Can a bad company stay in business?

[mercurywebdesign]

Hi,

I've just found this forum and wanted to ask a question for the many web designers (aswell as other business owners) there are here. I'm in the process of restructuring things in my business which I've been running for seven years now. I have found a growing number of projects for redesigns from customers disatisifed with their original designs/service from other companies.

Take one example, a customer paid just short of 2k for a standard 5 page website with poorly scanned pictures, terrible design, spelling typos, a domain name they don't technically own...basically a site they were embarrassed to even advertise. They've said to me that companies like this don't stay in business long - but in truth whats to stop them carrying on?

[franglo]

The problem is that there are a lot of people out there who know everything about their own business, but nothing about computers. Let's make up a scenario involving one of these people. We'll call him X.

A cowboy called Y comes along and tries to sell a web site to X. Not knowing much about computers, X doesn't understand most of what Y is trying to sell, but realises that the internet is a big thing these days. Y supplies a quote, and X accepts, on the basis that you get what you pay for, and Y's quote is quite high.

Y builds X a rubbish site and scarpers. X is quite happy until someone shows him a competitor's site and X realises he's been had.

There needs to be some sort of code of practice that web designers can sign up for. Something like UKWDA, but something that actually works. I have seen a lot of rubbish web design companies on their site and tons of broken links. I doubt anyone actually maintains the member list...

There could be a list of rules to be allowed to sign up to this code - e.g. "If you think red and green are a really nice combination and never use alt tags, you will NOT be allowed to join, but we will send over some visually impaired people to beat you up with sticks." ;) And a human would regularly check member sites to ensure they hadn't gone downhill or folded! Ahhh, it's a nice dream. :) Unfortunately, you would need an independent body to run this, and the only people who care about this sort of thing, are already in the business and not impartial.

I don't see why lousy companies would go out of business - there's always someone willing to pay them. Give it 10 years or so, wait until everyone has become comfortable with the internet, and there will be less opportunities to exploit people, as they'll know how to recognise rubbish. ;)

[mercurywebdesign]

What you've is pretty much what i was thinking. There does need to be a government-backed 'watchdog' scheme for our industry.

[qska]

Well - I don't agree that these companies will take so long to collapse.

After all, in this industry, most of new business comes from referrals, and if someone conned his customer they'll have a hard time getting referrals from them in the future ;)

But yes, Internet is a big place, and the amount of work that needs doing in the UK is HUGE, so there is also space for less-than-peftect companies.

But - £2k doesn't seem to be this much money, really - if it involves scanning pictures etc., which is quite time consuming, and a decent retoucing also takes time.

Companies I worked with traded basic, static websites at at least 3 grand, so in this case - they got what they paid for ;)

[Matt1959]

The problem is that there are a lot of people out there who know everything about their own business, but nothing about computers.



;)

Thats me:) but now learning fast! (music to Sillyjokes ears)

Good thread btw:rolleyes:

[ebonybailey]

in reply to your orginal question I think that the fact that the following companies ( for starters ) are still in business, means that your could be a ruthless con artist and still do really well.



Don't be shy to add your favourites!!!

[creospace]

Mercury,

I agree it is shocking what some people have paid for site designs/construction and to look what they got for it.

I'm not sure there will ever be a watchdog and i'm not sure if it would be a good thign or not all I can say is that there are plenty of rogues & amatures out there. There are by my own admitance better designers out there, move clever programmers than me but, it's knowing how to utilise that talent to form a good business and deliver a good product.

[Coding Monkey]

Absolutely!

I think what you're failing to look at is customer service. I believe there are two types of recommendations, and I constantly see it on this website

1) The "Nice Guy" Syndrome. This is where someone does work for you, and you really like the person. You recommend them based on how they're "helpful" or "friendly". After a while, someone comes along and shows you that the nice guy's work isn't particularly good, and therefore you no longer can justify recommending them

2) The "Did It" Recommendation. This is where you recommend someone for doing the job well, and generally other people agreeing. They might exceed your expectations or just keep to the brief, but they'll have done a good job. The problem is knowing whether they've done a good job, as not all services result in a product (i.e. cash) in return, but if you're able to ask what the purpose of the service was, then compare that to the results, you should have a basic idea.

