SEO self-help thread

[I, Brian]

It's been mentioned before that businesses in general should be better aware of SEO issues.

On the one hand, it can help alert you to basic pitfalls to avoid from the start.

On the other hand, if you ever need to hire a SEO, you would have a better idea of what you would actually need rather than a generic "SEO".

A pointer on SEO companies - some will advertise who their clients are. Some will never tell you their clients. Neither suggests anything about the company abilities.

Something to be also aware of is that there are a lot of specialities within SEO - so don't be surprised if there is general agreement on basics, but differences on how to develop more advanced strategies from different SEO companies.

Also, do ensure that you don't try "easy" short cuts, such as buying only on price, or filling your site with hidden content only for search engines - unless you're prepared to accept the risks that come with it: getting monkeys for peanuts, or else even having your site banned.

Where possible, listen to recommendations from people you trust.

Anyway, here's a couple of key resources to help find yourself around the world of SEO:

Introduction to SEO: http://www.seomoz.org/beginners.php

Rand Fishkin's beginner's guide to SEO. You can also find interesting commentaries on SEO issues at his blog: http://www.seomoz.org/blog.php

Search engine news: http://searchengineland.com

Provides regular news on the search engine industry. Edited by Danny Sullivan, it replaces SearchEngineWatch as the authoritive voice of the industry, after a recent buy out saw the key staff leave.

Google's Matt Cutts: http://www.mattcutts.com/blog/

Google engineer Matt Cutt's public responses to common Google issues, and often covers SEO issues by example. Do be aware that there is a degree of Public Relations work here, so be careful


A couple of high-flying SEO's who write interesting commentaries on SEO and the general industry:

Andy Beal: http://www.marketingpilgrim.com/
Jim Boykin: http://www.jimboykin.com/
Todd Malicoat: http://www.stuntdubl.com/
Aaron Wall: http://www.seobook.com/

Each has a different take on the industry, but all provide useful information for those looking for it.

Aaron Wall also writes SEO Book, which is probably the leading popular text on learning your way around SEO in more detail:

http://www.seobook.com/buy-now.shtml

Ignore the American sales copy - it really is worth the reading for anyone looking to understand basic to intermediate SEO issues.

Anyway, hope that helps - any more questions, I'm sure that Tin, yorganic, myself, and other SEO's on UKBF would be happy to try and answer any questions.

[Yorganic]

Brian, a good intro.

I would like to add that SEO should be considered like any other form of marketing where the budget dictates what is possible and the strategy may be different depending on whether the budget is large or small etc.

Too many clients want to know a price when they should be thinking about a budget and, it is often very difficult to convince them otherwise.

[Aspect Investments]

Nice post Brian.

You should have a budget for SEO, like you have a budget for any other form of advertising or marketing.

The benefit of good SEO is when its done right it slashes your advertising and marketing costs by 90%.

Why pay £2.00 per click to get on the first page of Google when you can get there with good SEO, and get all your clicks for free.

[leemason]

Does anyone have direct experience of using an companies to do the SEO work for you? I have contacted a few and the costs vary massively but what they promise seems very similar. I have done some work myself but google particularly seems to be a up hill struggle!

I use google adwords but don't believe that this is the best direction for the future.

[Aspect Investments]

I think SEO companies tend to charge what they think they can get away with.

I charge a monthy fee for my SEO work, you can then see the benefits of what you are paying for.

[PeteA]

When you understand SEO what is the need to pay for it?

No mention of www.highrankings.com (http://www.highrankings.com), their free newsletter is very good.

[Tin]

I think SEO companies tend to charge what they think they can get away with.
Can't say whether you're right or wrong as I don't know any seo companies who work that way. The few I know well, work on the same basis as myself - price is determined by the number of hours any given client wants me to site on my backside working away on their behalf. A 10 keyword client takes me a lot less time than a 100 keyword client.

I charge a monthy fee for my SEO work, you can then see the benefits of what you are paying for.

Interesting, I've never charged a monthly fee as I believe that's a bit like expecting the client to have an open cheque book. I agree a price directly related to the work involved (man hours) do it, then invoice client the one-off agreed fee. Just wondering what you're doing monthly for the client, I presume it's building IBL's.

[Aspect Investments]

The reason I charge a monthly fee is so the client can see the benefit of the work.
I could say ok its going to take me x amount of hours and it will cost x amount of pounds. But how do they know that what will be done will benefit them? They are only taking the word of the SEO on how good they actually are, and if what they do will bring results.

[Tin]

I could say ok its going to take me x amount of hours and it will cost x amount of pounds.

I think it's best if I don't comment further as subsequent posts could take the best intentions of Brians thread off on another tangent. Rainy day comes to mind.;)

[PeteA]

I guess how anyone pays is irrelevant as long as the work is considered worthwhile by the client.

[Aspect Investments]

Thats my point Tracy. How does the client know that the SEO will benefit them, if they know nothing about SEO. Once they have paid for the work to be done and the results do not come, is the SEO company going to give them their money back? I doubt it.

[PeteA]

EBA, if it's working for you then good luck to you.

[LindasAvonTeam]

Thank you for posting this very useful information. Lots of reading to do now!

[UKSBD]

Does anyone have direct experience of using an companies to do the SEO work for you? I have contacted a few and the costs vary massively but what they promise seems very similar.

The reason prices vary so much is because good SEO's can charge what they
like and if they don't get the job there is plenty more work out there.
I do very little SEO for anyone else any more, the reason being most people
couldn't afford to pay me what I can make from optimising my own sites.

Realistically, if anyone wanted me to do any optimising for them it would
mean I would initially have to spend an hour checking over their site, checking
what had previosly been done, researching their keywords and seeing if what
they wanted to achieve was realistic on their budget.
An hour doing this is an hour lost working on my own pages and the only way
I could do it is by charging an initial fee just for an initial check.
Would anyone be prepared to pay the fee I would want for this?
I very much doubt it, and I also suspect about 90% of people couldn't afford
it to have their sites optimised really well even if they did pay the initial fee.

[Rusty]

The reason prices vary so much is because good SEO's can charge what they
like and if they don't get the job there is plenty more work out there.

From experience SEOs are unable to charge anything like what they are worth simply because there is nothing tangible for the client to see. Most of the companies who are seeking to be on the top of the search engines are on tight or non existent budgets.

There are also far too many website designers/developers out there purporting to be experienced SEO'ers who take a clients good money and then do not deliver the goods. Too late is the cry, one disallusioned and out of pocket client with a near useless site.

I really wish there was some kind of regulation that would stop these unscrupulous companies then there would be more faith left for those individuals who can deliver a tight, effectively SEOed website that will work for a client.

Sorry rant over :eek:

Also apologies to the OP as this has definitely drifted off the original intentions.

[UKSBD]

From experience SEOs are unable to charge anything like what they are worth simply because there is nothing tangible for the client to see.

That was my main point really.
Most people couldn't afford to pay a good SEO what he is worth, that doesn't
mean the good SEO should drop his prices though, which leads to such a big
variation in prices.

[PeteA]

Web designers generally design themselves well optimised websites, if they did the same for their clients would there be a need to pay anyone for SEO?

[SteveGibson]

I really wish there was some kind of regulation that would stop these unscrupulous companies

Thank christ there isn't!

Who would regulate the business? The government? A bunch of civil servants who would know the difference between good an bad SEO.

All that would happen is that always happens: people who are good at lobbying would seduce the regulators into setting the rules in their favour.

And everyone would need a nonsense qualification that only proves they've learned a particular set of opinions (that don't work particularly well).

It has to be the responsibility of the client to pick the right SEO company.

Having said this, I'm genuinely sympathetic towards anyone who's looking for professional SEO because most people don't know what they're getting into and what sort of dangers are out there.

Google (which is really what SEO is all about right now) has a big stick and isn't slow to beat websites it catches using underhand techniques.

And many of the "SEO" companies I see are using these techniques.

So, it isn't hard to look into the future to see how life is going to pan out for their clients.

I can see this because I know far more about google than most people (though nowhere near enough that I'd claim to "know SEO").

However, most business people can't see the difference between these tricksters and the handful of people who do real white hat, organic SEO that google loves.

And, as this long lasting, google-friendly, white hat SEO takes a lot more time and expertise than the spammy, through-the-latest-loophole type, it is often out the price range of smaller businesses and they end up going with an SEO company that won't get them lasting (or meaningful) results.

