Another dilemma

[VeryMark]

I've just been ripped off by a member of these forums.

They posted here with a problem to which I responded with free advice, and then, with their encouragement, gave a detailed quote and advice concerning trade mark registration.

I then discovered they had filed a UK trade mark application themselves, not using our services, which they did not tell us until afterwards when we had spent significant time quoting and advising.

Nothing wrong with that you might say and, of course, I wouldn't complain about anybody who decided to go with one of our competitors or do the job themselves or not have it done at all.

No, what rankles is that they have copied our proposed wording for the application word for word for the classes of the trade marks register they have applied in - in other words they have taken our work without paying for it.

This happens to be copyright infringement of course.

Now the value of what they have taken is at a guess around £90, and they have held out the hope of us doing other work, plus, frankly, I don't believe in wasting time getting het up or making mountains over molehills or provoking a row.

But it still rankles, and somehow I feel they ought not to be allowed to get away with it as a matter of principle.

[bwglaw]

Philip

Know how you feel.

In such circumstances I would raise an invoice for timespent, as you say 90GBP and demand payment since they have used your services to their advantage.

It is demoralising when professionals like us give valuable advice free and a client exploits it. It is clients like these that deter professionals like us from advising anyone for free in future.

If the person concerned has a conscience to please pay for the service you have respectfully received from a professional.

Jonathan

[Coding Monkey]

I fear it goes on more often than I'd like to believe. I don't give out quotes to people via e-mail without speaking to them first, in case they're just a competitor getting information. Yes, they still can be, but it's harder to get away with when you have landline numbers. I'm also quite weary of giving too detailed quotes.

[creacom]

I totally agree with the above. Bill them for your time in anycase. Thats most unprofessional of them.

"Time is money and money takes a lot of time" as my dad used to say.

And if you feel that you want to name and shame then go ahead and do it.

Jacqui

[VeryMark]

Thanks, Jonathan.

I believe in 'giver's gain', which is what BNI preaches, i.e. if you help people then it'll come back to you (preferably before you get to heaven lol).

Like you, I give a lot of initial advice for free and you win some lose some, but being led up the garden path does get up the nose slightly.

[fastfences]

Sorry to hear that, Philip. As you say, it goes on all the time. But the audacity (that's nerve, Jayne) of the person to copy word for word is really the pits.
I hope you can seek some recourse - or retribution!
Cheers, Nigel

[Rob Holmes]

I guess Philip if you wanted to pursue the copyright infringement then you would be totally within your rights to do so.

I guess thats the risk of helping people - we've had the same - given hours and hours of help with the promise of someone using us - but it comes to nothing and once they have our good recommendations they use someone cheaper.

You know it happens in business - it would be nice for people to be loyal but unfortunately some people bounce from one bit of free help to another until they have gathered all they need.

It's hard to spot them - especially when they are members here which adds a level of trust that otherwise wouldn't be there.

If it is any concellation (to you and Handson Group) we still plan to use you when out other biz goes ahead!

Rob

[VeryMark]

I could sue the pants off them - and, frankly, crossing a lawyer is just plain stupid lol (I've sued more people in more countries than most) - but I kind of think somehow it's naive ignorance mostly.

[Jayne]

Sorry to hear that, Philip. As you say, it goes on all the time. But the audacity (that's nerve, Jayne) of the person to copy word for word is really the pits.
I hope you can seek some recourse - or retribution!
Cheers, Nigel


Don't drag me into this, i'd never rip anyone off, that stinks!

Are you after a fight Nigel, because i'm big enough to give you a fight :lol:

Jayne

[Antonia @limeone.com]

This sort of behaviour does nothing to assist the professionals who resist providing free advice because one every now and again takes the proverbial.

Most lawyers have long memories for this sort of nonsense and maybe a strongly worded letter marking their card for infringement would be enough.

I did it once with a client asking for a public donation to my favourite charity in preference to a court case and it worked, duly seen in local rag handing over largeish cheque.

[crus]

I agree with the sentiments above.

I work to a logic now that I spend a solid hour with a client (sometimes a lot more) working out what they want to acheive, this kind of project planning etc can be priceless. I have a couple of times had no follow up but most see the benfit and utelise me to acheive the goals that myself and the client formulated.

Heres an idea, and a gesture to show how good some people are on this forum.

I know that the money isnt the issue, but I would happily punt a couple of quid of my paypal account towards the £90, which when acheived we could then have purchased a right to know who this person is to avoid being burn't ourselves.

