Webdesigner or SEOer or Copwriter

[Strontium Dog]

Heres the paradox:

1.To have a functioning website you need a webdesigner.

2. To generate traffic you need SEO.

3. To sell stuff once people get there you need good copy.

Whilst I can see people saying they combine the roles of web design SEO, are there many who also write great copy?

Do people put too much effort into parts 1 and 2, and innsufficient into 3? Who do you engage to ensure your website does all 3?

[Faevilangel]

It's better to have a 'pro' at each one that a man of all trades.

I do webdesign mainly and I do the on-site seo basics but if a client was a huge amount of seo done then I get a pro into do it. Same with copy, I can make ammendments to their text to be more responsive but writing a whole copy for them, I can't so I would get a pro in.

[philbanks]

Web copy is deceptively difficult to get right. Most people think they can do it, but they can't.

Try a marketing / PR agency that specialises in the area. They might also throw in a press release or two to help drive traffic to your site. This is often the sort of task that attracts grant assistance, so check with your local business and enterprise bods before you start work.

Be very careful who you hire to do SEO though - getting that wrong can have serious consequences.

Best of luck
Phil

[simpleitsolutions]

While my company specialises in custom web development we do work very closely with a PR and Marketing wizard (who works from the same office space!); should any of our clients require help with copywriting and SEO we outsource the work straight to Laura! If you want more info, just drop me a PM.

Regards,

Graham.

[sirearl]

Heres the paradox:

1.To have a functioning website you need a webdesigner.

2. To generate traffic you need SEO.

3. To sell stuff once people get there you need good copy.

Whilst I can see people saying they combine the roles of web design SEO, are there many who also write great copy?

Do people put too much effort into parts 1 and 2, and innsufficient into 3? Who do you engage to ensure your website does all 3?

You have missed the most important 2 elements.

A good product at the right price.

Design is not that important.

and with the right product neither is copy.:)

Earl

[toon-andy]

Assuming you have marketable product at a competitive price, and assuming you know enough about your product to effectively describe it - then the most important thing in my opinion is getting your site found, and then second to that having a professional design which gives confidence immediately to the prospective buyer.

First impressions count, but you won't have any first impressions if no one can find the site - hence a good SEO optimiser and search engine friendly site is vital.

[NextPoint]

All parts of the process are as important as each other:

* No point in having a great design if nobody finds your website.

* No point in having great content if it is not presented to give a professional impression and complemented by design that emphasises the content messages.

* No point in having people find your great looking website if it is littered with spelling mistakes or difficult to interpret the content.


Failure on any of these points will lead to a website that doesn't generate enquiries or make sales. You can also add the following to the list:


*No point in having people visit a great website if you don't have a strategy for how your website is meant to be used in your business.

* No point in having people visit a great website if it doesn't have the features to enable them to do what you need them to do - e.g. make enquiry, purchase a product, register for newsletter, sign up for an account, etc.

[sirearl]

All parts of the process are as important as each other:



Disagree ,having a good product and having people able to find it in order to obtain it.

Would seem to be the prime importance to me.?

Earl

[NextPoint]

Disagree ,having a good product and having people able to find it in order to obtain it.

Would seem to be the prime importance to me.?

Earl
I will agree with you on having a great product - but that only helps slightly (unless an extreme bad product) make the others more effective. We've all heard of the Dreamcast and Betamax to name a few - both superior products in their day, let down by poor marketing. I would go as far as to say that businesses that produce the best products are not usually the ones who rely as much on marketing and therefore don't usually thrive, whereas those with inferior products are often very good at marketing - Windows and Internet Explorer are all I need to say on that one.

[toon-andy]

Sir Earl - Totally agree with you.

The benefit of being selling online gives a more level playing field in that multiple sellers can sell similar or the same product but being able to find it quickly and look professional on first impression gives the competitive edge. Difficult to quantify the marketing power and the might of Sega, Sony or Microsoft - especially if trying to compete from your garage, spare bedroom or 200,000 sq feet unit.

