second page" - but you said you would optimise it for me!

For £750 he expected to get a website (which I ended up losing money on) and stay top on Google for a competitive search term, for ever, even though I FULLY EXPLAINED TO HIM this was a short term seo boost, to see if it was worth him to pay me for continual seo, when he sold his products for £500 a pop!!!

Natrually I told this guy to piss off!

One more point, if i charge you £10,000 for seo, I'm working on it in some wway every day over the next year. That's the difference.

Hope this clarifies a wee bit.:)

sandpetra

13th January 2007, 16:04

If someone needs a link development campaign, then likely a monthly fee to cover link rental costs will be required - continual fees.

Hi Brian, while I agree with what you said I'll just clarify this point, as this is not really whaat i am talking about. I dont buy links, so this isnt really relevent to my clients (Google doesnt like you buying links for seo purposes).

Once you have a seo friendly site full of fresh, updated regularly, unique content, the most important factor is LINKS. Within your site, from your site and to your site.

The links to your site can only be generated over a long time - there's no other ethical way of doing this - hence the long lead time.

The more quality links you have pointing to your site, the better you rank, simple as that.:)

sandpetra

13th January 2007, 16:08

I, Brian

13th January 2007, 16:30

Google doesnt like you buying links for seo purposes.

...

The more quality links you have pointing to your site, the better you rank, simple as that.

I think it's worth underlining that lots of link buying *is* over Google's radar, and you really *don't* want to be over Google's radar.

I would personally never touch well-known link sellers, precisely because Google not only dislikes them, but sometimes trawls their inventory and can penalise sites actively buying from them.

Much of my own link building is based on my having developed a portfolio of websites in different sectors, where I can have full control over the placement of links and manage as required - supplemented with various third-party link publishing solutions that most everybody uses, plus, if required, purchase of links from a private links broker incorporating other portfolios.

Bottom line, I think, is that link strategies can be very varied - but whichever is followed, it pays to be as low key as possible.

Link development is as much about risk management, ensuring that you protect clients from obvious risk. Because if Google do look at what you're doing, you want to look as inoffensive as possible.

sandpetra

13th January 2007, 16:38

Agreed Brian!:)

darren atkinson

14th January 2007, 00:24

But that doesn't quite address my initial questions of why there's this ongoing charging.

Is it really just a pre-emptive attempt to avoid the possibility that someone might come along and SEO better for the same term?

And, if so, doesn't that say something about the quality of the SEO that was done in the first place?

Frankly, I've been disappointed by the answers I've received to what I feel were fairly simple questions about operating practices.

If the point of this thread was to help potential clients (i.e. people who may invest in SEO in the near future) understand how to select an SEO company, I feel that it's done a poor job of educating people on the key issues.

Steve

Without trying to sound derogatory at all I think you are really discussing SEO from the point of view of smaller websites. Obviously this forum probably has a high proportion of smaller businesses so it is quite valid to do this, however I think a few of my SEO colleagues and myself are also including big businesses when we are explaining various points.

You are most probably very aware that there are loads of businesses out there that spend an absolute fortune on AdWords and PPC. Some companies spend many thousands a week / month (this is not an exaggeration). For these companies would not employing a dedicated SEO company to get them naturally high rankings in the search engines be a worth while exercise?

These companies with big AdWords spends are more likely to be in a highly competitive sector of business with a big fight to list highly for the search terms. In this case an ongoing SEO 'contract' would ensure that someone is constantly:
- monitoring performance
- building links
- managing any paid links / ad's
- creating content
- competitor research
- keeping abreast of SE developments (such as updates / algo changes)
- possibly managing any PPC that might be also running

I have no doubt missed other aspects of work that a professional SEO company does out as well.

These are all quite specialist aspects which would require an experienced and educated company to manage.

Getting back to your points, some websites and target keywords can be just 'done' by an SEO and left, of course there are many examples of this and I know TIN on here has performed this service many times before as his many good comments left for him show.

If I could give any one looking for an SEO some advice to take to heart it would be that SEO is a cycle which often never ends. Sure you can spend a lot of time and resources at a websites creation to give it as good a head start up the rankings as possible, and in some cases that will be enough for a while, in other case more work is required to get and then keep these rankings, this could be monthly, yearly or even bi yearly, who knows?

If there was one answer to SEO, one way to 'fix' a site so it had 'good seo' then everyone who bought this service would in theory have the 1st ranking place in Google. This is not possible, there is a ranking system on search engines, and as long as this ranking system exists, and it is beneficial to be at the top of, then there will be other websites attempting to get there.

This is true for every keyword and search term, only the level of competition changes.

Darren

SteveGibson

14th January 2007, 16:04

Sandpetra

If I am optimising your site for your chosen keywords, how can I possibly know if the optimisation work I am carrying out is working? I check it every day!!! If it's not working, over time, I tweak my efforts. I want paid for it!!!!

(snip)

Just like a good hairdresser - You are paying for:

1. My experience.
2. My skill.
3. The hours

Actually, I don't pay my barber for his time, I pay for the result called a "haircut".

If electrician A took 3 hours to diagnose and fix an problem, but electrician B only took one hour, I wouldn't pay A 3 times what I'd pay B.

In fact, I'd probably not pay him a penny more because his inability to solve the problem quickly didn't add any value to my life.

So, while I'd expect you to factor your time into any quote (after all, you want a good return on your time), if I could find an SEO who required less "trial and error" and could get it "right" more quickly, he could probably give me a lower quote and still charge more per hour.

And I wouldn't feel short changed.

GOOGLE CHANGES EVERY DAY!!!

Well, this gets back to my point/question:

"Tin, another professional SEO, has posted in the past that he has clients who he SEO'd one time years ago and they're still up there."

If "google changes every day" (do you mean the algo or just the serps?), how come these sites are still there?

Or are you suggesting that Tin isn't giving us the real story? (or that I misunderstood his posts)

I remember bulding a wee site for some new start biz for £750. With that cash, i said I would build the site and promote it to the search engines for him. I also optimised the site for his chosen keyword term and done a couple of hours getting decent quality sites to link to him.

Within 4 weeks he was in Google and on the first page for that term. Whoopee!

Do you know what? 6 months later he phoned me and said "I am slipping down Google, now on second page" - but you said you would optimise it for me!

For £750 he expected to get a website (which I ended up losing money on) and stay top on Google for a competitive search term, for ever, even though I FULLY EXPLAINED TO HIM this was a short term seo boost, to see if it was worth him to pay me for continual seo, when he sold his products for £500 a pop!!!

Natrually I told this guy to piss off!

That's a heartwarming story.

1. Client gives SEO money expecting certain results.
2. Clients expectations not met.
3. Client disappointed.
4. SEO tells client to "piss off".
5. SEO uses public forum to mock the client's lack of understanding of SEO.

I realise where you're coming from and most of us have encountered client's with unreasonable expectations.

However, it's not the client's fault he doesn't understand how SEO works.

I'm not thick but, 4 pages into a thread about what "you should get from an SEO company", I still don't understand why we have one (respected) SEO saying he does one-off, long-lasting SEO and a bunch of other SEOs saying that SEO needs to be ongoing if it's going to last for competitive terms.

So, I've actually got quite a lot of empathy for clients who are confused about what they should expect from SEO.

However, rather than give up now, I'll have one last go at provoking some sort of meaningful answer to this conundrum:

"would it be fair to say that Tin knows how to get a site to p1 and stay there with one-off SEO, but the rest of you guys don't?"

;) :D

Steve

JustOneUK

14th January 2007, 16:49

"would it be fair to say that Tin knows how to get a site to p1 and stay there with one-off SEO, but the rest of you guys don't?"

Nope.

Even Tin wouldn't guarantee a customer to get a site to no1, because you just never know, maybe if the competition was poor you could more or less guarantee page 1 or even top 5 placement.

Being top for a search like "mobile phones" could be worth millions to a company, do you think you could get a site to no1 and keep it there for a one off fee of £50?

Google does change everyday because new websites are added. SEO is dynamic...ie:it changes, if you are unaware of the term try wikipedia.

I'll have one last go at provoking some sort of meaningful answer to this conundrum:

We will keep trying to explain in in English for you then.

James.

I, Brian

14th January 2007, 16:57

Steve, it really does depend on individual client requirements, and what sort of markets are being competed in.

A problem with a thread like this is that it's working with generalities, but client requirements are incredibly diverse.

Some companies are simply looking for a very niche presence. But some companies - as Darren highlights - are targeting entire markets where constant development is required to keep ahead of strong competition.

Because of this, SEO is always going to encompass different service levels with very different goals, hence why it's impossible to compare these.

Hope that helps.

darren atkinson

14th January 2007, 17:13

"would it be fair to say that Tin knows how to get a site to p1 and stay there with one-off SEO, but the rest of you guys don't?"

;) :D

Steve

I think its fair to say that most of your points are about somebody who has successfully managed to SEO some websites that needed no further work.

I don't know Tin personally but I expect he would be the first to say that this approach will not work in some cases.

Look at it this way.

Suppose Tin seo's your website and gets you to the top of google for a certain keyword which gives you good leads and sales. Now suppose a competitor of yours hires Tin to do the same for them. (please forget the ethical implications as many seo's often stick to only 1 client of each industry)

Do you think Tin would be unable to beat his previous work and seo a site to get higher rankings, I suspect he probably could. If 5 or 10 competitors of yours all got their act together and produced better sites and 'better seo' then you would have a need for some more work top push your site back to the top.

This is what happens in many industries for many keywords. Not all of them but certainly some. The difference between 1 / 2 rankings and 6 / 7 can be literally thousands of visitors per week or month. Businesses clued up realise this.

One of my clients is in an industry like this and although I doubt I will work with them forever, they do require a lot of my time as there are around 7 - 8 other companies in the same field, going for the same keywords which all employee some form of SEO company. The majority of these companies have also been trading online for 5 - 6 years as well so it is harder competition initially.

On the other hand, I managed to get a website for a service based company to occupy the 1st and 2nd positions for ALL targeted keywords in under 6 - 7 months from conception. (The time would have been much quicker except the site was brand new and suffered time penalties on Google)

With no other work the site still occupies the top slots roughly 1.5 years later.

The point is, websites are all unique and require a unique solution.

Just because you have heard about some sites getting top rankings then never needing touching again, doesn't mean this is true for all.

Again, not wanting to drag Tin into this too much as I have never met or spoken with him (except the odd seo post now and again) I think if he could seo any site to the top of the rankings and then no further work would be required at all then he would be a million if not billionaire by now. (He may be, I don't know)

Darren

SteveGibson

14th January 2007, 18:24

Google does change everyday because new websites are added. SEO is dynamic...ie:it changes, if you are unaware of the term try wikipedia.

James

Is there really a need to be rude?

I think you can be a bigger man than that.