As for the regulations, I agree, but as has been pointed out, the only people to know enough about the industry will be those working in it and it becomes a challenge. Which is generally a good thing, as otherwise Microsoft would be in charge of the WC3 and all hell would break loose based on their own agenda. But I disagree that bad businesses will go out of business, because you can be the best web design company in the world, but you can go out of business for not marketing successfully. If you're offering a bad service, it will ultimately catch up on you, but I've lost out on contracts because another company got there first and marketed themselves better, even though the rival companies work looked like that of a 8 year-old.

[Jim]

Blair & Co. Have been in business for years running their company into the ground. They seem to have the knack for finding the most useless heads of departments and are permanently engaged in boardroom infighting. I can see this company going down the pan.

[mercurywebdesign]

Interesting points.

Qska - the site in question really isn't worth the cash spent. The scanned pictures were never 'retouched' and there were only 5 or 6 of them. You could still see loads of scan lines through every one of them! The thing is, this 'company' had good digital images readily available but the designer said they couldn't use them? So they ended up scanning in of of product cards. :eek: Perhaps it's the area I work, but £2k for a site like this is a heck of a lot of money - maybe not for someone in london perhaps?

Just to move a little from the original thread, what fee structure do web designers here generally use - by page, by hour or something else? I feel what I'm offering is value for money and a quality service but I get the feeling I sometimes don't charge enough and that sometimes puts potential clients off with the "get what you pay for" syndrome. I'm finding a charge for X amount in Wiltshire is about right, but X amount in london is far too cheap. How do you get around this?

[Alpha]

People putting company names to the question 'please supply companies that are ruthless con artists' is really not on.

Sorry but I have had to remove all references to company names as I'm sure most of you will understand.


please try to refrain from such actions in the future:D

[mattk]

I've said it once and I'll say it again - word of mouth is the way to find a business, particularly Web design - however, time and time again I hear sob stories from people who've responded to call calls or "met someone" at a networking meeting and are ultimately left feeling less than satisfied with the standard of work and/or the cost.

The question is, how do you introduce governance to a sector such as Web design/development?

[Lily Moon]

I think there are many bad companies because there are many opportunists in the webdesign industry. But to ask the government to set up a watchdog for this will not help since everyone can get a website and hosting in the USA or in countries where regulation is not the name of the game...


I recently asked for a quote to build my website and always emphasized on the fact that I was a start-up. I received many quotes and only 2 bothered to 1) advise me on what to do in order not to spend the budget of already established companies and 2) give me cheaper alternatives to start me up until I can establish my presence better.


However, I also found out that there seems to be a ''silent'' agreement in terms of prices between web developers as most of the quotes for 8-10 pages were more or less at the same prices..... Hosting fees ranged from £7 to £500 per year!! That's in the UK!! Strangely enough, I can get a ready to run highly professional website with hosting included from the USA for $800....although I don't think it makes sense to have to go that far....


QSKA says 2K is not a lot..... In theory I do agree but for a small or start up company, it's a huge amount!!

[mercurywebdesign]

I have no idea. But surely it wouldn't take much for a group of like-minded web design agencies to come up with a code of practice that should be followed. Maybe once their are enough 'members' we could approach the relevant people to get government backing. Pie in the sky I know!

[creospace]

I know they've just launched this in Australia, is this the sort of thing you meant?

http://wipa.org.au

Gary

[SillyJokes]

In the first post the site was critisised for having poor images and spelling errors - where these not provided by the customer?

[mercurywebdesign]

Gary, this is just the thing I was thinking of. I don't think the UKWDA really has any bearing on client's perceptions on whether they are dealing with an honest company. But the travel agencies have ABTA, gas installers have CORGI....all of these agencies give you that 'peace of mind'...you get the idea.

[mtw]

I like the look of the Australian answer - WIPA. There are heavyweight bodies represented that give it legitimacy and it appears to be putting together a constitution that should keep it all in line.

It's in everybody's interest for something similar to appear in this country. Not only could it have a robust code of practice to members to follow, thereby giving reassurance to their customers, but it could represent this massive (and still growing) industry to decision makers.

