Logo's [Archive] - UK Business Forums

YEM

5th September 2006, 16:58

Lex - The logo has not been put on the site yet ;-)

Yem - I have no other experience, however I consider myself adaptable at most things. Saying that my price would be very cheap.

If anyone wants to see the logo I designed today, for my site pm me your email address.

Hi Pete,

Thanks for that. The reason that I ask is because I believe that people should stick to what they know. Without experience, how can you offer a quality service as opposed to a design agency, or branding consultant such as Eagle (eagleimagery.co.uk), or Redwelly Media Ltd (www.redwellymedia.co.uk)? (There are others on here too, Jacqui at Creacom for example).

If you are trying to build a creative business, it is important to have a portfolio to show your clients your capabilities, otherwise, how will they know what you can do.

There are a few posts on here about this topic, so have a search to find them, I'm sure they'll provide you with some good information.

With regards to your services being 'cheap' - people get what they pay for and you may want to consider this!!!

I don't mean to be negative, however there are hundreds of people out there trying to create logos/brands etc etc for people and those clients find that in as little as six months down the road, they need to re-brand their business, because the existing brand isn't positioning them at the right place.

Some of the first things many people ask when choosing a designer is:
'What is your background?'
'What is your experience?'
'Who are your existing clients?' (portfolio)
'What can you do for me?'

If you can satisfy these questions, then great. If you're experince is designing my own logo, then you may need to consider whether you can actually offer this service at all.

PeteA

5th September 2006, 17:05

I am simply offering a logo for £10......lol

If they don't like it they dont have to pay.

I have produced 2 already with no complaints

Pete

This service is simply for people on tight budgets and only for UKBF members

Dawg

5th September 2006, 17:12

Dear YEM,
you said:
With regards to your services being 'cheap' - people get what they pay for and you may want to consider this!!!
I think they might want to consider this! Pete is offering a service. If people want to take it up it is surely up to them.
In fact I totally agree with you on the importance of experience, ability, knowledge and talent, and how it should be properly rewarded. But if people want (ahem) 'lower end provision', it is their choice.

PeteA

5th September 2006, 17:34

Exactly Dawg,

I mean I could try and pass myself off as a low end logo designer, charge £50 a shot. Instead I am being upfront and honest, if you don't like your £10 logo don't have it, how simple is that?

Red Ant Electronics

5th September 2006, 17:52

Lets see these 3 logo's you've made already then...

Coding Monkey

5th September 2006, 17:53

Without experience, how can you offer a quality service as opposed to a design agency, or branding consultant such as Eagle (eagleimagery.co.uk), or Redwelly Media Ltd (www.redwellymedia.co.uk)? (There are others on here too, Jacqui at Creacom for example).

Ahem. We're not just pretty faces ;)

PeteA

5th September 2006, 18:00

Red my new logo will go on my site soon....

The others 2 I made for friends of mine.

Blimey so much anger.....lol

Like I said if the person wanting a logo does not like it there is no problem.

Red Ant Electronics

5th September 2006, 18:06

I'd like to see this logo you made now...

PeteA

5th September 2006, 18:12

Eagle

5th September 2006, 18:27

But their is a problem, Pete - potential clients won't know you can't offer the same service as a seasoned, experienced professional designer...

That's the danger you place them in by offering your 'service'.

Can your £10 logo be placed on the side of 747 without losing any quality? Are you providing written copyright assignment? Do you design with Pantone colours? Do you even have a Pantone swatch book? Do you design with vector software (Photoshop/bitmap-based software just doesn't cut it). Can you advise the client on how best to apply their logo on a t-shirt? Could you competently sort out any issues arising with their printers?

I could go on....

Best of luck. :)

apeebles

5th September 2006, 18:33

Logo design is not always that straightforward. Apart from all the thought that goes into the image which a company is trying to portray then there are some basic rules. Ie. The spot colours in which the logo has designed in must have pantone references if it is going to be printed. Has it been checked to see if it can be reproduced in CYMK as well as RGB. To do this you need the pantone swatch books and while your at it how does it look on coated and uncoated stock?

As ever you pay for what you get.

PeteA

5th September 2006, 18:34

Eagle if anyone wants a cheap logo I will provide it.

PeteA

5th September 2006, 18:35

I am just providing a simular service to Tescos own brand.

Blue striped logo's

Lol

Dawg

5th September 2006, 18:47

I'd be suprised if Tesco's Blue Stripey branding cost them less than 100grand... but to Tesco thats just blue stripey money

Red Ant Electronics

5th September 2006, 18:52

Well if you asked nicely red or maybe pm'd me and left your email address I may send it, like I did to Tracey at little stork a few mins ago.

However You sound like a **** so I won't waste my time, unless of course you want to become a customer.

Nice customer service, maybe you could go full time and have your slogan as "Really Cheap Logo's, Really Cheap Service"

PeteA

5th September 2006, 19:02

Designing logo's is something I will do for members here who are on a tight budget.

I do not or will ever consider it a business.

I like that slogan though "Really Cheap Logo's, Really Cheap Service"

Do you feel that threatened???......lol

JustOneUK

5th September 2006, 19:16

you go for it mate, you might be great at it.

you will need to get a portfolio page online, sending PM's back and forth doesn't do it for me.
(PS: I need lots of logos designed)

James.

Scott-CopyandDesign

5th September 2006, 19:32

People who charge high prices always get so defensive when someone comes in who is cheaper or less experienced, I have noticed that. (when I mentioned that I thought I could probably do SEO and Marketing work I got quite abrasive replies as well).

Not having a person charging cheaper is not going to force people to spend loads. People shouldn't get so threatened.

PeteA

5th September 2006, 19:35

James simply email me at

info@bizseller4u.com

I will give it a go.

Pete

Bulldog Design

5th September 2006, 19:38

We're talking about two different target markets. Fair enough, the bigger companies aren't going to look for budget designers, they will always hire premium-price designers.

But what about the average startup business? The fact is, they simply can't afford premium prices. Although I do agree that logo's should be print and web ready vectors and copyright should be handed over as standard.

Just because a someone knows their market and prices their services accordingly, it doesn't mean they aren't a talented designer.

fastfences

5th September 2006, 19:47

I am just providing a simular service to Tescos own brand.

Lol

And there surely is a place, and need, for such a service.

'Every little helps!'

cheers, nigel

Eagle

5th September 2006, 19:48

Coding Monkey

5th September 2006, 20:03

I don't offer any of the services that you were offering, so there was no need for me to be defensive, rather informative. Purely the way that you believed you knew it was a sheer delusion, and your responses in other threads have verified this.

I have no problem if someone wants to offer a cheap service, as there will always be a market available for it. And I know that in most cases, that person is never likely to be a customer, because they only look toward the price, not the value. However, it's understandable why people feel the need to make the distinction between the prices, as the customer cannot be expected to know of what to look for in a professional in all cases.