Steve

SteveGibson

14th January 2007, 18:41

Darren

Your hypothetical argument is interesting. And, if I knew the answer to that question I wouldn't have bothered posing the question I posed on this thread.

If 5 or 10 competitors of yours all got their act together and produced better sites and 'better seo' then you would have a need for some more work top push your site back to the top.

That's clearly true.

Lets imagine there was an SEO that could do better work than almost every other SEO - maybe he had such a fantastic grasp of the heart of the google algorithm that he knows exactly what he is doing - then can get a particular site up to the top of page 1.

And, because he is so far ahead of the competition, only 2 or 3 SEOs could challenge that position.

Then, the site would remain in the top 3 for a very, very long time.

In which case, I'd imagine the site wouldn't need any ongoing SEO.

Now, obviously, that would be an extreme example, but I think there's a question here of how easy (or difficult) it is for "SEO A" to trump the work of "SEO B".

This can't be a constant and must surely be dependent on the skills and quality of work done by A and B.

Steve

darren atkinson

14th January 2007, 19:42

This can't be a constant and must surely be dependent on the skills and quality of work done by A and B.

Steve

You are correct in a sense. A better SEO guy will more often than not be able to produce better, possibly longer lasting results than a lower skilled one.

If this is your point then you are correct, but isn't this the same as many industries?

Sorry to keep going back to seemingly unrelated examples, but if your car had a fault and you took it to a garage for repair, the level of repair could vary depending on the individual mechanics skills. Unless you know, or are recommended a good mechanic then you could be taking a risk of shoddy work or being ripped off.

I think everyone can see that service levels for virtually any service depends on the skills of the person providing the service.

The difference with SEO is that there is more to take into account.

For instance, you might have 2 websites identical in every aspect including both content, layout, url names, everything. Both are completely new i.e. no links at all. To optimise and list highly for search term A you would need to do certain things, to optimise the other site for search term B might need a different approach. This is because term A might be easier to acheive than B, term A may be the top listing for 'hairdressers leeds', whereas search term B could be just the term 'hairdressers' indicating a national audience. Term A and B may be completely unrelated ie 'hairdressers leeds' 'mechanics london'. The point is they could be anything, and as long as they are different a unique approach must be undertaken for each term.

The above example is unrealistic as you would never have 2 identical websites, but if you think about it this would make an even more custom solution to answer.

Yes there are general techniques which all good seo's employee, but the level of different aspects needed is unique. This is why prices are often based on custom solutions.

Also different seo’s use different techniques, and produce different results, on different time scales. Some prefer to quickly boost a sites ratings with little thought for long term rankings, whereas others will virtually rebuild a website and all associated seo work to try and achieve longer term positioning.

Hope this helps clear some of the points up a little.

Darren

JustOneUK

14th January 2007, 19:54

Lets imagine there was an SEO that could do better work than almost every other SEO - maybe he had such a fantastic grasp of the heart of the google algorithm that he knows exactly what he is doing - then can get a particular site up to the top of page 1.

And, because he is so far ahead of the competition, only 2 or 3 SEOs could challenge that position.

Then, the site would remain in the top 3 for a very, very long time.

a) Nope. Unless he could predict every single upcoming change in Googles algorithm, if not his site may disappear and the other SEO's sites could feature higher.

b) Nope. The other SEO's could be working on 10 sites each and blow the other from the first page completely

c) Nope. Any site could lose a whole stack of links at a moments notice, and drop like a stone, whilst others could gain a whole load (who will track that for you?) All you need is something viral, a really fantastic website/product or something new/innovative and you could easily make it to no1 naturally without much SEO intervention. (if Youtube is not on page1 for 'online video' I will eat my hat)....off to check.....

Edit> I forgot to mention whether or not it would be within anyones budget to employ this #1 in the world SEO that you are referring to, because if he /she could achieve what you are implying (as mentioned by Darren) they wouldn't be working for the small guy anymore as they would be a billionaire.

I am not too bad at SEO ;) but I couldn't get your site to the top of Google for the term "ART".... ever.

James.

I, Brian

14th January 2007, 21:18

Then, the site would remain in the top 3 for a very, very long time.

In which case, I'd imagine the site wouldn't need any ongoing SEO.

I think this is where the problem is - in SEO we're not talking about sites, as much as pages.

Think of ecommerce merchants, potentially dozens of categories and thousands of products. Many, many pages.

The likelihood is they will need to target dozens of competitive keywords and maintain strong positions for a range of key pages.

And because there is a real level of competition, you are up against companies who are also actively trying to leverage SEO and knock your pages down so theirs can rank.

SEO's generally work in competitive markets because this is where their skills are most needed and most highly prized.

I can't think of any example in such scenarios where it could be recommended that the SEO stops. Link development especially needs to be ongoing in such situations.

sandpetra

15th January 2007, 10:10

Well I, and a few other people, have tried to be quite transparent in this thread, but Steve, you keep asking us something I 1) dont feel comforable interpreting and 2) cant answer 100% - what another seo says and does.

Why dont you ask Tin on here, then, to clarify for you?

Lastly - if you still think any seo can gurantee you anything, especially with a one off payment, with results still at no1 in 6 months, i have failed with this thread to clarify things for you adequately.

Perhaps someone else can have a go....

SteveGibson

15th January 2007, 14:20

Lastly - if you still think any seo can gurantee you anything

Funny, I never mentioned the word "guarantee" in any of my posts.

So, I'm not sure why you and other SEOs are trying to twist my position this way rather than address what is a fairly simple question.

This thread was supposedly intended to help non-SEOs (people like me) understand what to expect if they hired an SEO company.

If the answers you guys have given to my very simple question are anything to go by, I think the answer to "what you should expect" is:

(1) uncertain and unpredictable results
(2) to pay and keep paying
(3) to be kept in the dark

Is it any wonder that the one SEO on UKBF that gets all the big write ups and recommendations is the one that appears to work totally differently to the guys on this thread?

Steve

I, Brian

15th January 2007, 15:47

Steve, you may want to check out some of the references for learning more about SEO in the first post of this thread:
http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=28228

I think a particular misunderstanding in this thread is what constitutes SEO.

The bottom line is that it's a service industry, so prices are going to vary according to what different levels of service is required to achieve client-specific results.

JustOneUK

15th January 2007, 16:35

If the answers you guys have given to my very simple question are anything to go by, I think the answer to "what you should expect" is:

(1) uncertain and unpredictable results
(2) to pay and keep paying
(3) to be kept in the dark

1: All you can guarantee with a good SEO is that your website will do better in the search engines, how much better as you say is uncertain. It will however be better than not having SEO.
Theoretically you get what you pay for. If you are paying an SEO for 1 hour/week you won't get the results of a 40hour/week.

2: Absolutely, but provided the results are fothcoming.

3: Your SEO should keep you posted as to their findings/results (but not necessarily divulge the details of their trade secrets) Anyway, you will be too busy dealing with sales to worry about all that "SEO stuff"! :)

James.

darren atkinson

15th January 2007, 16:39

Funny, I never mentioned the word "guarantee" in any of my posts.

So, I'm not sure why you and other SEOs are trying to twist my position this way rather than address what is a fairly simple question.

This thread was supposedly intended to help non-SEOs (people like me) understand what to expect if they hired an SEO company.

If the answers you guys have given to my very simple question are anything to go by, I think the answer to "what you should expect" is:

(1) uncertain and unpredictable results
(2) to pay and keep paying
(3) to be kept in the dark

Is it any wonder that the one SEO on UKBF that gets all the big write ups and recommendations is the one that appears to work totally differently to the guys on this thread?

Steve

Steve

I don't know if it is intentional but you seem to be coming off a little aggressive in this post.

Also you are basing everything you claim on one guy's reputation. Obviously this person is skilled in what he does as the recommendations show. However as Tin has not really commented in this thread ASAIK and I have never seen anywhere an account of the actual work and techniques he uses then it is impossible for anyone else, including you, to say that he 'appears to work totally differently to guys on this thread.'

If someone started a thread on 'marketing consulting' and wished to know what to expect when hiring a marketing consultant, do you think every marketing consultant on this forum would agree on the answer? I think not.

Also would you divulge every single aspect of the work you would undertake for a client? Possibly, possibly not.

If you or anybody else wants a list of all the services an seo would undertake on your behalf then simply google 'seo services', it will not take long to return quite a definitive list.

I think the answer to "what you should expect" is:

(1) uncertain and unpredictable results
(2) to pay and keep paying
(3) to be kept in the dark

This is incorrect, and after re-reading the last few pages of posts I can't really see how you come to this conclusion.

I can't comment on other seo's practices, nobody can comment except on their own or if they have direct experience of them can they?

What you should expect from my seo services are:

- Honesty. We will be open and upfront about the current state of your site and recommended courses of action
- Keyword research. After discussing your business goals we will determine the best keywords to target to gget the right visitors for your website.
- On Page optimisation. We will modify copy, url names, titles, tags, internal link anchors, anything that needs doing really. This could include a complete rebuild of the pages, even if your happy with and want to keey your current layout.
- Off Page optimisation. We will build links into your website sourced from various locations. This will include, but not being limited to, directory submissions, article submissions, possibly some reciprocals if good partners are available, link purchasing, recommendations then, if required, construction of 'link bait' sections of a clients site.
- Reporting. We will employee various reporting methods to monitor and measure keyword performance, visitor levels, conversion rates, and competitors if required.

With regards to pricing it depends on your site and requirements. If you have 10 pages then obviously on page seo work will be a lot shorter than if you have a 30,000 page eCommerce site.

If you want to be top of the list for 'leeds feng shui' it will not require anything like the off page seo work to rank highly for the term 'used cars'.

I would guess that a well optimised 'leeds feng shui' would not require any ongoing seo work and could be done for a one off fee. I know that attempting to rank highly for 'used cars' will definately require ongoing work. Its all about the level of competition.

I can not emphasize enough, every seo solution for every site will be unique, even if it is in a small way. This fact may be what is causing your confusion over practices, but there is NOT a standard seo job which can be applied to every (or even any) websites.

If you are unsure that a quoted price is fair, do what any sensible person does when needing service work doing, get a few quotes, talk to people.

Sorry if this post is taken the wrong way but it seems that all your posts are very argumentative and I can not see any reason for this.

Darren

Aspect Investments

15th January 2007, 17:02

Its getting hot in here.:)

Aspect Investments

15th January 2007, 17:06

I think the best way to approach this problem is go for a company that charges a monthly fee. And ask them to prove they can deliver the results you are looking for.

If they want an up front fee, and cannot prove that they can deliver results, by either showing you their own Google rankings, or one of their clients Google rankings, then steer well clear.:)

sandpetra

15th January 2007, 17:58

LOL - after 4 years on webmasterworld, it's not that hot in here!

Steve

Personally, I think even in the first post I made, I tried to let you in on what you should expect from a "professional" seo, more from the point of view if you are not getting THAT, i.e., some advances in the first couple of months, and by six months, good visibility, then you might not be with the right seo for you. If at six months, with no results, you should be bringing your seo to account.