So, where do we start????

Mark

[mercurywebdesign]

sj, the poor images were scans done by the designer even though there were digital images available which the designer rejected and the spelling errors were introduced by the designer - the client quoted "it had looked like it had been done by a five year old".

[creospace]

I recently asked for a quote to build my website and always emphasized on the fact that I was a start-up. I received many quotes and only 2 bothered to 1) advise me on what to do in order not to spend the budget of already established companies and 2) give me cheaper alternatives to start me up until I can establish my presence better.

Shame i didn't get a look in I could of made it 3 :) And there's no secret agreement, at least if there is i'm not in the circle of trust :)

Gary

[creospace]

So, where do we start????

I've spoken to various people before and had numerous discussions about starting this but it's never got anywhere. I've never headed up a discussion only been part of it.

[mercurywebdesign]

Well, I know its completely different to this, but I started and still run as chairman a committee-based club locally with 65 members. It could be run as a non-profit organisation (like a registered charity) with an AGM, committee meeting every quarter etc to decide guidelines of practice. Eventually and given time there could be an approach to trading standards or something to make it official.

I'm sure it's not difficult to initially setup. The hard part is sustaining it. I'd be up for this as I'm sure a lot of genuine honest web agencies out there would be. There is a massive resource pool here with marketing and PR to really drive it forward. Lets make it happen!

[calmdesign]

i think this sounds very interesting. The first thing, as you say, would be to decide some rough guidelines, which could be formed over a period of time.

But what type of guidelines? Let's take pricing for example- that would be difficult to outline when you have factors like:
- students/part time start-ups work for free or next to nothing while they build there portfolio
- the industry being so competitive
- company size
- company geographical location
-etc. etc.

Maybe pricing would have some kind of correlation to experience or geographical location, or a combination of factors? But then how do you qualify experience?

Maybe there could be some adherence to current markup practices as one of the guidelines - it's shocking how many web design company's website code i've looked at only to see an absolute mess 'under the hood'.

I think we should continue to braindump ideas for this and start the UKBF Web Standard for web design companies!

Coris.

[mattk]

I think the criteria should be:

Degree educated (BSc only)
Have worked for a top new media agency (top defined by New Media Age Top 50 Agency league table)
Worked on at least one UK blue-chip company Web site

That should sort the men from the boys.

[elite123]

Well they should only pay once they are happy with the finished job !!!

[mercurywebdesign]

Degree educated (BSc only)
Have worked for a top new media agency (top defined by New Media Age Top 50 Agency league table)
Worked on at least one UK blue-chip company Web site

Sounds a bit elitest though an very exclusive. A service quality agency should be more open than that.

I've been PMing an interested member here about some ideas for this so if we come up with anything, I'll post in here. Current thinking involves some kind of compliance with W3C coupled with a DTI-backed accredition scheme...

Coris, pricing as you say is a difficult thing to quantify. Perhaps there can be a way to grade web based professionals on 'value for money' rather than on price? Perhaps through a customer vote system? Perhaps when a project is finished, a link can be sent to them asking to evaluate their experience - then that designer gets a score - similar to Michelin star for restaurants.

[mtw]

Just like many walks of life, the academic quals aren't worth as much as the experience.

I think the criteria for such a body should be on meeting minimum standards for site construction and customer service. To my mind this means things like XHTML and WAI compliance, predictable pricing and fixed quotes, payment on completion, things like that. Just stuff that will give a client confidence they are not working with talentless cowboys.

In terms of pricing, like other professional bodies you can have grades based on business size or whether someone is a student. I hate to see it become something overly elitist, designed just to suit the highly-qualified few.

Mark

[calmdesign]

Well they should only pay once they are happy with the finished job !!!

I wish that was the case when picking up my car from the garage!

But seriously, i agree with Mark as well. It shouldn't be based on what education someone had. I think more emphasis should be about having a benchmark in work standard, and customer satisfaction and customer understanding.
Compliance in WCAG, WAI, XHTML are a good place to start regarding work practice.

