How much should I be paying my accountant?

[shaunatsf]

Hi,

I am hoping you can help. My question is how much should I be paying my accountant? We have a turnover of approx £500,000 a year and we use sage software and we do our payroll in house. All invoices, purchase receipts, bank statements, etc are given in folders to the account divided by month (invoices) and by company for purchases.

I was hoping the accountants on UKBF or members who have a similar turnover to us could give me an indication of what I should be paying for my end of year filing.

Thanks
Shauna

[elainec100@cheapaccounting]

Shauna

That really is like how long is a piece of string.

My suggestion would be to go to tender - see the sticky on how to select an accountant.

Select say 6 to get a quote from.

Write down what you want them to do, what you will provide, the time scales you expect etc etc

Send it out

Set up your selection matrix - price, quality, skills, member of professional body, other services available etc (make this to suit you)

Mark the response to the matrix

Job done

Hope this helps

(would love to be on your list :p:p)

[MyAccountantOnline]

Hi,

I am hoping you can help. My question is how much should I be paying my accountant?
Shauna

Hi Shauna

It really is an impossible question to answer.

You will see an absolutely huge variation in accountants charges just as with any other service provider and thats even if we knew your exact requirements and had much more information about your set up and business.

People often query fees when they feel they are no longer getting value for money so perhaps its time to look around.

Again as with any other service provider you will always find someone who is cheaper.

[maxine]

Hi Shauna

You could use me to do some groundwork for you :) www.find-me-an-accountant.com (http://www.find-me-an-accountant.com) or you can go straight to the questionnaire (http://survey.constantcontact.com/survey/a07e2wcxsgrg98x97oa/start)and I will start working on your requirments :)

Sorry to plug.. this is the first time I have done this on here but it is beneficial if people want to seek out quotes based on a combination of factors and anonymously too... its free to the Op and anyone else who wants to use to help find an accountant.

:)

[Philip Hoyle]

How long is a piece of string?

As an example, I have two almost identical clients, doing very similar work. One is charged over twice as much as the other. One does their own book-keeping to a high standard, respects the tax laws, gives all information to me on time and in an organised manner, and we have regular communication - the other just inputs numbers in Sage and hopes for the best, always trying on some tax fiddle, always late bringing info to me often screwed up in a carrier bag, and only phones or emails at the last possible time (often outside work hours) in some form of panic. Guess which one pays less?

Besides the practicalities, there's also the aspect of "added value". Just this week, it's turned out that I've saved a client over £10k in tax because of something as simple as drafting an A4 sheet of paper for him to sign several years ago that he wouldn't have known about at the time if I hadn't put it in front of him, and he'd long forgotten about anyway - this week, circumstances transpired that I could get the file, dust it down and produce that piece of paper which has just removed a potential £10k tax bill. Client couldn't believe it, not least because I didn't even charge extra for drafting it all those years ago. Only now does he know what a good accountant he has!!!

If you're happy in other aspects with the way they communicate, the way they offer advice, the speed of service, accessibility, etc., then it could really be false economy to move elsewhere for short-termism of cheaper fees if they turn out not to be so good!

[elainec100@cheapaccounting]

it could really be false economy to move elsewhere for short-termism of cheaper fees if they turn out not to be so good!

of course cheaper fees can always be much better as well :p:p

Depends on the accountant ;)

[Zeno]

of course cheaper fees can always be much better as well :p:p

Depends on the accountant ;)

And she wonders why she has no pals on Aweb.

[dp0848]

I love you Elaine!

[elainec100@cheapaccounting]

And she wonders why she has no pals on Aweb.

Well if a simple statement like that means it is the case then good. :rolleyes::rolleyes::p

The last time I looked it is the 21st century.

It is an age of price comparison web sites for anything from your pet insurance to mortgages. I am sure that this will increase in coverage.

It was only announced last week that supermarkets will be offering legal services - so accounting could be next! That will be an even bigger shock for some.:rolleyes:

We have just gone through a huge recession - the country is still in a mess financial and we are facing pretty huge cuts that are likely to touch every household in the country and most if not all businesses

If there are people out there who are not examining all of their costs, reviewing value for money, negotiating better deals then good for them that they can afford to not have to do this. :)

We could have been called 'value for money accountants' but it hardly rolls off the tongue and doesn't quite have the same marketing message! :D:D:p

[Jenni384]

of course cheaper fees can always be much better as well :p:p

Depends on the accountant ;)

And she wonders why she has no pals on Aweb.

... And David and Jenni laughed out loud :)

Agree with the other comments - it really is impossible to answer. Philip hit the nail on the head by illustrating the potential differences.

In my experience, clients often think they are better or worse than they are. Some less simple clients to deal with think they present everything just fine (they don't) and just won't change. Others who are a pleasure to deal (both in personality and quality of their records) apologise for not having their things in perfect order and for being a pain - when I wish more clients were like them!

[Zeno]

Well if a simple statement like that means it is the case then good. :rolleyes::rolleyes::p

Don't go getting your knickers in a twist, you know I was kidding. Anyway, you have lots of pals on here which is what matters.

I am actually very impressed with your business model but can't quite figure out how you do it so have not tried to rip it off myself.

[elainec100@cheapaccounting]

I love you Elaine!

group hug (excluding Zeno of course) :D:D:D

[dp0848]

group hug (excluding Zeno of course) :D:D:D

Yeah, who'd want to hug Zeno??? :eek::D;)

[elainec100@cheapaccounting]

Don't go getting your knickers in a twist, you know I was kidding. Anyway, you have lots of pals on here which is what matters.

I am actually very impressed with your business model but can't quite figure out how you do it so have not tried to rip it off myself.