In latter posts other seo guys have, I think, answered in an intelligent way on the whole.

You seem to be getting a bit defensive / sarcastic when you say "funny, I didn't mention guarantee"

so I will point you to this point you made:

[quote]"Is there a point where SEO is "done"?

i.e. the SEO has finished and the site will remain in it's high position on google without any additional SEO and won't drop off p1 just because of a small algo change?"[\quote]

Well how I am I to interpret this? Would you pay for seo that is complete and will remain number 1 without some form of guarantee from the guy you are giving cash to?

If you would enter into an agreement with this sort of expectation, and an seo accepted it, this would really raise a danger flag with me, and it should anyone.

So I was not "twisting" anything - in fact I agree with Darren that you are being a bit argumentative (but I'm enjoying the distraction:)) - and even twisting MY words when I gave you an example of a client I told to "piss off" you dressed it up as something totally different.

Perhaps I wasn't being clear. The aforementioned client didn't pay for seo on an ongoing basis to keep him a top google (or even one off! It was part of my launching his new site for him - he didn't know anything about websites, google or seo - he asked me when the site was being built (and the brief agreed) "will I appear in Google" and I said "yes. I will make sure you get into Google but seo for your site long term really is a different kettle of fish"!). He bought a website off me. When I said I would make sure it was seo friendly, and promote it (FRO FREE) I didn't mean for the rest of my life!!!!

You're "imagining" that there is a magic bullet to seo for every type of business and every type of website, and that one guy, with one magic knowledge of Google, can help you. This is absurd. Sure, every seo has their own way of doing this, some are better than others, some are con men and others are trustworthy.

With your posts you are propagating this misconception.

Some seos are "algo chasers" (i.e. trying to figure out the maths of Google) others are canny marketeers, myself? - I think am a bit of both - although algo chasing has become more and more of a pointless pursuit for White hat seos.

PS - remember the hairdressing quote? You as the end customer might be paying for a haircut, but the hairdresser has got to work out his costs for that haircut to stay afloat, and believe me, the things I mentioned, he/she will be taking into account to come up with a fair cost for that haircut!

SteveGibson

15th January 2007, 19:25

Darren

I don't know if it is intentional but you seem to be coming off a little aggressive in this post.

I'm beginning to feel like Paxman here, repeating the same question over and over and getting somewhat frustrated that all I'm getting back are answers to different questions, questions I never asked.

I'm trying to help as much as possible by rephrasing myself over and over just in case there's a confusion about where I'm coming from.

But it still strikes me as a simple question that should be easy to understand.

If someone started a thread on 'marketing consulting' and wished to know what to expect when hiring a marketing consultant, do you think every marketing consultant on this forum would agree on the answer? I think not.

That's not what I'm asking. I'm asking about the reasons why different SEOs take such different approaches to SEO.

If you asked a similar question about Marketing, if I had something to add, I believe I'd answer the question you asked to the best of my ability.

And I believe I could do this with enough class that I wouldn't need to make insulting comments such as:

"ie:it changes, if you are unaware of the term try wikipedia."

This is incorrect, and after re-reading the last few pages of posts I can't really see how you come to this conclusion.

I'm a marketer and one of the things that disgusts me about the marketing world is how so many "marketers" like to over-complicate marketing so they can keep their clients:

(1) confused
(2) disempowered
(3) dependent
(4) with their wallets open

This thread was an opportunity for the SEOers on here to simplfy things to an audience of potential customers.

I wonder how many of them have actually learned something that would help them hire the right SEO in the future ... and how many of them are even more confused than before.

I have never seen anywhere an account of the actual work and techniques he uses then it is impossible for anyone else, including you, to say that he 'appears to work totally differently to guys on this thread.'

I'm going by what I've read in his posts over the last year or so. And it that information that informed the question I asked.

Steve

SteveGibson

15th January 2007, 19:49

sandpetra

You seem to be getting a bit defensive / sarcastic when you say "funny, I didn't mention guarantee"

so I will point you to this point you made:

[q]"Is there a point where SEO is "done"?

i.e. the SEO has finished and the site will remain in it's high position on google without any additional SEO and won't drop off p1 just because of a small algo change?"[\q]

Well how I am I to interpret this?

On face value?

It was a question about SEO posed to SEOers. Didn't mention a guarantee or promises made to clients. It didn't even mention clients at all.

even twisting MY words when I gave you an example of a client I told to "piss off" you dressed it up as something totally different.

I took the story you told. This:

"will I appear in Google" and I said "yes. I will make sure you get into Google but seo for your site long term really is a different kettle of fish"!).

changes the story significantly.

You're "imagining" that there is a magic bullet to seo for every type of business and every type of website, and that one guy, with one magic knowledge of Google, can help you. This is absurd.

Actually, I'm not imagining this at all.

It seems - and maybe I'm imagining this - that you guys are suggesting that "he who SEOs last, SEO's loudest" - that it just takes 10 people to come along and SEO after you for the same phrase and you'll drop from 1 to 11.

(obviously a slight exaggeration)

i.e that once you're up there, you're easy to shoot at.

Now, I would have thought that, if SEO is some complicated, it would be like any other complex skill and the better the SEO, the harder it is to trump.

So, the better the SEO, the less need there is to constantly reinforce it against the competition.

However, as Tin has chosen to stay out of this one (perhaps a sign of common sense), we may never know if I was right in inferring that his SEO is "done" and then holds its postion against the competition or if he, as you guys seem to suggest is necessary, has to keep re-doing it if it's a competitive term.

some are con men and others are trustworthy.

With your posts you are propagating this misconception.

Funny, I was thinking that, with your failure to properly address my simple question, you guys were encouraging this perception.

PS - remember the hairdressing quote? You as the end customer might be paying for a haircut, but the hairdresser has got to work out his costs for that haircut to stay afloat, and believe me, the things I mentioned, he/she will be taking into account to come up with a fair cost for that haircut!

Yes, but the prospect doesn't care about this.

You can price your services any way you want but, unless you can give outstanding value to the prospect, he'll go elsewhere and won't give a toss whether you stay afloat or not.

As Jay Abraham once said:

"they are all buying a result, a benefit -- an outcome that is very self-serving to the end user. People could care less why you're in business, that you need to make payroll, or whatever. The only reason they deal with you (or they let you deal with them) is that to some extent they see an advantage in it for themselves"

Steve

sandpetra

15th January 2007, 19:55

Steve

1. Why is there such a discrepancy between what different people are saying? That's life Im afraid. There is patently no "one size fits all" for topping Google in your/all/any sector. Dont listen to anyone who says there is - dont assume someone saying one thing can be applied to your site or sector - don't even listen to a company who guarantees you no1 placement, ESPECIALLY, if it is a one off payment!

2. Why is it necessary to charge on-going fees? Especially in a competitive sector, there is so much competition that you'll probably need some sort of seo on an ongoing basis -ergo some sort of ongoing arrangement with your seo. An seo needs to react to market forces (ie Google) just as any incumbent marketer or ad agency does if they are employed for a set duration of time.

3. Is there a point where SEO is "done"? Perhaps. Look at your web analytics over the last couple of months. Are you getting a good return for your money? If you are, and your site is now an authority site and you are gaining "natural" links, then perhaps you can pull the plug on the seo. Then again, with the state of Google at the moment, there's no guarantee this visibility you have at the moment wont slip over time, as Google changes regularily. What works today might not work as well next month - simple as that. If you are not paying someone to look at it next month, you might slip down the serps. Then again, you may not.

If you are planning on pulling the plug on your poor seo, consider this: What other successful marketing initiatives are you "pulling"? Probably none - so why do you think you can stay on top of Google if you're not 1)an authority site or 2)paying someone to make Google think you are an authority site.

This is key. A good seo will attempt to make Google think you are an authority site. However in the end, it is your responsibility to add content to your site to back this up and become that authority. Once you are, then seo is not such an issue for you anymore.

Hope I have clarified my opinion anyway.:)

sandpetra

15th January 2007, 20:01

LOL - Steve - do you go to your hairdresser and expect to look good in 6 months?:D

We're coming from all different angles here, but I think we'll get there eventually.

I for one am happy to keep at it until we have got things clear. Let's keep it simple and short and get some answers on the thread that helps people.

PS - I dont think I said seo was complicated. You as a marketer would know it's just another form of marketing - part of the mix - and point this out perhaps. It's methodical, logical and time consuming - and with a bit of flair and experimentation (and building on experience) you can get some real results. My girlfriend thinks it's complicated but that's becuase she doesnt know anything about it.

JustOneUK

15th January 2007, 20:14

That's not what I'm asking. I'm asking about the reasons why different SEOs take such different approaches to SEO.

To assist in answering the original question, I thought I would find it...

No wonder us laymen are totally confused about how to select an SEO company and are suspicious about what's real in SEO and what's just a con to extract an ongoing stream of fees.
So, why is there such a discrepancy between what different people are saying?
Why is it necessary to change on-going fees? And how come Tin says he doesn't?

here are the answers
i) No wonder us laymen are totally confused about how to select an SEO company and are suspicious about what's real in SEO and what's just a con to extract an ongoing stream of fees.
So, why is there such a discrepancy between what different people are saying?
SEO is ongoing, even if you are at #1 you should still be keeping an eye on your website, your competitors, building links and watching for algo changes that could spell disaster for your site/business

ii) Why is it necessary to change on-going fees?
If you meant Change? They don't, you set a fee and stick to it.
If you meant Charge? SEO is ongoing to keep up with the competition (if there is any) if it doesn't take much to stay at #1 you shouldn't be charged much (see above)

iii) And how come Tin says he doesn't?
Maybe I am mistaken, I thought Tin said he charges by the hour? Therefore the more hours...the more cost. Did he say otherwise?

you also asked
Is there a point where SEO is "done"?

No. You can always improve even if you are at #1, improving your site will keep your competition further behind. You could have a great site and build natural links..but like i said before, who will be keeping an eye on this for you?

you went on to say
But that doesn't quite address my initial questions of why there's this ongoing charging.
Is it really just a pre-emptive attempt to avoid the possibility that someone might come along and SEO better for the same term?
Absolutely, if you take your foot off the gas your competitor MAY overtake you. (not always the case because your competitor may not know their ass from their elbow)

and..

Tin, another professional SEO, has posted in the past that he has clients who he SEO'd one time years ago and they're still up there
If "google changes every day" (do you mean the algo or just the serps?), how come these sites are still there?

Lack of real competition. Let me know the keywords and we can see if we can knock it off!! :D

Paying someone an ongoing fee for SEO is the correct way to do it, provided they show you evidence of their work and the results are forthcoming over an AGREED period of time.

hope this helps.

