The role of an SEO

[herodigital]

Hi guys

As an SEO, I wondered what exactly you offer and where your services end. Of course, our core responsibility is to get clients ranking in search engines, but what happens when this is achieved and the client is still not making money? Do you offer conversion optimisation? Do you include this in your price perhaps? I have been in this situation a couple of times and it has never been financially viable for the client to spend £X on SEO + £X on conversion optimisation and design tweaks.

What are your thoughts on this?

[MASSEY]

Its a good question. If i was an seo and seo'd someones site to #1 and they made no doe, i would feel guilty myself.

[herodigital]

Its a good question. If i was an seo and seo'd someones site to #1 and they made no doe, i would feel guilty myself.

it is a tricky one, i find myself putting in extra hours outside of the contract to try and build their overall link profile stronger, and that doesn't make good business practice. one (sort of) solution would be suggesting the client has a word with the original designer, but that's just passing the book.

[terryuk]

If they don't make any money, it's probably down to bad keyword selection or a poor idea/product..

It might not be viable for them to go with conversion optimisation because there site is not that type or there isn't nothing to try and convert, you can increase a sites conversion by 300 fold and I'm sure they wouldn't be complaining then... at the end of the day, they would only thank you if they made millions off it, nothing more.. if that.

I would stick to what you say you'd do, I have been a bit lenient in the past and got me no where.

[Tin]

our core responsibility is to get clients ranking in search engines, but what happens when this is achieved and the client is still not making money?

From where I stand, optimisation is a holistic approach, there is absolutely no point in the client spending money or us spending the time seoing a site if the conversion is not there so it would be unethical to take on a job where there was little chance of a decent ROI for the client.

If they don't make any money, it's probably down to bad keyword selection or a poor idea/product..

Again... the onus is on the seo company to ensure that the keywords targeted and the product offered is worth doing the seo for in the first place.

Ray

[sirearl]

OK my role as an SEO/SEM is to make sure a company is making money.End of story.

Having said that I only work on an equity basis hence I insist on control of what goes on a website allied to full financial information as without that it would be dificult to do my job.

Earl

[Delicious Webdesign]

Tin makes sense here, I ensure the client agrees to 'conversion' tweaks and website changes that may not be classed as pure SEO but could negatively affect if they are not done.

Currently we are trialing an optimised site (number 1 for its primary keyword) without a 'person video' on the front page to see if that has any impact (currently it seems to make no difference to emails / sales)

[Ali-v-8]

defining seo's role depends on what level seo you are.
i would never compare my self to first found or ico.
their roles are nothing like mine, iwould never copy there there techniques
but they say they are seo

[matt.chatterley]

I suppose that to some extent this can be rephrased as "under what circumstances would you not take a job?" (as different as that may seem from the original).

If a prospect falls clearly into the 'control freak' category and isn't going to let you do your job properly - then it's time to walk away (just one example).

Back to the original point - I agree with Tin & Earl - it's an end-to-end (should we say nose to tail) approach. You get 'em in and part 'em from their cash. That's your job and it's what people expect, perhaps subconciously, to be achieved.

[Codefixer]

You can do all the SEO in the world, but if your product & service is poor, unwanted or overpriced then the client won't get the return they want or expect.

SEO is just one factor in making a return, other factors include the quality of the site, product, price, copy, competition etc need to be assessed.

I expect experienced SEO's 'have a nose' for whether a site/product/service is a goer or not and whether with the clients top level budget a certain realistic amount of conversions can be achieved as to make the campaign profitable.

I also think it's important not to oversell your services and to keep the clients expectations in check, based on their investment.

[webdesignseoglobal]

Increasing Competition in SEO is the key ingredient to the above question. The vital role of an SEO is not just to provide SEO services, but to make sure that your client is generating enough business out of your efforts. To have it in place you need to keep in touch with your client constantly, as he/she is the one who knows better then anyone else about their respective business. This helps you in creating right SEO strategies for your client and get them some business too. Here, some SEO companies do provide 3-months free backup service to their clients in order to make sure that they have got what they expected. This even builds trust among your clients about your SEO company and may bring in more leads for you by word-of-mouth, and thus increases the reputation of your SEO company.

[sirearl]

To have it in place you need to keep in touch with your client constantly, as he/she is the one who knows better then anyone else about their respective business. .

Although at a product detail level that may or may not be true,at a marketing level it is very often not the case.IMHO

Earl

[Ebby Murphy]

Hey
I don't make prior commitment to my clients. I just commit for good ranks and fair profit. I never promise them of some kind of miracle in fact I clear them at very first moment that the results will be dynamic.