I am not really I just like to have a rant. It is a women thing. :p:p

[Zeno]

Yeah, who'd want to hug Zeno??? :eek::D;)

I do alright thank you.

[dp0848]

I do alright thank you.

Yes, we've all heard about you down at the Post Office pulling the old dears collecting their pensions!

[Zeno]

Yes, we've all heard about you down at the Post Office pulling the old dears collecting their pensions!

Each to his own. Old chicks are the best anyway. They know "things" and so long as they remember to pop their teeth out before you get down to business the jobs a good 'un.

[Wild Goose]

And she wonders why she has no pals on Aweb.

Except for yours truly. Elaine's an old friend ;)

Everyone's so coy about prices, which doesn't much help the OP. I'll set the ball rolling. Our prices are up-front, so I guess we operate a little differently to most: £500k t/o costs £1,447 +VAT for reasonably well presented Sage, or similar double entry, books and £90 for the corporation tax return. Single entry records (eg Excel, manual books) take much more work so they'd be £2,083 +VAT.

Simples! :rolleyes:

[dp0848]

Except for yours truly. Elaine's an old friend ;)

Everyone's so coy about prices, which doesn't much help the OP. I'll set the ball rolling. Our prices are up-front, so I guess we operate a little differently to most: £500k t/o costs £1,447 +VAT for reasonably well presented Sage, or similar double entry, books and £90 for the corporation tax return. Single entry records (eg Excel, manual books) take much more work so they'd be £2,083 +VAT.

Simples! :rolleyes:

Up front quoting is best where possible as there can be no arguments at a later date.

[elainec100@cheapaccounting]

Elaine's an old friend ;)



less of the old please:rolleyes::rolleyes:;)

[Wild Goose]

less of the old please:rolleyes::rolleyes:;)

As if! Zeno tells me you have all your own teeth ;)

[GaryMc]

Each to his own. Old chicks are the best anyway. They know "things" and so long as they remember to pop their teeth out before you get down to business the jobs a good 'un.

It may be Friday but that is just too much information thank you

[elainec100@cheapaccounting]

Each to his own. Old chicks are the best anyway. They know "things" and so long as they remember to pop their teeth out before you get down to business the jobs a good 'un.

oh dear - just feel on the floor laughing at that one :D:D:D:D

I had that same conversation with a friend recently. Looking forward to the day I find myself in old folks home.

I said I would sit by the door eyeing up all the fresh blood as they arrived.

I wondered if it was social etiquette to snog with teeth in or out. :|:|:)

Any advice greatly received as it won't bee too long until they put me in a home. :eek:

[Zeno]

Zeno tells me you have all your own teeth ;)

Yes. Not still in her head though...

(Edit: Still bitter about being excluded from the group hug)

[elainec100@cheapaccounting]

As if! Zeno tells me you have all your own teeth ;)


yes - all bought and paid for thanks:):)

[dp0848]

It may be Friday but that is just too much information thank you

Well it's Zeno so what do you expect!

[Wild Goose]

Up front quoting is best where possible as there can be no arguments at a later date.

Doesn't work with lasagne though. Plenty of tantrums from yours truly when he was ripped off in Leicester Square.

[elainec100@cheapaccounting]

I love Fridays on the accounts forum. I don't venture into the other forum much - so they do the same on a Friday?:|

And they say accountants are dull :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::D:D

[elainec100@cheapaccounting]

Yes. Not still in her head though...

(Edit: Still bitter about being excluded from the group hug)

saving special one-to-one hug just for you :eek::eek:

when hell freezes over ;)

[MyAccountantOnline]

Each to his own. Old chicks are the best anyway. They know "things" and so long as they remember to pop their teeth out before you get down to business the jobs a good 'un.

Just reading this and cant stop laughing...you get worse:D:D:D:D:D

[elainec100@cheapaccounting]

Doesn't work with lasagne though. Plenty of tantrums from yours truly when he was ripped off in Leicester Square.


what - how did you not know the price of lasagne in Leicester Square?

Will I regret asking?

Was it at that little cafe with lots of dishes full of great Italian food but V expensive.

[dp0848]

what - how did you not know the price of lasagne in Leicester Square?

Will I regret asking?

Was it at that little cafe with lots of dishes full of great Italian food but V expensive.

It's a little trap us Londoners set for you northern types.

[Zeno]

You have to wonder what the OP's make of the updates to these threads.

[elainec100@cheapaccounting]

It's a little trap us Londoners set for you northern types.

I'm a southerner! :):):)

From a county where I wear white high heeled shoes :eek:

[elainec100@cheapaccounting]

You have to wonder what the OP's make of the updates to these threads.

I know - so unprofessional really but great to let off a bit of steam and be human :p

[Wild Goose]

what - how did you not know the price of lasagne in Leicester Square?

Will I regret asking?

Was it at that little cafe with lots of dishes full of great Italian food but V expensive.

Turn right on the walk between between Eros and Leicester Square

They had a big sign outside saying Lasagne £7.95 but we somehow racked up £90 between us - no alcohol! The chips and rolls were extra and even the alleged salad cost an extra few quid each. Coffee a fiver, service charge 15%.

The lasagne was chewy, so don't go there Elaine. Not with your pearlies.;)

[Wild Goose]

I know - so unprofessional really but great to let off a bit of steam... :p

Better save that line for the old folks home.:D

[dp0848]

You have to wonder what the OP's make of the updates to these threads.

Probably that we're all nuts!!

[elainec100@cheapaccounting]

Turn right on the walk between between Eros and Leicester Square

They had a big sign outside saying Lasagne £7.95 but we somehow racked up £90 between us - no alcohol! The chips and rolls were extra and even the alleged salad cost an extra few quid each. Coffee a fiver, service charge 15%.