James.

sandpetra

15th January 2007, 20:19

James - although you have some different answers to mine - i agree with you! This is the point - everything in seo is opinion (hopefully based on experience) and is proof there is more than one way to interpret anything about marketing your site.:)

PS - Steve some of your arguement is based on conjecture. When referencing poor TIN, you are holding him to "something he said" without any real reference to what he was talking about ie context, client, website, sector, competition etc....

You seem to hold people to what they say (as in this post) without trying to see it in the informative air this opinion is given. It's a forum - an informal and friendly discussion - and it's touching on a lot of things. In some of your posts I see the word's "failure", better than you" etc with a leaning towards some of us seos being secretive or disceptive as well as an air of, well something anyway - I think this is why you've had one or two shirty comments, but with every post you wether unwittingly or not seem to insult or riddicule an opinion - I use an example and you come back with a quote about marketing and that the customer ultimately doesnt give a toss about my business or wether I survive - and LOL - that I need to offering an excellent service!

Do you really think I am ignorant to this? LOL.

PS - Here's a paraphrased quote I like. "My customer doesnt want drills. They want holes" - Bigwig at Black&Decker - I think!

JustOneUK

15th January 2007, 20:40

James - although you have some different answers to mine - i agree with you!

Wahey!, that's the first positive in this thread because I agree with me too :D

I think we more or less say the same things but you are a touch more eloquent. :p

James

darren atkinson

15th January 2007, 21:10

I'm beginning to feel like Paxman here, repeating the same question over and over and getting somewhat frustrated that all I'm getting back are answers to different questions, questions I never asked.

I'm trying to help as much as possible by rephrasing myself over and over just in case there's a confusion about where I'm coming from.

But it still strikes me as a simple question that should be easy to understand.
...
I'm asking about the reasons why different SEOs take such different approaches to SEO.

What is the title of this thread?

This is a different question to 'I'm asking about the reasons why different SEOs take such different approaches to SEO.'

Two different questions with different answers.

I honestly think that the only person confusing the issue here is you.

If anyone else has a genuine question regarding SEO practices then I hope they will feel free to ask, you have asked many different questions even though you claim not to have, and you have had some concise answers.

I have literally stated in black and white exactly what a client would get from me when undertaking an seo project for them. - The answer to the title of the whole thread.

I have also explained more than once, with examples of reasons why seo is complex and different sites require different procedures and ongoing work sometimes. - The answer to the other question you have stated above, and keep claiming nobody is answering.

JustOneUK and sandpetra also have explained many things to you. If you don't have an understanding of the subject now then perhaps it is not worth you continuing.

I don't intend that to sound insulting one bit. When we seo types on here explained some things in basic terms we get accused of tricking clients, or being dishonest. Then when we go technical we are confusing everyone. We cant win.

Darren

PrivateInvestigator

15th January 2007, 21:20

good article. I'm also offering cheap SEO and website building services, as I learned them when promoting my exisiting business online (which I've one well with I think).

http://www.cheap-websitedesign.co.uk

SteveGibson

15th January 2007, 22:56

sandpetra

Steve some of your arguement is based on conjecture. When referencing poor TIN, you are holding him to "something he said" without any real reference to what he was talking about ie context, client, website, sector, competition etc....

In that case, let me clarify this: I believe it was said in the context of "the way he works with clients" (ie his standard practice)

In some of your posts I see the word's "failure", better than you" etc with a leaning towards some of us seos being secretive or disceptive as well as an air of, well something anyway -

The only post on this thread where I almost said "better than you" was where I said:

It's surely not who's "promoting their site more than you", but who's doing better SEO than you.

Which can be taken at face value (whether you wish to agree with it or disagree with it).

And my only reference to "failure" is the failure to answer the question. I'm genuinely amazed that it's so difficult.

I try to empathise, I really do, I spent ages thinking up equivalent questions about marketing but I couldn't think of any similar questions that I couldn't answer in a straightforward way.

I use an example and you come back with a quote about marketing and that the customer ultimately doesnt give a toss about my business or wether I survive - and LOL - that I need to offering an excellent service!

You're changing what I said ... yet again.

What I actually said was:

You can price your services any way you want but, unless you can give outstanding value to the prospect, he'll go elsewhere and won't give a toss whether you stay afloat or not.

As you see, the word I used was "value", not "service". And, of course, these 2 words have very different meanings.

I think my point is perfectly valid.

Or put it this way, did you hire your accountant because you think he offers good value ... or because you felt he really needed your money?

Steve

SteveGibson

15th January 2007, 22:57

JustOneUK and sandpetra also have explained many things to you.

Sandpetra has indeed explained a number of things to me.

Unfortunately just not the one thing I asked about. :( :cool:

If you don't have an understanding of the subject now then perhaps it is not worth you continuing.

That's the second best piece of advice I've received all day. :)

Steve

Tin

15th January 2007, 23:00

Nice to see people are talking about me behind my back and I haven't contributed to this skullduggery one tiny bit.;)
There seems to be basically 2 camps, the one I'm in, and the other one most folk seem to be in and I do not mean to sound smart, cynical or anything else by that it's just that I maybe have a different way of doing seo. While I'm in no position to comment on how others do seo, it may help if I explain a bit about how I work.

Firstly, I play with words. I don't really do links and I don't really have a constant energy available to keep changing the content. My clients don't either.

An accurate guess about the 'split of effort' would be 95% of my seo work is done directly on-site/page! 5% is off-site, it may be even less than 5% off-site. Off-site is obviously link building which I hate with a passion.

On page I play with all the areas that you'll all be familiar with, Title, Description etc including H1 and so on although I don't go down beyond H2 tags as I've found I've not needed to. Obviously, there's the "slap your keywords into the body text malarky too" that bounces around seo forums and is usually one of the simplest of mistakes people make.

Ok, I play with keywords and the reason I said above "I play with words" is simply that the non-keywords are just as important as the keywords and I find this is another area where's there's little analysis or attention paid. I will say that for quite a while I've been offering an seo consultancy service to companies which consists of two 8 hour days of very informative one-one seo advice and the part of the consultancy that deals with page titles and description is a two hour long session. This suggests how important it is to get certain 'popular' parts of a page right. Yet, in lots of seo forums you'll encounter the 'inevitable' stick your keywords in here' type of advice with next to no follow up suggestions.

When designing a brand new site I'll keep the code very tight, make CSS do a lot of the work, and always make provision to allow a H1 tag to be placed within first 24 lines of html. On brand new sites I always link to them even if there's no content at that time and start the clock ticking. Obviously, I'll use the main primary keyword as the anchor text for the link and I'll make sure I fully theme the anchor text at the time I create the link. I always make sure that where I have very little text to play with and within that text there needs to be a link that I semi-theme this area by paying a lot of attention to what's know as 'leading & trailing text. I'm also fully aware that texlinks have different values depending on certain criteria and it becomes quite easy to establish these values by running tests over time.

The majority of my focus is how I use non-keywords in relation to primary keywords and in particular I deploy stop words where most other folk suggest I shouldn't. I'll also build trust into the primary keywords by deliberately diluting them down to almost the point of losing focus entirely with them (not talking about long tail serps here as that's a different thing altogether) I'm talking about deliberately dumbing down the seo in order to build up an overall trust across the site.

Longevity, yep, plenty of clients sitting in the top 3 of Google for years (3, 4 & 5 years) without any changes whatsoever to content and with a handful of simple links (20 is usually adequate).

I don't have any probs with anyone's approach to seo and it's clear some folk have the strongest of faith in their seo abilities and that's all that matters.

Just to clarify some points others had thoughts on
1. I charge a one-off charge based on how much work is involved to get the results the client wants.
2. Once got, the sites stay around the very top for years without any further on-going work. This applies to easy and competitive serps alike.
3. The biggest single reason I don't get hit by algo changes (I believe) is that I only play with the site text and it seems once I get the mix right, rank stability starts to build up. Yes, sites/pages will go up or down a point or two but the pattern is extremely stable over long periods.
4. If a site moves down like has happened recently with one client (has been #1 on Google.com for his primary 2 word phrase for over 3 years) then went off page 1 onto #2 on page 2 it really pays to not make a knee jerk reaction and question the seo work as it can simply be a temp shift on Google's index, within a week he's back at the top again.
If I twitched at every Google blip, I'd just end up chasing my tail by not allowing things to settle and become stable. And yes, sometimes a site/page will need an additional shove back up page 1, this can very often be done by changing text emphasis in a couple of places on the most relevant page. There's very often no additional charge for such work.

Ray

sandpetra

15th January 2007, 23:12

Hi Tin

Very nice to talk with you at last! Your names been banded about a bit!

Actually, the way you approach seo is not that disimilar from myself (except I would put much more of an emphasis on link buidling and internal link structure than you seem to mention (I actually like this game!).

I'll put one question to you (just for discussion mind!:)) - if you mainly concentrate on on-page factors, what's to stop me (if I was competing with you!) just looking at your page code and duplicating it?:eek:

PS - You dont mention the sectors you are in, and size of websites, which could help.

I think this thread is riddled with people talking at odds to each other.

Tin

15th January 2007, 23:23

Hi Shaun,

Missed mentioning about internal link strategies earlier, yep I do those as well. I work across 3-4 pages at the same time and apply different aproaches all, targeting a primary word or phrase. So when you look over the code there's really no pattern to see. It's obvious you'll assume I'm doing some things in certain places for what seems to be an apparent reason but you'll more than likely be wrong in any assumption. I also do the work in 3 phases, coming in by the back door is easier than going for the full-on type approach first.

Every page and client is treated in their own way and so is my working.

Hope that helps.;)

sandpetra

15th January 2007, 23:26

Steve - can we be friends?:)

"Unfortunately just not the one thing I asked about. :( :cool: "

Please clarify in one question - and I will have a go again.

As you can see tin has responded.

It would appear we have two camps!

sandpetra

15th January 2007, 23:33

Hi Ray

Regarding the strategy you use, I've dabbled with this in the past, and while I agree (re trust etc) it has merits - but there's no substitute to doing what you say, and then blasting it with a big organic link campaign.

One more question for you - would you ever guarantee serps like the ones you described for new clients based on a one off fee, in for instance, the mortgage sector, or holidays? Or are you talking about semi competitive areas?

Tin

15th January 2007, 23:56

there's no substitute to doing what you say, and then blasting it with a big organic link campaign. You might have missed my point there, I don't do link campaigns or more precisely, what time I allocate to such activities doesn't span more than one day, usually less. I don't feel the need to charge clients for on-going link building which I find is very often not required to excess.

would you ever guarantee serps never, but I can always demonstrate bags of good results which gives the client sufficient confidence from the start.

Lastly, yes I work in whatever market the client dictates, medium and heavier industries.

sandpetra

16th January 2007, 00:03

Cheers Ray

It's time I got back to work!:)

I guess people reading this thread can employ you on a one-off basis, and if that doesnt work for them, they can come to me!;)

Nice talking with you.:D

SteveGibson

16th January 2007, 00:13

Please clarify in one question - and I will have a go again.