[sirearl]

Hey
I don't make prior commitment to my clients. I just commit for good ranks and fair profit. I never promise them of some kind of miracle

Why not thats what SEO's do.?:|:)

Earl

[herodigital]

hmm, the consensus seems to be that SEO's should consider conversions and as such, profit.

i must challenge this, at least to a degree.

i am very passiontate about design and i consider myself to have a strong understanding of what works and what doesn't. it's fair to say that if a site was poor and all the SEO in the world would not make it succeed, then i would NOT take on the job.

but if we have a website which the client is happy with, it looks good and is technically sound, what other barriers are there? product range, product price etc etc. researching the market is NOT the job of the SEO. in fact, i would suggest that our job only goes so far as to look at keyword competitors in Google.

i think SEO is a marketing investment like any other; when a creative design is signed off and handed over, it's performance is out of the hands of the provider. so when an SEO achieves top rankings and the site doesn't perform, how is this any different? unless, of course, the SEO is ALSO responsible for the website, which is another story...

[Tin]

Seo's should be in a position to see (with expertise and a bit of guesstimation) whether the client is likely to come out the "right side up" if they use your services. Irrespective of how much they spend on site design and seo you need to ensure that they should be able to recover their investment in you and go on to make more money over time.

The bottom line is that the site not only ensures they recover their investment but that their profit continues to increase. If I don't think I can do that for a client, I tell them and turn them away politely.

Sorry if I'm coming across the wrong way, not meaning too.

Ray

[ZMakarov]

i want to ask that whats new in seo plz share your knowledge o us.. any new technique which you are using?

[Ali-v-8]

It has been confirmed that wrapping elastic bands to the end of a pencil and building them up until you have what could be described as a rubber mace and taking the very same mace and bopping your colleague over the head with it will definitely have no adverse effect of your Serp's what so ever.:eek:
I tested this theory on a number of colleagues and gain no positive or negative effects, except now no one will get me a brew. :mad:
Conclusion: no more bopping colleague with a desk constructed rubber Mace. :D

Who says we cant provide valuable information. :D:p

i want to ask that whats new in seo plz share your knowledge o us.. any new technique which you are using?

[herodigital]

i want to ask that whats new in seo plz share your knowledge o us.. any new technique which you are using?

how about you go and make your own thread? thanks.

[directmarketingadvice]

You can do all the SEO in the world, but if your product & service is poor, unwanted or overpriced then the client won't get the return they want or expect.

SEO is just one factor in making a return, other factors include the quality of the site, product, price, copy, competition etc need to be assessed.

I expect experienced SEO's 'have a nose' for whether a site/product/service is a goer or not

I'm not sure I agree.

If you're starting a business, proper market research should probably take you at least 20 hours.

If you're an SEO and someone approaches you to do SEO for their business, are you going to do those 20 hours research yourself, just to make sure the client has a workable idea?

If so, who is going to pay for that time... especially if you decide it's not a good business model?

The SEO should be able to give an idea of the size of the market and how much it'll cost to get rankings, but the business owner has to take responsibility for their business model.

Seve

[JElder]

You do run the risk of doing exactly what SEO specialists have been complaining about for years to website designers - just because you can do one thing, doesn't mean you can do another. For a successful site, you need the following roles (although generally they are done by less people):


An idea - a market need that needs served
A price point and service level that is competitive
A site design than is appealing, well structured and makes it easy for people to purchase/enquire
Marketing or SEO so people find the site
Customer service and support so customers get what they want


We use a conversion specialist to design site structures and paths for maximum conversion, a graphic designer to create suitable graphics and colours, SEO Specialist (me!) for running PPC campaigns and on-site and off-site SEO.

The other bits are up to the customer. We do NOT check that what they offer is required by the market, that their offer is the right price, or their service quality.

If an individual tries to specialise in too many areas, they generally end up being only mediocre at all of them - hence why larger full service agencies and very specialist agencies generally have higher fees.

[sirearl]

The SEO should be able to give an idea of the size of the market and how much it'll cost to get rankings, but the business owner has to take responsibility for their business model.

Seve

Different ball game online,my experience is that few business owners understand enough about online marketing for the responsibility to be left in there hands alone.

Earl

[directmarketingadvice]

Different ball game online,my experience is that few business owners understand enough about online marketing for the responsibility to be left in there hands alone.

In that case, we're back at the question: when a prospect approaches an SEO, who is going to pay for the SEO to analyse the business model?

Steve

[sirearl]

In that case, we're back at the question: when a prospect approaches an SEO, who is going to pay for the SEO to analyse the business model?