People who charge high prices always get so defensive when someone comes in who is cheaper or less experienced, I have noticed that. (when I mentioned that I thought I could probably do SEO and Marketing work I got quite abrasive replies as well).

Scott-CopyandDesign

5th September 2006, 20:05

It's the client who is under threat, not the competition. :)
Not necessarily. People who do cheap work can do very good jobs, it depends how they value their work (for example you could do a very good design for £10, whats stopping that from happening is the fact that you don't want to).

It's a simple fact that small businesses can't afford it sometimes. I'd rather any business get a cheaper service instead of pressurising them with my more expensive work, I know how they feel and I treat them as I would want to be treated.

But to be realistic. Whether you spend Hundreds or thousands on a Logo, it won't make a difference in the long run, unless you're a large corporation or theres a very noticable difference.

Purely the way that you believed you knew it was a sheer delusion
This is my point about people becoming more offensive. I never believed I knew, if I believed I knew I wouldn't of made a thread asking the question. I asked to get a confirmation about what is involved since from what I percieved it didn't seem that difficult and I was asking someone to prove me wrong and explain, like I said in the thread "they have university degrees in marketing for a reason".

I really wish people wouldn't get so defensive when people are just trying to learn....

Coding Monkey

5th September 2006, 20:16

Not necessarily. People who do cheap work can do very good jobs, it depends how they value their work (for example you could do a very good design for £10, whats stopping that from happening is the fact that you don't want to).

Or the fact that he has overheads, expenses in software (costing around £1500 minimum every 18 months), expenses in hardware, drawing tablets, understanding clients requirements, knowledge (an expense itself to get to that level), unlimited revisions and so on and so on. If Mark wished to charge £10 for a logo, he would go bankrupt, as an average logo does not take an hour to do. Even if it did, where would the money come from to market himself after salaries and expenses? You also learn that, in a strange twist, people appreciate and accept advice more, the more they pay for it.

But to be realistic. Whether you spend Hundreds or thousands on a Logo, it won't make a difference in the long run, unless you're a large corporation or theres a very noticable difference.

Why do you say that? A client of ours has become one of the most recognised in their industry since they did a complete rebrand, and the association becomes stronger with the more marketing they do, until their logo is known enough that people automatically associate it with their service. Their marketing then follows a specific theme, along with their website, that carries the brand through and presents them as a more successful company - something everyone wants to deal with.

Cornish Steve

5th September 2006, 20:20

Let's give Pete some encouragement, guys, instead of just pouncing. As long as everyone understands the groundrules, what's the problem? As Pete says, he's being quite open about not having worked in this field before. It's a nice way for someone to get an inexpensive logo and for him to build some credibility. No risk, no reward. Maybe it won't work for some, but what's to lose?

Eagle's and Tom's points are valid and must be taken into account; however, for some startups, Pete's offer may be just the ticket.

little_stork

5th September 2006, 20:28

Bloomin eck!!! What a can of worms pete has opened here!! I have seen the logo and in my unprofessional opinion it looks good. As a few people have stated on here, many new businesses can't afford the kind of money that many designers charge. My question to designers is this: If i pay you a few hundred pounds to design my logo how will that help me sell more, than if i pay pete a tenner to design it?

Also does a customer know the difference?

Please do not get offended my my ignorance. I understand the costings of equipment etc. Educate me please.
Regards Tracey

Scott-CopyandDesign

5th September 2006, 20:31

Or the fact that he has overheads, expenses in software (costing around £1500 minimum every 18 months), expenses in hardware, drawing tablets, understanding clients requirements, knowledge (an expense itself to get to that level), unlimited revisions and so on and so on. If Mark wished to charge £10 for a logo, he would go bankrupt, as an average logo does not take an hour to do. Even if it did, where would the money come from to market himself after salaries and expenses? You also learn that, in a strange twist, people appreciate and accept advice more, the more they pay for it.
I'm well aware. My point is he could do it for £10 if he wanted to, not including the variables. There are many people with adiquite levels of skill who do not have a Business. They spend a few hundred pounds on Photoshop or Illustrator, they have a Computer and a Graphics tablet. What I'm saying is the cost should not be the only factor in deciding who is a good graphics designer. I know some individuals who are incredibly artistic and knowledgeable and would do some work for £40 which is at a more then acceptable level.

Edit: Little_stork has it spot on. For a small business is spending the extra money worth it and will it end up making more profit for the more money you have spent (this is on the terms of a decent logo design like Pete's and a design which costs much more).

Why do you say that? A client of ours has become one of the most recognised in their industry since they did a complete rebrand, and the association becomes stronger with the more marketing they do, until their logo is known enough that people automatically associate it with their service. Their marketing then follows a specific theme, along with their website, that carries the brand through and presents them as a more successful company - something everyone wants to deal with.
it won't make a difference in the long run, unless you're a large corporation or theres a very noticable difference.

CG Effect

5th September 2006, 20:35

Without branding or a logo your business looks the same as every other business with no branding. Think of how long you want someone to spend on the look of your business, you want someone that knows what their doing to avoid problems with printing and the design working and know that you have to pay them at least minimum wage + his or her running costs.

A designer that knows they are good are not going to want to earn the same as the worst jobs in the UK.

An original logo takes a lot of time to create. For £10 a logo I would never make my money back on my investment. To make decent logos that work with printers and designers a logo designer needs to spend hundreds on vector design software and loads of time learning it. I was awful at logo design when I started it's taken a lot of practice and studying to get as good as I am.

The problem with logos is they ain't easy they got to be original so as not to get the owner into a legal battle over trademark theft.
They have to work with any medium and the client and his clients have got to like it.
Theirs lots of other considerations that a lot of people won't know about for that reason they make a costly mistake buying a bad design.
A rushed design will not cover what a logo needs to be.

fastfences

5th September 2006, 21:25

'Value' is a strange demon.

I have recently posted requesting info. on e-commerce prices. I had a quote (through a business referral) of £5640 PLUS VAT for a site that would launch with only 4 products. I had no doubt the site would be good.

My 'usual' designer (http://www.c2webdesign.co.uk/) has quoted five thousand UNDER the above, and I believe I will get an equally good, or better job.

There is no doubt that both the above companies offer a great product, it's just that sometimes we can go only with what we can afford.

cheers, Nigel

Dawg

5th September 2006, 21:44

Hey..Pete is offering a cheap service to people who can't or don't want to pay the rates established professionals charge. Nobody has to take him up on his offer. If they do; good luck.

So what is this 'overhead' this and 'experience' that, multiposting all about? We know the animals, (Monkey and Eagle), do great work, and that they incur overheads to do it at that level, but nobody is forcing them to incur those overheads. As they have chosen to do; good luck.

It is a marketplace, there is room for all. Some will prosper, some will not; but is this forum really the place to get snitty about it?

I sort of thought that a small business forum might be supportive of someone 'having a go', rather than asking where his design licence is.