Cheaper than a Credit Score and more reliable me thinks!

Hows that sound?

D

D

[bwglaw]

I could sue the pants off them - and, frankly, crossing a lawyer is just plain stupid lol (I've sued more people in more countries than most) - but I kind of think somehow it's naive ignorance mostly.

Because of our professional ethics we are not allowed to 'name and shame' and this would only make the matter far worse and most likely give them grounds to counterclaim for defamation thus writing off the debt.

I think us lawyers have to stick to our guns, principles and code of professional ethics - invoice 'em!. Include a firm covering letter and point out the fact that you became aware of them using your work. You know they won't employ your services again so you won't gain anyway. Hey, why am I telling you...you know all this ;)

There are a few people on here that enjoy having a lawyer for an enemy! For those reading this and thinking of challenging a lawyer or having a lawyer for an enemy - think again!

Your learned friend


Jonathan

[VeryMark]

Wow Crus, you've restored my faith in humanity just saying that.

And I like your suggestion too, Antonia, very good.

And Nigel and Jayne, this is my fight lol - please apologise for the misunderstanding Nigel, Jayne thinks you've suggested it's her, which of course it's not.

[MinuWeb]

Hi Philip,

Sorry to hear that, it is not nice to be taken advantage of like that.

Hope that they get the same treatment from a potential client themselves in the future !!

[crus]

No biggie, honest.

I can see Jonathon's pont of view, to date his assistance has been bang on the money.

thanks again Jonathon.

D

[Jayne]

Thank You Philip :D


We could have a game of hangman! How many letters in the name? We could guess it ourselves then and you haven't told :lol:

Jayne

[gordonthegofor]

sorry to hear about this plagiarism

trust is hard to earn easy to lose

[fastfences]

Thank You Philip :D


We could have a game of hangman! How many letters in the name? We could guess it ourselves then and you haven't told :lol:

Jayne

I would ASk 500 questions :wink:
cheers, Nigel

[bwglaw]

Of all the people I have advised on here, they all showed their appreciation merely by just saying thank you for looking into the matter goes a long way. I am happy to assist them again - you know who you all are!

Before I went overseas an American client wanted to claim sex discrimination against her employer but had no money. I was happy to take on as a conditional fee arrangement, which she signed. The client contacted the employer to accept a lower settlement and absconded. My bill for 750GBP remains unpaid! 10 hours work wasted!

We learn - I won't be too generous next time

[Mortime Business Software]

I remember a naughty shopkeeper who asked me for a quote for shop front signage. I gave him the quote, but he wanted scale layouts and designs to see what he was getting. He sounded pretty genuine, so I spent an afternoon producing them. He called round in the evening and collected them. He promised me the job, but said he needed to make some adjustments to the designs. Fair enough I thought, so I booked him in for the following week.

Four months later, and still no go-ahead. Obviously I had written him off by this time.

About 6 months later I was in his area quoting another job. I drove past the naughty shopkeeper's shop and saw his nice new signs - scaled up exactly from my designs, and with the same colour scheme!!

About three weeks later, after I had completed the other job, the naughty shopkeeper arrived at his shop one morning to find his signs, windows and front door covered in black enamel, paving paint! :)

Dave

[Claire B]

Sorry to hear that Phillip, you are very generous with your time and advise on here (which is why you were reccomended to me and is why I chose to use you :D )

Its a shame when someone takes advantage of the situation like that. :cry:

[Claire B]

Dave, you are a rascal! :D

(but I went to school in Middlesborough and seem to remember that all the boys were :wink: )

[Alpha]

Phillip

I would think that you should send a PM/ e mail to the member concerned pointing out your position (the fact that he has effectively used your work etc) and request that they consider paying you.

If they insist on totally ignoring you then I'm afraid the member should be named on the forums so that the bona fide membership are not taken advantage of.

We all give as much free advice as we can but there does come a point where each of us should expect to be paid for the work that we do.

[Mortime Business Software]

Dave, you are a rascal! :D

(but I went to school in Middlesborough and seem to remember that all the boys were :wink: )

I'm not actually from Middlesbrough. I'm from Blackpool. I have only lived here for the last four years because my Mum's side of the family and my half-brother are from here. The incident occured in Sydney when I had my signs and graphics biz.

But yes, there sure are some reprobates in this town! They're generally very friendly though, and I like them a lot.

