Are SEO Companies Clever Con Men Or......

[RedEvo]

.....are website owners stupid?

I was reading another thread and somebody said something along the lines of 'there are millions of rubbish SEO companies'. I thought yes, there are. Then I thought why are there? Why are people finding it so easy to pull people's pants down and fleece them where SEO is concerned?

It's fair to say the SEO industry has a poor reputation but do website owners not carry some responsibility?

I'm suggesting people want to believe the blarney they hear from the snake oil SEO's rather than face the simple fact that on-line success takes time and effort.

People actually believe they can build a thirty bob website using Mr S(h)ite or similar and somehow magically they will be number one in Google when people type car insurance into Google.

I hate hearing about people getting ripped off but I'm almost as disappointed by the number of people who are allowing themselves to be ripped off. It's not just about ignorance, it's also about greed and stupidity on the part of the website owners.

Anyone else see this? Probably not :eek:

d

[nickjohnston]

Snake oil salesmen in every industry, right?

Surely down to a lack of knowledge on the part of website owners, and that is their own fault. But everyone wants a good price...

They'll come to the professionals eventually.

[Mystro]

Same rep as builders and many other industry's, there will always be some good some bad, and like builders you can get some convincing advice which may be why you chose them.

But you must remember some people can deliver what they say, some will try and fail, some will take your money and wont bother at all.

Its the business owners responsibility to research this matter before embarking on any kind of commitment.

As you rightly point out it takes time and that is what the business needs to be made aware of at the point of sale and buy into it

[mattsaw]

I think the biggest issue is that there is a huge knowledge gap between SEOs and business owners and marketing managers.

At the same time there is always a propensity to gravitate towards the best case scenarios - i.e. quick and easy results. It doesn't take much for the more shady side of the industry to use this to their advantage by promising unachieveable results and using the knowledge gap to blind people with 'science'

I would agree with you to an extent that some of the blame has to lie at the business owners door for not making more of an effort to educate themselves about SEO, they don't need to know the whole process, but it should be fairly simple to learn what are realistic expectations and to have some grasp of the process.

We actually produced a 'buyers guide' in an attemp to make their decision making process easier - http://www.datadial.net/blog/index.php/2008/09/18/seo-buyers-guide-free-download/

[RedEvo]

I take the point about a lack of knowledge or understanding but I also think website owners almost 'want' to be ripped off or should I say are willing to believe the unbelievable.

It's the same in the building trade. When someone quotes a price that's 10 grand less than anyone else would you not smell a rat? I would, but many would think yeehaa a bargain.

d

[RedEvo]

I would agree with you to an extent that some of the blame has to lie at the business owners door for not making more of an effort to educate themselves about SEO, they don't need to know the whole process, but it should be fairly simple to learn what are realistic expectations and to have some grasp of the process.

I agree with this up to a point. What I'm suggesting is even with no knowledge of SEO website owners should consider the bigger picture and common sense (which I know isn't that common) should play its part.

I just had a request in from a company which said, and this is quite common, "We need to achieve a first page google ranking for our keywords which are blah blah blah".

The site is rubbish both graphically and technically and it's fairly new, only months old, yet they need to be on page on of Google. You might argue they are just badly informed but I think there's more to it.

d

[sabz17]

I think with the internet being a fairly "new" sensation, many website owners have little understanding of what's fair and what's not. If an SEO company offers you the promise of being number one in the search engines for your top key phrases, and they give you all the spiel about how they are going to do it, you expect they know what they're talking about and since you will be paying them a large amount of money, you would morally expect them to get you to that number one position.

If website owners have no experience or knowledge to go by how can you expect them to know what's reasonable and what's not? they have nothing to compare it to!

You can get quotes from a number of builders some will be reasonable and some won't, so you can pick. If you go to an SEO company quotes will generally be of a similar price (from my experience anyway!...)

[SFD]

I agree with this up to a point. What I'm suggesting is even with no knowledge of SEO website owners should consider the bigger picture and common sense (which I know isn't that common) should play its part.

I just had a request in from a company which said, and this is quite common, "We need to achieve a first page google ranking for our keywords which are blah blah blah".

The site is rubbish both graphically and technically and it's fairly new, only months old, yet they need to be on page on of Google. You might argue they are just badly informed but I think there's more to it.

d

Why wouldn't they need to be on page one?

It makes me laugh more when people say 'my SEO guy is great, he got us from the bottom of page 9 to the top of page 2 and it only cost £x,xxx'

[mattsaw]

Why wouldn't they need to be on page one?

It makes me laugh more when people say 'my SEO guy is great, he got us from the bottom of page 9 to the top of page 2 and it only cost £x,xxx'

In my experience it's always better to focus on traffic and conversions than it it to use rankings as the key metric.