Steve

Well I can only speak for myself.I would do all needed research myself at my expense.Again I don't think this requires a lot of time in general thanks to the Internet.:)

Earl

[Ali-v-8]

I always look at the business model.
No point in optimising for the wrong crowd.

Or am i misunderstanding what you mean by business model.

[directmarketingadvice]

I always look at the business model.
No point in optimising for the wrong crowd.

Or am i misunderstanding what you mean by business model.

I think you must be. I'd estimate that it'd take around 20 hours to do this properly. Unless you're spending 20 hours per prospect, you're not doing it.

If you were doing it, and not getting paid for the work, you'd be a mug.

Steve

[sirearl]

I think you must be. I'd estimate that it'd take around 20 hours to do this properly. Unless you're spending 20 hours per prospect, you're not doing it.

If you were doing it, and not getting paid for the work, you'd be a mug.

Steve

You need to get up to speed Steve or get rid of that ZX81.:)

Earl

[directmarketingadvice]

You need to get up to speed Steve or get rid of that ZX81.:)

Yes, yes, that's the difference between what I'm talking about and what you and Ali are talking about...

No-one in their right mind would start a business without spending at least 20 hours looking into it. Why? What are they doing during all that time?

Steve

[RedEvo]

I'm with Steve here and we charge clients for our time to investigate the potential (market/keywords/competition etc) and you'd be daft not too unless you are using the Alvin method of SEO - which is fine by the way.

d

[Kingdingle22]

If you've got a bit of commercial awareness about you, you should be able to make a resonable judgement on whether or not a business is a commercially viable one that could work well online in about 30 minutes of research.

e.g.

- Look at the competition: is there any? (If no, be worried!)
- How does this business compare with these competitors? Price and the value proposition?
- Can you imagine a demand for this product/service? How strong? Search for fan groups/forums/fansites/infosites etc...


Ten minutes and you'll have a decent idea actually.

[sirearl]

No-one in their right mind would start a business without spending at least 20 hours looking into it. Why? What are they doing during all that time?

Steve

Well I never claimed to be in my right mind.:|

Big difference between a bricks and mortar to a website.

You can wack a site up in half an hour .Investigating a products desirability is childs play on the net as is estimating the competition and the likelyhood of being competative.

Bricks and mortar the solicitors would still be finishing there slap up paid for by you're huge fee at the dorchester in the time it takes for a website to be up and running.;)

Earl

[herodigital]

Bricks and mortar the solicitors would still be finishing there slap up paid for by you're huge fee at the dorchester in the time it takes for a website to be up and running.;)

Earl

it's pretty ironic that for many business models, the website can out-perform the bricks and mortar store (if done correctly) :)

[sirearl]

it's pretty ironic that for many business models, the website can out-perform the bricks and mortar store (if done correctly) :)

Not really if you think about the amount of people the web reaches.

Never been involved in a business where the web sales were not many times the B&M's.

Earl

[directmarketingadvice]

You can wack a site up in half an hour

The fact you can stick a site up in half an hour - and so cheaply - is a large part of why so many of them fail.

Steve

[lucy gray]

seo is the important part of internet marketing. seo has greate techniques that helps he can optimize a site............

[Lease4Less]

Surely the main role of an SEO is too achieve the results requested by the customer?

If for example the client has requested a page top 3 position on page one, and the SEO achieves this then job done?

How much more profit the client makes is irrelevant. You can drive 10 times more traffic to the site but if the business isn't converting the leads then it's not the SEO's fault is it?

Understanding the importance of SEO we have been stung several times over the last few years now by being promised fantastic results for quite a large budget, only to be disappointed 12 months later, and hear the same excuses for not achieving the target that we agreed on.

The company that we are using now are being paid on a results basis.

Maybe we have just been unlucky, but there seems to be a number of SEO companies that just want to take your money for 12 months knowing from the start that they have little or no chance of delivering what they claim.

[sirearl]

The fact you can stick a site up in half an hour - and so cheaply - is a large part of why so many of them fail.

Steve

Nope the main reason why sites fail is because they have the wrong product/s and or they are not found by customers.

Earl

[Ali-v-8]

Not Ironic at all. In fact common sense. B&M are restricted to reach. (not including distributors(ones that advertise in magazines (but they usually have sites))).
I.e a PC shop in Manchester would be able to get clients from the local area.
The website gets traffic from anywhere it can advertise.
I always use an analogy to explain SEO / PPC marketing and websites.

Building an ecommerce website without SEO is like building a shop in the middle of a field. PPC creates the roads and paths and signs to your Shop. SEO grabs your shop and puts it onto the high street. :D

it's pretty ironic that for many business models, the website can out-perform the bricks and mortar store (if done correctly) :)

[directmarketingadvice]

Nope the main reason why sites fail is because they have the wrong product/s and or they are not found by customers.

