Eastern European workers...ASSET OR LIABILITY?

[linmel]

Speaking to various business colleagues in various kinds of small businesses it would appear that most of them are having issues to deal with them from poor skills and poor attitude.

Many of the workers have limited grasp of english but seems to know about employment law and their rights. They usually wait for a first opportunity to put in a claim to employment tribunals. I know of a number of on going cases where groups of these workers have ganged together to make up a case. some have already won big payouts!

I would like to hear good and bad experiences from other business owners.

[Azam.net]

You can't generalise as there are always exceptions, but in my experience - and various business colleagues I have - Eastern Europeans work harder than British workers.

I have just returned from a restaurant where the waiter said he often worked 90 hours a week; similarly I know many Asian workers who do those kind of hours (look at those Asian corner shops which are often from 7am to 9pm); do you know many British employees who would work those kind of hours?

Was reading an article in the weekend papers about a British employer bemoaning lack of work ethic in the UK.

+ check out this books (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/books/184112656X/reviews/202-9706824-5046267)

which says e.g.:

"Here are some astonishing statistics about office life you probably never knew:
*40 per cent of all casual drugs users in the US (people who use drugs just once a month) still choose to do it at work. 19.6 per cent of people who take drugs at work do so at their workstation.
*One in three mid-week visitors to the theme park Alton Towers has taken the day off work on a dishonest pretext.
*One in five US workers has had sex with a co-worker during work hours. Full sex, that is. 44 per cent of men and 35 per cent of women have had at least some sexual contact at work.
*One third of UK young professionals are hungover at least twice a week on working days. Two thirds admitted to having called in sick due to alcohol at least once in the previous month.
*70 per cent of Internet porn sites are accessed during the 9 to 5 working day.
*More than half of the UK's 14.5 million pet owners say they would need between two and five days off work to grieve for a dead pet, while 10 per cent said they would need as much as two weeks.
*Monday (23 per cent) and Friday (25 per cent) are the days most commonly taken off sick by UK employees. Wednesday is the most rarely taken (8 per cent).
*UK doctors receive 9 million 'suspicious' or 'questionable' requests each year for sick notes"

At the same time, I do know that many British workers do work hard and long hours. I don't know what the reality is, so I'd be interested to hear about experiences other employers have had.

[KM-Tiger]

Eastern Europeans work harder than British workers.
That might be true, but nothing IMHO beats the Australians. They really do expect to do a day's work for a day's pay, and are unhappy if they cannot.

[linmel]

Most people who are self employed do work harder than the PAYE associates.

thanks for the astonishing statistics. it was a good read. Most east europeans may work harder than the british workers because they are not entitled to state benefits.

However when they are entitled to state benefits they may choose a more laxed attitude towards work.

They choose to assert their rights at work more aggressively then others as they very well know that the current employment legislation is strongly in favour of the employee.

[Mortime Business Software]

You can't generalise as there are always exceptions, but in my experience - and various business colleagues I have - Eastern Europeans work harder than British workers.

I have just returned from a restaurant where the waiter said he often worked 90 hours a week; similarly I know many Asian workers who do those kind of hours (look at those Asian corner shops which are often from 7am to 9pm); do you know many British employees who would work those kind of hours?

So why don't they stay at home and work harder at fixing up the sorry states of their own countries?

You're telling the original poster not to generalise, but that is exactly what you are doing.

Sorry if I sound aggressive, but I am sick to the teeth of being told I must not say anything which might offend ethnic groups, immigrants, etc., and I have to sit here and listen to shite like this.

Dave

[bwglaw]

So why don't they stay at home and work harder at fixing up the sorry states of their own countries?

A very good point indeed. I used to share a large house and most were occupied by Polish people. I did not like the people living there. However, I saw them working very long hours. I once asked them, why have you come into the UK and work long hours. They all said that their family need money and they send it to Poland. One of them was a father of 2 and he left his family behind to work in the UK and send them money. He also said that he plans to return to Poland once he has raised enough money.

I am sick to the teeth of being told I must not say anything which might offend ethnic groups, immigrants, etc...

People should realise that race discrimination legislation applies to everyone, and I even thought about bringing a claim against an EU member state for discriminating me on the grounds of my nationality. It seems that only, or by majority of Asians or Black people that bring a claim for race discrimination, when other people should consider bringing a claim under the same legislation.