Dave

[Pebble Communications]

That is soooo annoying but it happens when you provide a service that is basically your knowledge and experience. Has happened to me to - but not quite to the extent of them pinching the wording for something!

If you have to do this sort of thing when you pitch is it possible to include a confidentiality and copyright clause on the documents so that people can't use the info without your permission (when they become customers)?

[Jayne]

It's just a shame you cannot trust people anymore! Where have people's pride and morals gone, it's a disgusting thing to do to a forum member!

Jayne

[Rob Holmes]

I guess they just decided to try and save the fees.

It would have been nice to maybe just even call Philip and ask or email etc etc...

Anyway the forums are not the place for a public blood hunt to satisfy the blood thirsty, that has proven to end in disaster here time and time again - it usually ends with threads locked etc...

Rob

[DarrenC]

Phillip

I would think that you should send a PM/ e mail to the member concerned pointing out your position (the fact that he has effectively used your work etc) and request that they consider paying you.

If they insist on totally ignoring you then I'm afraid the member should be named on the forums so that the bona fide membership are not taken advantage of.

We all give as much free advice as we can but there does come a point where each of us should expect to be paid for the work that we do.

That's a good point - what about if the same happens to another member, who is kind enough to give away free advice? If they do it a first time, they will do it again.

[hunny]

Most of us in business come across this type of thing at some time or other, you expect it to a point and learn to identify these timewasters.
But to do this to a forum member is disgusting, I am for one really grateful for all the help I've received on here and only wish I could give a little more back in return .(anyone with a noise problem - feel free :D )
Anne :D :D

[VeryMark]

Rob, you are quite right - and I have no intention of naming the member concerned here.

And thank you learned friend, too. Yes, I did know it, Jonathan.

I'd just like to thank everyone who posted here - you are the reason I'll stay here and carry on advising people.

[ebonybailey]

I say name and shame them

[directmarketingadvice]

It's poor behaviour, for sure.

And incredibly short sighted.

I've had similar things happen to me twice in the last 12 months. As a consultant, it's a bit of an occupational hazard.

One person nicked my ideas without paying and tried a couple of them out for herself. However, she made a bunch of mistakes in how she used them (I had only given her the outline, not the details) and they didn't bring in much business.

She had been losing a lot of money and the last thing I heard, her business had gone part-time and she was working as an office temp 9-5.

On the flipside, I gave some very specific ideas (including the draft of a sales letter) for free to the MD of a decent sized company, knowing full well that he could have taken it and used it without paying me.

He was straight and we worked out a deal and are now working on different projects together. We expect this work's going to put at least £500,000 onto the value of his business when he sells it in a few years.

Now, he's a smart guy who knows that it's worth sharing the wealth to keep good people on your team.

And his commitment to reward people generously has meant that he has been able to quickly build up an excellent network of people (both in and outside his business) who are highly motivated to make his business a massive success.

And, in a few years, he's going to sell it for millions.

It's not so much karma, just intelligent business practice.

Steve

[Rob Holmes]

Anyway the forums are not the place for a public blood hunt to satisfy the blood thirsty, that has proven to end in disaster here time and time again - it usually ends with threads locked etc...

I say name and shame them

At the risk of repeating myself ;) ...

Anyway the forums are not the place for a public blood hunt to satisfy the blood thirsty, that has proven to end in disaster here time and time again - it usually ends with threads locked etc...


Crossguard has already said that he has no intention of naming and shaming which is the right decision.

Rob

[VeryMark]

What I think is instructive is reading about people who've had a similar problem and their experience and how they've dealt with it - which is the point of these forums of course.

[directmarketingadvice]

Hi Philip

I was thinking about this thread again this morning and remembered something someone told me that applies to these situations.

He had 3 rules which were:

(1) It's not about the principle.

You're responsible for your own morality, not for the morality of others. In life we have a limited amount of time and it's a waste to spend it trying to teach others a "lesson".

If you happen to have some extra time, spend it doing something good for someone good, you'll enjoy it more.

(2) It's about the money.

How much are you owed? How long would it take you to make that amount of money again?

If it's less or equal to the amount of time it would take to try to recover the money from the person who ripped you off, earn it from someone else.

You'll be guaranteed to get the money and you'll avoid the unpleasantness and stress.

(3) Let someone else do it.

He told the story of how he was in a bar and some drunk guy tried to pick a fight with him for no reason whatsoever.