Which, again, are problems resulting from a lack of proper market research.

(Or a foolish over-reliance on needing to get SEO rankings.)

Steve

[onlineconnect]

If the keyword is popular enough and an seo puts it to the top of google, you could put your shopping list up and still make money

[herodigital]

Not Ironic at all. In fact common sense. B&M are restricted to reach. (not including distributors(ones that advertise in magazines (but they usually have sites))).
I.e a PC shop in Manchester would be able to get clients from the local area.
The website gets traffic from anywhere it can advertise.
I always use an analogy to explain SEO / PPC marketing and websites.

Building an ecommerce website without SEO is like building a shop in the middle of a field. PPC creates the roads and paths and signs to your Shop. SEO grabs your shop and puts it onto the high street. :D

i meant ironic in the context of sirearls comment. setting up a quality website takes effort, time and cost, but in comparison to a B&M store it's less, so the irony is that with less investments you can actually achieve more long-term success.

[sirearl]

Which, again, are problems resulting from a lack of proper market research.

(Or a foolish over-reliance on needing to get SEO rankings.)

Steve

Agreed a common scenario is a shop who has been selling his products to the local population for years thinking all they have to do is wack a website up.

The competition for a local shop and the WWW is a whole new ball game.

Earl

[adventurelife]

Some thoughts from a non SEO

When I am looking at going into a new business as I am at present I do weeks not hours of research, sometimes months. One I am looking at just now will involve a week in China.

Research, research ,research I cannot over emphasis it because when you do it right it hugely reduces the chance of failure.

To Earls point of course the internet has made research much much quicker.

So what do I want from a SEO? Rankings and conversion, and online marketing advice everything else is my responsibility and why would a business owner think that the SEO would have more knowledge in other areas of business.

Of course you guys are going to get approached by daft people with daft ideas that will never work, an experienced seo/marketer will be able to see it is daft, then it comes down to your principles.

[sirearl]

So what do I want from a SEO? Rankings and conversion, and online marketing advice everything else is my responsibility .


So how comes you get the easy job.?:p

As said before the SEO may not know as much about your product in detail,but is very likely to know a great deal more as regards marketing that product on the internet.

Afraid as far as research is concerned you are right that it is all important,but as an SEM we in general are far more experienced than your average Joe in determining a products viability as regards the internet allied to research resources that you may not have available.

Hence why I say it will in general not take long to determine a products viability.

Earl

[adventurelife]

So how comes you get the easy job.?:p

As said before the SEO may not know as much about your product in detail,but is very likely to know a great deal more as regards marketing that product on the internet.

Afraid as far as research is concerned you are right that it is all important,but as an SEM we in general are far more experienced than your average Joe in determining a products viability as regards the internet allied to research resources that you may not have available.

Hence why I say it will in general not take long to determine a products viability.

Earl

Well some of the SEO companies I have visited recently who are on the market did not seem to have to hard a job;)

However, I agree Earl the viability of a product to be sold on the internet does not take long. However, I have several businesses on my desk here that are all internet led with viable products and okay rankings. The businesses are still a mess though and will take time and money to fix. If they do not sell I suspect they will fold in a year or two.

Good rankings in some cases causes issues with, distribution, stock and most importantly finance.

I do not get hung up on product or service, to a certain extent as long as it is viable I do not care. Must be a age thing as some of the businesses I am currently looking at I would not have considered 5 years a go

[directmarketingadvice]

I always use an analogy to explain SEO / PPC marketing and websites.

Building an ecommerce website without SEO is like building a shop in the middle of a field. PPC creates the roads and paths and signs to your Shop. SEO grabs your shop and puts it onto the high street. :D

Utter madness.

Time to switch off your computer and actually visit a high street.

Steve

[sirearl]

Utter madness.

Time to switch off your computer and actually visit a high street.

Steve

Quite we get far more visitors than a shop on Londons Oxford Street and 24 hours a day no comparison.:|

Earl

[directmarketingadvice]

Quite we get far more visitors than a shop on Londons Oxford Street

And where do you get that figure from?... or is it just the usual puffery with nothing to back it up?

Steve

[sirearl]

And where do you get that figure from?... or is it just the usual puffery with nothing to back it up?

Steve

Pure logic Steve a shop on Oxford street is not big enough to contain our daily visitors even Selfridges would struggle.:(:)

You know it makes sense Steve.!

Earl

[directmarketingadvice]

Pure logic Steve a shop on Oxford street is not big enough to contain our daily visitors even Selfridges would struggle.:(:)

You know it makes sense Steve.!