[Strontium Dog]

Sireearl and toon - andy; Betamax was a great product, and people could certainly find it, but the other sides "sales copy" was better !

[1weekSEO]

Before I fell into SEO my background was in media advertising, so writing and composing enticing copy was the bottom line of getting a response to adverts in the newspaper title I was selling into.

Then I worked for myself selling on eBay for 2 years.

After that I took on an eMarketing role which led to absorption of SEO knowledge, so in my case:

I do not know how to design websites / maintain them (other than in an admin tool)
I do know how to write great copy, and I am confident with my grammar and punctuation
I am confident with my SEO, recently attended my 2nd training day and felt happy when I came out that I was doing everything right
And if I do have a question I come to this forum first for help :)

I think it would be rare to find someone that is knowledgeable in all 3 areas, but I think 2 out of 3 is acheivable without compromise.

To employ 3 separate people to carry out their tasks would not be as cost effective as employing 2 when one person can wear different hats with ease...

[directmarketingadvice]

You have missed the most important 2 elements.

A good product at the right price.

Utter nonsense.

What you never seem capable of grasping is that people don't buy because of the product, they buy what they believe about that product.

If you're selling stuff where the selling has been done for you - other people's brand items - and all you're doing is taking orders from people who have already decided to buy, then the price is one of the most important things.

(Maybe the 3rd most important thing.)

But, for everyone else, it's the copy that establishes the value and it's the value that determines what you can charge.

Steve

[sirearl]

But, for everyone else, it's the copy that establishes the value and it's the value that determines what you can charge.

Steve

Oh silly me I thought it was the product and the demand for that product that determined the value.

Earl

[directmarketingadvice]

Oh silly me I thought it was the product and the demand for that product that determined the value.

Interesting... you seem to have changed half of your "product and price" model.

Now it's "demand for the product", not the product itself.

Here's a question: there are two accountants, AccountantA and AccountantB. AccountantB charges 20% more than AccountantA.

Whose services are more in demand?

And why?

Steve

[Scott-CopyandDesign]

You have missed the most important 2 elements.

A good product at the right price.

Design is not that important.

and with the right product neither is copy.:)

Earl

How does the visitor know that it's a good product? How does the visitor know that it's the right product? They read information about it, i.e. the copy.

Good sales copy isn't about being deceptive or exaggerating the truth. It's about making sure that the visitor understands every detail and benefit about the product so they can say to themselves "This is a great product and well worth that price. I'm going to buy it".

[toon-andy]

Good debate, but I suppose it all depends on the product being sold - if it is the same fixed product - i.e. make and model, then sales are obviously more dependent on price. As we are all aware, accountants offer a variable service - some are better than others, busier than others, and more expensive than others.

[awebapart.com]

Heres the paradox:

1.To have a functioning website you need a webdesigner.

2. To generate traffic you need SEO.

3. To sell stuff once people get there you need good copy.

Whilst I can see people saying they combine the roles of web design SEO, are there many who also write great copy?
Let's break that list down a little further:

1. To have a functioning website you might need:

1.1 A graphic designer (logos, illustrations, etc)
1.2 A web designer (layout)
1.3 A web developer (functionality)
(for web development do you then get a server-side coding specialist, a browser-side coding specialist, a database specialist, an ecommerce gateway specialist, a security specialist, a testing specialist etc)
1.4 Somebody who can write good English content
etc

2. To generate traffic you might need:

2.1 Marketing (not just internet marketing but other non-internet marketing too)
2.2 Onsite SEO
2.3 Offsite SEO (e.g. link building)
2.4 PPC (Pay per click advertising, e.g. adwords specialist)
etc

3. To sell stuff once people get there you might need:

3.1 Sales skills
3.2 Good English wording
3.3 Copywriter
(but most of tasks 3.1-3.3 may affect your 2.2 onsite SEO too)
3.4 A buyer to source your products cheaper so you can make your prices more attractive
3.5 A business guru to make your company more efficient, so you can make your prices more attractive
3.6 A business guru or product guru to improve your products or services to make them more attractive
etc

Now if you assign different specialists to some or most of those roles you're talking about at least several different specialists! Do you really want several different companies supplying your web presence?