[Matt1959]

Well they should only pay once they are happy with the finished job !!!

and thats the problem really. If you don't know whats good and whats not how do you know? Seems to me you have to have at least one if not two bad sites built before you start to understand what you should be getting and for what price.

[franglo]

I strongly disagree with the need for a BSc. We're talking about web design here, not necessarily just web development using specific technologies, and with web design, one of the most important things is artistic flair. You can't learn that from a degree.

"Have worked for a top new media agency" ? Why? And who gets to decide which agency is a top new one?

The whole point of the watchdog should NOT to be an elitist affair, as this would complete undermine its impartiality. There should be basic standards involved, yes, but come on, there should not be requirements that exclude talent.

A couple of ideas...

- WC3 compliance. Says it all really. I read a post somewhere (have no idea where, was a while ago) by someone claiming that WC3 standards were rubbish and any good designer would ignore them. Ridiculous. I think that all sites should be WC3 compliant. You might automatically think this was a given, but plenty of cowboys ignore this very basic thing.

- There should be some sort of grievance scheme in place. If someone reckons they've been ripped off by a designer subscribing to this code of practice, they would have someone to complain to and get results, if they had no joy with the designer directly. Even if the watchdog was not prepared to start legal action, they could at the very least, cut membership. Maybe have a blacklist? Not sure about the legalities of naming & shaming...

Pricing is a hard one. Quotes do vary hugely, and sometimes for very good reasons. Perhaps there could a maximum price cap, rather than a specific range? I suppose this gets harder to judge with big sites, but I mean, for a basic web site without a CMS, this should not be very high.

Perhaps rather than establishing pricing rules (and I'm not convinced this would benefit the client), a list of guidelines could be put together. A list of questions, really, for clients to ask. E.g. if they were quoted a stupidly high price, questions they could ask to find out if this was justified. I mean, silly money is silly money, but someone might not realise that a site used a really complicated database and had a content management system in place. Just a list of questions to help consumers ensure they weren't getting a raw deal.

[mercurywebdesign]

On rereading mattk's comment I believe it was said with a pinch of sarcasm! Anyway...

W3C is a good standard for coding purposes but it needs more awareness for the client as to why a site should be made to that standard - what are the benefits etc. I think this could be difficult to enforce but it could be set as a guideline for members to the scheme.

I like the idea of being graded by the customers themselves. You finish the project, you send a link to an evaluation form with no more than five criteria to grade for - say value for money, efficiency, responsiveness etc...Then, over time you build up a 1 to 5 star rating which reinforces customers opinion of a particular designer to gain more work. This way, the designer should have the rating in mind and do a good job every time.

Perhaps the web price guide could be drawn up for various areas of the country to help customers? This could be updated by a moderator in each part of the UK, taking an average of how much you should be paying for XYZ.

The more I think about this, the more it could work. It just needs a widespread take-up and large exposure to make it effective.

[DianeLH]

Hi all,

I think the sad reality is that no matter how much we each try to survive in businesses of any nature there is always going to be that one competitor who will undercut with prices, oversell, overpromise and always fail to provide.

We have been facing the same for 3 years with a company who profess to match our service in professionalism, systems and support and charge half the price.

It's only recently come to light that they have actually got massive debts but despite that still continue to obtain business loans with staggering interest rates and they are losing clients hand over fist due to poor service.

Surely it can only be a matter of time before either the reputation of some companies or their bank manager pulls the plug on trade.

Here's hoping ... !!

[franglo]

Diane,

It's one thing being undercut, but I agree with you, it's another completely when you know you're being undercut but the service provided is nothing near yours at all. It must be incredibly frustrating not to be able to yell at the other company's clients, "But we're better! And we're not crooks!" ;)

In your case, if the other company has huge debts, they can't stick around forever. I imagine a fair amount of their former disgruntled clients must come over to you eventually...?

[Chris Uren]

Yes. Poor companies do make it sometimes. But I still like to think they get their just desertts in the end!!

Chris
CUT BUSINESS COSTS (http://www.cutbusinesscosts.co.uk)

[mattk]

Haha, look at all the Web Monkeys scrabble for cover! Mercury is right though - my suggestion was tongue in cheek, but I was trying to illustrate how difficult it is to come up with a criteria.

