MCP, MCSE, Webmaster???? [Archive]

easyasit

25th February 2006, 09:32

Hi all

i thought while there is the thread asking about MBAs in the General Business Forum,i might pose the question here, does anyone have any of the above qualifications?
MCP, MCSE, MCSA or even the Webmaster?
If so without me starting another poll on it, have you much benfitted from it?

My personal opinion is i think qualifications are important if wee are to succeed in this field now, it is no longer enough just havng knowledge and experience. Mind you i am not a web developer as i understand most of you to be. My field is more networking/hardware

Al

DotNetWebs

25th February 2006, 11:00

Interesting question and one I have mentioned before.

From a developers point of view these are Microsoft qualifications so will not be relevant to anybody developing for the web with other technologies. (not sure about the webmaster qualification though I haven't heard of that).

Ever since I started developing with Microsoft products back in the Visual Basic 3 days I have used MCSD and latterly MCAD study guides to test my own knowledge of these technologies. Microsoft themselves and other companies such as Transender have free single exams for revision and self testing. I try and use these when I can to keep myself up to date.

As I have no intention of applying position elsewhere I have not bothered to go the extra mile and prepare for and pay for the actual exams. The only benefit for me would to be able to stick a "MCP","MCAD", or "MCSD" logo on my website. I guess it might help if I was to try and win some larger contracts with companies that recognise these certifications but having seen some of the "braindump" sites I am sure that there are people with these qualifications that have just learnt past questions parrot fashion.

What do others think?

DuaneJackson

25th February 2006, 11:21

I did someof the studying for MCSE years ago. Didn't bother paying for the exam.

The fact that these qualifactaions expire after a few years is a reall off-putter.

Also, you have to learn the 'microsoft' answer to a lof of the questiosn, which is often different to the real answer.

easyasit

26th February 2006, 09:41

The fact that the qualification expires after a few years is indeed true, but i thought it was only true for the MCSE, the MCP lasts forever doesn't it?

Al

seabro

26th February 2006, 18:35

I am (was)

MCP Windows NT4
CLP Lotus Notes / Domino R5
CCNA (Cisco)

All expired.

Great when i was contracting but no use at all in the role i am in now which is MD, Marketing Manager, Sales Manager, Chief Engineer, Tea Boy...

--------------------------------------------
looking for love? cardiffpersonals.co.uk
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Mac Yeti

26th February 2006, 18:45

I did the first 4 LPI's a couple of years ago, and because I crammed each in in a couple of weeks I forgot it all roughly two weeks after each one :)

Also, the qualification lasts forever, so that just goes to show how pointless they are.

I did my studying for the CCNA too but never got around to taking the exam, and promptly forgot all that too.

Of course, all completely irrelevant doing the job I do anyway :)

Enigma121

26th February 2006, 19:14

A good BSc or MSc in computer science should give you a sound background in software development and configuration. These never expire.

The MCSE / SCJP / Oracle certification routes are all very well but have too short a life to be useful in anything but short-term lucrative contract work. After all they are designed to keep lining the software vendors pockets.

The study guides are useful however as you can pick up some good background knowledge from a read through without needing to go to the trouble of taking exams for a living.

mattk

27th February 2006, 08:02

I've done Developing and Implementing Web Apps using c# and Visual Studio, which makes me an MCP. I did it as part of the Microsoft Certified Solutions Developer course, but I believe MS have reshuffled their certifications and MCSD no longer exists.

Yes, I think it looks good on your cv, but I've never seen an employer specify that you MUST have MCSD/MCAD in order to apply for a job. If someone offered me the opportunity to take an exam I'd happily accept, but I'd never pay for it out of my own pocket.

Duane hit upon the single biggest failing with these exams - you have to learn the "Microsoft" way in order to pass, which in reality is rarely the "right" way to build an application.

27th February 2006, 09:25

When it comes to certifications, it puts the un-educated at ease.
Certifications are just another marketing tool. It sets you apart from
the rest of the folks in your field.

Studying towards MCDBA, I have 2 MCP in administrating & developing applications with SQL Server 2000. Comptia A+ And Network+ Certified.

Though none of my clients have ever asked me if I am certified, quality work matters most.

webit

27th February 2006, 10:35

easyasit

27th February 2006, 16:07

i take on board what u are all saying, but at the end of the day the mcp i think carries a lot of weight wen it comes to applying for jobs.
Yes i think they are a rip off, yes i also think they are a con.

I would like to study for a few of them, simply so i can get my foot back onto the IT ladder as it were :-) and gain some credibility within my business.
I would not go the full though for the mcse as i no longer believe the money is there in it. Plus as u say u have to keep on renewing it and updating it, or it becomes obsolete.

Personally for this reason i believe the British Computing Society might still have a role to play within the industry.
But then again what else can we do, the industry is constantly on the move.
It is the same for doctors and nurses, they need to keep training and doing courses or lose the registration :-(

Al

Enigma121

27th February 2006, 18:35

Personally for this reason i believe the British Computing Society might still have a role to play within the industry.
But then again what else can we do, the industry is constantly on the move.
It is the same for doctors and nurses, they need to keep training and doing courses or lose the registration :-(

Al

I'd agree with this. There are other professional bodies too, such as IAP . This provides an alternative direction to go when you get tired of paying software vendors for extortionate courses and short term certification.

DarrenC

27th February 2006, 21:03

I'm a MOUS

... a Microsoft Office User Specialist..

.. it's a proper qualification honest!

mattk

28th February 2006, 07:44

Don't join the British Computer Society - what a total waste of money that is!