These facts are something I chose to leave out of my recent article on search engine marketing (http://www.greaterprofitsguaranteed.com/search-engine-marketing.html), rather than enrage the SEO community, but it's another reason why I believe that most businesses should be looking to PPC before they look at SEO.

Steve

[Rusty]

Web designers generally design themselves well optimised websites, if they did the same for their clients would there be a need to pay anyone for SEO?
This is often not the case, I all too frequently see Web designers offering SEO services and one very inexperienced look at their sites leaves you wondering what they are offering. If they are offering this service you would expect that they would have ensured that their own site was well optimised.

My gripe is that Web designers/developers who have a little bit of knowledge sucker the clients in, take their hard earned cash, don't deliver, then leave the client with a near useless site.

Maybe I should have said a standard or a guide, some means by which companies looking for good SEO are not taken in by companies who talk SEO, advertise SEO but don't deliver.

[LindsayManning]

Wow, excellent reading, and some good points there.

I for one am very glad to see Google's algorithm being in the clever state it is in at the moment.
I am on the steep part of the SEO learning curve at the moment, and keep learning new things. I agree that some places want to charge a one off high fee, they will do something a bit quick fixey like Google Bowling, and get quick results and grab the money and run. As long as 1 month later you see that you have jumped from 100th in the list to 5th then you will pay and 2 months later when you slip back to 100th there isnt really much you can do.
I do think that google analytics and webmaster tools are fantastic for showing monthly momentum and to show that a website is making steady but strong progress. I am also very glad to see that Yahoo is also now starting to offer similar analytics tools.
I guess the way forward is always going to be not to try and outsmart Google, just stick with a well laid out, well tagged, and titled anchors and meaningful text, and then get the thing listed in the correct places that are relevant to have the right keywords back to you.
Some of those webmasters tools amaze me with showing what you want a search engine to pick up from a site, and what it is actually picking up about it.
I guess this will be a business that will be around for a while, that will always need little tricks to put you 1 jump higher than the others.

Cheers,

Lins.

[mattk]

From experience SEOs are unable to charge anything like what they are worth simply because there is nothing tangible for the client to see. Most of the companies who are seeking to be on the top of the search engines are on tight or non existent budgets.
Surely the tangible results of paying for SEO is that your site ranks at the top of the SERP for your chosen terms?

[PeteA]

How can anyone really be a true SEO expert with the secrecy that surrounds Google?

[philsmears]

Other than doing the below is there something more to SEO that I don't know about?
1. Make your web site standards compliant and accessible.
2. Put good content on it which will attract visitors and inbound links.
3. Play around a bit with keywords both in link text and content and see if anything happens.

[I, Brian]

A couple of points being raised which are interesting:

1. If you read up on SEO, you know SEO

I would very much disagree with this.

Just because I know how to do my own book keeping and have read about tax laws does not an accountant make me.

Sure, I can try doing all my accounting myself - but a good accountant will always be able to do it better, and save me both time and money.

SEO is a speciality as well, and a good SEO will not simply save you time and money, but should also increase revenues and profits, not least because they devote their daily routine to monitoring changes on search engines.

Also - be very warned that a lot of "SEO advice" offered on forums is junk by those with little commercial experience. Everyone's an armchair critic online.

2. Fee structure

As I originally mentioned, there are different specialities within SEO, and different fee models that come with it.

For example, I specialise in link development so I charge a monthly fee based on the link development costs. This covers renting links on my own sites, and paying for links via a private broker. Basic optimisation for sites I usually include as a support element, but it really depends on the amount of work required.

It's also worth pointing out that a retainer even after on-site work can be a good thing. If your website suddenly goes supplemental in Google, drops exactly to Page 3 for keywords, or experiences unexplained indexing problems, you'll want advice on tap now from someone who can help provide information and practical help.

3. SEO's charge what they can

Some companies/individuals will try to charge what they can get away with - but this is the same in any sector.

This is why personal recommendations are often key.

There's a real variety in ability and skillsets in SEO, but the pricing doesn't always reflect this.

Some will charge less than others simply because they have lower overheads - working at home rather than a rented office, for example.

Some will charge more simply out of vanity.

You see this across all industries. That's why basic awareness of SEO awareness can help you find the wheat in the chaffe, and hence why I've posted resources to help with this.

Hope that helps.

[I, Brian]

How can anyone really be a true SEO expert with the secrecy that surrounds Google?

That's the point - Google isn't entirely secretive.

You can run your own network of websites where you make and track changes across different industries, even keywords. I only have 150, but it's enough to get meaningful results.

Also, everytime Google is granted a patent, the details of this are published online and the ramifications discussed.

Additionally, awareness of what services a search engine has - such as Google - and how they are integrating them with other services, can also provide important leverage.

Awareness of what is currently happening in Google's results, coupled with an awareness of what may be behind at least some of them, can empower a SEO to make valuable strategic decisions.

And as before, most businesses outside of SEO simply cannot commit to the level of resources and time required to keep on top of everything going on with search engines.

[I, Brian]

Surely the tangible results of paying for SEO is that your site ranks at the top of the SERP for your chosen terms?

Absolutely right.

The point about SEO isn't simply ranking on search engines - it's ranking for commercially useful keywords which deliver traffic and sales.

There's little point trying to rank for "mortgage advice shops, Norwich" if you can budget to rank for "mortgage brokers". The difference in potential revenues between the placements is HUGE.

[Aspect Investments]

Absolutely right.

The point about SEO isn't simply ranking on search engines - it's ranking for commercially useful keywords which deliver traffic and sales.

There's little point trying to rank for "mortgage advice shops, Norwich" if you can budget to rank for "mortgage brokers". The difference in potential revenues between the placements is HUGE.

I agree Brian.
Whats the point of being on the 1st page of Google for a search term that no one is going to search for.

I had an email from an SEO company many years ago as you do, and they were raving on about how they had got this guys site to number one position on Google for the search term "Vagabond Dive".

Hi URL was http://www.vagabond-dive.com/ impressive eh? Not, LOL

[UKSBD]

Although I agree with the majority of that, the majority of small companies
don't realise how expensive it can be to rank for competitive terms.

The problem is unscrupulous SEO's don't tell them that and are happy to
charge them a fee when it is impossible to deliver the results. (which is why
there is such a desrepency in costs)

Far better in my opinion to be honest up front, tell them how much it will
cost and be prepared to not get the job.

Altternatively base the keywords on their budget.
Using your "Mortgage Brokers" example (nice example ;o) )
Add a location on the end of it and it is within anyones budget to get a top
10 ranking.
Where as if they want to rank for "Mortgages" "Loans" "Secured Loans" etc.
it's not even worth attempting unless they have to have a lot bigger budget.

[philsmears]

As far as I'm concerned SEO died when search engines like Google figured out how to rank sites based on their content. Other than ensuring your site is built according to W3C standards, for me SEO simply doesn't exist except in the minds of some people desperate to get in the top 10.

'Web marketing' however, does exist, but I don't think it should be called SEO with all its connotations of technical jiggery pokkery to boost rankings.

[PeteA]

It does not take much research to understand a site will perform well if

Their main keywords are in the URL
Unique on theme content is added regularly
Your site is linked to other on theme sites, preferably higher ranked sites.
Your site is listed in the Google, Yahoo, MSN and Business.com directories.
Your site is well set up with Tags, Keywords and a Site map.
Having a Google site map
Advertising your site by listing in directories, posting on forums and article writing.

All basic stuff

T

[Scott-CopyandDesign]

I have one small question about SEO. Is there any kind of service in which suitable keywords can be found for a website? Sort of like investigation into the most potentially effective keywords which could then be taken forward to SEO work on the website.

Is this part of standard SEO work from experts or is there a seperate service? Any rough price estimations?

[SteveGibson]

Is there any kind of service in which suitable keywords can be found for a website?

There's software such as Keywords Analyser or Keyword Elite which collate the overture results without too much grunt work.

KA (which I use, but KE may be better) also shows "SEO factors" for the top 10 results for each search term.

These are things like whether the search term is in the title and so on.

If this sounds like what you're looking for, it might be easier to understand what I'm saying if you find their websites and look at the videos.

(as they're quite "visual")

Steve

[Miranda]

I know of one seo person (dave at dtinternetservices .co.uk) who charges 50%, and the remaining 50% when the results have been acheived.
Which to my mind says that he's putting his skills on the line, and proving it on results. I'd certainly not pay upfront.

Having said that, I'm quite pleased with my own efforts on Google - when you search for nappies I should be no2! I tend to read whatever I can find on the topic, and I guess my continual playing about with things does help.