Generally there is a far better ROI to be had by targeting a wider range of niche phrases in the early stages of a campaign and then moving on to more generic phrases later once the site is better established.

[brownie]

I don't believe it is the website owners responsibility, the businesses I deal with are experts in running their own businesses, they are not technology experts.

They obviously need to embrace new technology, like the web, however they rely and trust others in our industry to help them with this.

How can they be expected to understand all of the bull that is thrown at them? I think it's disgracefull how many people proclaim to be experts in the IT Industry and clearly are not.

[sirearl]

.....are website owners stupid?

I was reading another thread and somebody said something along the lines of 'there are millions of rubbish SEO companies'. I thought yes, there are. Then I thought why are there? Why are people finding it so easy to pull people's pants down and fleece them where SEO is concerned?

It's fair to say the SEO industry has a poor reputation but do website owners not carry some responsibility?

I'm suggesting people want to believe the blarney they hear from the snake oil SEO's rather than face the simple fact that on-line success takes time and effort.

People actually believe they can build a thirty bob website using Mr S(h)ite or similar and somehow magically they will be number one in Google when people type car insurance into Google.

I hate hearing about people getting ripped off but I'm almost as disappointed by the number of people who are allowing themselves to be ripped off. It's not just about ignorance, it's also about greed and stupidity on the part of the website owners.

Anyone else see this? Probably not :eek:

d

sale of good act says a product must be fit for purpose.

If I went to a brain surgeon would I be discussing the finer points of surgery.?

I don't think its fair to expect your average business owner to understand SEO or computers in general.

Its hard enough for professionals to keep up.:)

Afraid at present there is no answer as it seems imposible to have a governing body.

But again I can buy a car and expect it to work without knowing how it works.;)

God knows what the solution is and I am always sorry to hear yet another person has paid out money for nothing,but to expect a business owner to know how it all works is way out of line in my opinion.

Earl

[Matt1959]

.



It's fair to say the SEO industry has a poor reputation but do website owners not carry some responsibility?





yes, everyone has a responsibility to be buyer beware - so what do we potential clients look for when choosing someone?

[RedEvo]

If website owners have no experience or knowledge to go by how can you expect them to know what's reasonable and what's not? they have nothing to compare it to!

This is my point. I would have thought common sense would at least suggest that getting a site to out rank other sites involves some work.

This post is particularly aimed at SEO's who are ripping people off. If an SEO is using language like 'we have a special relationship with Google' or 'we've got some special tricks that will move you site up the rankings' etc is it not at least reasonable to assume a sensible business person might be suspicious irrespective of their level of knowledge.

To me it's like people don't want to hear about the basic principles of SEO they actually want to listen to the snake oil brigade with their get rich quick schemes and this is why there are so many SEO con men/women.

d

[Ali-v-8]

Source of information is conflicted.
When a business owner looks for advertising he looks at price.
http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=135174&highlight=seo+pricing

I was once conned by a scam shown on "The Real Hustle". I was 18 at the time.
Now after watching that show I know how they did it.
Knowledge is power.
Problem is who provides the Knowledge.

[RedEvo]

but to expect a business owner to know how it all works is way out of line in my opinion. Earl

Never said that Earl. I'm alluding to the fact people are being gullible based on the core business principles of fear and greed. They want to believe £99 a month will make them No.1 in Google for the phrase 'sex toys' (first thing that came to mind....)

d

[brownie]

If an SEO is using language like 'we have a special relationship with Google' or 'we've got some special tricks that will move you site up the rankings' etc is it not at least reasonable to assume a sensible business person might be suspicious irrespective of their level of knowledge.

No it is not reasonable to assume the business owner would be suspicious, why should they be? :|

[Matt1959]

think you'd be surprised by the number of people who are happy to pay well - the stumbling block for these people is that they want to know that they are getting what they're paying for and its very hard to ascertain this before committing, in fact I'd say its almost impossible in many cases and therein lies alot of the problem - rather than blame gulible business owners, I'd say many providers do a rubbish job at selling themselves or at least getting the right message across

[sirearl]

Never said that Earl. I'm alluding to the fact people are being gullible based on the core business principles of fear and greed. They want to believe £99 a month will make them No.1 in Google for the phrase 'sex toys' (first thing that came to mind....)

d

greed is the basis for most cons.:)

and cheap often wins over quality.

Earl

[Mystro]

Well TBH with all the changes Especially Google implements you are asking a million dollar question, how can you charge for somthing that is going to change before you finish it.