(The Pro's are not going to get this business anyway, although in a few cases the micro businesses will grow and need rebranding, which they will then get done by one of the Pro's.)

And BTW Red Ant Electronics, a bit rich asking him (twice?) to post the logos up when you have zilch up. Cheap shot really.

dan_moore

5th September 2006, 22:38

Wow, what a load of debate over this; quite surprising really!

After all, Pete's telling them upfront that he's a novice and that they don't even have to give him a tenner if they don't like it. So for those who have zero ability to create logos and hardly any budget, this might be a useful service. Surely the biggest risk to the client is they spend nothing and click 'delete' on the image he sends them the next day, and then pay someone more experienced a serious amount of money to come up with something different!

Carl-CSNM

5th September 2006, 22:44

Shouldn't this post be in the offers section anyway? ;)

SpeedyExpressCouriers

6th September 2006, 00:13

Can you create them in 3D with any animation?

Cornish Steve

6th September 2006, 00:14

Maybe that's how it started, but now we're discussing many things:

- How a startup gains credibility in business.
- How you determine your target market.
- How you distinguish a genuine offer from a false one.
- What constitutes good from bad customer service.
- To what extent professional qualifications are required in business.
- The image of a product created by a very low price.

:)

bwglaw

6th September 2006, 00:55

I think the simple fact here is that the designers on here feel undermined and threatened in some way when someone offers to design a logo. I have had a logo designed professionally for £500 and that just suits my budget whereas £500 is probably 1 or 2 weeks wages for some on here!

Just because someone offers to change your oil filter for £10 does not make him/her a professional mechanic and PeteA is not claiming to be a professional in this field.

I have competition on this forum and I simply do not care. I let the clients decide themselves whether my time is worth my fee.

Clients do not need to be wrapped in cotton-wool, they can decide for themselves. If they make a mistake, so be it, because that is the only way to learn in business and I have made the very same mistake.

Let's welcome those who are very new to business and finding their way in life

apeebles

6th September 2006, 05:22

Clients do not need to be wrapped in cotton-wool, they can decide for themselves. If they make a mistake, so be it, because that is the only way to learn in business and I have made the very same mistake.

I agree. My earlier comments really addressed the problems which can go wrong by a poorly designed logo when it is applied to print. This forum is designed to promote business and the issues we all face. So if you are a small business and need a logo designing for £10 then it looks like there is a solution which has to be a good thing.

SillyJokes

6th September 2006, 06:32

I think you logo designers are missing a trick here.

Why not offer a low cost solution alongside your main work, say £40 a logo and then just buy a £10 one off of PeteA and sell it on?

Coding Monkey

6th September 2006, 07:04

I'm well aware. My point is he could do it for £10 if he wanted to, not including the variables. There are many people with adiquite levels of skill who do not have a Business. They spend a few hundred pounds on Photoshop or Illustrator, they have a Computer and a Graphics tablet. What I'm saying is the cost should not be the only factor in deciding who is a good graphics designer.

No, he couldn't. Re-read what I said. £10 = bankruptcy. Unlike yourself, to get to his level of skill, you're not going to be particularly young (no offense, Mark ;)) and therefore will have dependencies. Of course it's not always a matter of price in who is the best, otherwise the most expensive would always win. Value, value, value. And how do designers get to charge the prices they do? Because of their perceived value. You don't simply go from charging £10 to £350 after a few logo designs. And, as previously mentioned, the normal person won't know the difference in the value of what they're receiving, as I constantly learn in new professions where a service is not being offered by default, which it should be.

it won't make a difference in the long run, unless you're a large corporation or theres a very noticable difference.

So, you're saying that is a difference between the price of quality? Or, what you just said is a complete contradiction of the above, as you're not saying a very broad statement, in that a very noticable difference could mean anything.

Just to clarify, I stated at the beginning that I have no problem with what Pete is doing. He's not competition, and he's been honest from the beginning to state what he's doing (although I thought it was a joke to begin with). We don't currently offer logo design as a stand-alone service - it will be designed with the website, and therefore our target audience is way beyond anything described so far. The problem begins when it suddenly is considered a rip-off to invest more money into something, because some people cannot see the benefit of it, and therefore it becomes questioned. The people being questioned join in. Hardly a surprise there. But I would agree, in most cases, a start-up company (in most sectors, ignoring things like fashion) would be better off marketing their company before investing into a complete branding solution, including logo design. But this doesn't mean all of them do, and neither does it mean all of them should not invest into their corporate image, as you only have one first impression. As with most things, it will depend on budgets, competition, nature of the business, marketing plans etc etc.

sumodaz

6th September 2006, 11:10

Quite a debate, pete can you PM me with a link to an example.

Eagle

6th September 2006, 11:55

I think you logo designers are missing a trick here.

Why not offer a low cost solution alongside your main work, say £40 a logo and then just buy a £10 one off of PeteA and sell it on?
Because I wouldn't want to be associated with sub-standard work. No offence... :) I resell (albeit seldomly) but I would never sell other's work as my own - I have a reputation to maintain. :)

PeteA

6th September 2006, 12:02

Eagle the reason this thread has caused such as stir is this.

There are some genuine people on here who do provide top quality logo's yourself included.

However there are also some people on here who are charging around £50 for a logo. These people are producing logo's of a standard less than I am for £10. This is the reason for the upset.

I can knock up a semi decent logo out in an hour, £10 seems a reasonable price. I enjoy making them as it gets me away from the mundane work I do on my own business.

If anyone has a problem with my offer to UKBF members, it should be asked why?

Eagle

6th September 2006, 12:12

Sure, but you need to understand that a logo isn't just a pretty design with the companies name next to it. It goes much, much deeper than that and includes consideration with how the design will be used for branding?... will it work in black & white? etc etc.

I don't have a problem with you offering a logo for £10, seriously. The client who will gladly pay for a £10 logo, I do not want!

My problem is not with you doing them, it's the danger that most unwary clients will be in when they buy from you (and others) with zero experience. They'll be thinking "hey, I got my identity sorted for £10 - great!" But is the product really going to serve them well and aid in their marketing efforts? The proof of the pudding is in the eating of course but I think you're just opening yourself up for dramas (possibly major) further down the line.

Just imagine if I mentioned on the forum that I'd just bought and read a book on law and was now offering legal advice to business start-ups (and charging for it too!). The legal folk on here would be going yampee!

:)

Red Ant Electronics

6th September 2006, 12:14

Please, I'd really like to see this logo that you designed yesterday, If it's not to bad I might take you up on the offer myself!

Please PM it to me...

Thanks

Mac Yeti

6th September 2006, 12:14

My question to designers is this: If i pay you a few hundred pounds to design my logo how will that help me sell more, than if i pay pete a tenner to design it?

Hi Tracey,

The difference is that when you go to a professional designer they will do more than make it look good, which as Pete has proven anyone with photoshop can do.

