A1 use - reheating food

[mark1980]

Can anyone clarify the allowances to 'reheat' food in an A1 premises. I intend to start a business serving coffee and cold sandwiches but would also like to offer paninis, soup and perhaps use a bake off oven. I've found a property but need to clarify this first. Hoped the wealth of knowledge here would give an impression of what to expect...

Where do most authorities stand with this? Am I correct in thinking Subway operate on A1 and use similar practices?

Thanks in advance,
Mark

[GeorgeStrait]

You need A3 or A5. A3 if they will be eating in.

[mark1980]

I'm not providing facilities for people to eat in - take out only.

I can see a bake off oven being an issue and something I would do without. But with regard to the panini grill and being able to warm any pre-cooked food using a microwave or other - can this still be passed off as A1? I believe there are business' doing similar?

[GeorgeStrait]

I'm not providing facilities for people to eat in - take out only.

I can see a bake off oven being an issue and something I would do without. But with regard to the panini grill and being able to warm any pre-cooked food using a microwave or other - can this still be passed off as A1? I believe there are business' doing similar?

In that case A5, no way round it I'm afraid if your selling hot food. Have a word with you local planning dept' and see what the chances of change of use being granted would be. May as well enquire as to A3 as well as this would cover you eating out sales, but also give you more options in the future.

[mark1980]

Rather confused. I thought (especially from trawling through the web, this site and looking over some planning applications) that A1 was acceptable should food be 'warmed' and not served 'hot' ?

[GeorgeStrait]

Rather confused. I thought (especially from trawling through the web, this site and looking over some planning applications) that A1 was acceptable should food be 'warmed' and not served 'hot' ?

As soon as you sell a coffee or tea you need A5, if that person drinks it on the premises you need A3. No way round it, sorry if it's not what you want to hear but that's the rules.

If you are still unsure speak to you local planning office :)

[mhall]

Subway operate on A1 and use similar practices?



Can any Subway franchisees confirm this? It's news to me if they do and opens up a whole can or worms. I know some Councils work on some strange guidelines but...

[GeorgeStrait]

I don't know about Subway, but Costa and Starbucks will both open in A1 and apply for retrospective planning, usually they get it.

Now would an independent want to take this risk? I certainly wouldn't, not for the sake of a few months wait for a planning application to be decided.

[mark1980]

There is clearly some grey area here;

<CODE>
ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=219762 </CODE>

[GeorgeStrait]

There is clearly some grey area here;

<CODE>
ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=219762 </CODE>

That link doesn't work.

Maybe just keep asking the question until you get the answer you want, rather than one that's correct!

[mark1980]

The link was as follows but I cannot post it directly as I haven't made 15 posts yet (in the process I seem to have pasted the wrong link). I will try again here:

propertyweek.com/professional/a1-planning-permission/3091596.article

I'm not looking for an answer that doesn't exist, more so the general consensus on a topic that is not clear. Thank you for your help so far though.

[GeorgeStrait]

Well if you want to be legal and no worries over being closed down by the council you simply have to apply for the correct usage - a quick phone call to you planning officer will confirm what I have said.

Or you could wing it, and hope for the best.

If 1,000 people say "you'll probably be ok" would you really proceed?

[Merchant UK]

What Is A1 Planning Usage? Shops

A1 is use for all or any of the following purposes:
(a) for the retail sale of goods other than hot food,

(b) as a post office,

(c) for the sale of tickets or as a travel agency,

(d) for the sale of sandwiches or other cold food for consumption off the premises,

(e) for hairdressing,

(f) for the direction of funerals,

(g) for the display of goods for sale,

(h) for the hiring out of domestic or personal goods or articles,

(i) for the reception of goods to be washed, cleaned or repaired,

(j) where the sale, display or service is to visiting members of the public.