Miranda

[Business Angel]

My colleague Kath Dawson has just posted this list of SEO FAQ's on another site...hope you all find this useful :)

John


1. What is Search Engine Optimisation (SEO)?
Search Engine Optimisation is the process of preparing a website in order to achieve search engine rankings that drive traffic to your site. SEO is an ongoing process beginning with the initial optimisation of the site, monthly maintenance of the site, regular evaluation of search results and adjustments to the site.

2. What good is having a web site if it is not being seen?
90% of Internet buyers are turning to search engines to find the products they want. Google alone conducts over 150 million searches a day. In fact, recent studies show that purchasers are about 12 times more likely to buy your products or services after finding your site through a search engine than all other traditional advertising methods combined (including trade shows, print ads, direct mail, radio, and even television)... at a fraction of the cost! Why? Simply put, when a consumer finds you through a search engine they are ready to buy. With traditional forms of media, you are broadcasting a message hoping to reach the right consumer at the right time.

As searchers generally only explore the first two pages in the search results, achieving high rankings on the search engines will make an enormous difference in the amount of visitor traffic your site receives.

3. Why doesn't my Web site rank very well in the search engines?
Having your web site rank high in the search engines is a science and the rules for search engine optimisation (SEO) are always changing.

Here are some reasons why you may be having poor ranking:

Incorrect usage of the TITLE tag or no TITLE tag content.
Too many occurrences of the same word in a page (spamming).
Missing H1 and H2 heading tag content.
Missing ALT tag content in your graphic links.
No meaningful content in the first 250 characters on each page.
Less than 200 words per page.
Very few pages on your website.
No links from other websites to your website (link popularity).

4. How does the Search Engine find websites?
There are two ways a search engine can find a website to add to its database. The first and most direct method is to accept submissions from website designers and optimisers. Most search engines have a "submit your URL" section inviting submissions from Internet users.

The second, and least obvious method of finding websites is to send a "spider" to follow each and every link on, off, and through a website. New URLs encountered by the spider will be added to the database. In this way, some search engines will grow very rapidly.

5. How long does it take for SEO results to kick in?
The amount of time required to see results of search engine optimisation work range anywhere from 2 weeks to a few months. This is dependent on how often search engines update their index and subsequently re-rank sites. The Google Dance for example is almost a spectator sport among the SEO community.

6. What is my site ranking dependent on?
Site ranking tends to be "cumulative" and is dependent on the following factors:

The specific keyword phrases (search terms) that have been targeted
The overall competitiveness of your industry - how many players are there
Whether you are targeting a regional, national, or international market
How well ranking is monitored and the site tweaked over time for SEO improvement
The progress of your inbound linking campaign
Number of competitor sites achieving new ranking themselves.

7. Why might I need to have extra elements added to my website?
A search engine spider is an automated program that electronically probes every URL submitted to its database. As the spider is a computer program, it is designed to look for and rank very specific items on each page it probes. If those elements are present, the spider computes a higher ranking than it would if those elements were not present.

8. If these elements are so important, why didn't they get added when my site was originally designed?
Most website designers haven't learned the importance of search engine friendly design. In almost every case we've encountered, the site designer is a highly skilled and creative person whose job is to put your ideas on the web. More often than not, the designers have not received any training in search engine optimisation and don't think about it while pursuing a cool looking design.

Search engines are also constantly changing their ranking criteria. They do this to prevent gross manipulation of their search tools. Often, website designers are not fully up to date with changes at search engines.

9. Does every page of my website really need to be optimised?
In a word - yes. Every page of a website can be a potential entry point or 'landing page' for visitors. You can't predict which page or pages will be ranked the best for specific keywords. As such, each page must be individually optimised too for optimal ranking. Collectively, all pages of your website reinforce the common "theme" of the site, which also can help boost ranking. Don't assume that your home page is the only important page on your site.

10. Isn't This Something We Can Do Ourselves?
Large amounts of time, attention and expertise are needed to achieve the desired results in such a constantly changing niche industry. The expense of adding personnel and necessary resources alone would quickly outweigh the cost of hiring our company, which is why outsourcing SEO is by far the most popular method. Remember, and SEO company has already established strong, ongoing relationships with all the top search engines, and has experience professionals who are constantly researching the changes and trends in this dynamic field.

11. Can you guarantee a number #1 position in the search engines?
Nobody can guarantee a number #1 position or specific ranking for your site for a given keyword phrase in the organic search engine results. There are simply too many factors beyond anyone's control - the search engines changing their ranking algorithms, efforts made by competitors, and new sites being added to the Web.

Obtaining a specific ranking is analogous to managing a portfolio. Your financial advisor will do their best to monitor the stock market and other indicators and to make sure your portfolio is managed to the best of their abilities. However, your advisor cannot guarantee that your portfolio will be at a specific value or even that the amount will be up at all by a given date.

12. It's been several months and my website finally shows up in Google but it's ranked in the hundreds. Why is that?
It's not always easy to get better search engine rankings. In fact, search engine optimisation is part science and part art. Search engines continually change their algorithms and tweak their rules for ranking. It is possible that Google does not fully read your page due to structural issues, your website (or at least individual web pages) could be lacking in meaningful content, no significant websites link to you, your website is too small to be of any value to people searching for your topic, or any other range of problems.

Search engines may be flooded with websites on a given topic, making it more difficult to achieve higher rankings. As such, a good search engine optimiser will look for a niche to exploit. For example, consider whether your website has greater appeal to a local, national, or international region.

13. My website did not get accepted last time I submitted to the search engines... why?
Search Engine listings are not guaranteed to everyone who posts a website to the Internet. Search engines are for-profit businesses and have the right to refuse to list any site for virtually any reason. We ensure all bases are covered and all necessary elements are present before submitting the finalised site to the search engines or directories.

14. Why Should I Choose to Outsource SEO?
To achieve a high ranking web site, you have to know exactly the most effective META tag design formula, best web copywriting techniques, keep track of current search engine ranking algorithms, know what format to submit the site in to every engine and how often to resubmit the site. You also need to know whether your site is technically compatible with search engine robots, what types of pages the engines will accept and which will be barriers to ranking, plus what sort of overall "relevancy score" your site will receive from each engine you submit to.

Not only that, but once you're ranking highly, you have to monitor your progress and adjust your tags every now and then to ensure you stay up above your competitors on all engines for your major search phrases. These are all crucial steps to a high ranking, but very time consuming and not your core business!


Kath Dawson
Strategy Internet Marketing
0117 377 8237
kath@strategyconsultinglimited.co.uk


PS: Oh, this forum will not take long threads so this is Part I only, anyone interested in Part II can contact Kath or myself direct.

John

[DotNetWebs]

PS: Oh, this forum will not take long threads so this is Part I only, anyone interested in Part II can contact Kath or myself direct.

John

Hi John

Thanks for posting that. Can't you just post Part II as a separate post? I am sure many would appreciate it.

Regards

Dotty

[Business Angel]

Good suggestion....:) here is Part II.........


15. How Do You Choose the Best Keywords?
The first step in our SEO campaign is to develop your Keyword Profile. Based on your initial input, we will use a combination of experience and software programs to generate a list of the most effective and well-searched keywords in your industry. We then work together to refine this list and compile the list of keywords and phrases that will be most beneficial to your product or services. You know your business and we know ours. We know how important it is to work together to generate the most effective Keyword Profile possible.

16. Will You Need to Access Our Web Server?
Yes, we will need access to your web server in order to upload and periodically update pages. We do our best to keep you informed every time we do an upload or make a change. It is vital that anyone else who may be making changes to your site stays current with the optimised pages we provide.

17. Do You Have to Make Changes to Our Site?
While many of the changes made to your site are done behind the scenes in the source code, it may be necessary to make certain minor changes to your site's copy or layout. In most cases, these changes are minimal. We post all changes made to the front end of your site to our test server for your approval before we go live with the changes.

18. I found other services that do what you do much more cheaply: how do I choose?
Some companies take advantage of the uninitiated website owner promising top rankings for £9.95 or something similar. Beware of such promises - if it sounds too good to be true, it usually is. That £9.95 will typically buy an automated submission to 10,000 "engines" that nobody ever visits or possibly even result in a domain ban for over submitting. Once the £9.95 campaign is finished, so is your domain. There is no such thing as #1 rankings in all search engines or "it only takes 2 weeks and £9.95".