A professional will put thought into what is needed from a logo, brainstorming and drawing out key words, values and goals. They'll understand the history of your company, your target market, your longevity and your customers. They'll work to understand the core values of your business and make your logo representative of that, knowing that it needs to be instantly recognisable, attractive to your target market and distinctive from other logos in the market.

Through experience they will know more about what colours and shapes provoke the required response from potential and existing customers such as pastel colours for relaxation, cool colours for weightlessness or buoyancy and then more specific colours such as green for life and growth, money, safety, harmony etc

They will also know how to apply this according to your target market for example if your business was activity holidays for children in china, then they'd think about using yellow because they'd know that yellow is sacred to the Chinese, if you target market was not China but Greece or France, they'd know that yellow would be out of the question because it is signified as sadness and jealousy respectively in those countries.
jealousy in France.

The designer will also know how best to represent your logo for example if you sold hand made jewelry then you'd benefit from something elegant and sophisticated. Whereas if you sold PCs then you'd want something to show you as dependable and reliable (i.e IBM logo).

Above all this the designer will make sure that your logo is recognisable and able to be used in a variety of mediums (T-shirts, vans, internet, print). They'll provide you with all these formats for future use.

Professionals will also know what to avoid such as gradients, photography or faces, patterns, they'll also know how to produce vector graphics, I could go on, but I hope I've got the point across.

And all that said, if Pete wants to produce £10 logos and he can make good money out of it then that's great for him, as long as the client is happy with what they're getting and what they're not getting.

PeteA

6th September 2006, 12:24

For anyone who is interested my web designer is implementing my new logo...the £10 one, it can be viewed at

http://www.bizseller4u.com/mockindex.php

It should then be compared to the original one, that was designed by my initial web designer

www.bizseller4u.com (http://www.bizseller4u.com)

Anyone wanting a logo, simply pm me the details....

Pete

PeteA

6th September 2006, 12:27

Did I say I had photoshop.........lol

I dont.

I had to make a few minor alterations to the logo, however it should be on view soon at

http://www.bizseller4u.com/mockindex.php

Pete

YEM

6th September 2006, 12:53

If anyone has a problem with my offer to UKBF members, it should be asked why?

I think there has been some misundertanding with regards to peple having a problem. In my post certainly, I was letting you know about what people tend to ask when choosing a designer.

If you want to offer this service and people want to use it then great, however from experience, I have found that most people will get at least three quotes for a comparison, especially for services that they may be a little unsure about. For example, we are currently having a new system developed which is costing a small fortune. We are not experts in the field, (YEM is a magazine for entrepreneurs, and we have experts writing for us in the various fields, rather than us preaching what we dont know to our readers)!

My point, is that you may come through some problems when your clients are provided with 3 quotes, yours £10, someone else's (could be £200) or someone else (could be £500). The first thing they are going to think (or at least I would) is why he huge differences in cost. Obviously when (If) they come back to you, you let them know that you are offering this at this price and you have no experience, if this is ok with them, then fine.

Through talking with business owners at variious events I have found, especially with some new businesses, that if the difference is so far out, they wont bother going back to the lowest (or indeed highedt) price as the quotes are obviously not for the same service.

If you're doing this as a hobby, then of course there's no harm, if it works for you then fair enough. However if you are going to develop this into a business, you will definately have to consider the points raised on here especially regarding copyright, vector, overheads, software etc etc etc.

Oh and...

Ahem. We're not just pretty faces

Of course you guys...

PeteA

6th September 2006, 13:07

Rest assured it will never be anything other than a hobby.

I have a small business advertising company to run, my aim is to develop this UK wide in the next 10 years.

Yem, your site is on theme with ours would you like to swap links?

Pete

Red Ant Electronics

6th September 2006, 13:52

I preferred the first one friend...

Scott-CopyandDesign

6th September 2006, 13:59

Hi Tracey,

The difference is that when you go to a professional designer they will do more than make it look good....etc etc

I agree with your post but to be honest it all seems like common sense. By that I mean choosing the colours, styles and other variables to suit the business, brand and market (then again I've done some minor marketing and graphics studies so maybe this has helped).

Everytime I've went to any designer I've always told him exactly what I want with websites or logos. Whenever I get an idea I always get an image in my head and unless I really think the designers suggestions are better or would suit my brand/business more then I will just stick to my own plan.

PeteA

6th September 2006, 14:28

Red the first one is the new one

Mac Yeti

6th September 2006, 14:38

I agree with your post but to be honest it all seems like common sense. By that I mean choosing the colours, styles and other variables to suit the business, brand and market (then again I've done some minor marketing and graphics studies so maybe this has helped).

Everytime I've went to any designer I've always told him exactly what I want with websites or logos. Whenever I get an idea I always get an image in my head and unless I really think the designers suggestions are better or would suit my brand/business more then I will just stick to my own plan.

I think this is exactly the problem with design on the web today.

Believe it or not there are fundamental principles to design that are not common sense, something that can be learned by trial and error or doing what you think looks good to you. There's an awful lot of knowledge and understanding behind the designs that are clearly distinguishable from the amateurs attempt.

I hate the fact that the wonderfully open nature of the Internet means that it is mostly exploited by idiots who think because they have got a copy of dreamweaver/photoshop/insert tool here, and played about with it a couple of times they can call themselves a designer and start selling their services to the unsuspecting client.

I don't want the Internet to become regulated but I fear that unless these issues are addressed it probably should be.

CG Effect

6th September 2006, 15:00

Red Ant Electronics

6th September 2006, 15:08

Red the first one is the new one
No, I prefer the one on www.bizseller4u.com's homepage, not the new one.

PeteA

6th September 2006, 15:13

of course you do.......lol

Scott-CopyandDesign

6th September 2006, 15:15

I think this is exactly the problem with design on the web today.

Believe it or not there are fundamental principles to design that are not common sense, something that can be learned by trial and error or doing what you think looks good to you. There's an awful lot of knowledge and understanding behind the designs that are clearly distinguishable from the amateurs attempt.

I hate the fact that the wonderfully open nature of the Internet means that it is mostly exploited by idiots who think because they have got a copy of dreamweaver/photoshop/insert tool here, and played about with it a couple of times they can call themselves a designer and start selling their services to the unsuspecting client.

I don't want the Internet to become regulated but I fear that unless these issues are addressed it probably should be.
Well really they can call themselves a designer, it's the definition. It really comes down to what they offer and in-turn the price. I know many people who can do a very good job with design work. They could charge hundreds of pounds and start a business if they wanted to but if it doesn't suit them then they wont. They just charge a couple of quid and do it as a favour.

But I don't think people have to worry. If someones smart enough to have a successful business then they will know if a design or logo is rubbish or not, and at least they don't pay higher money for a rubbish logo, the price and quality goes in proportion.

Just depends who you know. I bet there are some 'designers' out there who use MS paint and clipart, I have yet to encounter one though.

YEM

6th September 2006, 15:43

At least he's spending an hour.