(I am not implying that anyone is discriminating against anyone here, but merely making a comparative point)

Going back to the statistics posted by Azam. Interesting indeed. However, Azam, you have quite wrongly assumed and quite possibly implied that 'UK Employees', 'US Workers, 'UK Young Professionals' are not from 'ethnic groups'. Your post gives me the impression that when you say 'British workers' you imply white people, or a specific group of people, by seperating them from 'asian workers'. Some 'asian workers' can be British, can they not?

[directmarketingadvice]

most of them are having issues to deal with them from poor skills and poor attitude.

I think you'd have to generalise to a great degree to answer this question.

I think a lot of E Europeans who come here are quite willing to work long hours for minimum wage and live a very low standard of living just to keep every penny the possibly can to take back to their own countries, where that money will go much further.

And it's their right to do so.

As for being generally hard workers, I have czech friends and spent a week going around different parts of the Czech republic and I have to say, I was amazed and the poor level of customer service in many places and the sheer indifference and disinterest many employees showed towards their customers.

Maybe this attitude is a hangover from growing up in communist times.

I've also met a lot E Europeans over here and, although many have a good attitude towards work (hard working and enterprising), a number of them seem to be happy to be at work for long hours but will do as little as possible while they're actually there.

However, I should also point out that some of the people who had that attitude seemed to be in minimum wage (or lower, and being paid cash in hand) jobs where they were treated with a lot less respect by their employers than a British person would expect.

Would you knock yourself out for a boss who treated you liek a second class citizen?

Steve

[Azam.net]

I have to sit here and listen to shite like this

I apologise for posting "shite"; everything I wrote was absurd: Eastern European in Britain do not generally work long hours and it is a complete myth that Asian corner shops are open for longer hours than used to be the case when 'native' British workers were at the helm, yes, they close during the week at 5pm, 12 noon on Wednesdays and all day Saturday and Sunday, as used to be in the 'good old days'. Also, the waiter was lying about working 90 hours a week and every statistic in that book is a complete fabrication.

Thank you for setting me right. I'm particularly impressed that you did it in such an eloquent way and I would urge you not to put that unique talent to waste; you aren't, by any chance, a descendant of Winston Churchill are you?

[Pebble Communications]

Well said Azam.

Hey, if we don't offer the chance for people to come and live and build lives here, then we shouldn't expect the same in return.

Come back all you lazy English watsits set up on the Costas, in the USA, Australia, those taking advantage of the relative wealth of the Brits in countries such as Thailand (you know they only go there to lay on a beach all day, disgusting) and the white English man I know who is emigrating with his family to Nigeria had better change his plans then?

[Pebble Communications]

Ah, looking at the other posts, Limnel has a problem with eastern European workers he employs who want to be paid when they are 'on call' overnight...

[Mortime Business Software]

it is a complete myth that Asian corner shops are open for longer hours than used to be the case when 'native' British workers were at the helm, yes, they close during the week at 5pm, 12 noon on Wednesdays and all day Saturday and Sunday, as used to be in the 'good old days'.


I didn't say that. If you're going to resort to putting words into my mouth, then it's pointless arguing with you.

But at the time, this worked and allowed shopkeepers to take breaks from their work. I believe most women were housewives then. They had more children and used to look after them at home while the men went out to work. Therefore they had plenty of time to go shopping.

Nowadays women also work and the shopping has to be done outside these hours. Also, fridges and freezers are a lot more prevalent now, hence the proliferation of the hypermarket and the habit of the 'once-a-week' shopping spree.

Most of the Asian shopkeepers I've seen don't really do very much work as far as I can see. They just seem to sit behind the counter selling stuff whilst watching TV and gossiping. Every now and then they call in some scivvy to fill the shelves.

I believe that most shopkeepers, no matter what their race, would have taken advantage of the new opening hours because they included the times when shops would naturally be at their busiest. And I can't ever remember the shops being closed on Saturdays.


Also, the waiter was lying about working 90 hours a week and every statistic in that book is a complete fabrication.


There are lies, damned lies and statistics.

When someone tells you they work 90 hours per week, do you really believe them? Are they working 90 hours, or are they just at their place of work for many of those hours? I reckon the latter is true in the majority of cases.