The lasagne was chewy, so don't go there Elaine. Not with your pearlies.;)


why were you having a meal without alcohol :|:|:|

[Wild Goose]

Probably that we're all nuts!!

All nuts and no carrot.

[Wild Goose]

why were you having a meal without alcohol :|:|:|

At those prices!!!? A glass of water cost £3!!

[Jenni384]

I paid £8 for a vodka and tonic in london last weekend. Needless to say, I didn't even get tipsy that night! And no, that wasn't accompanied by lasagne in Leicester Square!

[Zeno]

Everything in that urine soaked hell hole is over expensive. Wouldn't get me there for a pension.

[Zeno]

I paid £8 for a vodka and tonic in london last weekend

Jesus wept. The young girls round here just pay a couple of quid for a bottle of buckfast between them before they go out.

Unfortunately, it takes a couple of bottles each before they are interested in me.

[Wild Goose]

I paid £8 for a vodka and tonic in london last weekend. Needless to say, I didn't even get tipsy that night! And no, that wasn't accompanied by lasagne in Leicester Square!

That's pocket money to you, J. Put it on David's expenses.

[Wild Goose]

Jesus wept. The young girls round here just pay a couple of quid for a bottle of buckfast between them before they go out.

Unfortunately, it takes a couple of bottles each before they are interested in me.

Is that the voice of experience? Do their mummies and daddies mind you doing that?

[dp0848]

Jesus wept. The young girls round here just pay a couple of quid for a bottle of buckfast between them before they go out.

Unfortunately, it takes a couple of bottles each before they are interested in me.

Zeno, I think you made a typo. Should read crates not bottles. :D

[Jenni384]

That's pocket money to you, J. Put it on David's expenses.
Alas for David, I was buying a round!! :D

[dp0848]

That's pocket money to you, J. Put it on David's expenses.

Jenni's put so much on my account that I'm out of cash!

[Zeno]

Is that the voice of experience? Do their mummies and daddies mind you doing that?

It's actually all just a ploy to get to know the mummy better. I expect to be on "Jeremy Kyle" soon.

[dp0848]

You're just an old tart Zeno, just face up to it!!

[BusinessRookie]

Except for yours truly. Elaine's an old friend ;)

Everyone's so coy about prices, which doesn't much help the OP. I'll set the ball rolling. Our prices are up-front, so I guess we operate a little differently to most: £500k t/o costs £1,447 +VAT for reasonably well presented Sage, or similar double entry, books and £90 for the corporation tax return. Single entry records (eg Excel, manual books) take much more work so they'd be £2,083 +VAT.

Simples! :rolleyes:

I like your approach and think that transparency is key. Lots of people say that they simply can't tell what their own prices are but it doesn't inspire confidence if an accountant can't forecast their own charges?

Sounds like you operate a good system there.

[Wild Goose]

Jenni's put so much on my account that I'm out of cash!

Most of the Friday fun in our High Street local is that everything's on tab. Terriffic sport racking up a cricket score on someone else's tab - my good frien Guy often walks away with a large one.

[Zeno]

You're just an old tart Zeno, just face up to it!!

There is no point in being fussy. Who looks at the mantelpiece when they are poking the fire?

[dp0848]

There is no point in being fussy. Who looks at the mantelpiece when they are poking the fire?

My thoughts exactly!!

[Wild Goose]

It's actually all just a ploy to get to know the mummy better. I expect to be on "Jeremy Kyle" soon.

Have you been on Primrose Hill?

There is no point in being fussy. Who looks at the mantelpiece when they are poking the fire?

That's it! I'm tellin' Elaine you said that!!

[Jenni384]

My thoughts exactly!!
When I finally get your missus's email address you are going to be in SO much trouble!!!!!! :eek::D:p;):rolleyes::cool:

[dp0848]

When I finally get your missus's email address you are going to be in SO much trouble!!!!!! :eek::D:p;):rolleyes::cool:

Why do you think you don't have it????

[Wild Goose]

I like your approach and think that transparency is key. Lots of people say that they simply can't tell what their own prices are but it doesn't inspire confidence if an accountant can't forecast their own charges?

Sounds like you operate a good system there.

Thanks, it's about sharing the risk with the client. Got the idea from my local garage, who just suck through their teeth and say "that'll cost £65 an hour" which doesn't help me a jot as neither I nor they seem to have any idea how many hours a job might take.

[elainec100@cheapaccounting]

There is no point in being fussy. Who looks at the mantelpiece when they are poking the fire?





That's it! I'm tellin' Elaine you said that!!


Gosh - I used to go out with someone who said that :cool::cool::cool::rolleyes::eek::p

Was it you :|:eek:

[Wild Goose]

Gosh - I used to go out with someone who said that :cool::cool::cool::rolleyes::eek::p

Was it you :|:eek:

Mebbe so. Can you recall which decade please?

[elainec100@cheapaccounting]

Can you recall which decade please?

Now that would be a challenge - the little grey cells are not what they used to be :):)

Talking of recalling stuff - in 2 weeks time a group of us are going to be hitting Leeds as it is 25 years since we graduated :redface::redface:

So beware Leeds on 12th June - you have been warned :eek::eek:

We will of course be watching the US match probably in the Oak or Sky Rack - if anyone knows Leeds :)

[Wild Goose]

Wow, happy anniversary!

That's an evening kick-off btw - better not start too early!

[Zeno]

Was it you :|:eek:

You may have forgotten me but I am sure I could never forget you ;)

[Wild Goose]

You may have forgotten me but I am sure I could never forget you ;)

Bet he says that to all the twelve year olds :p

Footnote: Elaine, I've just looked up The Oak and it has 99p specials on glasses of wine and burgers @ £2.99. What a sentimental reunion that is going to be.