A printers I used to work for charged £12 a logo the designer had 20 mins to create it and she had to use pagemaker and clipart to make the thing otherwise it would of taken too long. Theirs businesses all over lancashire with the same logo design and printing. That clipart collection would of been sold all over the world. No wonder lawyers are loaded.

I think I know who that is...

Lots of printers offer this service (not necessarily at £12) but the work is usually being produced by a Mac Operator, rather than a Designer!!!!

bwglaw

6th September 2006, 15:56

Just imagine if I mentioned on the forum that I'd just bought and read a book on law and was now offering legal advice to business start-ups (and charging for it too!). The legal folk on here would be going yampee!
:)

Possibly, but this is different. You expect someone to be qualified to give legal advice. Many people on this forum, not qualified, do give advice on the forum. I would just correct any information that appears to be wrong.

At what point does someone become "qualified" as a designer? It being an unregulated profession it is much harder when to say whether a designer is qualified

YEM

6th September 2006, 16:02

At what point does someone become "qualified" as a designer? It being an unregulated profession it is much harder when to say whether a designer is qualified

A qualified designer will have acheived design qualifications, ranging from BTEC through to a Degree, and some (MA, PHD etc etc etc).

You cannot call yourself a qualified designer if you're not. You can however be an experienced (and very good) designer withough being qualified, although as I expect with all professions, CDP is of upmost importance to keep in line with new regualtions and advances in the industry.

With regard to being regulated, there are organistions that designers can become members of - http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=design+associations+uk&spell=1

bwglaw

6th September 2006, 16:12

With respect, being a member of an organisation is not the same as being regulated. Joining an organisation of some sort you are just agreeing to their code of practice, ethics and conduct etc.

At least we know PeteA did not say he was a "qualified designer" as this would have been misrepresentation.

I think you mean "CPD" not "CDP", or do designers do things differently?! ;)

Jonathan

PeteA

6th September 2006, 16:36

PeteA is qualified in Health and Safety NEBOSH, Vehicle Engineering Pt 3, Quailtiy Assesments, Physical Training, Skiing Instructor, Arctic Survival, Commando Trained, Abrasive Wheels, ECDL and finally Swimming Pool attendant

I am not qualified however in logo design, saying that for a tenner you will get my best efforts for an hour. With no payment necessary if you are not happy.

YEM

6th September 2006, 16:38

With respect, being a member of an organisation is not the same as being regulated. Joining an organisation of some sort you are just agreeing to their code of practice, ethics and conduct etc.

Of course, but legal advice/services, or financial advice/service aren't in the same boat as Design and design, at the end of the day, is somebody's interpretation of a brief, so it would be difficult to regulate! Of course, legals such as yourself, are not in a position to interprete aspects of law and so regulation becomes easier

I think you mean "CPD" not "CDP", or do designers do things differently?! ;)

Jonathan

Oops, yes I do, typing too quickly, end of the day, you know what its like...BTW I'm not a designer!!!

TheAussieScott

6th September 2006, 16:59

Good on you Pete & anyone that wrote a post less than 500 words to prove a point. Let us know how business goes! All the best tiger! Look into Photoshop - buy the standard version for starters. A bit cheaper but still does the job :)

Eagle

6th September 2006, 17:11

Look into Photoshop... does the job :)Lol - no, Photoshop simply does not do the job at all.

billhilton

6th September 2006, 17:13

Sliding off-topic: if I see the plural of "logo" written with an apostrophe-s one more time you'll all be getting a detention. You're allowed the apostrophe when it's a possessive:

"The logo's colour-scheme is nice."

But not when it's a simple plural:

"I've designed eight logos."

Eagle

6th September 2006, 17:18

Are you a professional and/or qualified to give out detentions? ;) :p

Cornish Steve

6th September 2006, 17:21

Are you a professional and/or qualified to give out detentions? ;) :p
Watch out, because I'm sure he's sufficiently qualified to fine you £500 and not just £10.

Vicky R

6th September 2006, 17:25

billhilton

6th September 2006, 17:25

I've got a PGCE, which qualifies me to give you a detention, make you do up your top button AND tell you to spit out your chewing gum. So just watch it, sonny.

billhilton

6th September 2006, 17:27

As the inflatable headmaster said to the inflatable boy in the inflatable school:

"You're letting me down, you're letting the school down, but most of all you're letting yourself down".

Eagle

6th September 2006, 17:33

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y102/pbr/ban.jpg

:D ;) ;)

Carl-CSNM

6th September 2006, 17:34

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y102/pbr/ban.jpg

Did you do that in Photoshop or Paint? ;) :p

billhilton

6th September 2006, 17:42

I might just have to speak to your form teacher about that.

Though you're right, I *do* look a bit like Russell Crowe :-)

Eagle

6th September 2006, 17:44

Did you do that in Photoshop or Paint? ;) :p
Not mine! :p

PeteA

6th September 2006, 18:02

I am going to look into designing websites for £20 next............lol

CG Effect

6th September 2006, 21:17

Photoshop does the job for logos as long as you don't mind paying the printers DTP department to re draw it bigger or do it the standard way before they start the printing stage.

Eagle

6th September 2006, 21:21

So why not do it right in the first place?! :)

CG Effect

6th September 2006, 21:24

I use Illustrator CS for logos I use it for texturemaps for 3D models too. I would'nt hand over a logo design to a client cowboy designed.
I ment Photoshop was ok for some but their will be problems down the line.

Eagle

6th September 2006, 21:25

It's ok, I wasn't referring to you. :)

CG Effect

6th September 2006, 21:29

Thaught so with the smile at the end. Some on here don't understand me though. Like in another thread when I compared a 6ft by 2ft monitor to a boat on a waterless world and one member said "who these days lives on a planet without water".

Dawg

6th September 2006, 23:19

Other peopel (http://www.fixedby.me.uk/) are doing logo's cheeply to, altho' they will prob get detension's also.:D

Eagle

7th September 2006, 00:11

Lol - that's class! Bookmarked. ;)

Tin

7th September 2006, 06:47

88 posts about a logo, I mean...... ? come on guys, get a life ;)

PeteA

7th September 2006, 07:54

And there was me thinking this was a forum, for people to discuss matters, hey Tin.

redtiger

7th September 2006, 11:36

I agree with RedWelly and Eagle, you have to realise that companies that offer branding consultancy at a 'higher price', such as ourselves, do naturally feel the urge to put things in perspective.

It's not about being afraid of the competition, it's about doing what's right for the client and making both you and the end-client realise that branding isn't about designing a logo that looks okay and cost you a tenner, but more about achieving something and putting a purpose to a business.

It's about creating a look and feel that induces specific feelings to attain the client's approach, provision of service/product and quality.

If you build someone a logo for a tenner and it's poor, people think the company, service and product is poor. That's the bottom line.