(k) as an internet café; where the primary purpose of the premises is to provide facilities for enabling members of the public to access the internet

What Is A2 Planning Usage? Financial And Professional Services

A2 is use for the provision of:

(a) financial services, or

(b) professional services (other than health or medical services), or

(c) any other services (including use as a betting office) which it is appropriate to provide in a shopping area, where the services are provided principally to visiting members of the public.

What Is A3 planning Usage? Restaurants and Cafes

A3 is use for the sale of food or drink for consumption on the premises or of hot food for consumption off the premises.

What Is A4 planning Usage? Drinking Establishments

A4 is use as a public house, wine-bar or other drinking establishment

What Is A5 planning Usage?Hot food takeaways

A5 is use for the sale of hot food for consumption off the premises

[kulture]

The only real answer, as already said, is to phone your local council and talk to the planning officer. They are there to help. They will be the ones who decide what consent you need for what you plan. Whether A1,3 or 5 or whatever, they decide! Opinions on forums do not matter really. If they say you can get away with A1 then you can. If however they say you need A3 or A5 then they can also tell you the likelihood of you getting it. All done in one or two simple phone calls.

[Merchant UK]

Can anyone clarify the allowances to 'reheat' food in an A1 premises. I intend to start a business serving coffee and cold sandwiches but would also like to offer paninis, soup and perhaps use a bake off oven. I've found a property but need to clarify this first. Hoped the wealth of knowledge here would give an impression of what to expect...

Where do most authorities stand with this? Am I correct in thinking Subway operate on A1 and use similar practices?

Thanks in advance,
Mark

Hi Mark no your not correct with subway having A1 use, as they also sell Hot Food for which you need an A3 class. Which is the norm for resturants and cafes.

As an Experianced member George, has hit the nail on the head its either A3 or A5 use, Best heed to his advice and contact planning at the council :cool:

[mark1980]

I spoke to the planning office who informed me that, providing the hot food and drink was ancillary to the main purpose of the business (ie. < 25% of product mix), a change of use from A1 would not be needed. Lesson learnt, should have just done this first!

I do, however, appreciate the replies and advice. Thank you

[kulture]

It is always interesting to hear how different planning officers in different parts of the country interpret the same law. In your shoes, I would be tempted to get A3 use anyway just in case the planning officer gets a nudge from a local councillor who thinks differently.

[GeorgeStrait]

Oh, I took it that he would need A3 or A5 use, if they are only allowing less than 25% it's not going to cover his paninies, soup, oven items, tea and coffee - well I wouldn't have thought so anyway. Wouldn't this totally stifle any growth potential?

I'll agree with Kulture as well, go by the book, when this planning officer leaves his replacement might not be so flexible.

[Merchant UK]

Oh, I took it that he would need A3 or A5 use, if they are only allowing less than 25% it's not going to cover his paninies, soup, oven items, tea and coffee - well I wouldn't have thought so anyway. Wouldn't this totally stifle any growth potential?

I'll agree with Kulture as well, go by the book, when this planning officer leaves his replacement might not be so flexible.

me too, What happens in the winter and colder months when customers want hot food more as opposed to Cold?? Can you say to your customers "Sorry, we cant serve any more hot food this year, as we've reached our 25% limit"

best to cover yourself as george says, if you think the business will expand into more hot food & drinks

[thebusiness]

Haha!! Glad George got corrected in the end - know-all!!

Mark, it's exactly the same in Cornwall - as long as the hot food is ancillary to the main purpose of the business, i.e. sandwichs, cakes, etc... then A1 is fine. Actually, you can even have a small area for eating in, as long as most of your sales are consumed off the premises. As for take away tea and coffee - you can sell as much as that as you like on A1, it's the hot food that is the determining factor.

All the best.

[Draugen]

Can any Subway franchisees confirm this?

Just stumbled accross this thread. I imagine you already have an answer by now, but if not I can confirm that Subway stores operate under A1 usage.

http://www.subway.co.uk/business/property/default.aspx

[Forum Retail]

Pretty certain lots of coffee shops, Nero, AMG, Costa operate on A1
Certainly did when i was installing tills for them a few years back.

[Dave Kinnel]

Pretty certain lots of coffee shops, Nero, AMG, Costa operate on A1
Certainly did when i was installing tills for them a few years back.

Of course they don't otherwise their outlets would be closed, they don't have special dispensation.

They do sometimes open in A1 and apply for retrospective change of use, they don't always get it though and have to close. More often they apply for planning before and don't get it and don't take on the unit, and more often than that they get units that already have A3 consent.

Forum Retail, that was terrible advice to give and if it was taken by someone new to retail could ruin them before they even opened.

[Forum Retail]

Of course they don't otherwise their outlets would be closed, they don't have special dispensation.

They do sometimes open in A1 and apply for retrospective change of use, they don't always get it though and have to close. More often they apply for planning before and don't get it and don't take on the unit, and more often than that they get units that already have A3 consent.

Forum Retail, that was terrible advice to give and if it was taken by someone new to retail could ruin them before they even opened.


There was no advice, just a statement and yes they did
this was given to an earlier answer on A1 and all of them offered Free interenet.
(k) as an internet café; where the primary purpose of the premises is to provide facilities for enabling members of the public to access the internet

[Dave Kinnel]

There was no advice, just a statement and yes they did
this was given to an earlier answer on A1 and all of them offered Free interenet.
(k) as an internet café; where the primary purpose of the premises is to provide facilities for enabling members of the public to access the internet

If it was a statement it was a very wrong and incorrect one, and if a new business took that statement as fact could very well end up without a business before they even opened.

How many internet Cafe's did Costa, Starbucks, Nero and AMG (who??) actually have, and did their internet sales amount more than four times their coffee sales?

To anyone who may read this and think Forum Retail is correct may I suggest you ignore this thread 100% and speak to your local planning dept' about the specific unit you are interested in, or even just ask them the general question about what they will allow in A1. I guarantee it'll save you a lot of money and stress.

[Flying Hippy]

My family deals with restaurants and licensing in London. They told me of a case involving Starbuck. In Blackheath they are not allowed to reheat or heat pannini's as the use for the shop is A1 and they were not granted permission.
This was a little while ago but they still do not sell heated food.

[Draugen]

Of course they don't otherwise their outlets would be closed, they don't have special dispensation.

They do sometimes open in A1 and apply for retrospective change of use, they don't always get it though and have to close. More often they apply for planning before and don't get it and don't take on the unit, and more often than that they get units that already have A3 consent.

I'm certain there are quite a number of coffee shops with only A1 consent, although I agree most will be A3 or mixed A1/A3. It will vary depending on the location, seating arrangements and local authority.

You're definitely right about some of the chains applying for restrospective change use though. A quick Google reveals an awful lot of this going on!

This short article sums up coffee shop planning consent briefly, but well. http://www.propertyweek.com/professional/a1-planning-permission/3091596.article

I trade as Subway and have only ever had A1 consent (in common with most franchisees), as although we offer the facility to eat in, our primary business is takeaway sandwiches.

[markit]

I realise that time has moved on since this topic was discussed but for anyone, like me, who came across it seeking advice I think it is useful to know this:

Planning is not a science. In my experience as property owner and retail business operator, I have had several applications for changes of use go either way in almost identical circumstances. What a planning enforcement officer in Cornwall may overlook, another in Yorkshire may consider a blatant mis-use of premises. Large franchise/multiple operators have time and resource to retrospectively get the changes of use they require to comply. Whilst I disagree with contributors who say "nope, you need change of use" for an independent to run the risk of come up against a zealous, work-seeking planning officer is, to my mind, unwise.

Even with the same application I have had a thumbs up from one officer only to get a refusal from another in the same department! Sadly the Planning System has become a minefield, best navigated with the help of a Planning Consultant ...most of whom are ex-planners. If you think that's "jobs for the boys", bite your tongue and go with it. Your consolation is that many, many property professionals agree.

MW