He just got up and left. His view:

"I don't have to beat this guy up, someone else will do it for me.

If this guy has a habit of going out and picking fights in bars with strangers, some day he'll pick the wrong guy and get the crap beaten out of him.

Unfortunately, the guy who beats him up could end up being arrested, spending a night in the cells, maybe even convicted and sent to prison.

I'll let someone else take that risk."

In a business sense, the person who ripped you off may well end up being sued for ripping someone else off. You don't need to give up your time and spend your money on lawyers. Let someone else put in the effort.

I think Rob is right here.

You could have named the person, but you've taken the high road and I think the way you've discussed this has reflected well on you.

Steve

[VeryMark]

Thank you, Steve.

That sets out, I think, brilliantly, what was in the back of my mind more vaguely.

I think everyone should read what you've posted above.

[Mortime Business Software]

Phil. I have some black paving paint left over if you need it! :)

Dave

[VeryMark]

Get behind me Satan lol - You were very lucky, Dave.

[winton50]

Cracking post there Steve

I have a nasty habit of complaining that it is about the principle when all I want to do is get back at the person concerned.

What i have been trying to do (and your post reaffirms this) is think before I act and then act business not personal.

[Mortime Business Software]

Get behind me Satan lol - You were very lucky, Dave.

Maybe you're right about being lucky, but it was a carefully planned operation! I was a bit younger, and a bit nuttier then. Steve's advice is of course a lot more sensible, and I would have done exactly the same as you in this instance - i.e. asked what other people thought about naming and shaming this cad.

I thought about what I had done later, and due to the sneaky nature of the guy who ripped me off, I thought that maybe he suspected someone else who he had ripped off. People who do things like this usually make a habit of it, and eventually come unstuck.

Dave

[Alpha]

Steve

They are an excellent set of three principles however

4) As eloquently displayed in Marvel comics Spiderman #1 where Peter Parker having gained his powers allows a masked robber to escape the building because 'it was nothing to do with him'.

The robber escapes onto the street, shoots and kills his uncle.

He could have stopped him and has to spend the rest of his life living with that decision.

Phillip has been ripped off (its only a small amount) but the perpetrator can also do it to many other members which by naming him (Note it is not an intention to shame for any purpose) will be prevented.

It is possible that simply by posting on here Phillip may have prevented whoever it is from doing it again however, people who have no problems in doing this once are highly likely to conduct their business in the same way wherever possible.

I suppose the only other solution is for Phillip to PM us all to say who it is(or at least those of us who may come into contact with him), or it may be that the person is not a regular user of the forums (I sincerely hope not) in which case we may all be protected by that very fact.

I would also like to point out that we all took great pleasure in exposing an unscroupulous Dell sales rep and elsewhere the question of intent has been raised against another member.

In this respect I do not see how this situation is different and I do think that Rob and Steve are wrong in their thinking (My view only and not trying to be contentious in a hostile manner guys).

Anyway it is Phillips decision and to be honest he should not have even started this thread.

[Coding Monkey]

Why, I never. An accountant talking about comic books. They are real people after all ;)

[winton50]

Actually it reminds me of a guy who set up a magazine near us.

We supported him by placing an ad and gave him the copy.

He put the ad in the mag with the wrong phone number and four spelling mistakes. It looked awful.

I said I wanted the ad repeated again the next month for free as we wouldn't get any sales from it and it made our company look cheap and amateurish. I would then pay him fo rthe original ad (which I reckoned was a fair deal).

Two days later our blind at the front of the shop was slashed with a stanley knife.

Might not have been him but...

[Alpha]

Why, I never. An accountant talking about comic books. They are real people after all Wink


Tom I was an avid collector of Marvel comics in my teens and early twenties.

Love the films they are producing now and some of the cartoons are excellent as well.

[VeryMark]

The point Alpha makes is one that ocurred to me, i.e. that telling other people on UKBF might stop them being ripped off by the same person.

However, I can't possibly protect everybody, and nor can I stop this person doing or trying to do the same thing to other people.

I'm not Spiderman or Superman, and the crime comitted here is a civil not a criminal one, i.e. society has decided that it's a private not a public offence - we aren't dealing with an armed masked robber who should be locked up as a matter of public safety.

[Alpha]

I'm not Spiderman or Superman, and the crime comitted here is a civil not a criminal one, i.e. society has decided that it's a private not a public offence - we aren't dealing with an armed masked robber who should be locked up as a matter of public safety.