More importantly, most of these services only include submission, not optimisation, as a part of their deal. Submitting an un-optimised site to the engines simply will not improve your rankings. If you don't plan on optimising your site before submission then you shouldn't bother submitting it at all.

19. What should I look for when choosing a SEO consultant?
The ideal Consultant is one that understands the dynamics of marketing, business, and technology - and employs the highest levels of integrity in their work. There are a number of unethical practices or shortcuts that can be used in search engine optimisation, but the search engines themselves often times will not accept these questionable or "tricky" practices.

You should choose a company that doesn't promote these practices to achieve short-term results for its clients. You should also expect to benefit from the research expertise, customised approached, management expertise, and on-going consultative process from a SEO firm.

20. What's the right time for me to start a search engine marketing campaign and how long it last?
No time like the present! We usually establish 12-month campaigns. There is an enormous amount of education, research, analysis, technical programming, and testing performed in the first 3 months in particular.

21. How often will I receive search engine ranking reports?
We send out search engine ranking reports monthly to our clients.

22. How often do you resubmit my site to search engines?
If your site is search engine compatible and optimised correctly, regular resubmission to engines is generally unnecessary although we find that monthly submissions to some search engines assists in maintaining rankings. Our ranking reports and maintenance checks keep track of your site every four weeks. If your site is already ranking highly, there is no need to resubmit it. However if any engines have lowered or dropped your site altogether (as can happen from time to time), it will be resubmitted to those engines.

If an engine has dropped your rankings considerably since last report, it is time to tweak your META tags or check the optimised pages for any problems. This is included as part of your Monthly Site Ranking Management Service. Search engines will generally pick up the changes during their next edit and re-rank the site accordingly. Resubmission is usually only necessary if your site has undergone major content changes.

23. How will I know if my business increases as a result of top rankings?
There are numerous Web Analytics tools available in the market that can help you to track the effectiveness of your campaign. By the end of the first twelve months, you will get an analysis of your activity at the end of the campaign as compared to the baseline established at the beginning of the campaign.


Kath Dawson
Strategy Internet Marketing
0117 377 8237
kath@strategyconsultinglimited.co.uk



Best wishes

John

[JustOneUK]

Super double post John. Only one thing made me raise a brow....

regular resubmission to engines is generally unnecessary although we find that monthly submissions to some search engines assists in maintaining rankings.

In general there are only 3 engines that are considered worthwhile
Google, Yahoo & MSN. Neither of these 3 require you to submit your website at all (although you can if you want).

Any idea what the "some" are supposed to be?

James.

[I, Brian]

As far as I'm concerned SEO died when search engines like Google figured out how to rank sites based on their content.


This sort of ignorance on your part is all the more reason why businesses need at least a basic primer on what SEO is, does, and when it may be worth investing in.

SEO certainly hasn't dies - and Google remains primarily a links driven search engine.

Other than ensuring your site is built according to W3C standards,

Google doesn't care how your site is code or even if it validates to XHTML 1.0 - simply that there is content that can be read.

for me SEO simply doesn't exist except in the minds of some people desperate to get in the top 10.

And those people who do get in the Top 10 for commercial keywords make the sales. Hence why others want to get in there.

'Web marketing' however, does exist, but I don't think it should be called SEO with all its connotations of technical jiggery pokkery to boost rankings.

SEO is a specialist subset of internet marketing - though see my recent post at SEOmoz on how SEO's are widening their remit: The New Site Optimisation (http://www.seomoz.org/blogdetail.php?ID=1623).

It does not take much research to understand a site will perform well if

Their main keywords are in the URL
Unique on theme content is added regularly
Your site is linked to other on theme sites, preferably higher ranked sites.
Your site is listed in the Google, Yahoo, MSN and Business.com directories.
Your site is well set up with Tags, Keywords and a Site map.
Having a Google site map
Advertising your site by listing in directories, posting on forums and article writing.

All basic stuff

T

Being aware of basic SEO is one issue - getting ranked for major commercial keywords is another. :)

[Aspect Investments]

I will second that Brian.

May I add that a good SEO will be able to show you proof of his work. For example 1st page rankings on Google for popular keywords.:)

[Scott-CopyandDesign]

SEO 'dying out' has to be the dafest thing I've heard in a while. If theres physical proof that getting a SEO expert gets you higher rankings for keywords (which there is because it's their designated job and thats what they get paid for) then how could it of possibly died?

[PeteA]

How many SEO experts here are on page 1 of google for SEO related keywords?

[philsmears]

This sort of ignorance on your part is all the more reason why businesses need at least a basic primer on what SEO is, does, and when it may be worth investing in.

SEO certainly hasn't dies - and Google remains primarily a links driven search engine.


No argument provided, all you've done is used the word 'ignorance'. And ermm, how exactly does Google match up its results to search keywords?

Google doesn't care how your site is code or even if it validates to XHTML 1.0 - simply that there is content that can be read.

Compliance with web standards is a lot more than validation my friend. Complying with a number of W3C standards such as WCAG 1.0 ensures that your content is read.

[Business Angel]

How many SEO experts here are on page 1 of google for SEO related keywords?

Good question Tracy!

My colleague Kath Dawson ranks on page 1 for many SEO related phrases on Google. :D Check these out.....

"seo frequently asked questions"

"consultants ranking"

"top 10 strategy consultancies"

"seo faqs"

"internet business seminar london"

"benefit of online marketing strategy"

"seo how to get the top 10 ranking"

"marketing tools for specialist consulting services"

For more top ten rankings she has achieved for clients see http://www.strategyconsultinglimited.co.uk/seo-rankings.htm

John

[Tin]

Complying with a number of W3C standards such as WCAG 1.0 ensures that your content is read.
Correct, but 'not complying' doesn't mean that your content won't get read. In my opinion, a business website exists to make money for it's owner, either directly or in-directly and seo is one of the primary methods used to that end. High rankings do not require a site adheres to set standards but merely that the content can be determined in the first instance.

This seems to be going in circles so I'm out for now.

[PeteA]

John those keywords seem a little distant from ....SEO Consultation, SEO expert etc etc

It would be interesting to see what positioning the experts here hold for the main SEO keywords.

[Tin]

It would be interesting to see what positioning the experts here hold for the main SEO keywords.
And the point of doing that is precisely... what?

[Aspect Investments]

I agree Tracy.

Come on SEO experts lets see what you got.:)

[Business Angel]

I agree Tracy.

Come on SEO experts lets see what you got.:)

How these 1st page rankings that my colleague Kath Dawson from Strategy Internet Marketing has achieved on Google in addition to the ones on the previous posting....

SEO Client top 10 search engine rankings
http://www.strategyconsultinglimited.co.uk/seo-rankings.htm

SEO specialist services
http://www.strategyconsultinglimited.co.uk/seo-specialists.htm

Pay Per Click Services UK
http://www.strategyconsultinglimited.co.uk/pay-per-click-services-uk.html

PPC Or SEO
http://www.strategyconsultinglimited.co.uk/ppc-or-seo.html


John

[philsmears]

Correct, but 'not complying' doesn't mean that your content won't get read.
Not complying means your content may not get read. Why take the chance?

[Aspect Investments]

How these 1st page rankings that my colleague Kath Dawson from Strategy Internet Marketing has achieved on Google in addition to the ones on the previous posting....

SEO Client top 10 search engine rankings
http://www.strategyconsultinglimited.co.uk/seo-rankings.htm

SEO specialist services
http://www.strategyconsultinglimited.co.uk/seo-specialists.htm

Pay Per Click Services UK
http://www.strategyconsultinglimited.co.uk/pay-per-click-services-uk.html

PPC Or SEO
http://www.strategyconsultinglimited.co.uk/ppc-or-seo.html


John

Thanks for that John.

The search terms are not that competitive, but at least she is prepared to show her work, so people can see what they can expect for their money.

[PeteA]

Good post John

I am not sure anyone will accept the challenge, if not it would seem the only person worthy of a recommendation for SEO work would be Kath

[I, Brian]

Business Angel, is it possible for you to make a post without including self-promotional links?

I've set up this as a resource for people to learn about SEO - there's not a single link to any of my own SEO resources or my own SEO company in this thread.

It would be nice if you could respect the thread intention, instead of trying to force the issue for promotion.

It's also great that you've helped clients achieve visibility, but those just aren't competitive keywords.

Certainly not compared to what I know some of the SEO's on UKBF routinely work with. I didn't use the earlier example of "mortgage brokers" flippantly.

How many SEO experts here are on page 1 of google for SEO related keywords?