There's really no need. Tin's answer has filled in the gaps.

The answer to the question seems to be simple enough:

The reason you guys charge for ongoing work is because you build links.

The reason Tin doesn't charge like this is that he doesn't need this large scale link building to achieve and maintain high postions.

Simple enough.

Glad we got there in the end.

Steve

sandpetra

16th January 2007, 00:19

Hmmmm......:)

JustOneUK

16th January 2007, 04:37

oooROTFLMAO!ooo :D

regards to all.
James

Aspect Investments

16th January 2007, 10:37

We could keep going round and round with this forever.

Some SEOs have different ways of working than others. If the desired results are achieved and you have value for money then it does not matter how the SEO works in my opinion.

I do think that a site benefits from external SEO as well as onsite SEO. If you have 2 sites with the same onsite SEO, but one site has 20 backlinks, and the other one has 20,000, then I think we all know which one will rank higher.

I know this is true from experience. I had a site with over 1 million backlinks. That site had built up so much trust with Google that you could build a page on basically any subject and it would be listed on the 1st page of Google within a week.:)

JustOneUK

16th January 2007, 12:04

If you do not have someone looking after your interests on an on going basis then your business is basically managing itself. ie: out of control.

20 links can be quite effective without the need for extensive link building provided of course that they are all PR8 or PR9 links :D

James.

I, Brian

16th January 2007, 18:08

There's really no need. Tin's answer has filled in the gaps.

The answer to the question seems to be simple enough:

The reason you guys charge for ongoing work is because you build links.

The reason Tin doesn't charge like this is that he doesn't need this large scale link building to achieve and maintain high postions.

Simple enough.

Glad we got there in the end.

Steve

Are you seriously saying you never read that in any of the previous posts on this 8 page thread? :)

darren atkinson

16th January 2007, 19:28

Are you seriously saying you never read that in any of the previous posts on this 8 page thread? :)

Completely agree with you. All the time we put into explaining seo practices for Steve was wasted (unless anyone else was reading our debate that is).

I don't know why he didn't just PM Tin right from the start and ask how he does seo, as thats obviously all he wanted to know.

Darren

exceldan

16th January 2007, 20:16

Darren - I totally agree with you.

I set out with my SEO skills to help small business’ that don’t have the marketing budget of the big corporate companies and perhaps don’t even have a marketing budget set aside at all.

When you weigh up the return you can get with effective SEO compared with traditional marketing over time SEO is normally the clear winner, or it would be if small business owners knew this.

The very people that SEO could really benefit are the people who know the least about it or don’t grasp just how much they could gain from it.

This is made even more difficult by the bad press that SEO has had, it sometimes feels like SEO is to internet and computing like paparazzi is to photography! It’s a shame too because business owners really can improve their online trading with this service.

Making a site search engine friendly is the easy part - showing someone that they would be better off by using SEO is where the money is really earned!

Dan Cumberland
WebsiteExcel.co.uk

SteveGibson

16th January 2007, 20:44

I, Brian

Are you seriously saying you never read that in any of the previous posts on this 8 page thread?

Yes.

However, if you'd like to give me the date and time of the post that explained that prior to Tin's post, I'll be happy to reconsider my answer to that question.

Judging by your language, I suspect this will be easy for you to do, so I look forward to it.

Darren

Completely agree with you. All the time we put into explaining seo practices for Steve was wasted (unless anyone else was reading our debate that is).

I don't know why he didn't just PM Tin right from the start and ask how he does seo, as thats obviously all he wanted to know.

I asked a question because I was interested in the opinions of the SEOs who are on the forum. That should be evident from the question.

If I only wanted Tin's view, I would have asked him privately. But that would have been a different question.

"All the time we put into explaining seo practices" as you put it, was only wasted (on me) because it didn't answer the question I posed.

Now, if you want to blame me for that ...

Steve

darren atkinson

16th January 2007, 21:02

Steve:

I have to disagree, in post 57 of this thread is my response stating that there were actually 2 different questions posed. You seemed to have missed this.

Also post 46 is a complete run down of everything you asked, not too dissimilar to the post Tin made explaining his seo services. It seems you conveniently missed this, as you never made a reference to it once.

Anyway this is turning into handbags at dawn. ;-)

Darren

sandpetra

16th January 2007, 22:03

from the very first post!!!

"Ask yourself:

• Do you want a nice seo friendly website (can be done in 4 weeks usually - end of job)
• Do you want to rank higher in Google (takes 3-6 months with a 1yr agreement)"

.....doesn't this point lean towards one - an ad-hoc project - and another, long term effort?

No more smilies for you Steve! Everyone else on this forum seems to follow the rules of etiquette but you seem to reply with an air of "I am right, test me" - a bit like a managing director I used to have who was a d*ck.

I dont really like forum bashing (unless it is in good spirit) but i will reply to you Steve in the manner i see you replying, and at the same time, try and keep this thread on topic.

If you really wanted an answer to your question, and having been a member of various forums for 6 years, I would suggest you start another thread as your question wasn't really relevant to the post I started with - IE - what you should get from an seo.

It was meant to act as a bit of reference for people who didn't know a thing, and a realistic timescale to see results which of course was the debatable bit. Your post, although we all tried to answer it, was about why different seo agencies used different models to charge clients.

Your (seemingly) sycophantic support for Tin and your curt, self righteous responses (including your most recent one to Brian) certainly wont get you many sympathies with me, or any body else here it seems ("I don't want your sympathy...yada yada" - I'll put that in for you shall I?

Regarding Tin's answer (I'm sorry you had to be brought into this Tin) but I find it hard to believe any serious marketing effort regarding SEO can be "built in" from the beginning to virtually assure top ranking for years on anything less than an uncompetitive term or company brand name etc.

As you said, Ray, you're in one camp and i am in the other. I accept this and respect your position.

You (Tin) mentioned (I'm paraphrasing here) that I wouldn't be able to work out what you were doing on your sites, as it was playing with words etc, and you seem to avoid filters etc - all of which I found a tad arrogant.:rolleyes:

With this contribution IMHO you added to the myth that top level seo is black magic, that even I:cool:!, with my experience couldn't be able to see what you've done (and believe me, I've copied a lot of things!:)). For me to change my view I would need you to give me what you consider a global competitive keyword and how a site you made ranks for it.

Of course, some seos don't want to do this because they fear competition. so in an air of transparency here's one I did for my client Adpartners in Google (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=advertising+agency&btnG=Google+Search&meta=). I didn't do this with black magic. And if you are saying you could topple positioning like this with one new site and a bit of wordplay (not taking in age of domain and ranking history and 20 other things - not to mention the compeition i beat) - frankly I would love to see it.:D

Sorry Tin, once again - i am really not trying to be rude or combatitive here.:) I do however feel i need to put my thoughts down as we differ quite a bit in at least one respect - ie charging clients, which I dont do without justification.

I'm not saying the position for my client is unsurmountable - far from it. And it could be done - I just don't think without a concerted effort (and one that was white hat and allowed it to remain above it in the years to come).

But you know what - this phrase I showed as an example is not really what I would term a "competitive keyword" - sure if the agency can seem to promote itself better on the net than other advertising agencies, that's good from a marketing point of view, but really competitive terms like loan and holidays etc - when there's black hats and every other type of seo gunning for these terms? A one off-seo bit of mumbo jumbo would be like farting in the wind.

So no wonder people like Steve are confused. I do sympathise here.

If I was to give up seo today, and be asked next year by a contact, should they pay one off for seo, or enter into some kind of results based agreement, I know I would say that from my experience, long term seo support is better if you can get an seo that is willing to work hard for you than paying one time seo.

Steve

**Edited - Too cheeky! ****

Regards everyone (and i mean everyone) who participated in I think my first big post here) - i've enjoyed it and i hope no one takes any comments to heart!

JustOneUK

16th January 2007, 22:06

Great thread,
The title is What SEO Companies Should Give you!

I am not so sure that question has actually been answered yet, or has it?

We seemed to have headed off into a thread about
"why do some SEO's charge on-going fees?"
Kudos to Ray for stepping in with a pretty thorough description of the service he provides, I am not completely sure that it had much to do with the original thread topic.

Right on the first post by Sandpetra he clearly states...

A good seo company will aim to do the following by deploying the most cost effective, time saving techniques to your site:
1. Increase Page Rank
2. Increase Incoming Link Count In Google
3. Increase Relevent Link Count In Google
4. Monitor Results in Google For Targetted keyterms
5. Monitor Increase Traffic Levels to Your Site
6. Modify any part of the site to be more seo friendly (text, code etc)
7....and evaluate results and target & modify etc until targeted keywords are successfully positioned.
8. Ultimately, increase visibility, traffic and sales

Was he wrong?
Can you add to the list?
Is there something that should be taken away from the list?

regards
James.

sandpetra

16th January 2007, 22:19

Brian

Please tell me the women on your website work there for you? If they do, can i get a job there?!

James

Agreed and well in.

PS - i am well aware my post is Google centric. I know more about Google than yahoo and MSN, that's why. Anyone with more experience in yahoo and MSN please comment also.

SteveGibson

16th January 2007, 22:24

Also post 46 is a complete run down of everything you asked

Sorry, but it isn't.

The closest it comes to answering the question is this:

you are basing everything you claim on one guy's reputation. Obviously this person is skilled in what he does as the recommendations show. However as Tin has not really commented in this thread ASAIK and I have never seen anywhere an account of the actual work and techniques he uses then it is impossible for anyone else, including you, to say that he 'appears to work totally differently to guys on this thread.'

This challenges the underlying assumptions behind the question. And that's a perfectly valid approach if done properly.

Unfortunately, your argument doesn't stand up logically.

The fact that you've "never seen anywhere an account of the actual work and techniques he uses" doesn't mean that no-one else has. So, it doesn't make it impossible for anyone else to state that Tin 'appears to work totally differently to guys on this thread.'

(that's a bit like me saying "I've never set eyes on John so no-one can say he exists")

Anyway, I think we now have a clear idea from Tin's post that he does work differently.

So, given the underlying assumptions turned out to be correct, your post doesn't answer the question.

Although a number of posters have tried to suggest my question lacked validity, IMO, Tin's answer showed it was both:

(1) based on a correct understanding of what he had posted in the past
(2) worth asking

And I suspect that the non-SEOs following this thread learned a lot about SEO from Tin's post. So, I'm glad I asked it.

in post 57 of this thread is my response stating that there were actually 2 different questions posed. You seemed to have missed this.

This was where you said:

What is the title of this thread?

This is a different question to 'I'm asking about the reasons why different SEOs take such different approaches to SEO.'

You're absolutely right:

"What is the title of this thread?" and "'I'm asking about the reasons why different SEOs take such different approaches to SEO" are totally different questions.