Phillip have you ever heard of parables :D

No it is not an armed masked robber that we are dealing with but the principle remains the same.

Some one obviously carries out their business activities in an unscrupulous way and whether you as someone who may prevent it happening to others, choose to do something or not is down to your conscience.

[Plastics Dave]

I have been ripped off by a small injection moulding company that is continually moving around the country from estate to estate, never paying any bills with landlords or suppliers and simply moving on to the next source of supply.
I along with many others have had judgement against them in the courts but it is simply a further waste of money to try to get anything back, the sums involved being so trivial. As I see it the principle here is the same, obtaining goods or services by deception. Had I known I would not of dealt with them. they only required small amounts, not enough to justify any searches and that is the way in which they trade. Their end product then was the freebies you find in your breakfast cereals. This was some time ago and left me feeling very bitter for having been abused. I wanted then to provide a database of known bad payers available to SME's I still think it is a good idea and I still think anybody behaving like this business to business should be named.
Regards to all and thanks for a very educational input.
Dave

[directmarketingadvice]

Alpha

The point you make is a logical counter to my former mentor's 3 rules.

And, maybe he now has added a 4th rule - "if possible, name and shame them on the internet".

(I worked under him in the 90's before either of us had really used the internet)

However, I'd guess he hasn't added that rule.

If they get down to public accusations, these things have a tendency to tar everyone involved.

I'm sure that those close to Philip will have their cards marked if necessary and word will get around.

Also, the person who did this is now in the difficult position that he/she doesn't know who knows what.

All this embarrasment and shoddiness just to save £90.

How stupid's that?

Steve

[SillyJokes]

Thought I had better post my support of Cross Guard quick lest anyone imagine it was me since I did recently post about trademarking.

I like the three principles mentioned and thought that although some may not agree with them they are a recipe for sanity.

[Alpha]

And, maybe he now has added a 4th rule - "if possible, name and shame them on the internet".

Steve I hope you misunderstand me and the intention behind it.

The prime intent is not to shame as no good will come of that and is counterproductive. I would rather not see anyones name splashed on the forums if at all possible which is why I originally suggested that attempts were made to sort it out and avoid a misunderstanding which could have serious consequences.

I also do not think that it negates the three principles that you have posted but rather augments them.

If numbers of decent people do not stand together then they will get walked all over as they will be seen as a soft touch. its a sad indictment of our society but the unscrupulous find some an easy touch and when there is no comeback it is even easier.

It is quite possible that whoever it is honestly did it without thinking and a simple apology would surely suffice (Which would come under the three rules stated).

I also admit that there is no real answer to name without shame and therefore would hope it is not neccesary to consider this course of action.

[Johnuk]

This is something that always winds me up!
My stance is not to give anything for free, apart from a general opinion or comment! If I have to spend more than 10 minutes, I will charge.

John

[directmarketingadvice]

Hi Alpha

I think my wording may have been poorly chosen.

I understood you and your motives and I don't have any argument with your point of view. It makes sense to make sure that no-one else in the forum suffers the same result from the same person.

My mentor was happy to warn the people he knew about cowboys. But those were private conversations with people he knew.

On a forum like this, anything posted becomes public and many of the readers will be "strangers". It is also said in front of the guilty party which can lead to mud-slinging and counter-accusations.

So, it's a very different situation.

And that's why I think Philip is right not to name names.

Steve

[bwglaw]

I fully support Philip's decision not to 'name' the person because he is a professional. The person who 'stole' his work is clearly not a professional.

Any lawyer worth their salt will not resort to naming a person who has failed to pay for services rendered, whether a member of this forum or not.

If a lawyer on here did name the person, for sure it will breach confidentiality and a lawyer does have a duty of care to his clients whether they have paid a fee or not.

If a practising solicitor on here named a person who has not paid for their service the individual concerned can make a complaint to The Law Society and have the solicitor's career in jeopardy.

Would you employ the services of a lawyer on here in full knowledge that the lawyer is not strictly confidential? It is a common expectation that lawyers should be confidential, as you would expect from a GP, Accountant etc.

I am of the view that Philip was entitled to start this thread as a 'businessman' sharing his experience of customers taking off with his work without paying. This is clearly a business issue, whether a lawyer or not.

Legal obligations and moral obligations are two different issues. Whether we are talking about a plumber not being paid is entirely different to a lawyer not being paid - a plumber does not have an implied duty of confidentiality.

Jonathan