I used to rank No.1 for "Internet Marketing" on Google, as the conversions were better than SEO-related keywords. Since then I'm happy to be search engine friendly rather than ranking, as these days I work via referrals.

Bottom line is - I'm too busy ranking clients to care about ranking my own site - especially as it's no longer intended for client acquisition, but reference.

And ermm, how exactly does Google match up its results to search keywords?

A whole range of factors - Google frequently cites "over 100 factors". Bottom line is that content alone rarely ranks for competitive keywords, unless from a very authoritative website.

Compliance with web standards is a lot more than validation my friend. Complying with a number of W3C standards such as WCAG 1.0 ensures that your content is read.

Maybe, but as before, it has nothing to do with how search engines rank the content.

[LindasAvonTeam]

[Business Angel, is it possible for you to make a post without including self-promotional links?]

To be fair, John was only responding to someone else's request, but otherwise I agree - let's keep this thread to the point, as it was originally intended. It's full of useful info. Thanks to everyone who has submitted relevant information, as it's very helpful (especially to someone like me who has had a dreadful experience through using the wrong SEO company, and my own ignorance (*see my new thread).

[PeteA]

An easy question is.

Has anyone here had any optimization work done by anyone here. If so how well have they faired over the long term.

[Mark-UK]

Some good free tools here.

webconfs.com

[Miranda]

How many SEO experts here are on page 1 of google for SEO related keywords?

Well I'd hardly call myself an expert, but I am No 2 on page 1 for 'nappies'! When I get sales reps phone me up wanting to sell me seo services I ask them which search term they'd suggest I use to find their site and if I give them one for my site if their site ranks higher than mine for our respective keyword sthen I may be interested. Never had any takers.

I do regularly read up on the topic and make a few tweaks every now and then though.

[Tin]

It would be interesting to see what positioning the experts here hold for the main SEO keywords.
Seeing that the original purpose of Brians thread was one of Self Help and not of self promotion, it makes no sense to divert the thread off-topic as this doesn't benefit anyone. I would however, state that 'every' client who comes to me for a site design which incorporates seo is given access to more than sufficient ranking reports across numerous market sectors and engines to help them make an informed decision. Telephone numbers of existing clients can easily be made available to new clients should they wish to check my business integrity for themselves.

Moving on a bit I'd like to shed some light on this whole area of rankings/results/competition if I may as I think it might help some people understand better what mechanisms are at work and how you can't simply judge the 'competitiveness' of a keyword by the total results shown for example at the top right of Google (1-10 of so many million)

Enter a simple 2/3 word phrase into Google and it'll flush up pages that it feels relevant to the search query because these words are present on those pages, most relevant pages are delivered first, less relevant follow. We've all witnessed it, type anything into a search engine and after a dozen or so results pages the relevancy of the results have 'gone off the boil' which is a common reason why users retype or refine their search query. Ok, an example:

query on Google.com:
business services uk results 1-10 of 47,400,000 now any site appearing on page 1 from that huge number of results is bound to impress, yes?
But, and it's a big but.... those pages are not competition in the 'true sense', those pages are a huge collection of pages that Google throws at your feet hoping to satisfy your search query and the reason Google shows so many is because it first shows pages that contain those words in the most relevant order (to the search query), where, these words are located on a page and other associated factors which affect ranking positions. So, the first results are derived from an exact match perspective, that is if the words appear on a page in exactly the same order you typed them in. It'll also look for instances where 2 words are together but with the 3rd word appearing somewhere closeby, in that same sentence, paragraph, but certainly must be present on the page.

Then, what I term 'noise pages' kick in. Noise pages are simply pages that fit the criteria of the search query but in a far more loose manner, typically our 3 words can appear absolutely anywhere on a page but such pages tend to hold very little intrinsic value relevant to our query of business services uk. Noise pages typically show words which have less and less 'connection with each other' for that given 3 word phrase so much so that the page content appears completely off topic from the original purpose of the search. It's worth pointing out that at this juncture in the results it's very likely that what are deemed noise pages from one search query are in fact pages whose content has been seo'd for other keywords and on different topics so in effect, a form of natural content crossing occurs. Hope that makes sense.

Some sample noise pages could typically look like....

UK Alarm Services for your business...
Specialist catering services based in Luton Airport in the UK, business lunches our speciality...
Mind Your Own Business. Software and accountancy services - UK company

Page volumes are generally not the most accurate guide to how competitive a keyword or keyphrase is in isolation and even after noise pages have been excluded from the number of results, pages will still exist that have little relevance to the original search query.

One simple guide towards determining competition is to use some Google operators and one in particular is a single opening speech mark "

By using the speech mark at the very beginning of your search query, example; "business services uk you'll notice that about 99.999999999% of pages previously showing (47 million) have disappeared and instead we have around 10 thousand pages left. The reason for this is that by using the Operator we've simply 'forced' Google to deliver 'ONLY' pages which contain those 3 words. The words must appear in that exact order, one after the other and without being split apart by other words. All those previous pages that had 3 word combinations in them are not factored into this new equation, hence a much reduced number of pages, but pages which should be far more topical and relevant. So, a 3 word phrase that initially appears to be massively competitive boils down to one of considerably less competition with a little foresight.

There are a number of other Operators that Google provides but I'll save them for another time.

A little bit more about competition or more precisely, 'True competition'. It would be wrong to assume by using the Speech Operator to force results down to a more focussed number that the competition is almost non existent, it isn't. There's only 10 slots on page 1 of an engine and I've worked on client sites where my initial analysis suggested the client keywords were easy prey only to find that the first 30 results obviously had access to a shedload of money for seo. One client comes to mind, his main objective was #1 on page 1 for a single word, (goose that lays the golden egg was how he put it's importance to me) and it took me months to get him there despite his competion being tiny but he remained there for almost 4 years without any changes to the site. Number of page results at that time were...
Using the Speech Operator - 4,800 pages (5 years ago but more now)
Not using the Operator - 27,000 ish! I know this seems 'tiny competition' but those top 30 sites would have been spending a fortune on seo. It's not too often that a small number of companies target one particular word with such vigour!

In my experience I find that most clients are not in heavy competition markets, a few are but it's really inaccurate to simply assume competitiveness of two/three word phrases by looking at the result volume.

Single word seo is different as you can't get much meaningful info by using the Google Operator as it simply has no effect. Other methods can be used which I'll try to find time for to toss up here!

Hope that provides some insight.

Ray

[PeteA]

Very interesting post Ray.

[I, Brian]

Good post, Ray - it definitely needed pointing out that the number of results offered for a search does not directly equate to competitiveness. :)

As for Miranda's comment - this is something I actually wanted to pick up on earlier when budgets were mentioned.

Google has moved more towards scoring by "authority", and as a general rule, the longer Google has known about a website, the easier it is to rank. A clean website that has been around and indexed since 1996 is usually far easier to rank than one from 2006.

This is where established sites can really start to leverage their content, even in more competitive areas, and people such as Miranda can aggressively try to ringfence their market.

So ranking for really competitive keywords is not simply a matter of budget - it's a question of how much work would be required to achieve the results. And this is going to differ not simply according to the keywords, but also according to the website, with older websites potentially offering faster and more dramatic results Google.

2c.

[Aspect Investments]

Older sites definately have an advantage over new ones.

Having said that im currently working on a site that has been live for just over a month, and I already have page one on Google Yahoo and MSN for quite competitive search terms.

[SteveGibson]

query on Google.com:
business services uk results 1-10 of 47,400,000 now any site appearing on page 1 from that huge number of results is bound to impress, yes?
But, and it's a big but.... those pages are not competition in the 'true sense', those

Looking at this search, I get Warwick Uni at #10 of the results.

That should be a strong indication that the term isn't really competitive as there's no way that the Warwick University site is being optimised for business services or is particularly relevant for the search term.

It a bit like the term : contact page

There are 4.35 billion results on google, but it shouldn't be that difficult for someone with half-decent on-page SEO skills to get to p1.

Steve

[PeteA]

I just looked and on google.com at the phrase business services uk. The site businessservicesuk.com is on the first page of 380,000,000 pages. Obviously it is better to be on page 1 than page 100.

The Warwick university site is very interesting, they have a PR of 8, seems very high.

[Aspect Investments]

I think your URL has a lot to do with that Tracy. You should be number one really. :)

[I, Brian]

Phil Craven wrote a nice article about what makes a keyword competitive:
http://www.webworkshop.net/blog/?p=10

That should help further clarify Tin's earlier comments.