Joking aside, I have to admit, at the time and ever since, I couldn't understand what you were trying to say or how it related to the discussion.

In this post you said:

different sites require different procedures and ongoing work sometimes

Which is incompatible with Tin's statement about his clients' sites:

"once got, the sites stay around the very top for years without any further on-going work. This applies to easy and competitive serps alike."

So, while it was an expression of an opinion, but didn't explain why this requirment doesn't affect Tin's clients.

And without addressing that point, I'm not sure how you could think you'd answered the question.

I suggest you read the end of Tins' first post. The points 1-4 answer a large part of my question and none of those points were made before Tin made them.

So, the question had been, up to that point, unanswered.

Steve

sandpetra

16th January 2007, 22:27

This thread is pure gold for sig links!;)

SteveGibson

16th January 2007, 22:33

Sandpetra

your curt, self righteous responses (including your most recent one to Brian)

Look at the question Brian asked me:

Are you seriously saying you never read that in any of the previous posts on this 8 page thread?

What's the word "seriously " doing in that question? How does it change the tone of this question.

Save that marketing speak for your clients.

Wow! Now you're telling me what I can and can't post.

I didn't even know you were a moderator.

Steve

sandpetra

16th January 2007, 22:40

LOL - Dont you know how to press the smiley button or know what it means (as in Brian's post)?:)

I dont need to be a mod offer my opionion - after all, that's all it was - that's the beauty of forums!.:p

Tin

16th January 2007, 23:21

Hi Shaun

Shaun, first, I didn't invite myself willingly into this debate on seo, I would have prefered to have been left well out of it but I thought explaining a little about how I work might help somewhat, after all, I have the same right's to an opinion as yourself.
I find it hard to believe any serious marketing effort regarding SEO can be "built in" from the beginning to virtually assure top ranking for years on anything less than an uncompetitive term or company brand name etc. You're entitled to your opinion Shaun:)

As you said, Ray, you're in one camp and i am in the other. I accept this and respect your position. Are you sure you do because your next 4 paragraphs directly below this remark clearly criticise my method of working.

Sorry Tin, once again - i am really not trying to be rude or combatitive here.:) I do however feel i need to put my thoughts down...
And I'm certainly hearing them.

we do differ quite a bit in at least one respect - ie charging clients, which I dont do without justification. A rather nice 'below the belt' comment that implies I charge my clients 'without justification', I hope you can substantiate that one.

For the record, I do not use any sort of 'Black hat' tricks which you are clearly implying, nor do I need to resort to competitor bashing when I notice another seo person works differently to myself.

I have simply suggested on here how I work and hopefully given another side of the coin. After all there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Ray

sandpetra

16th January 2007, 23:29

"A rather nice 'below the belt' comment that implies I charge my clients 'without justification', I hope you can substantiate that one."

Sorry you took it this way. - I certainly didnt mean to infer you didnt or cant justify your costs etc. All that statement was pure my point of view!

I wasnt trying to below the belt, believe me, I cant be that subtle.:)

Nor was i saying your method wont work for some people, or indeed all of your clients.

My honest opinion was all - it's not even your post that was getting me steamed up!

---just seen this too:

" For the record, I do not use any sort of 'Black hat' tricks which you are clearly implying"

Please belive me when i wasnt implying you were black hat. I certainly wasnt - these thoughts were my opinion on the thread you posted and how your way of working differs from mine.

I certainly do not mean any disrepect or aim to target you in particular. You have a different "arguement" than mine - I'm only attempting to dicuss this.:)

darren atkinson

17th January 2007, 00:37

Steve: Pretty much everybody who has contributed to this thread over the last 4 - 5 pages has ended up having a problem with the tone of your posts.

It is my opinion that you have come across augmentative and unable to believe anybodies word except for Tins.

The fact that you've "never seen anywhere an account of the actual work and techniques he uses" doesn't mean that no-one else has. So, it doesn't make it impossible for anyone else to state that Tin 'appears to work totally differently to guys on this thread.'

(that's a bit like me saying "I've never set eyes on John so no-one can say he exists")

Sorry but that is b*ll*cks.

I could start a thread saying that my amazing SEO techniques require no on-page work, no-link building and simply rely on will power alone.

Now if I then had recommendations from satisfied clients on this forum, and you heard I charged no ongoing fee, would you be arguing that I must be a better seo than people who do the work, build links, etc...? I think not.

You have obviously never employed Tin or any other seo to do work for you, otherwise why would you be so interested in finding out what we do and why services differ.

You asked for opinions and reasons for this, yet seemed to dismiss everybody’s comments except for Tins, the only reason I can see for this is your repeated statement that he has good recommendations and your knowledge the he apparently doesn't charge an ongoing fee.

You will probably not do this, but google for seo companies, read as many seo websites as you can find, email them and ask about their services. Get in touch with all the 'big guys' in the world of seo, read their forums, blogs, articles etc…

Then tell me if any of them suggest that they can provide the kind of results that Tin says he can.

In his own words:

Longevity, yep, plenty of clients sitting in the top 3 of Google for years (3, 4 & 5 years) without any changes whatsoever to content and with a handful of simple links (20 is usually adequate).

And lets not mess around, he is definitely talking about 'competitive' keywords and terms with that statement.

I absolutely hate to seem like I am targeting Tin but you (Steve) kept dragging him into this topic, and then he responded with a pretty unbelievable statement.

I am going to be blunt now, which I know before I write it this will sound really harsh and as though its a personal attack on Tins reputation, but here goes.

I well and truly can't believe what Tin claims.

I strongly advise anyone looking into getting seo work done to thoroughly research the subject before hand, and in my opinion do not simply take one guys word for it.

If virtually all major seo's (and minor such as me ;-)) claim that link building is one of the most important parts of seo then there must be some truth in it.

Yes there are false claims around, people trying to trick you with dodgy work, the same as virtually any industry on the planet, but is pretty much every expert on the subject lying?

In the words of the voice over man from big brother: "YOU DECIDE!"

Darren

sandpetra

17th January 2007, 00:53

"but google for seo companies"

you could try "seo companies scotland":)
(http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=seo+companies+scotland&btnG=Search)
Darren I spotted you were about on the forum and i thought you couldnt resist - why i waited!

I agree with you that link buidling is in fact *probably* one of the most important factor in successful seo. On page optimisation is important too, of course, but i think what the majority of us here agree on is that a mixture of both is what's required, and you cant build links in one sitting.

Link building is a creative art (obviously I am not talking about "please link to me emails") - using directories, authority sites and artical submissions, as well as writing useful stuff on your blog - ie linkbait.

It takes a lot of time and in my opinion when done properly, (with a passion, a lot of experimentation and hard work, slaps the **** out of on page optimisation any day.

Although i think that's my point here (finally):) is that seo is a mixture of these disciplines - not just one of them.

Jeez - This is keeping me from my work!

darren atkinson

17th January 2007, 00:55

Darren I spotted you were about on the forum and i thought you couldnt resist - why i waited!

How right you were, I have been attempting to resist this entire thread for days now! ha ha

Darren

JustOneUK

17th January 2007, 01:30

OY you two! Stop this masculine posturing with your google results.
This is not some kind of competition to get to the top of the search engines you know!..oh wait... nope, you are right... carry on!

:D

James.

sandpetra

17th January 2007, 01:43

Ha Ha

You are right! Let's move on from this and go and take our wisdom to the poor souls in other threads!:eek:

I think if this thread continues I'll be "part of the furniture" in record time:)

SteveGibson

17th January 2007, 08:29

darren atkinson wrote

Sorry but that is b*ll*cks.

Well, that's disproved my argument. :D

If I've been sounding "argumentative" on this thread it's because people like Darren have been claiming they answered my question ... and they didn't.

I've taken the time to address their claims and demonstrate why I believe they haven't and, increasingly, they resort to things like "that is b*ll*cks".

Darren, I broke down the logic of what you said into a structure and showed how it was flawed. At least have the class to hold your hand up and accept that your argument didn't make sense.

I could start a thread saying that my amazing SEO techniques require no on-page work, no-link building and simply rely on will power alone.

Again, this analogy doesn't even begin to hold up ...

I've read some stuff from SEO gurus (e.g. Aaron Wall, Brad Fallon) and none of them suggested that will power is part of google's algorithm ... nor is it possible for google programmers to include that variable into their program (how would it be inputed from a page?)

However, I have heard these gurus talking about the importance of the words on the page.

So, your analogy doesn't hold. Though, of course, I don't expect you to admit it.

"You asked for opinions and reasons for this, yet seemed to dismiss everybody’s comments except for Tins"

Actually, I've been willing to take on face value every SEO's claims about:

(a) the methodology he uses
(b) the results he claims to have achieved

Feel free to try to find a post I made where I claim an SEO is being untruthful about either of these. There isn't one.

Nor is there a reason why Tin should be the one SEO excluded from this basic courtesy.

Anyway, I've had enough of this nonsense.

Sadly some of you SEOs haven't been able to continue this debate without resorting to insults, mud-slinging and twisting arguments ... and I'm not willing to sink to those tactics.

I'll leave you to enjoy your playpen gentlemen, because I'm not getting in with you.

Steve

multilingual

17th January 2007, 10:49

If virtually all major seo's (and minor such as me ;-)) claim that link building is one of the most important parts of seo then there must be some truth in it.

This conclusion is based on the principal that a number of very educated and knowledgeable people weigh up all the available evidence and then apply logical reasoning to draw up an answer that is agreeable to the vast majority.

This is the same principal that made eminent scholars in the Middle Ages draw the conclusion that the world was flat.

Now, whilst I am not disagreeing with the theory that link building is important, this theory should not be presented as fact just because a lot of people say it is.

If links are directly related to serps, then it makes the Google results easy to spam, and this is something Google would counter quite easily.

The other problem that I see is that the links should be 'relevant'.

Relevant to whom?

If linking was supposed to flow around relevant industries, then we would have lots of mini-webs floating on the internet and the net, as a whole, would be unable to function correctly. There has to be cross linking between completely irrelevant sites in order to create a single entity called the World Wide Web.

A site that sells discount holiday packages might have a link to a website offering ex-catalogue clothes. There is no relevancy between the sites, but it may be extremely relevant to the visitor at that point in time. (Maybe they want new clothes for their holiday)

Link relevance is very subjective, and I can't really see how Google will place more emphasis on one link over another. Links should be relevant to the person using the site, which is not the same as the links you may add for SEO purposes.

A solicitor is not going to link to another solicitor's web site, so why should it good for SEO?

Also, most of the time, you have no control over who links to you, so I can't understand how Google will penalise your site because someone else links to you.

Basically, what I am saying is that anything that can used to manipulate the search results can easily be countered. Therefore, the most important aspect of a site has to be the on-page content written with the consumer in mind, and this is where the focus should be.