[Zeno]

Bet he says that to all the twelve year olds :p

Please. One should never go after young girls - 16 (despite what goes on in your neck of the woods) to 30 you should ignore. At this age they are young with expectations & standards. You have to take them places and buy them expensive presents and listen to their mindless prattle about boybands & I-pads.

The older lady however is more, well grateful.

[elainec100@cheapaccounting]

Bet he says that to all the twelve year olds :p

Footnote: Elaine, I've just looked up The Oak and it has 99p specials on glasses of wine and burgers @ £2.99. What a sentimental reunion that is going to be.

It that The Original Oak in Headingley. They used to have offers on pints of Mild I remember! I havd never heard of Mild until then :)

Oh those were the days. We lived in a hovel of a house, no heating, no money but we had a bloody great time.

[Wild Goose]

Please. One should never go after young girls - 16 (despite what goes on in your neck of the woods) to 30 you should ignore. At this age they are young with expectations & standards. You have to take them places and buy them expensive presents and listen to their mindless prattle about boybands & I-pads.

The older lady however is more, well grateful.

Hear that Jenni? You're about to hit womanhood and have Zeno on your tail :eek:

[elainec100@cheapaccounting]

The older lady however is more, well grateful.

Your charm overwhelms me :eek:

[Zeno]

Hear that Jenni? You're about to hit womanhood and have Zeno on your tail :eek:

Totally out of my league.

[GaryMc]

Has that ever stopped you?

[Wild Goose]

It that The Original Oak in Headingley. They used to have offers on pints of Mild I remember! I havd never heard of Mild until then :).

Called "The Original Oak in Leeds". Is yours the Oak Villa Hotel? Don't expect there'll be anything for 99p there!


Oh those were the days. We lived in a hovel of a house, no heating, no money but we had a bloody great time.

Sounds like Yorkshire alright - we used to live in a cardboard box in middle of High Street and after we'd finished 18 hour shift at Mill Dad used to beat us to sleep with a lead pipe each night.

[Zeno]

Has that ever stopped you?

Of course. You should always know your limits.

Besides, have you seen Jenni's poledancing? How could I possibly keep up? I'd be dead within a week.

[elainec100@cheapaccounting]

Called "The Original Oak in Leeds". .

http://www.bbc.co.uk/leeds/citylife/headingley_pub_original_oak.shtml

[elainec100@cheapaccounting]

I'd be dead within a week.

That long :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[dp0848]

Totally out of my league.

Nah, she has to get it where she can. They'll be well suited!

[Wild Goose]

.
Besides, have you seen Jenni's poledancing? How could I possibly keep up? I'd be dead within a week.

I thought I recognised Jenni from a lap-dancing club in Swindon, but she says not.

[Jenni384]

I dunno, I take 30 minutes out to do some actual work and look what happens :eek::D:p WG I'll pretend I didn't hear that!

Anyway, you're only as old as the man you feel. Which makes me 28 :D

[dp0848]

Anyway, you're only as old as the man you feel. Which makes me 28 :D

Cradle snatcher :eek::D

[Wild Goose]

Anyway, you're only as old as the man you feel. Which makes me 28 :D

I have it on good authority he's 40 and lying about his age ;)

[Jenni384]

I have it on good authority he's 40 and lying about his age ;)
I wasn't talking about David :D

[Wild Goose]

lol - poor David. He's on a hidin' to nothing!

Quick open question:
Should a first set of trading accounts, where dormants have been submitted previously, be logged as "first accounts" (ie with no comparative figures) on the Companies House online filing? Or should I put a whole set of nil comparatives throughout? This one has got me before, but I can't remember the right answer.

[Jenni384]

lol - poor David. He's on a hidin' to nothing!

Quick open question:
Should a first set of trading accounts, where dormants have been submitted previously, be logged as "first accounts" (ie with no comparative figures) on the Companies House online filing? Or should I put a whole set of nil comparatives throughout? This one has got me before, but I can't remember the right answer.
I believe the question is "Are these the company's first accounts since incorporation?" Logic says you answer this "no" but I don't know definitively.

[Wild Goose]

Was the right answer! Thanks J, your logic worked. :)

Someone ought to do something about that damd template at Cos House - doesn't even cater for FRSSE 2008 accounts yet. Not as a standard option, anyhow. Grrr

Only one set of accounts to finish and one payroll to go, no sauce and not much relish! Chop chop! :rolleyes:

[shaunatsf]

You have to wonder what the OP's make of the updates to these threads.
I have unfortunately been exceptionally busy today and so haven't had a chance until now to actually look at the responses to my question. I must admit by the end of page nine of the reply's I had kind of forgotten what the question was :rolleyes:

I am not sure whether i should respond with something relating to the initial question or respond to the reply that had something to do with looking at the mantle piece while poking the fire but my business head (or what is now left of it at 6.25pm on a Friday evening) has told me to stick with the question.

To give you an idea (and I am not the accountant, although I do see some sort of course in my future, any ideas appreciated especially online courses). At the end of the year we provide our accountants with the end of year from sage, all data in sage is checked and double checked on a weekly and then monthly basis to ensure they match up with the bank statements and our internal order/po/inventory system. We provide complete and orderly copies of all our bank statements, po's, invoices with all back up attached including delivery/collection notes for goods and the date and method of payment on the back of each invoice. We do our own VAT returns, payroll bank rec, and end of year stock.

Our end of year is the 31st of December and all materials are presented to the accountant by the middle/end of February (this is mainly because some of our invoices for purchase made in December are not sent until end Jan/ begining of Feb).

As previously mentioned I am not an accountant which I am sure much of what I have written above has already told you but I'm currently being charged around £4000 - £4500 a year. I think this is quite high.