[sandpetra]

SEO can be a very time consuming experience - that is what you end up paying for (if you have picked a reputable, innovative company). Especially if you're trying to get anywhere with loans, mortages holidays etc - ie competitive keywords.

There's no magic bullet, there's no guarantees (beware any seo who makes guarantees), all you can judge a company is by previous results.

Check out their own site. Do they rank high in Google for specific keyterms? Do they have a decent Google Page Rank? Any testimonials on the site you can check with a phone call? Will they give you some free advice you can try out yourself?

My advice for beginners is set up a blog on your site. Have a real think about the customers youre targetting. Write an artical about 500-750 words a week. This can be your news blog. BLOGS ARE FREE TO INSTALL, and only need about 4 hours to customise for your site "design".

But what to write on your blog (a blog is just a journal, a collection of stories etc)? Do a bit of research on keywords. Things people are typing into google about your product or biz.

You need to aim for what is called the long tail of keyword search returns.

For instance, if you have a flower shop write about keeping flowers good for a week. Make sure you've got things like "the experts recommend to keep flowers fresh by using ...blah blah...this will let quality flower arrangements....blah blah..stay fresh for blah blah..keep your quality boquets looking good for weeks....regardless wether it was a cheap flower display ...blah blah...or expensive, luxury flower display,...blah blah specialist of roses, dafodials, tulips etc....blah.... delivered by the local flower shop in "insert geographic location" etc etc. ie keyword rich.

Make sure it reads like proper english and above all make it origional and useful! Once or twice in your copy put "flower shop" or "local flower shop in "insert geographic location"" in a lik to your company info page. Google loves this sort of thing.

Once you've done this why not change the artical, give it a different slant and promote it using ezine articles - basically you dont want to trip duplicate filters in Google so change that artical! The only difference when writing an article in a post or for publishing on another site (rather than on your own) is getting your keywords in the link, so if I were a search engine optimiser I would want that in a link ;) - you see Google adds up all the links pointing to your site AND takes note which words where used to form that link and then scores you against some other factors to determine where you appear.

Keep doing this every week or so. Make your site a resource about flowers and you will reap the benefits. It is that simple.

Join some forums about flowers or gardening etc - leave links back to your site - especially on-topic articles on your site. You'll get a few visits and google will follow the link and read your page. See if you can get some links from "authority sites" on the subject of flowers.

GEO Target! If you are a flower shop in glasgow, have "Flowers Shop, Glasgow, Scotland, UK in your title tag for your home page (maximum 8-12 keywords) and in your meta description (maximum 24 words) - forget about mata-keywords - they are useless. It's much easier to rank for "flower shop glasgow" than "flower shop".

And remember people might be searching for flower types - the top converting traffic is people who dont use one or two keywords - "looking for rose specialist in Glasgow" and your site pops up first could well be a sale!

There's many other things you can do!

DO NOT LISTEN TO SEOS who say you need to be submitted to 100s of search engines - this is utter nonsense! It is best to let Google / yahoo/ msn find your site! Do this by getting a free link in a directory website who is actually in Google, the rest is automatic after a couple of weeks. The good thing about a blog is that it is automatically syndicated to blogs worldwide if you set it up right and do a bit of research!

If you do employ an seo you should begin to see results of some kind within 3 months.

Shaun

Happy SEO'ING! :p

[PeteA]

Well done Shaun the best post so far, it backs up my own thoughts I especially agree with this sentence


Check out their own site. Do they rank high in Google for specific keyterms? Do they have a decent Google Page Rank? Any testimonials on the site you can check with a phone call? Will they give you some free advice you can try out yourself?




I am suspicious of an SEO expert who states they are no longer interested in the placement of their own site.

T

[Rob Holmes]

I just looked and on google.com at the phrase business services uk. The site businessservicesuk.com is on the first page of 380,000,000 pages. Obviously it is better to be on page 1 than page 100.

The Warwick university site is very interesting, they have a PR of 8, seems very high.
Tracey,

My figures show that 'business services UK' is hardly ever searched for. Have you thought of optimising for 'business services' - unfortunately you're nowhere to be seen for that on google at the moment but our own mod alpha http://www.alphalimited.co.uk is on page 3

Rob

[sandpetra]

" The benefit of good SEO is when its done right it slashes your advertising and marketing costs by 90%."

This is simply not true, I am afraid. Anyone thinking of packing in the rest of advertising and getting on the organic, natural or free advertising gravy boat needs to take a trip right back to reality.

This is the myth of seo. Seo done right is advertising you pay for - at some point. Sure, if youre lucky, it can be the best ad budget you ever spend, but lets not forget seo is just part of the mix - a complement to other channels you already swim in - a means by which to reduce the "50% of the advertising that does not work".

" I would like to add that SEO should be considered like any other form of marketing" - I agree Yorganic.

Some clients think they can get to number 1 in google and stay there (very difficult, even if you can get there) - others think an seo is the answer to all their problems.

It's part of the strategy, not 90% of it!

I have gotten to the top for very competitive two keyword terms and guess what - zero traffic - nada - none. Let me tell you, that confused the office!

Think long tail, think long tail......

[PeteA]

Rob it has been optimised for business services in fact this is our main keyword, it will just take time as the site has gone through a name change recently.

[Rob Holmes]

Nice one :)

R

[sandpetra]

Tracy - hope you've 301'd:eek: your old domain name to your new one if you've changed it.

[natureday]

You shoudl just do it all yourself. Find out what you have to do and then spend 1 hour a day for a year doing it and you will be at the top.

[sandpetra]

Natureday - if only it was that simple we'd all be top:) I'm an seo and sometimes I find it hard to spend an hour a day optimising my own site!

Welcome to the forum!

[I, Brian]

I am suspicious of an SEO expert who states they are no longer interested in the placement of their own site.


I disagree on that point - but I really agree it's advised to be suspicious in general anyway regarding SEO services. :)

[I, Brian]

" The benefit of good SEO is when its done right it slashes your advertising and marketing costs by 90%."

This is simply not true, I am afraid. Anyone thinking of packing in the rest of advertising and getting on the organic, natural or free advertising gravy boat needs to take a trip right back to reality.


Absolutely agreed - the benefit of SEO is the Cost Per Acquisition (CPA) is traditionally much lower than PPC, email marketing, and telesales.

However, SEO is *one* marketing tactic - it shouldn't preclude all others for a serious business, merely compliment them, IMO.


Think long tail, think long tail......

Long tail is such a great resource.

I took on a client with a literally brand new website selling electronics. There was absolutely no way I'd get him ranked for really competitive keywords at first, so we took it in stages - target Longtail first, then branch out.

After a couple of months he swtiched the PPC off and went on holiday for 2 weeks. When he came back there was £8k in orders for him just from the Longtail SEO.

A year later, he's ranking for really competitive single keywords.

Point is, SEO isn't about doing something once, then forgetting it - it's a strategy, but the rules of the game are constantly changing. A SEO is supposed to know the way the rules are played at any one moment and leverage that for the client.

2c, and welcome to UKBF, sandpetra. :)

[DotNetWebs]

Tracy - hope you've 301'd:eek: your old domain name to your new one if you've changed it.

Talking of 301ing. I have often read that if you own a .com and a .co.uk should 301 the secondary domain to you primary domain.

I have tried this with some of my sites but not with others. I am still not convinced this is necessary but am open to persuasion.

Have a look at this:

Google Horsham Forum (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=horsham+forum&meta=)

If I 301 the .co.uk to the .com will I not then loose the second listing?

On MSN I could loose even more listings as I have practicably the whole front page:

MSN Horsham Forum (http://search.msn.co.uk/results.aspx?q=horsham+forum&FORM=MSNH&mkt=en-gb)

Any thoughts?

Regards

Dotty

[natureday]

Lat year I spent one hour a day on my weight loss site.
ANd guess what????
It took 10 month exactly and I was number 5 on yahoo and google for the key words "weight loss"
I was so determined that I would do it and it was not that hard.

[Aspect Investments]

Well done. Competitive keywords those.

What position are you now?

[DotNetWebs]

Lat year I spent one hour a day on my weight loss site.
ANd guess what????
It took 10 month exactly and I was number 5 on yahoo and google for the key words "weight loss"
I was so determined that I would do it and it was not that hard.

Nature

How does a ‘magic pill’ that makes your breasts grow help people loose weight?

Also I see you are based in the USA what is your interest in UK business?