The more sophisticated the search engines become, the easier it will be for them to detect SEO practices. The net result will be that the better you are at SEO, the worse your results will be. ;)

JB

Arhiann

17th January 2007, 11:02

Steve, did you miss this?
And yes, sometimes a site/page will need an additional shove back up page 1, this can very often be done by changing text emphasis in a couple of places on the most relevant page. There's very often no additional charge for such work.

Ray
And I think given what's been said above proves conclusively that what follows below isn't the case. Other SEOs may well be charging for work that Tin (in his own words) often doesn't charge for. It implicitly states there that Tin sometimes charges for the additional work, ergo Tin sometimes makes a further charge. And since Tin doesn't like link building (I'm with you there), it must be something other than links he's charging for. Equally because Tin makes an additional charge, there isn't a distinction between Tin and any others here.

The reason you guys charge for ongoing work is because you build links.

Commonsense dictates in this case. A quick question to Tin (though rhetorical). If, in the unlikely event, I came to you with thirty one sites to optimise for the same phrases, could you possibly get them in the top three pages? Obviously you can change the figures to suit however many top pages of google you want to cover.

Or another way. Tin, if you SEOd for customer X, and customer Y asked you to optimise for the same thing, could you achieve a better result for Y than X? I would think you could. That's why there's ongoing work to be done. It is dynamic, and I struggle to see why you can't see this Steve.

If, however, the definition of "charging for ongoing work" is a regular monthly/quarterly charge, then I think I would agree that that isn't justified. There may well be no extra work justified for some (possibly considerable) time if the original work done was of an excellent standard.

Just because it's excellent though doesn't mean that someone else (or 50 others), can't produce work of the same standard. If SEO is done well in the first place though, I would think it should have some degree of longevity.

For competitive industries I would think the longevity is a function of how long google takes to pick up changes, though not in the sense that it can be done in a month. The effect of changes made to a site may be viewable very quickly, but not enough may have been done in the first instance.

In general, I think that Tin's methods sound, well, sound to me. It seems a far more organic way of doing things than I 've heard espoused by others (not necessarily those on this thread). Based on recommendation that I've heard, if I needed SEO (and I may), I would probably talk to Tin. I'm not interested in paying regular payments to an SEO company. I want the results I've paid for to last some time.

If I was looking (I may be soon) to get some work done on my site I would base this decision on the quality of experts own web site, their page ranking and placement.

Some people here claim to be the authority yet their own sites are poor. I find this very strange.

I probably wouldn't; "cobbler's shoes" and all that. I would base it on examples of work done ;)

A quick question to Tin, this time not rhetorical. Have you ever come across an SEO request that you would consider difficult or impossible to achieve. I guess what I'm asking here is that have you ever been in that competitive a field that you are competing against 50 or 60 sites optimised on a similar basis to the methods you use.

Rob

Aspect Investments

17th January 2007, 11:13

I think the answer to you question Rob, is to look at each job individually, and give the client an honest evaluation of their site, and to dicuss what they are hoping to achieve with SEO, and be honest on whether those results can be acheived within their budget.

multilingual

17th January 2007, 11:19

Arhiann,

with regards to your comment:

I probably wouldn't; "cobbler's shoes" and all that. I would base it on examples of work done ;)

I think you should take into consideration that SEO is a service industry and there are no tangible goods for people to touch and feel in order to understand how good you are.

Therefore there is a heavy weight placed upon othe 'Physical Evidence' in order to build up confidence and trust with a prospective client.

Whilst you may not think it is important how good your site is, the potential client (in this case) clearly does, and this should be taken on board as part of your marketing mix.

If I want a website designed, and the designer's site looks crap, then it is a turn off, even though it may not be reflective of their talents.

Similarly, an SEO expert who has not SEO'd his own site would be a red flag to me, and I am sure others too.

JB

Arhiann

17th January 2007, 11:31

darren atkinson

17th January 2007, 11:33

I've read some stuff from SEO gurus (e.g. Aaron Wall, Brad Fallon) and none of them suggested that will power is part of google's algorithm ... nor is it possible for google programmers to include that variable into their program (how would it be inputed from a page?)

However, I have heard these gurus talking about the importance of the words on the page.

So if you have read stuff from SEO gurus then surely you must have realised that ongoing seo charges would cover work such as ongoing link building?

How can you have knowledge of different elements of the google algo, yet not come to the conclusion that some seo's deem it in their clients interest to continue to build links, monitor ranking positions, and basically continue to manage an seo campaign.

I have categorically told you that if I were to charge a client an ongoing monthly fee, it would be for exactly this.

I have also categorically stated that depending on the individual site, and targeted keywords then ongoing work may or may not be required by myself.

Now if some other seo claims to be able to produce better results with only 20 or so links then I encourage everyone who needs seo work doing to use that particular guy.

In fact I honestly can't understand that if Tin's abilities were as good as he claims, then why is he not a billionaire.

If I, or pretty much anyone else (if their honest) could put a site at the top of google, with 20 or so links and some on page optimisation, which would stay there for 3,4,5 years, do you think I would be working for other people?

- Firstly I could put together some wicked adsense sites and have a 6 figure monthly income.
- I would pick an industry where I could sell products via an ecommerce site, and as my advertising costs would be nothing, I could comfortably put virtually any online competitor out of business.
- I would package all my knowledge and techniques and sell them to companies for literally millions.

The point is, when something sounds to good to be true it usually is.

NOTE: I never intended to attack anybody's reputation when I started commenting on this topic. Unfortunately for Tin, SteveGibson kept dragging his name into the discussion.

The reason for my comments on Tins post is that I honestly believe that what he stated is incorrect and misleading for the average person reading this thread.

This is not a personal attack, and if it is anyway construed as slanderous in any way shape or form, please delete this post immediately.

I am not commenting on Tin, or his business. I am simply voicing an opinion on comments made in a public forum.

multilingual

17th January 2007, 11:40

Granted, or course for some it would be a red flag. But, conversely, I know of some very good professionals, highly respected in their own field, that don't have their own house in order with regard to their own profession.

Their own website is only one (very limited) example. I would be more insterested in multiple examples and natural consequence of this would be the ability to check references too.

I agree.

Testimonials and work examples are the best way to promote your business, but you would need to get them to contact you first before you could show those things.

If people are turned off because your site is not very well put together then they probably won't call you. So you are giving some potential clients a reason to go elsewhere.

Why would you do that?

JB

Arhiann

17th January 2007, 11:44

If people are turned off because your site is not very well put together then they probably won't call you. So you are giving some potential clients a reason to go elsewhere.

Why would you do that?

JB

Because you are that busy with work through recommendations that you don't have the time or inclination to do it for yourself ;)

You're making the assumption that majority of the SEO work will come through the website, when in fact, for someone successful, it's more likely through recommendation.

darren atkinson

17th January 2007, 11:47

Similarly, an SEO expert who has not SEO'd his own site would be a red flag to me, and I am sure others too.

JB

I completely agree with you.

I'm not sure whether I need to comment on this or not, but if anyone is interested here are my excuses....

(Cue the laughs, sneers, and general attitude that I must be a liar and my previous comments are all totally invalid ;))

My personal website: www.darrenatkinson.co.uk that is in my sig has recently (I.E. last week) been redeveloped.

As some people may know, it used to be a site regarding my IT support business which I run in Hull. I had a small section (2 pages) related to websites and seo work.

After analysis of my business and general direction in life, I made the decision to separate IT support work from Web Design and SEO work. I chose to re-launch my support site at www.atkinsonit.co.uk - which is also in my sig, and completely redevelop my original site.

This is why it ranks poorly at this time.

That’s it, excuses are all finished. Hopefully the fact I have gone and record, and am holding my hands up to having a (currently) poor website in terms of seo shows something...

Well maybe not ;)

Darren

multilingual

17th January 2007, 11:53

Arhiann

17th January 2007, 12:05

Fair enough :)

I am not suggesting that most of your work comes from the website, I am just drawing a conclusion that if some people expect to see your site in a certain way, then (from a marketing point of view) you should react to those needs and alter it to make the most of the opportunities out there.

:)

JB

Yes, of course. But as I said, I *probably* wouldn't consider it to be a problem. It's that and a combination of other things. We're good at what we do, but I couldn't show you one example of work in our field that we've produced for ourselves, because we've never done any. I'm always too busy with other things. SEO isn't my thing though, but I'm starting to get interested in it.

Either approach is valid, I'm just saying the an SEO company's website isn't the "be-all" ;)

multilingual

17th January 2007, 13:40

Would it not be better if the resident SEO experts let everyone see some of their success stories instead of the pulling each others methods down, in an attempt to make themselves appear better than their competitors.

Just an idea

Suddenly it all went quiet.

Could somebody arrange for a lone tumbleweed to roll by at this point?

;)

JB

Aspect Investments

17th January 2007, 13:44

LOL ML.

If anyone wants to see an example of my SEO im quite happy to provide it by PM only. I dont like to brag.;)

JustOneUK

17th January 2007, 13:47

If anyone wants to see an example of my SEO im quite happy to provide it by PM only. I dont like to brag.;)

I would, PM it all to me please. :)

Thankyou.
James.

multilingual

17th January 2007, 13:49

I would, PM it all to me please. :)

Thankyou.
James.

Yep, send me a PM as well :)

Looking forward to looking at the work.

JB

Aspect Investments

17th January 2007, 13:51

Oh no, ive started something now. LOL!

Arhiann

17th January 2007, 14:09

On you go then, me too.

Arhiann

17th January 2007, 14:11

True enough an SEO's website is not the be all and end all however if you cannot get a personal recommendation from someone from that has seen long term benefits, what other method can you base your judgement on?

I wouldn't go ahead with SEO without a verifiable recommendation and examples of results. That's why, for me, their website isn't that important.

JustOneUK

17th January 2007, 14:43

I wouldn't go ahead with SEO without a verifiable recommendation and examples of results. That's why, for me, their website isn't that important.

That's great advice, however the person your are asking for the verifiable recommendation... what on earth do they know about SEO?

That's like my mate (who knows nothing about cars) recommending a mechanic to me because he had a spot of welding done, what does my mate know about welding? nothing, it might fall apart next month.

If you want SEO done.. ask another SEO what they think.

James.

mattk

17th January 2007, 15:08

I personally would not use the services of an SEO expert if their website had a PR of less than 3.
Now we're getting into the realms of fantasy!

Arhiann

17th January 2007, 15:14

That's great advice, however the person your are asking for the verifiable recommendation... what on earth do they know about SEO?

It doesn't really matter what they know, or what they think they know about SEO. Results are what matter. It's not really a function of how difficult a given task is, it's whether they did what they said they would. It's not a judgement on how good their skills are, it's a judgement on how well they perform based on the task set.

That's like my mate (who knows nothing about cars) recommending a mechanic to me because he had a spot of welding done, what does my mate know about welding? nothing, it might fall apart next month.