I have asked for a breakdown from my accountant what the payment covers and I am hoping he will get back to me soon, but is there anything else we could be doing in house that would lower this amount, taking into account that I do have a person working part time that does the accounts so when you add her wages to the figure above I think on half a million turnover that is exceptionally high.

Dare I ask what your responses are to the above? Its not that I think you are all nuts (well maybe a little) but you do have to ask the question who spend £90 on a few slices of lasagne and a couple of lettuce leaves :-)

Thanks for the entertainment, it does help on a friday night when you are knackered.:)

SS

[Zeno]

If you are open to working online have you considered asking any the usual suspects on this thread for a quote?

If nothing else you know they have a sense of humour but you can see they are very well regarded and post excellent advice.

[Wild Goose]

As previously mentioned I am not an accountant which I am sure much of what I have written above has already told you but I'm currently being charged around £4000 - £4500 a year. I think this is quite high.


Ouch! Shop around.


Dare I ask what your responses are to the above? Its not that I think you are all nuts (well maybe a little) but you do have to ask the question who spends £90 on a few slices of lasagne and a couple of lettuce leaves :-)

SS

Sounds as though we've both been ripped off :redface:

[elainec100@cheapaccounting]

well glad to see that you don't mind us accountants having a bit of Friday fun.

If you re OK with it I can get someone to give you a quote based upon the info provided?

Would you drop me a PM with your email address if you would like us to look at it. No problem - if I don't here from you.

We are all qualified accountants (and some are certified in more ways than one!)

[allthingsgifts]

Hi, I'm not an accountant but if you are doing all the book keeping, wages and vat returns yourself and you are certain that you are doing it correctly and it's all reconciled etc then surely there isn't much for the accountant to do and shouldn't be charging all that, I would definitely contact Elaine at cheap accounting for a quote.
Lianne

[ayaz786amd]

Hi,

You have many options and one of them is Outsourcing your accounts to a freelancer. In this way you will get the accounts done at a cheap cost. If you use local accountants they willl charge about £20 per hour. But using a freelancer will reduce your cost less than half.

I can give you my services. I have three years of experience and i m ACCA. I am located in Pakistan but my whole expeince is about preparing accounts for Uk businesses.

Hi,

I am hoping you can help. My question is how much should I be paying my accountant? We have a turnover of approx £500,000 a year and we use sage software and we do our payroll in house. All invoices, purchase receipts, bank statements, etc are given in folders to the account divided by month (invoices) and by company for purchases.

I was hoping the accountants on UKBF or members who have a similar turnover to us could give me an indication of what I should be paying for my end of year filing.

Thanks
Shauna

[Cornish Steve]

It's certainly true around here that a majority of work performed by accountants is off-shored to India, Pakistan, and elsewhere. Often, the accountant doesn't tell you this, but it's how they compete. Why keep costs high for the more mundane work when less costly approaches are available? Pay the higher rates when you need complicated or specialized help.

Whether or not this is true in Britain, I don't know; I'd be surprised if it doesn't become the norm over time. It's like everything: For straightforward mass-market services, outsource to get better rates; focus your own time on those customers willing to pay a premium for specialized or personalized service.

[BusinessRookie]

It's certainly true around here that a majority of work performed by accountants is off-shored to India, Pakistan, and elsewhere. Often, the accountant doesn't tell you this, but it's how they compete. Why keep costs high for the more mundane work when less costly approaches are available? Pay the higher rates when you need complicated or specialized help.

Whether or not this is true in Britain, I don't know; I'd be surprised if it doesn't become the norm over time. It's like everything: For straightforward mass-market services, outsource to get better rates; focus your own time on those customers willing to pay a premium for specialized or personalized service.
Wow, it certainly seems like a good idea in principle from the couple of websites I've visited but most sites seem to offer prices by the hour, with a minimum monthly commitment? I guess this would be more attractive if there were fixed fee services for all types of accounting.
What you're saying makes sense to me though.

In fact, I would imagine that some of the cheaper online practices outsource already (which would make it easier to understand their cheap prices).

[Williams lester]

Well, I can confirm that we never outsource, either to the sub-continent or elsewhere. All our work is carried out in-house by our own team.

I have personal experience (whilst with a previous employer) of work outsourced to India. The quality we received back was extremely poor quality unless the descriptions of items was very precise.

[Atilla]

Hands up all those who prefer Customer/support services, call centres that are based in India??

Personally i can't imagine for one minute Accountancy services based there would be popular.

[Zeno]

Sounds a terrible idea to me both in theory & in execution. The processing of transactions that can be done by "outsourcing" is a very small part of any accounts prep. job and represents a fraction of the bill.

I will retire from the profession and make a living playing the piano in a knocking shop (and I can't play) before I would even consider doing this.

[bbbbb]

Sounds a terrible idea to me both in theory & in execution. The processing of transactions that can be done by "outsourcing" is a very small part of any accounts prep. job and represents a fraction of the bill.

I will retire from the profession and make a living playing the piano in a knocking shop (and I can't play) before I would even consider doing this.

But it is worrying when even IRIS are now pushing outsourcing (http://accountancy-practice.iris.co.uk/resource_centre/case_studies/shorthouse_and_martin_-_case_s.aspx) as the way to go. Thank God I've already retired albeit not to the piano in a knocking shop .. more to a kennels :cool:

[Wild Goose]

We piloted outsourcing using a firm of Indian Chartered Accountants for cloud bookkeeping. Three things happened:

1 After a few weeks they upped their hourly rates from £7 to £9
2 The exchange rate moved against us - they had to be paid in US dollars
3 Their trainess worked at somewhere between a third to one half the speed of a UK bookkeeper.