Regards

Dotty

[sandpetra]

Regarding breasts? I wonder if those work on guys - I wouldnt mind a pair of my own....

Does anyone actually buy those things, I wonder?

[sandpetra]

Natureday - as this is a self help thread why not join us in letting people in on what you actually did to get into Google etc and ranked well. For instance are you white hat (http://www.internetmarketing101.org.uk/tips/5.htm) or black hat (http://www.internetmarketing101.org.uk/tips/6.htm)?

It would be more useful than "spend an hour". If I spend an hour in bed thinking about number 1 in Google sometimes i can achieve it....until the next morning.

[natureday]

Our product works amazingly well! We have alomost a thousand testimonials from males and females.
There is another site that we have that sells weight loss and I think we are still top 20- at least on yahoo.
I don't want to give that url out cause it will look like I am spamming:)
Anna

[sandpetra]

hmmmm....really?

I wonder if I can find it?:)

[natureday]

Actually thought plays a huge part in it- so yes spend an hour a day in bed and your thoughts will manifest what you want into reality.
My methods are very much white hat.
I just used to spread my url around in sites that wanted urls or huge high page rank sites like
hi5 com
help com
myspace com
zaadz com
pbase com
alexa com
Sites like those.
And then here is a huge list of sites that you can submit your site to:
turn key
webpros
com/directories-list.html

I can't give yo uthe full url cause this site won;'t let me.






It would be more useful than "spend an hour". If I spend an hour in bed thinking about number 1 in Google sometimes i can achieve it....until the next morning.

[sandpetra]

reallythin.something perhaps? Do you clean teeth too?;)

[SteveGibson]

Anyone thinking of packing in the rest of advertising and getting on the organic, natural or free advertising gravy boat needs to take a trip right back to reality.

Why?

What would be "unreal" about being #1 for a very highly searched term and enjoying the money from that free traffic?

Steve

[sandpetra]

Why?

What would be "unreal" about being #1 for a very highly searched term and enjoying the money from that free traffic?

Steve

Hi Steve. "free traffic" thru being number 1 is great - but how many people sit atop google for a money keyterm without expense in either time or money? - ergo - the traffic is not free.:)

[PeteA]

Brian your forum looks very good, haven't managed to register yet but I will

[PeteA]

Also if an SEO expert cannot maintain their own site on the first page of Google how would they do with someone elses site over the long term.

It may be one thing to get a high placement but keeping it, this is another matter.

[I, Brian]

Also if an SEO expert cannot maintain their own site on the first page of Google how would they do with someone elses site over the long term.

A point to remember is that a website can be great for client acquisition - but a SEO can only work with a limited set of clients.

And these clients can keep you so busy that you simply don't have either the time - or the need - to push your site rankings for client acquisition.

On saying that, some companies do - SEO companies with aggressive sales forces are interested only in client acquisition, rather than actually delivering proper SEO services. Read this on how a recent SEO fell down - all sales, no services, despite once having some of the leading lights in the industry on their payroll: http://www.evankroberts.com/2007/01/why-i-believe-websourced-marketsmart.html

Bottom line is that a good company needs to look after it's clients - and sometimes that means putting self-promotion of your own company into a second place to preserve client interests.

However, on saying that, there are of course SEO companies that have no presence precisely because they don't have the resources.

As before, be suspicious and cautious, and don't fall for easy promises.

[sandpetra]

The constant battle to stay top of google on any search term for client or own company is a challenge to every seo.

Speaking from personal experience I prefer to work with clients for long periods, and i still work for retail and loans clients and colleges(which we won an award for last year!) 6 and 3 years later respectively. Of course, we need to bend over backwards for clients - which involves a lot of sleepless nights! (If your seo guy is not a bleary eyed, ipod loving, irn-bru addicted seo obsessive with a short attention span and distinct disregard for fashion then you're talking to the wrong guy in the agency!)

As a small organisation I do not accept the fact that larger seo companies do not have the time to continue bolster their own seo positions while adressing client needs. After all dont they have the resources? The best minds in the business? A good seo is obsessed. It takes time to get to the top of google - and no-one just stops an obsession like that - throws away sometimes years of work for no reason.

I think the fact that some seo companies lose position to more obsessive start ups and SMEs can be because up to date research is not filtering through the organisation. When we find something works for a client, we immediately address our own site, and likewise.

Sometimes when someone critical leaves an organisation, positions can falter too. At the end of the day you cant really be taught seo - you have got to experience it. Over time. There's no substitute for testing and failing pr testing and succeeding.

What are you paying your seo? I can tell you honestly no one company could pay for all the hours (largely research) that we put into seo - our obsession. We get round this by carrying out the research on our own site or partner sites - so improving our position in Google and in turn getting new business through Google, and learning something new to deploy on clients sites.

We are just a young company (although I have worked for the clients in other organisations since 2000).

An seo who says he doesnt want to be top of google (or on the first page)? I cant believe it!

Phew! I hope you get the jist but I'm off to a meeting now! Got a client to keep happy!:)

[PeteA]

However, on saying that, there are of course SEO companies that have no presence precisely because they don't have the resources.


Or worse they don't know how to achieve it.

[I, Brian]

Absolutely right. :)

But it's worth remembering that the organic results don't show a natural set of recommendations, but as much who is most aggressively seeking ranking for SEO keywords.

I can only think of two out all the high profile SEO's in the industry who actually rank for SEO keywords. Much is done simply by referrals and word of mouth.

I also know some companies rank for the keywords because they place advertising links on their client sites for themselves. IMO this is simply not good business practice, to try and stand on clients for self-promotional purposes.

2c.

[PeteA]

Brian,

Do you think that setting up a website with its own mechanism for adding regular on theme unique content and one for adding external links is something most site owners should consider?

[I, Brian]

I think there are certainly instances where it could be recommended, for example:

1. Articles/Reference

Articles or similar that will help provide further information - not simply around the products/services being sold, but also to funnel potential buyers towards your own offerings.

2. News

Providing news and latest information on the industry can bring in significant traffic, and with the right positioning, even make you a focus of the industry itself.

3. Blog

A constantly updated blog can be a magnet for conversation that draws attention to a company, or else simply be used for Public Relations purposes.

4. Community/forums

A community - such as a forum - where you can not simply offer customer support, but also encourage Permission Marketing of the member base, and also add the branding factor for casual traffic who find the site in searches.


However, all of the above will likely require a significant investment of time and money to build up to any great significance. Sometimes they may suit a client's needs, but sometimes it may seem a distraction from the core selling process. It really depends on exactly what the individual goals are - and in terms of specifics rather than generics.

Hope that helps.

[PeteA]

Having another opinion cetainly helps, thanks.

We have an article and resource section on our site, I view them as essential, for self SEO purposes.

My other question is....

If a person uses posting on a forum as a means to build up links, is it worthwhile? And if yes, does the popularity of the site matter. For example the difference between leaving a link here or on www.highrankings.com (http://www.highrankings.com)

T

[sandpetra]

If its a useful link put it in - simple as that. Otherwise dont. Remember Google loves links - although it is thought forum signatures are devalued compared to links in text.

Some forums and blogs tell Google to ignore all the links (secretly in code) - think of your forum time as ways to get people on your site, and you'll be ok.

Dont spam with links with nothing to say (I see you clearly dont do that).:)

[I, Brian]

Signatures used to have real value, but over the past couple of years Google has implemented various changes that have significantly devalued them.

Personally, I wouldn't consider them a serious part of a link development campaign, because there are far more effective methods out there.

If you get something from signature links, it's a bonus.

2c.

[DotNetWebs]

Signatures used to have real value, but over the past couple of years Google has implemented various changes that have significantly devalued them.

Personally, I wouldn't consider them a serious part of a link development campaign, because there are far more effective methods out there.

If you get something from signature links, it's a bonus.

2c.

I am not sure about that have a look at this:

Google Bose Horsham (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=bose+horsham&btnG=Google+Search&meta=cr%3DcountryUK%7CcountryGB)

I only put it in my signature a couple of weeks ago to try and promote the recent Bose entry on the Visit Horsham Site. This entry now ranks no.1 over the TBO entry who have a much bigger SEO budget (including a full time SEO who is a member of this site). The 3rd entry (excluding the additional results) is a recent UKBF entry containing BOSE in my signature.

Further down the results page are several relevant sites that should by rights rank far higher than a forum signature.

Brian do you have any thoughts about my 301 query I made earlier in this thread?