A good SEO will check out the competition and work a price out from there, all bar a few people i have contacted have given me a over inflated price Just last week 8k to get me to page 1 of Google for Car leasing, 5k for contract hire (Lol i was already in 4th palce when that quote come in)

Looking at the Industry its near on impossible to quote decent figures because of the continous changes and time it takes, but what definatly dont help are the leachers that see a fast buck and exploit people

Getting Links takes time, waiting for the links to get picked up takes time, and that time has to be costed, but 1 thing this industry needs is some register where people can check your work out and then make their own decisions

Pay cheap pay twice

[awebapart.com]

I'm suggesting people want to believe the blarney they hear from the snake oil SEO's rather than face the simple fact that on-line success takes time and effort.
...
I hate hearing about people getting ripped off but I'm almost as disappointed by the number of people who are allowing themselves to be ripped off. It's not just about ignorance, it's also about greed and stupidity on the part of the website owners.
To say that it is just the SEO industry that is guilty of selling snake oil and goldrush maps is a bit unfair. Companies in every part of the whole internet industry (http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=1117640) are telling people they can help them make money or make more money by getting online or improving their online presence. Web designers, graphic designers, web hosts, marketing gurus, copywriters, eshop suppliers, seo guys, ppc guys, advertisers and the whole associated industry. From the smallest of companies to the biggest.

Google for the following terms and in most cases you will see Google trying to sell you adwords:

get rich quick
make money fast
make money online

So that's the internet industry covered. Look outside the industry and you'll find this practice elsewhere. It's always been around. As long as there have been business people thinking they can make money, there have been other service businesses making money off those businesses, by 'helping' them to be more successful. The prime offline example is newspaper/magazine/directory advertising... "My advert is not working", "You need to spend more money to get a bigger ad".

[petera]

Companies who are new to SEO, and who don't appreciate it's full potential for their business, are more likely to get duped. These companies are more likely to base their decision on price because they are understandably tentative about spending big bucks on a marketing activity that they are not familair with and perhaps don't fully understand. Consequently they adopt the attitude of 'why pay £1000 per month when this guy says he can do the same job for £250'.

Those companies who understand that their website has the potential to be their most powerful marketing and sales tool, and who fully embrace digital marketing, are far less likely to get ripped off.
It comes down to trust, understanding and commitment in my opinion. If a company is committed to achieving ranking success then they will look for a quality SEO provider and pay what is required.

[RedEvo]

No it is not reasonable to assume the business owner would be suspicious, why should they be? :|

I would be, but that's why I asked the question and posted this thread, I'm interested.

I still believe SEO is 'enjoying' the reputation it's got at least in part because some website owners are stupid and there will always be plenty of people queuing up to relieve stupid people of their money. It's like people who pay up front for a website, I don't get that either :)

d

[RedEvo]

Well TBH with all the changes Especially Google implements you are asking a million dollar question, how can you charge for somthing that is going to change before you finish it.

This isn't really the case.

d

[Ali-v-8]

Today I had a client cancel at the last moment.
He wanted a managed ppc campaign.
I suggested an initial test of £300+vat to see how it would run for chosen terms.
I explained how it worked and he said he only wanted to try a bit to see if it worked. I told him he would appear so long as he had budget.
My traffic and cost guesstimate should have covered him for 7-10 days.
His reasons for cancelling is that he has been offered £119 a month to be number one guaranteed.
I wished him good luck and said to monitor his positions every day.

What can i say. I cant be bothered trying to convince someone of the fool hardiness they are entering.

[mattsaw]

If I went to a brain surgeon would I be discussing the finer points of surgery.?



No, but I would at least try to get a recommendation from someone that had used one. Ask for a face to face consultation or try to speak to their old patients.

I may even Google their name to see what that turns up.

I would probably do that for most services that I use these days, everything from builders to brain surgeons.

Any company looking to employ an SEO should be doing the same, a little due-dilligence can save a lot of money and more importantly time being wasted.

[Matt1959]

His reasons for cancelling is that he has been offered £119 a month to be number one guaranteed.
I wished him good luck and said to monitor his positions every day.

.

I am amazed that you cannot explain to a client the benefits/ disadvantages of using a particular provider in such a way they understand. Most if not all people are receptive in the end - I'm gob smacked you can just let a potential client walk like this:|

[RedEvo]

I am amazed that you cannot explain to a client the benefits/ disadvantages of using a particular provider in such a way they understand. Most if not all people are receptive in the end - I'm gob smacked you can just let a potential client walk like this:|

I'm with Ali-v-8 on this one. Some clients are simply not worth it. I've even sacked clients, life's too short :)

d

[Matt1959]

I'm with Ali-v-8 on this one. Some clients are simply not worth it. I've even sacked clients, life's too short :)

d

well, if you have plenty of work I guess thats fair enough, also if the vibes are negative then its more than a money thing and I understand that as well...