WomenXtra

28th February 2006, 07:57

what about if someone wants to specialise in SEO (search engine optimisation)? which certification would you recommend? baring in mind, SEO is a fast moving developing world ;)

mattk

28th February 2006, 08:03

Evidence, proof, case studies, examples - that what someone who wants to specialise in seo should have.

easyasit

28th February 2006, 12:53

i do agree that the industry needs to be reguated, like the accounts, lawyers, and etc are.
They have the ACA, Law Society, various bars.

The problem now is the the society that might have represented British computing i think has left it too late to make any impact in the way the industry runs.

Perhaps there should be a permanent qualification at least, somethin like the Chartered Computer Engineer etc or something. Qualifications u can keep, but need to update for them still to be valid.
The problem with this as i said is that the likes of Cisco and Microsoft etc have taken advange of the fact that there was no qualification pathway and offered products to fill the niche.
I look forward to the day though wen someone puts microsoft in their place and removes their now highly annoying monopoly on the industry.

Al

darren atkinson

28th February 2006, 19:07

Hi Al and everyone else,

I hold an MCSE in Windows 2000. For me the courses and exams gave me the credibility to get jobs in IT in my area. Employers liked that fact I had done the full courses rather than self study / used a brain dump and they placed a higher value on this.

I think courses such as the MCSE and Cisco stuff are needed in todays industry, I would would much rather have a up to date MCSE and a CCNA/P than any degree.

Lets be honest, degrees are virtually worthless in todays job market, and do they prove that you have any skills? Not in my opinion. I am not slagging off people with degrees, but having worked for a University before, it is amazing to see how certain coursework and projects get marked, not on the content, but more on a percentage of the students pass rate to keep their numbers up and the money coming in.

Back to the subject I feel at the moment couses such as the above are worth something, at least until something better comes along.

Darren

mattk

1st March 2006, 07:47

I think courses such as the MCSE and Cisco stuff are needed in todays industry, I would would much rather have a up to date MCSE and a CCNA/P than any degree.

Lets be honest, degrees are virtually worthless in todays job market, and do they prove that you have any skills?
I think it does depend on what kind of job you are aiming for, but I think you'll find a degree is far from worthless.

I did a quick search on Jobserve:

For "c# and london" there were 1119 jobs
For "c# and london and degree" there were 197 jobs
And for "c# and london and (mcse or mcsd or mcad or certified or certificate)" there were just 31 jobs returned.

This would suggest to me that employers are much more interested in what you are prepared to learn, than what you already think you know.

WomenXtra

1st March 2006, 07:55

i think employers are greedy, they want us to have the degree + the knoweldge + the expereince... Life is hard as it is, why make it harder... ;)

I think degrees are good, without my computer science degree I wouldn't have known a lot of information about the over all systems and programming languages. There was modules which I didnt like or enjoy at the time, and I wouldnt have picked a book on them for a million years to come.. but I was forced to do it - so I could pass my degree. and I am glad I did! I really think it has benefited me in a BIG WAY!

I also would think if universities, gave us more hands on real life situations, it would help us far more in real life.

darren atkinson

1st March 2006, 10:17

I did a quick search on Jobserve:

For "c# and london" there were 1119 jobs
For "c# and london and degree" there were 197 jobs
And for "c# and london and (mcse or mcsd or mcad or certified or certificate)" there were just 31 jobs returned.

This would suggest to me that employers are much more interested in what you are prepared to learn, than what you already think you know.

I understand what you are saying, your example isn't the best though as what does a mcse have to do with c#? I know the other mcsd and mcad are a little more relevant.

This thread is mainly concerned with MCSE and the Cisco stuff, which lends itself towards networking qualifications.

I feel for the networking job sector, someone armed with a MCSE and a CCNP with a little experience would be so much higher regarded compared with someone with a degree.

MCSE's are far too easy to get though, anyone who spends enough time and money doing their homework can obtain an MCSE relativly easily. The Cisco qualifications (especially the higher levels) are very difficult to pass, and as such they do hold a higher weight with employers in the networking arena. Microsoft are apparently revamping their qulaifications quite a bit, hopefully this will help give them their value back.

Darren

mattk

1st March 2006, 10:27

I've seen lots of job adverts that specify:

Graduates only
2:1 or above
Red Brick university

I've never seen an ad that say:
Non-graduates only

And I've never seen an ad that specifies Microsoft Certification as a pre-requisite to applying.

Ryuumeiko

1st March 2006, 10:37

Also anyone can call themselves a webmaster (or mistress ;)) if they have their own website - it's not really a qualification.

WomenXtra

1st March 2006, 10:39

but having your own website does help I think. I have been asked many times, could you please show us an example of the work you have done?

;)

easyasit

1st March 2006, 12:53

i have to agree with both of you, Darren to an extent and MattK all the way.

Darren if you have the full MCSE then it is likely i will be picking ur brains as i am following this path as well ;-)
Though to be honest the money is dropping for MCSE qualified engineers i think.
But u are right i need to get this passed if i am going to proceed in the IT field as i wish.
Into the bargain sorry Darren but i side with MattK here in so far as i have seen dozens of IT jobs requests a good honours degree as well. Usually in IT or a related science.
By the same token Darren is also right as i feel degrees in computer science are also overated. If someone came to me for a job in IT with a degree i would want to see what they studied :-)

I think it is swings and roundablouts.

btw, does anyone know wen thre 70-210 is going to be redundant? Windows 2000 Professional?

Al