Regards

Dotty

[Tin]

I'd agree with Brian's point here. Forum link spamming (i've added the word 'spamming' in there as that's what most clueless seo's only seem able to do) has been around since the invention of the seo wheel.
Join a forum.
Add as many links in your sig as you can get away with.
Resurrect 'Graveyard threads' and add one liners just to get your links in.
Jump into current posts add really short contributions, just to get your links in.
Move to other forums and repeat the process.

In short, when I see this method being deployed clearly for the intention of link building it really tells me how little that person knows about seo in general.

Are these people even aware how to check if a forum is allowing links to be followed?

[DotNetWebs]

So Tin are you saying I am a clueless spammer who knows little about SEO?

In addition to designing, coding and marketing this site I have been getting some great local results which have directly contributed to further sign ups.

As much as I respect SEO's like yourself I currently have higher priority things to spend my money on and am quite pleased with the results that I am getting.

[Tin]

:( Sorry Dotty, took me so long to type my post (phone kept ringing) that you had got in before me. I was simply agreeing with 'I, Brian'.

My point was there is so much more to seo and people should be aware that links from forums are much devalued these days.

Ray

[DotNetWebs]

I am not saying I disbelieve you but did you look at my example?

How do you explain that a (very recent) post about a Buffalo hard drive is ranked over a post about AV equipment in Horsham containing information about Bose at Horsham.

Or above a post titled Bose at Horsham with a hyphenated url containing the title and a full listing about the business in question?

Regards

Dotty

ps how long before this appears over the buffalo thread ;)

[PeteA]

My own opinion on things like this is

Linking to forums, directories, keywords, url with keywords, the use of hyphens, tags, search engine submissions, link building, anchor text etc etc

Should all be viewed as slices of a cake, some slices are more important and will be thicker, some not so important, they are the thin slices. However to have the whole cake you need all the pieces.

Maybe I am wrong, these are just my own thoughts.

[Tin]

:( Sorry Dotty, took me so long to type my post (phone kept ringing) that you had got in before me. I was simply agreeing with 'I, Brian'. As I said I was replying to the post above yours and no, I had not had a look at your example.

It appears that there is a genuine misunderstanding here and we are talking at cross purposes. All I would say is that Google is scratching to find many pages that are about Bose Horsham and it's having to factor in pages that are very weakly connected to the keywords, that's why it's pulling in one of UKBF's threads. It's an extremely easy serp to get to the top of Google but no-one seems to have gone for it. A little seo on the right page will get it there without sig links.

Aplogies but I'm snowed under with work and probably won't have a chance to reply again on this same issue, hope we see each other more clearly now.

Ray http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif

[DotNetWebs]

Sorry Tin I missed the point that your reply was to the post before mine. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

With regards to this thread in general:

I think for businesses with a least a basic knowledge of SEO (which lets face it every web designer/developer should have) the decision to outsource the SEO work will largely depend on the competitiveness of the market place that they are going for.

If I was launching an national online mortgage company then I would need to employ or out source a full time SEO to have any chance of succeeding.

As I am now working almost exclusively in the local internet market it is (currently) less competitive and on a page by page basis less significant to the business as a whole. If a few forums posts or links can help the process then it is worth trying.

The most important thing to remember is that SEO is only part of a successful web business. How big a part depends on the type of business you are doing. If the business does not warrant it there is absolutely no point in spending all you money on SEO when it could be bring greater returns to your business by spending it elsewhere.

Regards

Dotty

[I, Brian]

I am not sure about that have a look at this:
Google Bose Horsham (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=bose+horsham&btnG=Google+Search&meta=cr%3DcountryUK%7CcountryGB)


The point I'm making is that a couple of years ago you could probably "own" the single keywords "Bose" and "Horsham" and a PR5 or 6 to boot, on your signature links alone.

Now they've been much more devalued.

I think it's great you've got a ranking with signature links - but for anything really competitive, I wouldn't put much stock in their individual impact.


Brian do you have any thoughts about my 301 query I made earlier in this thread?


Sorry, Dotty - I'm afraid I missed that - could you repeat the question, please?

[I, Brian]

My own opinion on things like this is

Linking to forums, directories, keywords, url with keywords, the use of hyphens, tags, search engine submissions, link building, anchor text etc etc

Should all be viewed as slices of a cake, some slices are more important and will be thicker, some not so important, they are the thin slices. However to have the whole cake you need all the pieces.

Absolutely agreed - you're basically talking about a multi-tiered strategy which I think is key to rankings.

If the cake is the ranking objective, then there are different link methods that will provide enough "slice" to achieve that. You don't need all the different slices - sometimes one will do it - but using different slices can make for a more stable ranking.

2c.

[DotNetWebs]

Sorry, Dotty - I'm afraid I missed that - could you repeat the question, please?

Hi Brian this is a cut and paste from a question I posed earlier in this thread. It seemed to have got missed when we started talking about breast enhancing pills :eek:

Talking of 301ing. I have often read that if you own a .com and a .co.uk should 301 the secondary domain to you primary domain.

I have tried this with some of my sites but not with others. I am still not convinced this is necessary but am open to persuasion.

Have a look at this:

Google Horsham Forum (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=horsham+forum&meta=)

If I 301 the .co.uk to the .com will I not then loose the second listing?

On MSN I could loose even more listings as I have practicably the whole front page:

MSN Horsham Forum (http://search.msn.co.uk/results.aspx?q=horsham+forum&FORM=MSNH&mkt=en-gb)

Any thoughts?

Regards

Dotty

[sandpetra]

Sorry Dot

I meant to reply to this.

Yes you probably will lose one at some point - wether you 301 or not. The problem is that google is treating these domains at the moment as two different sites. You can see you have no Google PR for the .co.uk domain - I would redirect this to the .com.

The thing is Google will probably dump one anyway at some point becuse the content is the same.

At the moment, you leave yourself open to duplicate content filters. I'd just point the .co.uk to the .com in your domain name control package rather than 301.

[DotNetWebs]

......At the moment, you leave yourself open to duplicate content filters. I'd just point the .co.uk to the .com in your domain name control package rather than 301.

Thanks for the reply Shaun.

Although I have no Page Rank for the .co.uk I quite like the fact that I have the two top listing on Google and most of the 1st page on MSN. I run this site on a dedicated server so I have full control over the domains and the DNS. At the moment I have four domains tied to a single IIS website. (I also have southwaterforum.com and southwaterforum.co.uk).

If duplicate filters kick in am I right in assuming it will probably dump the .co.uk and leave the .com (as this has page rank and is the one that is most linked too). If this is the case I would rather let nature take its course and maintain the current advantage I have with two listings. If I redirect the .co.uk I will automatically lose the second listing anyway won't I?

I am just trying to weigh up the pros and cons for 4 domains vs single domain etc.

Regards

Dotty

[I, Brian]

Why not simply add separate content to one of the sites, with links going through to the other?

That way you can maintain both listings, and also provide some link benefit to the other?

If you go that route, for the changed site, it would be helpful to have a few unique pages on it.

2c.

[DotNetWebs]

Why not simply add separate content to one of the sites, with links going through to the other?.........

Thanks for that.

I have been thinking about this but as the site in question is a forum all of the content is database driven and common across each domain. I do already have separate skins available and I suppose I could maintain two different versions, each with a unique skin, but I would imagine that the site would still be seen as ‘duplicate content’.

I am not really bothered about it at the moment as this is not exactly a competitive site. It was more a hypothetical question in case I do find myself involved with a site in a similar situation but with more at stake.

Regards

Dotty

[I, Brian]

No, I don't mean simply reskin the site - simply have one as the forum, and the other as having a handful of pages, perhaps based on forum highlights.

That way you keep two unique sites plus potential link benefits from the one that links to the forum.

You can see I have a links bias. :)

[DotNetWebs]

Thanks Brian

I see where you are coming from. As I said at the moment I have no need to try and boost the site's ranking. Should I ever have the need to I will give this some consideration.

Regards

Dotty

[sirearl]

Having just found this thread I spent an hour or so reading it.

lot of good info,lot of poor info,lot of going round in circles.

one thing I will comment on which seems to be of concern is.

how do you tell a good SEO,well the average guy can't.

But my guidlines would not be for the company who gets No 1 on google for "SEO" that only shows they can get there own company up there for SEO !

It would be for the guy who has top ranking across a broad and competative range of products and industries.

And I mean broad and lots of em.

I am still smiling ;)


Earl

[abeer42]

HI

You are correct, there are some good information about seo and some really bed info. but i think someof the info is really useful to me.