No it's not. I'm referring to me. You're assuming I know nothing about SEO, and that's not the case. Granted it's not my thing, but I think I know enough to spot whether I'm being BSd or not. Realistically, I couldn't give a damn what you do (to an extent), as long as it achieves results.

Arhiann

17th January 2007, 15:39

All this tosh about my own site does not matter is simply laughable.

Then you really haven't read the thread, because it doesn't say that anywhere. Or more correctly, I didn't say that anywhere and I believe you're referring to me.

JustOneUK

17th January 2007, 15:57

It doesn't really matter what they know, or what they think they know about SEO. Results are what matter. It's not really a function of how difficult a given task is, it's whether they did what they said they would. It's not a judgement on how good their skills are, it's a judgement on how well they perform based on the task set.

I agree with what you are saying but that would only give a reflection of the services provided and not the actual skills of the SEO involved.

Example:
I was asked to make a website for a chap about crawley carpet cleaning (http://www.crawleycarpetcleaning.co.uk), and get it onto the search engines for that term. I explained that I could easily (in less than an hour) make him a site that would sit on the top of all 3 search engines for that term AND crawley carpet cleaners (http://www.crawleycarpetcleaning.co.uk) at the same time. So that's what I did. Obviously I knew that domain name would pretty much sit there by itself.

He is happy with what I have done, it's exactly what I said I would.
Would a recommendation from him be worth anything in SEO terms?
No, because he cleans carpets (http://www.crawleycarpetcleaning.co.uk) and knows nothing at all about search engines or SEO. He certainly couldn't have done it himself, but in SEO skill assessment terms it has no value.

James.
Did you notice my ongoing SEO skills in this post at all? :rolleyes:

Aspect Investments

17th January 2007, 16:09

Its number 3 on google. He will be wanting his money back.:)

JustOneUK

17th January 2007, 16:18

Not for his primary search term which is #1 (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=crawley+carpet+cleaning&btnG=Google+Search)

and I only GUARANTEED top 5 :D

James.

Arhiann

17th January 2007, 16:37

II was asked to make a website for a chap about crawley carpet cleaning (http://www.crawleycarpetcleaning.co.uk), and get it onto the search engines for that term. I explained that I could easily (in less than an hour) make him a site that would sit on the top of all 3 search engines for that term AND crawley carpet cleaners (http://www.crawleycarpetcleaning.co.uk) at the same time. So that's what I did. Obviously I knew that domain name would pretty much sit there by itself.

He is happy with what I have done, it's exactly what I said I would.
Would a recommendation from him be worth anything in SEO terms?
No, because he cleans carpets (http://www.crawleycarpetcleaning.co.uk) and knows nothing at all about search engines or SEO. He certainly couldn't have done it himself, but in SEO skill assessment terms it has no value.

Sneaky, very, very, sneaky. I fear I may have underestimated your sneakiness.

I'm still going to disagree with you. The recommendation has a value. It may not be an assessment of your skills and I never said that it was. It is an assessment of the way you conduct yourself in business and that's possibly more important than your skill set. I don't think I'm alone in thinking that doing what you say you will do is paramount (and yet so many people get this wrong). In fact, if other's assessments of your nature are correct, then there is a fair likelihood that you will tell me if this isn't something you're capable of.

For me, selecting a supplier starts initially with asking around. That's only the start. If an SEO has failed to live up to expectations, then they won't get a recommendation from anyone. They won't even be on my radar. I know I'm not alone in taking advantage of other's experiences. People do it to me all the time (take advantage that is, I wish my wife would sometimes).

As I said previously, I wouldn't go ahead without a recommendation. There are further hoops to jump through as well.

sandpetra

17th January 2007, 19:43

This thread seems to be going in all diffferent directions. I think it’s probably unfair to target any one person or view regardles of how much faith in his own logic that person has, and I think this thread has survived, just, because most of the people on here are actually trying to give their honest opinion of what works and what doesn’t. Saying one person is right and one person is wrong is absurd. Or one method works better than all the rest. Or one seo is better than another. ONLY SITHS DEAL IN ABSOLUTES:)

I’ll try and refocus the thread and sum up a wee bit (feel free to comment!

How You Should SELECT your SEO

Ideally, I think you should investigate as much as possible. As with anything in life, there is risk involved.

A few things to consider:

• Read Google SEO guidelines (http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?answer=35291)
• Refferals from contacts who "vouch" for the seo - i.e. They’ve done a good job for “them”
• An appraisel of clients and appraisel of any client sites they've worked on.
• How visible the seo himself/herself is in the search engines
• Personal. Once you meet your seo, do you think you can work with them.
• Get a Couple Of quotes and try to base your decision on previous results an seo can show you

Obviously there are discrepencies and exceptions to every rule. Take my new search engine optimisation company (http://www.hobo-web.co.uk/) - it took us 3-6 months to feature in Google at all, probably because i was too aggresive with on-page optimisation and link building from the outset (This is what i expected to happen). Now 9 months later we have a trusted google Page Rank 6 site and feature on the first page of Google for a lot of seo terms I am interested in like "best seo scotland (http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=DKG&q=best+seo+scotland&btnG=Search)" (ha ha:)) and i get a new business call every other day, all sourced from Google, MSN etc.

With part one of the process out of the way, some more experience gained, research compiled, new ideas absorbed etc now I will spend the next 6 months trying to get to the very top for my main money earning keywords, while I of course try to satisfy my growing client list. I'm happy to at least feature in the 1st page for my seo efforts at this time, and it TOOK TIME to monitor my performances because of the way Google doesnt let you see the immediate cause and effect of seo. Even visible google page rank is thought to be 3-6 months out of date!

How NOT to SELECT your SEO

• If your SEO guarantees you anything, a red flag should be raised.
• If a SEO says he works WITH Google, again beware - Google doesnt work WITH any seo. They only publish good practice guidelines seos should stay within if you dont want Google to penalise you.
• Beware unsolicited email with little or no relevance to you or your business. You should be able to tell this easily. If the email is totally targetted at your business, with some useful / correct assumptions about your ranking, ask them to come and visit you. There's no harm in it. If it is not, and looks like spam, just forget about it.
• Do not enter into any type of agreement until the project aims and targets have been specified. A good seo will tell you whats realistic and what's not for your budget and the resources he can deploy to meet your aims.

Why do most seo companies charge on going fees?

Because of the work, research and analysis that is required over time in some sectors. YES - you can seo a site in one sitting, in an Ad-hoc project, which can deliver good results that stay the course over a large period of time. But this all depends on how competitive your sector is and what your aims as a business are. AND OF COURSE, part of ongoing seo is to consolidate good intial search engine rankings and FURTHER IMPROVE ON THEM. Most recent research alludes to the fact that searchers now dont go past the first FIVE results on the 1st pagee, making seo even harder in 2007, and all the more reason to aim for the top.

No matter how good your on-site seo is, it can be undeniably consolidated and improved by further promoting your site (ie ultimately getting links to your site from many different sources). I think you would find it hard to find a contradictory argument to this anywhere. There’s always room for improvement as in any walk of life.

But if paying for SEO every month, you want to see montly traffic stats, keyword positions, increased sales etc - ie constant improvement. You can hold your seo to account. If you pay one off for seo, youre unlikely to be able to expect even a constant visibility on Google never mind an improvement over time.

It is important you know Google changes all the time, with no warning. For instance, there is a lot of debate in the last week that Google is changing the way it handles "plurals" of words If correct, how does that impact on the ad-hoc project you comissioned six months ago?

This is proof that no amount of word play / on site seo is foolproof and time proof and cannot inardvertaintly trip a filter in Google today, tomorrow or next year.

Experienced webmasters have seen their sites completely vanish from Google for months because a new filter is applied or “turned up” (although this is conjecture – no one person knows how Google works – if they do, they are keeping quiet about it and making a fortune for themselves – not others.) For instance, one guy added 4 BILLION pages of spam to Google last year, using a simple domain trick, upsetting a lot of people, and forcing Google to actually change the way it handles sub-domains now.

In the end, you must decide, based on return on investment, what’s the right costing model for you. One off – or long term seo.

How A Search Engine Ranks Your Website

The following factors are seo speculation (http://www.internetmarketing101.org.uk/) on some of the considerations search engines may presently be using or which could be built into their algorithms.

* Age of site
* Length of time the domain has been registered
* Age of content
* Frequency of content: regularity with which new content is added
* Text size: number of words / ketyword density
* Age of link and reputation of linking site
* Standard on-site factors (some of which Tin mentions in an earlier post)
* Negative scoring for on-site factors (for example, a dampening for websites with extensive keyword meta-tags indicative of having been Over Optimised [^SEO-ed])
* Uniqueness of content
* Related terms used in content (the terms that the search engine associates as being related to the main content of the page)
* Google Pagerank (Only used in Google's algorithm)
* External links, the anchor text in those external links and in the sites/pages containing those links
* Citations and research sources (indicating the content is of research quality)
* Stem-related terms in the search engine's database (for example, finance/financing)
* Incoming backlinks and anchor text of incoming backlinks
* Negative scoring for some incoming backlinks (perhaps those coming from low value pages, reciprocated backlinks, etc.)
* Rate of acquisition of backlinks: too many too fast could indicate "unnatural" link buying activity
* Text surrounding outward links and incoming backlinks. A link following the words "Sponsored Links" could be ignored
* Use of "rel=nofollow" to suggest that the search engine should ignore the link
* Depth of document in site
* Metrics collected from other sources, such as monitoring how frequently users hit the back button when SERPs send them to a particular page
* Metrics collected from sources like the Google Toolbar, Google Analytics, Google AdWords/Adsense programs, etc.
* Metrics collected in data-sharing arrangements with third parties (like providers of statistical programs used to monitor site traffic)
* Rate of removal of incoming links to the site
* Use of sub-domains, use of keywords in sub-domains and volume of content on sub-domains… and negative scoring for such activity
* Semantic connections of hosted documents
* Rate of document addition or change
* IP of hosting service and the number/quality of other sites hosted on that IP
* Other affiliations of linking site with the linked site (do they share an IP? have a common postal address on the "contact us" page?)
* Technical matters like use of 301 or 302 to redirect moved pages, showing a 404 server header rather than a 200 server header for pages that don't exist, proper use of robots.txt
* Hosting uptime
* Whether the site serves different content to different categories of users (cloaking)
* Broken outgoing links not rectified promptly
* Unsafe or illegal content
* Quality of HTML coding, presence of coding errors
* Actual click-through rates observed by the search engines for listings displayed on their SERPs
* Hand ranking by humans of the most frequently accessed SERPs

TOP TIP

In the end, it can all come down to the content on your site. Is it valuable, up to date and unique? If it is you can enjoy good rankings probably ad-hoc or ongoing agreement. A unique site should be your ultimate goal, and your seo should be used to promote it, until it has achieved the position in serps you desire or need, or a level of lead generation you are content with.

Content is king as they say, links are Queen in my opinion.

Regards