For the ones that do accomplish this, it can only continue for so long before they eventually become disinterested in the work and burn out, at which stage I would question the quality of the work.

Perhaps many of them should learn how to work smarter instead of harder.


Thank you for setting me right. I'm particularly impressed that you did it in such an eloquent way and I would urge you not to put that unique talent to waste; you aren't, by any chance, a descendant of Winston Churchill are you?

What has Winston Churchill got to do with this argument??? I have no idea why you would mention him, but it sounds like you're trying equate his behaviour with mine. In this case, thank you for the compliment, although I hardly deserve it because I believe that Churchill was one awesome individual.

Or could you be trying to insult one of our greatest national heroes?

Dave

[bwglaw]

Dave, upon reading Azam's last post I think by the tone of it he was being sarcastic that the waiter was lying (etc)

If Junior Doctors are working 100 hours a week as was once reported, why cannot others work just as many hours?

[Pebble Communications]

I know someone, who came to this country 9 years ago, who runs his own business (not a shop by the way) and regularly works 87-92 hours a week. I know these are definitely his working hours absolutely and he is working non-stop through that whole time. Sounds impossible? Not when the success of your business and your whole future depends on it. Yes, he is often exhausted, and I know I would not be able to cope with that myself. In three years he has gone from being a part-time employee for someone to running his own professional practice with three other staff. Hats off to him and I think the UK would be better with even more of the same!

[Mortime Business Software]

If Junior Doctors are working 100 hours a week as was once reported, why cannot others work just as many hours?

I've seen a few reports about how the quality of work done by those hard-working doctors is sub-standard. This is not because they are incompetent, but rather because they are overworked and demoralised. I've also seen some interviews with doctors who say they are leaving their beloved hospitals because of this.

Dave

[Mortime Business Software]

I know someone, who came to this country 9 years ago, who runs his own business (not a shop by the way) and regularly works 87-92 hours a week. I know these are definitely his working hours absolutely and he is working non-stop through that whole time. ...
... Hats off to him and I think the UK would be better with even more of the same!

Well I think most of the UK would be thoroughly demoralised if the population was subjected to what I define as "work" for such long hours.

I define "working" as being engaged mentally, or mentally and physically with the task at hand.

Sorry, but I cannot believe that anyone can work "non-stop" for so many hours. Regular breaks of a sufficient duration are absolutely non-negotiable if quality is to be produced, and the morale of the worker maintained.

I would even go as far as to assert that any meaningful concentration can only be exerted for a matter of minutes by any human brain before a break is necessary to maintain quality.

Dave

[Pebble Communications]

Well he toddles off for a 5 minute tea break at regular intervals but that is about it at the moment. His clients are happy with his work and he has to provide it to externally audited standards, so he is managing to keep the quality consistently high. I couldn't do it. When I get tired I start to make mistakes, but he does seem to be able to keep it all together somehow. Not his lifestyle of choice, of course, and he hopes to be able to live and work in a much more normal way in 6 months or so! But it shows that it can be done when you really have to.

[Cornish Steve]

Come back all you lazy English watsits set up on the Costas, in the USA
Well, I don't regard myself as lazy, but I have lived and worked in the US for almost 20 years. This country thrives on immigrants; in fact, almost everyone living here was an immigrant at some point or other. What characterises most is their willingness to work hard and to make the most of their opportunity to escape hard times elsewhere. All credit to them.

Unfortunately, not everyone can be tarred with the same brush. I'm sure that some people take advantage of a nation's generosity and humanity when it opens its arms to the oppressed overseas. That, unfortunately, is the price to be paid. We'll never know in advance who will work hard and contribute to society and who will lounge around and be a drain on national resources. Should we be liberal and accept too many people, or be strict and accept too few?

[Pebble Communications]

Hi Steve,

That post of mine you quoted was entirely tongue in cheek! I certainly don't believe that immigrants anywhere are inherently lazy, unemployable or anything. I was just extending the 'logic' of the previous post...

Personally I'm on the liberal side.

[bwglaw]

I believe workers who are deemed 'second class citizens' including foreign workers, disabled people, asian and black people have to work much harder than others to prove that their origin, race or disability has no interference on their ability to do a good job. They are forced by society to work long hours or to go at lengths to keep a job.

[fastfences]

I believe workers who are deemed 'second class citizens' including foreign workers, disabled people, asian and black people have to work much harder than others to prove that their origin, race or disability has no interference on their ability to do a good job. They are forced by society to work long hours or to go at lengths to keep a job.

No way, Jonathon. They grow up in an environment where they're prepared (not forced) to devote themselves to the task at hand, no matter if it takes 8, 10, 12 or 14 hours. They wear their pride in their hands and continue to contribute until the task is complete.
cheers, Nigel

[bwglaw]

I believe workers who are deemed 'second class citizens' including foreign workers, disabled people, asian and black people have to work much harder than others to prove that their origin, race or disability has no interference on their ability to do a good job. They are forced by society to work long hours or to go at lengths to keep a job.

No way, Jonathon. They grow up in an environment where they're prepared (not forced) to devote themselves to the task at hand, no matter if it takes 8, 10, 12 or 14 hours. They wear their pride in their hands and continue to contribute until the task is complete.
cheers, Nigel

Well, as a disabled person I feel I have to work much harder to prove to non-disabled people/employers that I can do just a good job. I am speaking from personal experience.


Jonathan

[fastfences]

Fair enough. I was speaking from a 'race' perspective. My wife is from Cebu, in the Philippines. Through her and my four visits to her family I have learnt of the work ethic to which I referred. I have seen this same work ethic evidenced by many of our 'poorer' neighbours.
Perhaps another instance where 'generalising' can convey the wrong image. :wink:
Cheers, Nigel

[bwglaw]

I have a Georgian wife.

Perhaps another instance where 'generalising' can convey the wrong image

I agree entirely which is why I tried to give a somewhat balanced view on this topic.

[Pebble Communications]

And the chap I mentioned is my 'significant other!' so I can vouch for his hours and quality of work!

Aren't we a cosmopolitan lot! No wonder we were all up in arms over this thread...

[Ian J]

*One in five US workers has had sex with a co-worker during work hours. Full sex, that is. 44 per cent of men and 35 per cent of women have had at least some sexual contact at work.


Interesting statistics. If 35% of women have had some sexual contact with a man at work, are some of the women doing it with more than one man which will account for the difference or are the extra men doing it with each other.

I think we should be told

[bwglaw]

I think the statistics are flawed

[fastfences]

*One in five US workers has had sex with a co-worker during work hours. Full sex, that is. 44 per cent of men and 35 per cent of women have had at least some sexual contact at work.


Interesting statistics. If 35% of women have had some sexual contact with a man at work, are some of the women doing it with more than one man which will account for the difference or are the extra men doing it with each other.

I think we should be told

I think the stats' are about the same here. It would certainly explain why one can never find staff when they're wanted :wink: .
Cheers, Nigel

[Pebble Communications]

Doesn't surprise me in the least. Some of the stuff going on at places I have worked at (sex, drugs and rock and roll) would have been absolutely hair-raising to the bosses, who lived in blissful ignorance!

Still, I wonder what they mean by sexual contact? Being America they probably count a friendly kiss on the cheek...

[Cornish Steve]

Being America they probably count a friendly kiss on the cheek...
You're right that the US is very strict about this.

I once had to attend an HR session about sexual harrassment; it was quite revealing. I would never have thought that some of the examples given would make a woman feel awkward in the workplace; giving a colleague a hug was one of them. Nowadays, I am doubly careful about what I do and say.

[Pebble Communications]

I'd say it rather depends, which makes it hard for you chaps to decide whether it is safe or not.

Getting a hug off someone you genuinely like and is a 'work-friend' is one thing, getting a hug of an incredibly cute and hunky young stranger is also ok by me....being hugged by some grubby, greasy, smelly person, or one who uses it as an excuse for a bit of a rub is absolutely not!

Men I really hate don't actually touch you they just spend the whole conversation 'looking' at you in a certain way. We had a sleeze bag tradesman in the office one day who, everytime a woman went through the room, stopped working and looked her slowly up and down. If you had to talk to him he spent the entire time staring at your chest. After one day of that we complained to our boss and he got on to the company and told them to send someone else in future. Creepy!

At least if a man touches you inappropriately you can kick him in the shins or something. Unless it's your boss I suppose, which would be a whole other problem for you.