Luv n hugs,
Alex

Cornish Steve

7th September 2006, 13:23

Some people make a living selling Rolls Royces. Others sell Mercedes. Others sell Fiats. Others sell pushbikes. Everyone meets a need and everyone makes money.

redtiger

7th September 2006, 13:26

But people don't always know what they 'need', otherwise Branding Consultancy wouldn't exist.

PeteA

7th September 2006, 13:55

Red what if a logo is made for a tenner and the standard is fine? You are presuming too much.

My web designer contacted me yesterday and had this to say.

I can't understand what all the fuss was about on that thread. You are offering people a cheap logo - so what! It's not like you are threatening those who make a living from logo design or are in league with the devil or something; no idea why some people seemed genuinely offended by it. Very, very bizarre. I have a few sites myself that I don't have time to have created decent logos for so I'll be asking you to do a couple over the next few weeks

And he does know what he is talking about.....

redtiger

7th September 2006, 14:02

Please don't take offence Pete, I'm not getting moody about it; all I'm trying to do it show you why us branding consultants challenge things like that.

I'm not presuming anything as per the price either, I'm just stating how I feel about the situation. A brand isn't just about logo design and any logos should be treated with a large amount of consideration, unless you're living in India and put magic beans into your car instead of Diesal then a tenner won't cover that.

Alex

PeteA

7th September 2006, 15:21

Well the new logo on my site is a million times better than the old one done by my initial web designer, more importantly I am very happy with it.

This is the quality you get for a tenner....lol

www.bizseller4u.com (http://www.bizseller4u.com)

wyldman100

7th September 2006, 21:13

So it took you a few hours to design a logo, how many is that - let's just say 2 hours at £10, that's £5 an hour. Deduct the costs of the software that you used (you did buy a software license didn't you), deduct tax, deduct all your other costs, I think you would be better off working in McDonalds.

PS. I recently for the first time took an ex-customer who didn't pay his bills to the small claims court and completed all the legal documentation myself and represented myself in court. If you would like me to handle all your legal matters for £35/hour I can save you a lot of money over an experienced, professional and qualified layer.

PeteA

7th September 2006, 21:24

Wyldman you need to read back a bit to get the whole story....your a bit out.

Cornish Steve

7th September 2006, 22:02

I recently for the first time took an ex-customer who didn't pay his bills to the small claims court and completed all the legal documentation myself and represented myself in court. If you would like me to handle all your legal matters for £35/hour I can save you a lot of money over an experienced, professional and qualified layer.
Whoohoo. Entrepreneurial spirit is alive and kicking. Where there's a need, there's a business opportunity. Can't wait to see Jonathan's response. :)

PI Guy

7th September 2006, 22:04

Plenty of people doi the same thing. The small claims court was designed to be very user friendly.

bwglaw

7th September 2006, 22:25

If you would like me to handle all your legal matters for £35/hour I can save you a lot of money over an experienced, professional and qualified layer.

That is OK if the client wants a lawyer that cannot spell!

PI Guy

7th September 2006, 22:30

is being able to spell that important though i wonder?

cjd

7th September 2006, 22:32

I'd rather have a layer than a lawyer........

bwglaw

7th September 2006, 22:43

is being able to spell that important though i wonder?

A lawyer being a wordsmith, translator etc and charging a fair amount an hour, I let you wonder!.

Would you accept a contract that has been drafted by a lawyer that is full of spelling mistakes?

Bit like Accountants not adding up correctly

bwglaw

7th September 2006, 22:44

I'd rather have a layer than a lawyer........

...then you will need a lawyer to get you out of the mess created by the layer and to issue a claim for professional negligence! ;)

PI Guy

7th September 2006, 22:45

Well i've known plenty of lawyers and their secretaries write their stuff for them and spell check does the rest.

bwglaw

7th September 2006, 22:49

Well...during my time in a law firm I did my own drafting. I let the secretaries deal with the admin work

Do not assume that lawyers always delegate all their work to secretaries. They are sometimes delegated to paralegals, legal executives etc

It is not just spelling that has to be correct but the grammar

PI Guy

7th September 2006, 22:51

I was only joking about the secretaries thing.:)

But seriously, the small claims court are designed to be very friendly to the average joe.

bwglaw

7th September 2006, 22:55

But seriously, the small claims court are designed to be very friendly to the average joe.

You think.... hmmm

At one time I got a letter from the Court and I could not make head or tail of it and I am just a Layer! (spelling mistake intended!) ;)

I think the procedure could be simplified further

PeteA

8th September 2006, 05:16

Got this in my mail bag this morning

I have just taken a look at the new look - very nice. I really like the new logo.

Anyone thinking this is not genuine, should contact Kaltons solicitors of London.

wyldman100

8th September 2006, 08:38

Re: Layer - OK, OK, its called a typo. Anyway, it just enforces the point - you will get what you pay for.

PeteA

8th September 2006, 09:28

Is that really true wyldman

I paid a web designer to make me a bespoke website.

I got a poor site and a crappy logo, this led me to get another designer to sort out the site and I designed the logo myself.

Friends now say the site looks better, especially the logo

I am fully aware that the professional logo designers are well worth the money they charge, however the people under them, well I have my doubts, this is why I now offer a logo for £10.

redtiger

8th September 2006, 09:35

I have to agree with Wyldman to a degree, you may have PAID a web designer for a poor site Pete but if you paid him £100 you shouldn't have expected anything decent.

"Pay peanuts, get monkeys" does apply here, although I admit it's not always the case in the world, don't get me wrong I'm not saying anyone who charges lower than the average is 'cheap' or provides a lesser service, but you have to use your common sense.

Coding Monkey

8th September 2006, 09:42

"Pay peanuts, get monkeys"

:( :( :( :( :(

Mac Yeti

8th September 2006, 09:43

I paid a web designer to make me a bespoke website.
I got a poor site and a crappy logo, this led me to get another designer to sort out the site and I designed the logo myself.

That's the point I was trying to make, Pete. If there weren't all these people going around offering web design, logos etc when they don't really know what they're doing, then we wouldn't have this problem in the first place?

I think your logo does look better however to me it still screams amateur mainly because of the poor typography and placement. I'm also guessing that if you wanted to use it any other place than the web, for example on your business card, you could come unstuck unless you use a very helpful printer and ask the right questions.

Mac Yeti

8th September 2006, 09:44

Out of curiosity - is your newly designed site finished and live or are we still looking at the old one?

YEM

8th September 2006, 09:46

redtiger

8th September 2006, 09:49

PRECISELY! I didn't have the heart to say that Jilly lol...

Sorry Tom! :D didnt mean you of course ;)

Dawg

8th September 2006, 10:31

Sorry, backing up a bit, slightly OT,
Jonathan said:
It is not just spelling that has to be correct but the grammar

Umm, and the punctuation? (No full stop.) There was a case in Canada where a comma in the wrong place cost $29m!
The "I spell rite" claim could be a red rag to a bull...
That is OK if the client wants a lawyer that cannot spell!