Add to that the hassle of very early morning starts to keep workflow going - yes, yes they charged for sitting around - plus their down-time issues, and the whole thing was untennable. The other thing that struck me is that most Indian outsourcers seem to be more attuned to USA taxes and GAAP.

For any firms thinking of outsourcing outside of the EEC, you will have to jump through a data protection hoop of getting your (Indian) outsourcers to complete a data protection assessment to UK data controller standards - alternatively for accountants and anyone else exporting others' data then insert a clause into your t&cs to obtain the customer's agreement to exporting their data outside of the EEC. Of course, nobody much reads t&c smallprint, so you have the ethical issue of whether to actually tell your clients their data is going to the sub-continent.

I can see the point of the DPA requirement: for anyone that has ever visited a third world country - yours truly has been to some very poor places where many people exist below the breadline in hovels: Tunisia; Trinidad; and Wales - then you will know about poverty and the rich/poor divide. I was very uncomfortable that the people we were paying Manish, our Indian CA, £9 an hour for themselves received a salary of a quid or two a day. The temptation for them to mis-use say credit card information or anything else sensitive must be enormous.

I've heard of others making outsourcing to India work. But at the end of the day, if your company t/o is £500k you should put aside a certain budget for accounts and tax work. If you want that done as cheaply as possible then India might be the place. But it comes with the above caveats.

[Atilla]

You lot are starting to scare me.

Outsourcing to the third world?? :eek:

I would be right royally f****d off if that was happening without prior notification and consent.

As an aside, it also seems, to me at least, to devalue your profession.

[Wild Goose]

Well if the consent is tucked away in the t&cs you sign (or push a button to accept if done online) then you've had your notification. I've read threads (not on UKBF) debating that ethical issue - do you actually point out to your clients that their work is being exported (yes, yes, we did with our pilot; but not everyone does that).

Alternatively, if an accountant (or bookkeeper) gets the Indian outsourcer to conform to DPA Data Controller standards (which frankly are neither that strict nor for that matter strictly policed) then there's no legal requirement to obtain a client's consent at all. Worrying, isn't it?

[maxine]

WG Thanks for explaining that for the likes of me to understand easily :)

and just to support what you say I know of accountants who do this but don't tell their clients as they don't need to, so presumably the Indian centre has gone through DPA

how does this work with professional indemnity? Is it the accoutant in the UK that bears the risk?

[Wild Goose]

Wotcha Max, what you doing up this late?

PII can be tricky. We had our insurance cover amended' The firm we trialled with in India were CAs so were allegedly covered, but I wouldn't have fancied our chances in an Indian court. I have a friend who worked there recently. Whilst driving his company car he knocked a guy off his motor-bike - no crash helmet of course, and the biker ploughed head first into a tree. A roadside monetary settlement was hastily arranged with the biker's friends - a few quid, as the average wage is less than a quid a day - who then dragged the semi-conscious biker away on the back of a truck. My friend thinks he probably died later, and was v. annoyed that we all laughed at his tale. Indian courts - no thank you!

[ayaz786amd]

Clients need quality work. They meet partners or managers for the finalisation of accounts not with the operating staff. And if you are asking about the quality then for your information one of the top 15 Uk firms is going to outsource its work to third world country. They have closely monitored the performance of the outsourcing firm and after an year they decided to outsource their work because no queries arise relating to quality. And the rate of this firm is also the same for the last 3 years, no increase at all.
Thats why i m looking for the work from Uk accountants or businesses because its not just we send you the work and you pay and that;s all. For each assignment there is a meeting after completion and final queries arise which we discuss with our client and then we finalise the accounts and tax. No question about poor quality after this process also if we provide poor quality work then we loose our cient.
Sooner this will be very common in UK because sometime people criticise things very rigidly but then they start following them when they saw big guns are getting benefits from it.
WG Thanks for explaining that for the likes of me to understand easily :)

and just to support what you say I know of accountants who do this but don't tell their clients as they don't need to, so presumably the Indian centre has gone through DPA

how does this work with professional indemnity? Is it the accoutant in the UK that bears the risk?

[maxine]

Thanks WG... I'm not laughing at your tale honest :) I'm interested though whether it is a legal requirement to change PII as the client takes up their loss with the accountant they have entered into a contract with or whether it is a to-be-on-the-safe-side choice where legally the Accountant could/would say to take it up with the sub-contract agency. Any idea where I would go to research this as I am interested in covering this for an article with www.find-me-an-accountant.com (http://www.find-me-an-accountant.com) and for me to ask accountants certain questions if I know they offshore bookkeeping work already.

To ayaz786amd = you completely misunderstood my post which was nothing to do with quality of work and to do with data security and UK laws... would you like to answer this point?

PS - WG = Do you remember many moons ago you suggested a "dating agency approach" to finding an accountant? ... well, now it's live :)

[Jaydee]

Do you remember many moons ago you suggested a "dating agency approach" to finding an accountant? ... well, now it's live :)

Good luck with it Max, but remember we are accountants not accountant's !!

[maxine]

Good luck with it Max, but remember we are accountants not accountant's !!

Thank you .. think I have found it.. there was one typo on my home page... did you see any others? :eek:

[Jaydee]

There were two - the second one is in the last line of the second paragraph

[Wild Goose]

Thank you .. think I have found it.. there was one typo on my home page... did you see any others? :eek:

independent, not independant ;)

spiel, not speil

[Wild Goose]

Thanks WG... I'm not laughing at your tale honest :) I'm interested though whether it is a legal requirement to change PII as the client takes up their loss with the accountant they have entered into a contract with or whether it is a to-be-on-the-safe-side choice where legally the Accountant could/would say to take it up with the sub-contract agency. Any idea where I would go to research this as I am interested in covering this for an article with www.find-me-an-accountant.com (http://www.find-me-an-accountant.com) and for me to ask accountants certain questions if I know they offshore bookkeeping work already.