[JoyDivision]

Just 8 months trading most my work is now repeats or recomendations I spend little time advertising, in fact I need to get out there and advertise more. However I reckon out of 150 I would have about 2-3 disatisfied customers :(.

[franglo]

Oh, I don't know... If you stuck a bunch of designers and developers in a room for long enough, I'm sure they'd be able to come up with a criteria list that most people agreed with.

That's not really the issue at hand.

Who would run such a thing? Where would funding come from?

Whilst I commend mercury's enthusiasm, if web designers are heading up this thing, non profit as it may be, it cannot possibly be treated as a neutral body.

[mercurywebdesign]

It could be run as a team effort - but it would have to be run by designers because the industry is changing all the time and imho the designers are 'at the coal face' and know whats happening - the last thing you want is red tape to hold back a dynamic industry like this. Funding could come from lots of areas, grants for one and training schemes held in city locations - this hubworking centre thekitchendesigner talks about in Liverpool street would fit the bill perfectly.

[qska]

Sorry to reply with such a delay.

As for the 2 grand websites - I still think this isn't much money for the amount of work it involves to scan pictures etc.

BUT - I also don't advocate offering poor quality of service, there's no justification for that.

Anyway, in typical business - wages are about a third of the turnover, so when your website is "2 grand", you're able to pay someone to develop it a third, being 667 quid - and taking the hourly rate of 10-15 pounds an hours (varies in different locations) you'll end up with 40-60 hours of work - being a week and a half.

Now - what can you do in a week and a half? Answer yourself :-)

I'm not trying to say that everyone has to charge more, but when you are established as a business you need to support all the infrastructure, offer your staff the possibility of trainings, hire some people to do your accounting, H&S, upgrate software&hardware, so there's no point in undercharging, otherwise you'll be a "startup" your whole lifespan :P

But - there's an open market out there, and if there are people (freelancers, or moonlighters) doing stuff cheaper - clients can always go to them and potentially save a 2/3 of the cost.

But it involves being attached to a person, not a company, which sometimes is tricky ;)

Moreover - I don't really think many regulations are required in the industry, after all - the best way of saying whether the company is "professional" or not - is by looking at their previous work, and not counting the occurences of the "professional" word on their website ;)

I know - people don't know what to look for in the websites/portfolio when they look for a company, but in my opinion, there's a place for EDUCATION, not REGULATION.

After all - if someone wants to have blue text on green background and pay 20 pounds for that site - why don't let them? ;)

I'll also advocate dealing with companies instead of individuals - it's much more likely that a company will offer a decent support down the line, whereas a freelancer/moonlighter is likely to be very busy with other projects and won't necessarily have the time to do support/new features.

So it's all a tradeoff I think.

There's nothing inherently wrong with any of these things, maybe only one - offering a service that sucks.

But - who forces the client to accept such crap? If it's so bad, why won't the client return to them and ask them to provide decent quality of the scanned pictures and postprocessing? After all - it SHOULD be taken into account while providing the initial proposal. It isn't a "change of scope" ;)

[mercurywebdesign]

As for the 2 grand websites - I still think this isn't much money for the amount of work it involves to scan pictures etc.

The fact is, the designer didn't need to do these scans (all 6 of them!). Even the customer couldn't understand why the designer had put the CD into the computer, looked at it for 30 seconds and said he couldn't use the pictures. Then opted to spend a day at the customers premises just scanning in pictures (and very poorly at that). This is a blatant stab at ripping the customer off by making it look like they've put in 8 hours of work when it should really of only taken less than an hour. The customer had, possibly niavely, paid the designer upfront in full so was unfairly over a barrel.

If you want to charge x amount, and you've done a good job thats of little concern for me. But when a higher than average fee is coupled with a complete disregard for the customer's business image and poor quality of service, this is what concerns me - it brings a bad name to designers - some customers may never feel they can trust another designer again after the way they sometimes get treated and I don't blame them.

[qska]

I understand your point, and I agree with it the point that anyone offering expensive crap should be shot ;)

[mercurywebdesign]

Is Gerald Ratner still alive? :eek: