Counter Claim

[mrtaxpayer]

Hi All,
In relation to my previous thread those useless accountant are now pursuing me with a small claim.

poc:
Outstanding amount relating to monthly service Aug09 to jan10.

When they failed to file my annual return the company was fined and I immediately disengaged from them. I requested them to return all docs/paperwork which they returned a week after filing deadline passed giving me only 15 working days to find a new accountant and file return.

I informed them that all fees would be recovered from the bank; they are responsible for any fines. And I filed a claim with he bank to recover all fees paid to them.

I haven’t heard form them until a few weeks ago they emailed saying I owe them monthly fees etc.
Now I have a county court claim.

There monthly fees are supposed to cover filing returns, vat pay slips etc a full managed service,
I have never received a pay slip they never filed a vat return and they failed the do the annual return.

They filed a p11d which was returned to me incomplete by IR, missing information.
They filed a personal tax return but did not request a refunds and it took k me a month to get a tax rebate.


I want to counter claim for the huge amount of stress they caused me, also damage to the business for late filing (some business treat your as a high risk if you are late filing. the company I work for now does to all its suppliers)

Any advice would be greatly appreciated, for amount i can claim and how to present it.

Mr Taxpayer

[mrtaxpayer]

Link to previous thread

h t t p :// w w w . ukbusinessforums . co . uk / forums / showthread . php?t=142207

[MyAccountantOnline]

Having had a very quick scan of your previous post would it not be best to try and discuss the matter with your former accountants amicably rather than get involved in court action? All this is going to do is to become stressful, costly and take up a lot of your time with no guarantee of the outcome you probably want.

I think you'll find that your letter of engagement will state that your accountants arent responsible for any late filing penalties/fines - most do.

I suspect the very best thing you can do is to move forward get yourself a good accountant, work closely with them, and make sure you give them information promptly when they ask for it so that your not up against deadlines in future. To be honest leaving things so late isnt necessary and creates a lot of stress for all involved.

Good luck in whatever option you choose.

[elainec100@cheapaccounting]

From memory I think you have changed accountants quite often.

When you move to a new accountant:

- check the terms of business
- agree a letter of engagement so you know what is included, what you have to do and what the fee will be
- see and understand their complaints procedure
- if they are a member of a professional body, the complaint can be referred onto them

Do you have the above for the accountant that you have this dispute with?

Have you raised a formal complaint?

What were their duties?

What did they fail at?

Without this info it is impossible to give a view on how you should proceed.

[mrtaxpayer]

Nicola J,
I have no idea what you mean moving forward and get another accountant you did not read or understand my email. I took on a new accountant in Feb. they are great! This email is about a firm I instructed for a full package under a monthly fee and they did little.

No wage slips, no vat, failed to correctly file a p11d, filed a personal tax return with missing info and did not file/complete an annual return at which point I asked them to return all my docs and disengaged. And I received my paperwork back after the CO deadline and was fined 150 leaving 3 weeks to get a new accountant which I did. I then informed the useless ones I would be recovering all the fees paid to them and I did they said nothing for 7 months which I take as acceptance now they are pursuing it with a county court claim.

Now they want 6 months of fees for doing next to nothing a p11d and personal tax return is not worth 700 the deal was approx 1000 for a year worth of accounting. Everything an ltd company needs to file and comply with.
I never received and monthly info from them no wage slip no tax or ni deductions , nothing just 2 forms above and they are taking me to court, I am not taking them to court so I want to file a decent counter claim.

Cheers

[elainec100@cheapaccounting]

I want to file a decent counter claim.

Cheers


for what?

As I said:

- check the terms of business
- agree a letter of engagement so you know what is included, what you have to do and what the fee will be
- see and understand their complaints procedure
- if they are a member of a professional body, the complaint can be referred onto them

Do you have the above for the accountant that you have this dispute with?

Have you raised a formal complaint?

What were their duties?

What did they fail at?

Without this info it is impossible to give a view on how you should proceed.

[mrtaxpayer]

Hi elainec100 (http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/member.php?u=4933),
you raised useful questions and I am researching the answers now.
I did file a complaint but it wasn’t responded to.

A counter claim for getting another accountant to do the job they were paid to do and didn’t do, plus anything else I can claim for it cost me a lot I spent 3 weeks finding another accountant, 150 fine. Etc was a very stress full month Feb.! I was in Feb. with no account paid 700 and there best offer was we can’t do it, do you want to disengage.

I will reply with the answers when I have re read the entire contract, but it was a full comprehensive package i.e. they do everything.

Cheers

[MyAccountantOnline]

Nicola J,
I have no idea what you mean moving forward and get another accountant you did not read or understand my email. I took on a new accountant in Feb. they are great! This email is about a firm I instructed for a full package under a monthly fee and they did little.

No wage slips, no vat, failed to correctly file a p11d, filed a personal tax return with missing info and did not file/complete an annual return at which point I asked them to return all my docs and disengaged. And I received my paperwork back after the CO deadline and was fined 150 leaving 3 weeks to get a new accountant which I did. I then informed the useless ones I would be recovering all the fees paid to them and I did they said nothing for 7 months which I take as acceptance now they are pursuing it with a county court claim.

Now they want 6 months of fees for doing next to nothing a p11d and personal tax return is not worth 700 the deal was approx 1000 for a year worth of accounting. Everything an ltd company needs to file and comply with.
I never received and monthly info from them no wage slip no tax or ni deductions , nothing just 2 forms above and they are taking me to court, I am not taking them to court so I want to file a decent counter claim.

Cheers

No I didn't realise you had appointed another new accountant - I do hope all gets resolved and you continue to get on well with the new accountant.

[Batra Ventures UK Limited]

No offense to accountants, Accountants can be a big pain at times really. I have changed it once and understand how frustating it is.

Good luck with new ones.

[Toni Toni]

Yes, I support that. ;)

[mrtaxpayer]

Hope everyone has had a good bank holiday Here is a summary of their offer/package. Part of the agreement details and complaint procedure.

we offer a fixed fee comprehensive service for £75 plus VAT per month (fixed until March 2010). For the monthly fee we would deal with all HMRC and Companies House matters on your behalf, complete your PAYE returns including calculation of wages, complete tax returns for you and one other person, prepare your VAT returns and prepare your final year end accounts. We are also always available if you have any questions and there is no fee involved for further general advice, mortgage references, IR35 contract reviews, registered office service or general HMRC enquiries.

Here is some of the terms

These terms should be read in conjunction with the general terms in force and upon which all professional services are
provided, and which together, form the Terms of Engagement. These terms are to be effective immediately they are signed
and shall replace any previous terms and conditions that applied to the provision of these services.

Service
We are responsible for providing the fixed price monthly accounting service which includes the following.

Wages and PAYE
• Monthly wage summaries for up to two employees including the net wages payable and income tax and national
insurance deductions payable. Issued in April and amended on receipt of salary or tax code changes.
• Annual PAYE returns forms P35 including forms P14, P60 and P11D / P11Db.
• General assistance with PAYE compliance visits • General PAYE advice and dealing with routine correspondence
• Tax code changes
• Over and underpayment notifications
• SMP / SSP calculations
• NIC enquiries and correspondence

IR35 Deemed salary provisions - if appropriate
• IR35 deemed salary calculation for each fiscal year
• Supplementary P35 completion and submission where necessary
• IR35 contract assessment (see below*)
• General assistance with IR35 status enquiries
• Routine advice on the provisions of IR35 and dealing with routine correspondence

VAT
• Changes in VAT registration arrangements
• Completion of VAT Returns from accounting information received
• General assistance with VAT compliance visits
• General VAT advice and dealing with routine correspondence
• Flat rate scheme assessments and applications

Corporation Tax
• Computations based on financial statements
• Completion of CT600
• Submission of financial statements and CT600
• Correspondence on agreement of liabilities
• Notification of amounts payable
• General corporation tax advice and dealing with routine correspondence
• General tax planning issues in relation to a single accounting period

Financial Statements
• Preparation, based on accounting information, of the company's financial statements in accordance with regulations and professional standards in force
• Submission to the directors for approval
• Submission to Companies House
• Preparation of suitable directors or shareholders resolutions
• Assistance with the determination of profits available for distribution as dividends
• Inclusion of IR35 deemed salaries where appropriate.

Companies House
• Annual Returns form 363 (excluding filing fees)
• Minutes and resolutions
• Share issues
• Notifications of changes in circumstances concerning the officers and the company
• Basic share structures

Interest, surcharges and penalties
• Dealing with such issues and advising on appropriate action and payment where necessary.
• We are NOT responsible for any interest, surcharges or penalties.