Well I understood the client's contract was with us, in the same way as a building job you might undertake has you firmly in the front line, so that any negligence claim would not befall your sparkie sub-contractor who burns the place down. The customer claims from you (or your insurance co), you (or your insurers) claim from the errant Sparkie (or from his insurers). You are of course vicariously liable for the Sparks.

I've heard of cases where "joint tortfeasors" are named in a claim, say your company and the Sparks', as a safeguard in case your insurance company were to duck the issue, or in case you put your company into liquidation. But I cannot imagine anyone going to the time and trouble of suing an Indian firm in India, even if they weren't CAs. Least of all me. Bit of a generalisation, but those guys are born negotiators, and they'd no doubt hustle their way out.


PS - WG = Do you remember many moons ago you suggested a "dating agency approach" to finding an accountant? ... well, now it's live :)

Hey, many congrats on that site Max. And so honest of you to state whose idea it was in an open forum - I'll must remember to post you an invoice Tuesday ;)

I love the different types of client blog. Now that you're batting for the other side, how about one for "different types of accountant"?

[maxine]

Thanks for comments about PII.. I was thinking about this because of how upset someone was a few weeks ago when they "find out" their Accountant was offshoring their work.


Hey, many congrats on that site Max. And so honest of you to state whose idea it was in an open forum - I'll must remember to post you an invoice Tuesday ;)

Here it is... 11th Oct 2008 (http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=644166&highlight=dating+agency#post644166)(I obviously don't like to move too quickly on new ideas!) :)


I love the different types of client blog. Now that you're batting for the other side, how about one for "different types of accountant"?

Glad you liked that blog :) I might do one for different types of accountants but then I might not get any work :D ! A few headers come to mind...

The undervalued bright woman accountant
The voicemail accountant
The time-is-money accountant
The not-really-an-expert accountant
The serial award winners
The ego accountant
The away-with-the-fairies accountant
The semi-retired accountant
The religious accountant
The limited-liability-for-a-reason accountant

... oops best stop there :) ... unless you can think of any other headers?

Sorry, am joking :)

[Wild Goose]

Glad you liked that blog :) I might do one for different types of accountants but then I might not get any work :D ! A few headers come to mind...

Go on then. I hope you don't mean us.


The undervalued bright woman accountant

Elaine?


The time-is-money accountant

ouch!!


The serial award winners

Duane?


The ego accountant

David P?


The away-with-the-fairies accountant

Jenni?


The semi-retired accountant

Zeno?


... oops best stop there :) ... unless you can think of any other headers?

The introvert accountant
The extrovert accountant (worse)
The Obsessive Compulsive Disordered Accountant

[maxine]

Ha ha... no, I wasn't thinking of anyone on here at all :D

[Wild Goose]

Thanks for comments about PII.. I was thinking about this because of how upset someone was a few weeks ago when they "find out" their Accountant was offshoring their work.


I've had made a "No offshore outsourcing" Union Jack which will go up on our site soon. I'm hearing more and more of UK "accountants" who Fedex or scan the records to India for work to be carried out there. I have to say I too would be annoyed if that were done to my records without my knowledge and consent. I think a little client-reassurance is called for.

[Cornish Steve]

I've had made a "No offshore outsourcing" Union Jack which will go up on our site soon. I'm hearing more and more of UK "accountants" who Fedex or scan the records to India for work to be carried out there. I have to say I too would be annoyed if that were done to my records without my knowledge and consent. I think a little client-reassurance is called for.
From my experience, little is scanned or mailed. The customer must enter information at a secure website. The grunt work, if I can put it that way, is done in India while the local accountant handles the customer interface, verifies the paperwork, and handles any exception conditions. I have no problem with this. It's a smart way of doing business.

Someone implied it's immoral to allow an Indian worker to be paid just a few pounds an hour. Frankly, that's a very naive statement to make. It wasn't so long ago that India was synonymous with poverty; today, they are a strong and growing economy because they are not afraid of hard work and delivering value. (They are obsessed with education, and it tells in the professionalism of their work.) What might have been £2 or £3 an hour not so long ago is today £8 or £9. For anyone with moral qualms, we've helped to pull a major country out of poverty (which I've been fortunate to see first-hand on many occasions).

[Bri]

our accountant raised his fees on us a couple of months ago, his reason, he'd lost a few clients that had gone bust and we had to pay for it.


He's just lost another one too

[Atilla]

our accountant raised his fees on us a couple of months ago, his reason, he'd lost a few clients that had gone bust and we had to pay for it.


He's just lost another one too
What is it they say about accountants?

They know the price of everything but the value of nothing.

[Wild Goose]

What is it they say about accountants?

They know the price of everything but the value of nothing.

Wasn't that one of Oscar Wilde's famous quotes? He was talking about cynics, not accountants.
His famous accountant one-liner was "Why don't accountants stare out of their windows in the morning?"

[accountancyextra]

our accountant raised his fees on us a couple of months ago, his reason, he'd lost a few clients that had gone bust and we had to pay for it.


He's just lost another one too


I just love the lack of commerciality of some Accountants.....hilarious:D

(Sorry Bri, not for you I understand)

How do they advise their business clients when they do this type of thing

[maxine]

our accountant raised his fees on us a couple of months ago, his reason, he'd lost a few clients that had gone bust and we had to pay for it.


You would think wouldn't you that even if that was the reason, they would come up with a better explanation for customers? Apart from anything else it doesn't inspire confidence that they manage their credit risk very well either... which is an accountant's area of skill is it not?