It would make sense if everyone was in the shop at the exact same time... but it doesn't work that way...

So if your only "evidence" for your claim is that the shop can't hold as many visitors as you get, then I'll continue to be sceptical.

Steve

[sirearl]

It would make sense if everyone was in the shop at the exact same time... but it doesn't work that way...

So if your only "evidence" for your claim is that the shop can't hold as many visitors as you get, then I'll continue to be sceptical.

Steve

Best thing Steve is if you phone every shop on Oxford Street and ask each one how many customers they have in a day.

Then I will publish my visitor numbers and we will have a scientific test.:|

Earl

[herodigital]

erm, surely there is no debate about which medium is most popular?

even the largest physical stores have a limit. are you telling me there is a bricks and mortar store in the WORLD that gets more visitors than amazon or play.com, on a daily basis? unlikely. customers, on the other hand, is a different matter...

[directmarketingadvice]

Best thing Steve is if you phone every shop on Oxford Street and ask each one how many customers they have in a day.

:D

Which is your way of telling us you have no idea how many visitors they have.

Which means your claim to have more was, as I suspected, just some stuff you made up in order to do some tedious (and, as usual, utterly unfounded) boasting.

Thanks for the laughs. The bit where you thought shops have all their visitors at the same time was especially amusing. :eek:

Steve

[sirearl]

:D

Which is your way of telling us you have no idea how many visitors they have.

Which means your claim to have more was, as I suspected, just some stuff you made up in order to do some tedious (and, as usual, utterly unfounded) boasting.

Thanks for the laughs. The bit where you thought shops have all their visitors at the same time was especially amusing. :eek:

Steve

Again logic comes to me aid.

They could not possible have as many visitors as me.

As there's no where to park.:|

P.S Moi boast.:eek:

I have my friends at google to do that for me.;)

Earl

[Ali-v-8]

err guys, sorry to say this but aren't you BOTH on the same side here.
PPC and SEO gets people on the most busiest high street there is. PAGE ONE GOOGLE.
The reason i say this is Google has Billions of visitors a day. i doubt that Oxford street can claim that. And if you say What about Xmas then you only add to google visits too.

[directmarketingadvice]

They could not possible have as many visitors as me.

As there's no where to park.:|

If only London would build an underground (or create a public bus service), then people would be able to go to Oxford Street without driving there.

Steve

PS Come to think of it, I remember the last time I was in London, I saw Joe Jordan in Oxford Street. I wonder how I got there without a car.

[directmarketingadvice]

The reason i say this is Google has Billions of visitors a day. i doubt that Oxford street can claim that.

The comparison is daft.

If someone living in Hamburg had the only choices of (a) shopping online via Google or (b) shopping in Oxford Street, London, then it would make sense.

But they don't...

Steve

[Ali-v-8]

But i thought thats why you made this comment

Utter madness.

Time to switch off your computer and actually visit a high street.

Steve

[directmarketingadvice]

But i thought thats why you made this comment

I made it to suggest that, if you did visit a real shopping high street, you'd realise your comparison doesn't make sense.

Steve

[sirearl]

I made it to suggest that, if you did visit a real shopping high street,
Steve

So whats you're definition of a real high street.?

Only this is ours:

http://www.seewhitstable.com/whitstable-shops-and-businesses/Images/Oystercatcher%20Cottage/harbour%20street.jpg

Earl

[directmarketingadvice]

So whats you're definition of a real high street.?

I suppose the question is, will posting that photo distract attention from you stating "facts" you made up yourself?

Steve

[sirearl]

I suppose the question is, will posting that photo distract attention from you stating "facts" you made up yourself?

Steve

Oh so you invite someone to visit a real high street even though you have no idea what it is.:|

Earl

[directmarketingadvice]

Oh so you invite someone to visit a real high street even though you have no idea what it is.:|

More distractions.

What's next, Earl? An unsubstantiated claim that your site has more visitors than all the branches of M&S put together? :D

Steve

PS You're missing the point I was making when I suggested Ali visits a high street. It wasn't about the number of people there, it was about how they behaved.

[sirearl]

More distractions.

What's next, Earl? An unsubstantiated claim that your site has more visitors than all the branches of M&S put together? :D



It does after 6pm.;)

Are we talking about the behaviour in an English High street or a scottish one.?:|

Earl

[I, Brian]

So - to summarise the thread as I've read it so far:

1) it remains essential to a business that it has visibility in front of its potential customers

2) and that there are various ways in which this can be achieved

3) SEO and PPC are valid methods of attaining visbiility, as is having a physical shop for walk-in sales

Is that about right, or have I missed something? :)