[Andycal]

I am amazed that you cannot explain to a client the benefits/ disadvantages of using a particular provider in such a way they understand. Most if not all people are receptive in the end - I'm gob smacked you can just let a potential client walk like this:|

I can understand completely, some people just aren't worth the effort. If the client gets a glazed look in their eye when you mention paid vs organic search then it's time to move on.

[brownie]

well, if you have plenty of work I guess thats fair enough, also if the vibes are negative then its more than a money thing and I understand that as well...

I'm with both Aliv-8 and Evo, you quickly learn to get rid of some customers and move forward with the ones you can work with.

[Chris Ashdown]

The whole internet is filled up with masses of 2 year experts and in some cases 2 month experts, and how do you sort them out, (and how are you an expert in this time frame, but thats another story)

Many designers and SEO experts have very limited real experience in design and are the self taught, some are great and learnt a lot some very limited and just made a couple of crap sites

Some have a vast knowledge and could always find work in the leading companies of their field.

Trouble is how do you tell who is what

Many see names on forums and assume the more often they see them the better they are, some people also have very low understanding and give praise if they get to number 1 for "Gravediggers based in Acle" realistically not to difficult for most SEO's.

Then you have companies who try and lock you into long auto re-signing contracts without a trial period to see how clever they are, anyone heard of the company "it's Cold Outside" you soon get hot under the collar after the first phone call

Rant over

[directmarketingadvice]

I think the biggest issue is that there is a huge knowledge gap between SEOs and business owners and marketing managers.

I'd agree.

There are a number of SEOs on this forum and, as a non-SEO, the only way I can tell who is for real is by looking at the rankings they've achieved for their clients.

But even that takes skill - the ability to tell what rankings are or aren't competitive.

Oftentimes being #35 out of 23,000,000 in one market is a lot harder than being #5 out of 125,000,000 in another.

I've been taught what to look for when looking at the strength of a market. Most business owners haven't.

And, without that information, how can a business owner possibly choose wisely?

Steve

PS Clearly there are also a number of people who are there for the taking. We see this when people talk about taking up those "guaranteed top sponsored listings for £100" deals.

So it's not just an SEO issue.

[sirearl]

I'd agree.

There are a number of SEOs on this forum and, as a non-SEO, the only way I can tell who is for real is by looking at the rankings they've achieved for their clients.





On the money Steve allied to looking at the value of that market .

Also the wide range of products across various industries they achieve rankings for.

There is also the area where a good SEO will know if a business is viable and will benefit from the cost of SEO and advise the client if the business is in there opinion a non starter.

Earl

[Webtistic]

I'd agree.

PS Clearly there are also a number of people who are there for the taking. We see this when people talk about taking up those "guaranteed top sponsored listings for £100" deals.

So it's not just an SEO issue.

Fully agree Steve.

Just look at the number of people who have opted for the ICO scam on this forum alone!

[I, Brian]

It's astonishing when we get people join UKBF claiming to offer SEO services - and then ask about how to do basic SEO!!

[Webtistic]

It's astonishing when we get people join UKBF claiming to offer SEO services - and then ask about how to do basic SEO!!

Yeah, and funnily enough, these are the exact people offering the earth for £250.00!

[RedEvo]

It's astonishing when we get people join UKBF claiming to offer SEO services - and then ask about how to do basic SEO!!

I've lost count of the number of requests for SEO reviews we've had from businesses who advertise SEO services on their sites :)

d

[Newky]

Never said that Earl. I'm alluding to the fact people are being gullible based on the core business principles of fear and greed. They want to believe £99 a month will make them No.1 in Google for the phrase 'sex toys' (first thing that came to mind....)

d

Is that a window into your mind? :p

[RedEvo]

Is that a window into your mind? :p

Absolutely!

:)

d

[bluedreamer]

It's astonishing when we get people join UKBF claiming to offer SEO services - and then ask about how to do basic SEO!!
You should see them on webmaster forums! Hardly a day goes by without some wannabe "SEO" posting a question about something very basic like "how do I get backlinks?" - and most amusingly having a link to "Web design and SEO comany" as their sig link. Of course we all know this is mostly forum link spamming, but the endless deleting of threads does get tiring.

Unfortunatly it's these sort of people who have tarnished genuine search marketing businesses.

[zigojacko]

You should see them on webmaster forums! Hardly a day goes by without some wannabe "SEO" posting a question about something very basic like "how do I get backlinks?"

It's been getting a lot like that on this forum over the past few weeks actually. You can spot them a mile off.