Other matters
• Provision of mortgage reference letters
• Provision of tenant reference letters
• Unlimited telephone advice, during normal office hours, concerning issues related to the Service
Specific exclusions
• New company formation
• Company closure procedures
• Strategic corporate planning
• Tax planning covering more than one year
• Tax or other enquiries covering more than one accounting or fiscal year
• Filing fees, duties or any other costs arising from the submission of documents or returns
• Business activities separate or additional to freelance contract work through the business

*The intermediaries' legislation and completion of status
reviews (IR35 assessments)
Where appropriate and from time to time you may ask us to consider the basis upon which you provide professional services and the working relationship that exists between you the worker and the ultimate end client and to report to you our considered opinion on the degree of risk that the provisions of the intermediaries legislation will apply and that deemed salary calculations will be required./email access to




Complaint procedure

Should you find that you must raise a complaint you should in the first instance raise the matter with your principle contact or
team Leader. If your complaint is not then dealt with to your complete satisfaction you should then contact the Managing
Director of ###, who will undertake a full impartial review of the facts on your behalf.
We undertake to investigate and deal with every complaint openly, promptly and to keep you fully informed at each stage
of that process together with the conclusion reached. If we do not address your complaint to your satisfaction you
may take up the matter with the Regulatory bodies that operate an independent complaints procedure.

Regulatory Bodies
We align ourselves and the services that we offer to the ethical rules and professional standards of conduct of both the
Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales (ICAEW), the Association of Chartered Certified Accountants
(ACCA) and Professional Passport.

Audit related services
### is not regulated to provide statutory or other audit related services accordingly such professional services are
conducted on its behalf by ### (Registered Auditor) "###" operated by a director and member of ### who is personally
regulated as a Registered Auditor and provides such services through that company. For professional indemnity purposes
you will be required to agree to specific terms of engagement with ### although all audit fees will be charged by ### and
you hereby consent to these amounts being retained by us.

[mrtaxpayer]

To summarise, I paid 7 months fees (605.63). They delivered 1 p11d (returned to me by IR incomplete), 1 personal tax return missing the tax rebate details I had 2k sitting in the tax office not claimed it took me March to recover it... They could not complete the annual return.
I request return of all docs as they AR deadline has passed (they had docs from September 5 months) and they ask if I want to disengage? I moved to another accountant who completed annual return in 1 week. I reclaim all fees through the bank DD guarantee, I told them and they did not respond for 6 months and have now issued a claim for 605.63+interest.
Cheers

[elainec100@cheapaccounting]

so did you use their well defined complaints procedure?

[mrtaxpayer]

I did not escalate it at the time as I was busy finding a new accountant.
But the person I would of raised it too was texting me a few weeks ago. I raised my issues and they basically ignored the issue and said you still owe the money. I explained that if you can’t deliver the accounts you won’t get paid and also explained the fine. They didn’t care, another person started to text me saying I still owe the money so I explained it all again they have never addressed the failings and now I have the claim

So if you class them texting me as raising a complaint through there well defined process then yes I have but it feels like dealing with a child who ignores your complaint.

How many company deals with a complaint by texting you? Ignoring your issues and then issuing court proceedings

cheers

[elainec100@cheapaccounting]

With respect I am failing to see why you are not expending your efforts here on playing this out rather than on following their clearly defined complaints procedure including the right to escalate to their professional bodies.

What outcome to you want to achieve?

Using text for such an issue is not correct - on both parts.

Do this formally, in writing following the procedure outlined.

[mrtaxpayer]

Hi Elaine,
The outcome I want to achieve now is deal with the CC claim. Whatever options exist I still have to respond to the county court! I can deal with that for now.

So are you suggesting I complain to the Regulatory bodies that operate an independent complaints procedure, or take it up with the managing director
or both?

[elainec100@cheapaccounting]

I am saying that you follow their complaints procedure - starting with putting your issues in writing to the person who dealt with your accounts, then if not satisfied the MD, then the professional body.

I really can't see why you are spending more time & money on this when you haven't even done this.

But good luck with your court case.

[E Storey]

Specific exclusions

• Filing fees, duties or any other costs arising from the submission of documents or returns


Seems pretty clear to me..... why do you seem to think the contract stated they were liable for these fees?

EDIT: sorry that's filing fees not fines - my bad!