[Wild Goose]

our accountant raised his fees on us a couple of months ago, his reason, he'd lost a few clients that had gone bust and we had to pay for it.

He's just lost another one too

Jacking prices up on the second year's accounts seems to be a common ploy. Rather as insurance companies do - get your business in the first year at any price, then put you through the wringer in year 2.

Good for you for reacting by changing, Bri.;)

btw, did they tell you about the increased fees before or after the job?

[Bri]

After.......to be fair he's a good accountant, got a good practice but moneys money at the end of the day. I agree with the above, if he'd said that because of....and the amount of work we've put in ....the cost this year is......we'd have absorbed it.

[Zeno]

What really worries me about this outsourcing farce (ignoring the security, quality etc) is that what does this mean for accounting trainees in the UK?

Does this mean that they will spend their training contracts being provided with a set of accounts that they have to "review"? How will they learn how to do it themselves?

I mean lets be honest how many partners/senior managers in the mid sized firms know how the accounts production software works?

[Jaydee]

Agreed Zeno

The other thing that I wonder about from the next batch of trainees is where are the next Registered Auditors coming from?

A large proportion of training contracts now must give no exposure at all to audit.

PS - Odd thread! 13 pages long and not much seems to deal with "How much should I be paying my accountant?" !!

[Zeno]

Agreed Zeno

The other thing that I wonder about from the next batch of trainees is where are the next Registered Auditors coming from?

A large proportion of training contracts now must give no exposure at all to audit.

I expect that we will see even greater division between accountants & auditors, possibly to the extent of a break away institute.

I had wondered if one of the effects of the credit crunch would be a reversal of the increase in audit thresholds but this would not appear to be happening soon so the point in training anyone in audit is certainly diminishing (if there ever was).

[Philip Hoyle]

Agreed Zeno

The other thing that I wonder about from the next batch of trainees is where are the next Registered Auditors coming from?

A large proportion of training contracts now must give no exposure at all to audit.

PS - Odd thread! 13 pages long and not much seems to deal with "How much should I be paying my accountant?" !!

Yes, I have to agree with you both. There's certainly a polarisation of accountancy practice generally. I think that in the same way insolvency practitioners have their own professional body and tend to operate their own insolvency practices, it wouldn't surprise me to see registered auditors being a separate spin-off away from the general accountancy practices. There is already a chasm between small and large accountancy practices which the main chartered bodies can't seem to address, hence the success of the likes of ICPA which are a body for small practicing accountants, whether qualified or not. At the end of the day "accountancy" is too big a discipline and having the profession split by professional bodies each trying to do the same thing isn't helpful. In the long term, I think we could have separate professional bodies for auditors and tax consultants and see a lot more specialist firms rather than the "all things to all men" approach where quality is diluted by firms trying to do too much.

[Zeno]

the "all things to all men" approach

I think there will always be a place for the "general practioner" in terms of accounting & taxation services to SMEs (for both our sakes I hope so anyway). For the small, owner managed company it is the only practical option.

I must admit that I often find accounts jobs for whom I am not the primary tax advisor are complicated the existence & input of the specialist. It ranges from simply the three way communication being a problem to the more erm.. inventive, schemes proposed that have to find their way into a set of accounts.

Not something I would like to do everyday.

[Philip Hoyle]

I think there will always be a place for the "general practioner" in terms of accounting & taxation services to SMEs (for both our sakes I hope so anyway). For the small, owner managed company it is the only practical option.

I must admit that I often find accounts jobs for whom I am not the primary tax advisor are complicated the existence & input of the specialist. It ranges from simply the three way communication being a problem to the more erm.. inventive, schemes proposed that have to find their way into a set of accounts.

Not something I would like to do everyday.

Of course, I absolutely agree. For the smaller, simpler client, a general practitioner is absolutely fine. After all, such a client won't need a statutory audit and probably will never need any specialist tax advice. If a small general practice can't advise on basic VAT, company remuneration, basic CGT on business sale, etc etc., then they definitely shouldn't be in business.

[Zeno]

If a small general practice can't advise on basic VAT, company remuneration, basic CGT on business sale, etc etc., then they definitely shouldn't be in business.

This is what I find interesting in that I cannot see how a background from working in a primarily audit setting for a final four firm seems to qualify so many people for exactly this job.

I mean no offence to anyone as this was almost always the traditional route taken by accountants however given that from the size of company dealt with by these firms it is unlikely that they will even have seen a set of accounts prepared under the FRSSE, never mind the tax issues that come with it.

[elainec100@cheapaccounting]

Blimey - just got back from weekend of walking (well - and eating & drinking!!) and had loads of pages to catch up on.

Just wanted to say before anyone asks:

All CheapAccounting accountants are UK based fully qualified members of a recognised UK accounting body.

[GaryMc]

This is what I find interesting in that I cannot see how a background from working in a primarily audit setting for a final four firm seems to qualify so many people for exactly this job.

I mean no offence to anyone as this was almost always the traditional route taken by accountants however given that from the size of company dealt with by these firms it is unlikely that they will even have seen a set of accounts prepared under the FRSSE, never mind the tax issues that come with it.

Depends on where you work Zeno. I was at Deloitte in Bristol (Corporation Tax department) and I worked on farmers who barely made anything all the way up to some very large companies - I had to do some discounted deferred tax on one :eek:. If you are outside of London/Reading/Manchester offices then it is more like a local firm but with huge resources to call on.

Saying that our department had a bigger turnover than the firm my wife worked for which is a Top 40 firm.

Only the collapse of one of the Big Four would prompt governments to look at stripping audit out of practices and into its own profession. At the moment, too many governments are advised by the Big Four for there to be any change.