(But I can't even spell my trading name, huh?):rolleyes:

wyldman100

8th September 2006, 10:42

The so called professional web designer you employed is probably much like yourself:- started off as an interest or hobby and then started offering a service and charging people.

It's just too easy to start a web design company, you can work from home with minimum costs and the industry is polluted with amateurs and hobbyists - even a huge portion of people that have qualifications or have been to university are still awful, but will still take your money.

I think that's why people are getting worked up about this. Every man and his dog are a web site or graphic designer these days.

PeteA

8th September 2006, 10:47

I don,t think my site will ever be finished, there always seems to be something to add.

I am involved in a few joint ventures that will mean expanding the business a little.

As for making business cards a good friend of mine is a graphic designer.

With the amount of logos I have been asked to design it appears the professionals out there have over priced themselves for what really is a simple task.

Coding Monkey

8th September 2006, 10:49

I think that's why people are getting worked up about this. Every man and his dog are a web site or graphic designer these days.

I actually employ chimps. Their toes give them a huge advantage over dogs.

PeteA

8th September 2006, 10:50

One difference is I explain exactly what I am able to do, or not.

The client only pays if happy

Finally it is just a hobby and not one I am interested in expanding, the offer of a logo for a tenner is simply for UKBF members or personal friends of mine.

Juvanescence

8th September 2006, 10:59

With the amount of logos I have been asked to design it appears the professionals out there have over priced themselves for what really is a simple task.

I don't think you truly grasp the whole process involved otherwise you would understand why we/they charge as much as they do.

I'm sorry to say but some of your responses in this thread are just trying to cause arguments.

If you want to charge £10 a logo thats up to you, but please do not insult the work that some of us do.

Thank you. :)

redtiger

8th September 2006, 11:07

I don't think you truly grasp the whole process involved otherwise you would understand why we/they charge as much as they do.

I'm sorry to say but some of your responses in this thread are just trying to cause arguments.

If you want to charge £10 a logo thats up to you, but please do not insult the work that some of us do.

Thank you. :)

Ahh you beat me to it! That's precisely it, we charge alot more than a tenner for a logo, but we also carry out a full business assessment (after all, you need to understand the business before you understand their branding requirements), run a full branding exercise working with several concepts and approachs, we test them on random subjects and measure the responses, give consultancy and help our clients launch the brand/rebrand.

Please don't compare our work to anything you do, downloading a bit of software and making a squiggle doesn't constitute a branding exercise, and that's what logos should all be about.

Bl**dy thread!! :D

Alex

Mac Yeti

8th September 2006, 11:08

One difference is I explain exactly what I am able to do, or not.

If you don't understand what you need to do then how can you explain what you can and can't do?

As for making business cards a good friend of mine is a graphic designer.

So what you are saying is that for £10 you can write a business name, randomly pick a font and colour, maybe add a few squiggles and save as a gif/jpg/png/insert web format here.

However if the business actually wants to use that logo for a business card/letterhead/comp slip/insert non web usage here, they actually have to go to a good friend that is a graphic designer and get them to do it properly?

PeteA

8th September 2006, 11:11

I have to disagree.

I agree with paying around £1000 for a nice website, but £500 for a logo, sorry I don't see it.

And by the look of my orders I am not alone

PeteA

8th September 2006, 11:15

I think your all taking it a bit too personally, if you were happy with your services and your rates, there would not be this anger.

The fact is you are generally doing a days work and charging between £300 -£1000 for a small business do you not see that as excessive?

This forum is generally used by small business owners, small business normally run on shoestring budgets.

In fact I will have a special offer.

Free logos for the next 7 days........... I am feeling generous.

PeteA

8th September 2006, 11:16

ANYONE REQUIRING A FREE LOGO

pm me for details

Dawg

8th September 2006, 11:17

Logo Ho! (http://www.fixedby.me.uk/) don't wear nickers so they can't get in a twist about this...
What a great thread, it deserves it's own logo!

redtiger

8th September 2006, 11:20

Pete it's not about being happy with pricing structures etc, it's about not being underminded, stigmatised and placed in the "fat cat" categories.

We spend months on doing a BRANDING EXERCISE, people will always want "a logo" but what many people don't realise is that a logo forms a brand, it affects the approach, induced emotions, profile and statuer of a business; a BRANDING CONSULTANCY will tell people this and take their business to the right level in the right way.

My 6 year old neice can do you a logo for a fiver, doesn't mean she knows anything about the effects of a logo on a business' profile does it.

Alex

Mac Yeti

8th September 2006, 11:24

I think your all taking it a bit too personally, if you were happy with your services and your rates, there would not be this anger.

I don't think anyone is angry, Pete, I'm actually enjoying the debate. Things are too often taken out of context when you can't hear or see someone when they're talking.

PeteA

8th September 2006, 11:25

So what about the people who cannot afford your prices?

These are the people I am offering my services to.

bwglaw

8th September 2006, 11:28

This thread is proving pointless

It is clear the issue here is between designer v. non-designer and yet some of the designers on here fail to respect client choice. Branding consultancies tend to be at the top end of the spectrum whereas 'have a go' designers are at the bottom end and both offering different approaches, costs and choice.

Clients are not so naive to see that paying £10 for a logo they won't get the same as a logo costing £500. It is the same if I paid a decorator £50 a room where a professional would charge £200. (I used to be a professional decorator by the way, full trained up (over 3 years) as a specialist and got paid the same as someone who trained on the job for 1 year!)

At the end of the day, the client chooses. No-one can convince a very small one-band business to pay £500+ for a logo, no matter how hard you try

PeteA

8th September 2006, 11:30

well said johnathon,

A voice of reason at last

Coding Monkey

8th September 2006, 11:31

And by the look of my orders I am not alone

But how many of these have a budget of £500 for a logo in the first place? That does not mean they find it excessive, purely that they don't have a budgte for it. I can't afford a 5 bedroom house, but I don't consider the cost of one excessive. The argument is almost circular, in that you go from saying you're aiming at the people who can't afford to spend that much, with no one at all responding and saying they should, to you saying that spending high amounts is a rip-off, thus the debate goes on and on.

bwglaw

8th September 2006, 11:32

Lets say PeteA clients are the micro-business, whereas the rest of you your clients are SME's ;)

Mac Yeti

8th September 2006, 11:33

So what about the people who cannot afford your prices?

I can't remember the last time I pitched for logo work on this forum or any other forums.

In fact, I don't think I have done any logos for anyone here, apart from a free one I did to help Buzz out because he was a friend of Andy's.

I come on this forum because there are lots of nice people here with whom I have made friends, I genuinely enjoy the discussions, I learn a lot and occasionally like to feel I've helped people out.

PeteA

8th September 2006, 11:34

ok

cards on the table

for the professional logo desiners

1. what is your average price?

2. Do you provide discount to small business owners?

3. How long does does the logo design process take you?

come on guys, answer honeslty!!!