[Williams lester]

Specific exclusions

• Filing fees, duties or any other costs arising from the submission of documents or returns


Seems pretty clear to me..... why do you seem to think the contract stated they were liable for these fees?

EDIT: sorry that's filing fees not fines - my bad!

I think this is the bit you were thinking of;

Interest, surcharges and penalties
• Dealing with such issues and advising on appropriate action and payment where necessary.
• We are NOT responsible for any interest, surcharges or penalties.

[E Storey]

I think most accountants do have a "if we mess up - it's not our fault" clause.

But there would be an argument as to if the necessary figures were provided to them in a reasonable time and with a reasonable level of completeness, which none of us here can judge from the OP.

[Philip Hoyle]

So are you suggesting I complain to the Regulatory bodies that operate an independent complaints procedure, or take it up with the managing director
or both?

Do you know which, if any, professional body they are regulated by? If they're not regulated by a professional body, then you've no-one to complain to - you may have used an unqualified/unregulated firm in which case your only recourse is through the courts. The extract of their engagement letter you provided says that they "allign" themselves with the ICAEW and ACCA - that doesn't mean they're regulated by either and if they're not members of either of those bodies, then they won't help you.

[elainec100@cheapaccounting]

Do you know which, if any, professional body they are regulated by? If they're not regulated by a professional body, then you've no-one to complain to - you may have used an unqualified/unregulated firm in which case your only recourse is through the courts. The extract of their engagement letter you provided says that they "allign" themselves with the ICAEW and ACCA - that doesn't mean they're regulated by either and if they're not members of either of those bodies, then they won't help you.

He covered this in his detailed posts:

Complaint procedure

Should you find that you must raise a complaint you should in the first instance raise the matter with your principle contact or
team Leader. If your complaint is not then dealt with to your complete satisfaction you should then contact the Managing
Director of ###, who will undertake a full impartial review of the facts on your behalf.
We undertake to investigate and deal with every complaint openly, promptly and to keep you fully informed at each stage
of that process together with the conclusion reached. If we do not address your complaint to your satisfaction you
may take up the matter with the Regulatory bodies that operate an independent complaints procedure.

Regulatory Bodies
We align ourselves and the services that we offer to the ethical rules and professional standards of conduct of both the
Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales (ICAEW), the Association of Chartered Certified Accountants
(ACCA) and Professional Passport.

[bbbbb]

He covered this in his detailed posts:

Complaint procedure

....you may take up the matter with the Regulatory bodies that operate an independent complaints procedure.

Regulatory Bodies
We align ourselves and the services that we offer to the ethical rules and professional standards of conduct of both the
Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales (ICAEW), the Association of Chartered Certified Accountants
(ACCA) and Professional Passport.

Yes but if they're not members they won't get involved in any dispute. Surely he does need to find out of which professional body. if any, they are a member.

[elainec100@cheapaccounting]

Oh yes - just re-read that properly.

So they are not necessarily members and maybe not even qualified accountants.

Oh well - no chance then :rolleyes::rolleyes:

[mrtaxpayer]

Hi All some interesting points raised, I cant see a complaint going anywhere as they ignored it and I have spoken to 3 employees none of them acknowledged they failed in 'the monthly service' and instead they rely on saying information was supplied late. Which is not true.

I have been through the emails and the info was sent recorded delivery end of September 09. I chased them in December. they replied saying quote 'Regarding your accounts there are a couple of queries I have so will be emailing you shortly about these.'

then 4 questions about payments which were answered the next day. Also This email

'The accounts for the year ended 31 March 2009 have now been drafted based on the information we currently have. These accounts show a provisional corporation tax liability of £xxx which is payable by 1 January 2010. We would advise paying this estimate as interest accrues on tax paid late. Once we have received a reply to our queries previously sent we will then finalise the accounts and send to you for your approval and signature.'

They had this reply above, but 2 days before end of working week for filing annual return in January wed or thur 28th they then phone me saying they can’t do it, they haven’t received info from previous accountant... Now this is the first I hear that they have requested info from previous accountants and that they are now using this as a reason to not be liable for fines etc and its my fault.

They fail to submit the accounts, ask me if I want to disengage and don’t return my paperwork until the following weekend 5 th or 6th February and that’s where this thread begins with a County court claim, where their only focus is their fees!

Mrtaxpayer