FunkyBears

8th September 2006, 12:43

I think Nike was $38, Virgin was on a discarded piece of paper, Jersey Tourism
rebranding consultation and Logo so far £170,000! This is not directed at any forum members but there is a lot of snobbery in this industry. I once paid £800 for a 'Hand Drawn Logo' that I found out was done by the office junior adapting a Font style.

PeteA

8th September 2006, 12:48

It went quiet in the desiger corner after the questions I raised.

Hedgehog Toys

8th September 2006, 12:50

My logo was designed by a member of this forum and I think it's excellent. Oh and by the way...it didn't cost me £500. :)

On a slight tangent, I am a professional architectural technologist however people who want a house designing still turn to an 'Architect' to do the work.
Architectural technologists / technicians do the same work but at a much cheaper rate.

My neighbour had a simple kitchen extension done by an architect, it cost her £1100 in design fees. When I told her I could have done it for £250, she was very peeved.

The point I am making is that although the prices may be higher, this does not necessarily mean the job is better.

Mac Yeti

8th September 2006, 12:55

This is not directed at any forum members but there is a lot of snobbery in this industry.

I don't think snobbery is the right word, but I can see how it is portrayed as such. I think it's more a case of designers not wanting their work to be devalued by people that don't fully understand design.

Hedgehog Toys

8th September 2006, 13:00

Design in my profession is , functional and aesthetically pleasing. :)

PeteA

8th September 2006, 13:02

Looks like this one needs re-posting

ok

cards on the table

for the professional logo desiners

1. what is your average price?

2. Do you provide discount to small business owners?

3. How long does does the logo design process take you?

come on guys, answer honeslty!!!

Cornish Steve

8th September 2006, 13:07

Pete,

If a competitor asked you to publish your prices and your business practices in a public forum (not just information related to a hobby), would you do so? Of course not. In business, there are things we reveal only when necessary. I don't think anyone's trying to hide behind a screen, but you can't expect them to undermine their business.

Mac Yeti

8th September 2006, 13:11

Looks like this one needs re-posting

I assume you are talking to me since I think I have been the only one to post since. I thought I had already answered the question.

I said I didn't pitch for logo work on this forum or any other. However, if you can include the work I did for Buzz, and the few others I've helped out so far I'm on an average price of £0.

Who'd have thought it, eh? I'm actually cheaper than you, Pete :)

PeteA

8th September 2006, 13:20

got to respect that yeti......

And there is the answer to this whole debate, some people come here to help out other small business owners and some hmmmm...well don't.

Cornish Steve

8th September 2006, 13:24

It's not as simple as that. For some, this kind of work is a hobby - so you feel able to help people out. For others, it's their livelihood. To stay in business, you can't dish out favours all the time. There's a difference.

Eagle

8th September 2006, 13:26

It went quiet in the desiger corner after the questions I raised.
It's only been a little while. :eek:

Pete, by all means charge £10. I've already stated that what you're doing is misguided and, worse, potentially damaging to a client's marketing efforts. But please, crack on... I don't want your type of clients anyway. You'll soon get sick of it and increase your prices when you get awkward clients (and you will ;)).

I'm convinced now that your overriding intent in this thread is to get the professional designers' backs-up. Your opening gambit here was that you bought a 'good software package' and hey-presto, you can now design logos. You can't! (yet). You do not have the training or experience. Why not offer your services in the Offers section of UKBF where we will not add comment?

The inferrence that it's 'easy to design logos' and 'anyone can do it' is potentially very damaging to our industry - especially when mentioned on a business forum where people seek solid, professional advice on branding issues. Not to mention the potential damage to a client and their business which I've already mentioned.

So, can you see why we're kinda defensive?

ok

cards on the table

for the professional logo desiners

1. what is your average price?

As my pricing is commercial-in-confidence, I won't answer that here. Besides, design projecst have a myriad of factors which all have a bearing on price. Most projects are tailored to the client's individual needs and, yes, sometimes their budget too. :)

It might interest people to know that the industry recommended guideline price (and this is for start-ups alone) is between £500 and £1500 (figures roughly translated from GAG, USA and already several years out of date...)

2. Do you provide discount to small business owners?

No, but see above about 'tailoring'. Why would I provide 'discount'? Is designing for a small business different from a large one? At the opposite end of the scale, if a well-known entity, let's say "Nochex" ;) came to me asking for logo design, why should I charge them more for design than a small business owner? The process is exactly the same and charging more based alone on the fact that they area big company would be tempting of course but extremely unethical.

3. How long does does the logo design process take you?

On average, two to four weeks but quite often in the realm of months.

Cool? :)

redtiger

8th September 2006, 13:36

This thread is giving me a headache ;)

Just as Steve stated, we're not going to devulge confidential information like our average prices etc because it would indeed be undermining the privacy of our business matters.

By all means do logo design, do website design, do tree-stump-removal and lampshade development, make mango juice and colour-in white post it notes and sell them on with a mark up, but don't challenge the people that provide professional services that help businesses truly achieve their aims just because you've "got a bit of software".

Alex

P.S.
I'm dying for that one client to ask for 45 revisions of the same concept :D

PeteA

8th September 2006, 13:37

Months.........lol

If I went to a proper logo designer and he said it will take a month I would look elsewhere regardless of the costs.

We are talking about logos here for start up online ventures here, not BA or virgin.

I think the problem is you are applying your trade as if you were dealing with corporations not genuine people venturing into the online world.

<< Moderated Content >>

I wish I could design top quality logos, because I would still charge a tenner.

Eagle

8th September 2006, 13:49

Months.........lol

If I went to a proper logo designer and he said it will take a month I would look elsewhere regardless of the costs.
Because yu do not understand what's involved.

We are talking about logos here for start up online ventures here, not BA or virgin.
Refer to industry guideline pricing as I mentioned before. More to the point, for a business start-up it is monumentally important to get it right, first time. A blue-chip company could easily recover from a balsed-up logo project as has been demonstrated many times. A start-up probably couldn't.

I think the problem is you are applying your trade as if you were dealing with corporations not genuine people venturing into the online world.
The process is the same for either. Again, you're demonstrating, quite eloquently in fact, that you don't know what you're talking about.

This thread has shown that some people are simply here to fleece people.

That's an unfounded and pretty desperate comment.

I wish I could design top quality logos, because I would still charge a tenner.

We'll see. :)

Pete. Visit www.landor.com, the world leader in branding.

Drop them a line and ask them how much they charge. (They probably won't even entertain you as a client). Tell them that they're fleecing their clients at $xx,xxx+ a pop.

Cornish Steve

8th September 2006, 14:22

You can imagine this as a real life situation with the mods walking past occassionaly opening the door and us all turning round to smile, then hearing the footsteps walk away and every one jumps back with their hands on each others throats.

Made me chuckle to think that anyway, I appreciate I watch too many cartoons.
That's funny. In turn, your comments made me think of the two old ladies at Fawlty Towers. They complain like crazy about the food, but when Mr. Fawlty approaches them, everything's just hunkydory. :)