The threads on this forum are a great example of how people disagree about things, even specialists in the same field, but more so specialists in different areas thinking their area is the most important.

If you as a business owner take on different specialists, then you are the overall solution provider, and you take responsibility for the risks involved in trying to get the right balance of priorities for the different tasks, and trying to get different people working together. Not every team of people will gel together. In some ways specialists are less likely to gel in teams, because the more specialised you become the less you understand about the roles and needs of other people in the team, especially when your work impacts the work of others in the team.

If you as the business owner go to a web solution provider, then hopefully it is the solution provider who takes on the responsibility for providing the overall solution, using specialists where necessary, or using people with a larger skills matrix, or using an existing team of specialists (who work together well) to do this.

The other main point I'll pick up on is English skills. Not advanced copywriting skills but simple English communication skills. If you go for a web solution provider from another country (e.g. India, Eastern Europe) you might well need to provide either your own English copy, or get someone in to provide that if you cannot do it yourself.

But even with a UK-based web solution provider, the business client usually provides their own copy anyway, in one starting format or another, since they know their business better than their web solution provider.

Also, surely most business owners have some marketing and sales skills for tasks 2 and 3? As well as at least basic written English skills for task 1 and some of task 3? (MS Word's grammar checker and spell checker can help with this)

Most of the business people on this forum seem to communicate pretty well. I wouldn't expect most of the business people on this forum to code up an advanced website, nor get their site to the top of google, but I would expect most of the business people on this forum to string a few sentences together explaining what is good about their company, services and products.

[sirearl]

Interesting... you seem to have changed half of your "product and price" model.

Now it's "demand for the product", not the product itself.

Here's a question: there are two accountants, AccountantA and AccountantB. AccountantB charges 20% more than AccountantA.

Whose services are more in demand?

And why?

Steve



In this area like brain surgeons cheap is not always best.:)

But for known products cheapest wins most times.


Earl

[directmarketingadvice]

In this area like brain surgeons cheap is not always best.:)

Or in any other market.

Almost no-one buys the cheapest item.

Steve

[sirearl]

Or in any other market.

Almost no-one buys the cheapest item.

Steve

And no one drives miles to Asda because they are cheaper than Sainsbury.?

for a given product the lowest price nearly always wins.

Hence the proliferation of price compare sites.

Earl

[directmarketingadvice]

for a given product the lowest price nearly always wins.

You mean an identical product?

Nah, you're wrong.

Steve

[sirearl]

You mean an identical product?

Nah, you're wrong.

Steve

well Steve you would have to produce some proof for that scientific statement to be true across a broad range of mainstream products.?

Earl

[JamieM]

well Steve you would have to produce some proof for that scientific statement to be true across a broad range of mainstream products.?

Earl

One of our products sells regularly for £26.99 plus £2.95 delivery.

It's £16.99 delivered on Amazon at the moment.

[directmarketingadvice]

well Steve you would have to produce some proof for that scientific statement to be true across a broad range of mainstream products.?

OK. That's easy enough.

Let's pick, for sake of argument, a Nintendo Wii Sport.

That's a brand item. It's the same no matter where you get it from.

If you were buying one, I presume you'd buy it wherever it was cheapest?

(And, just to prove there are no tricks to the point I'm going to make, let's assume you can only buy it from a UK website - none of this, "with the exchange rate, it's cheaper to buy it from Amazon.de" stuff.)

Steve

[iKreativ]

A good web designer / developer can also be good at SEO, but copywriting should be left to the pro's, writing good, engaging copy is harder than people think.

[sirearl]

OK. That's easy enough.

Let's pick, for sake of argument, a Nintendo Wii Sport.

That's a brand item. It's the same no matter where you get it from.

If you were buying one, I presume you'd buy it wherever it was cheapest?

(And, just to prove there are no tricks to the point I'm going to make, let's assume you can only buy it from a UK website - none of this, "with the exchange rate, it's cheaper to buy it from Amazon.de" stuff.)

Steve

No good picking on specifics one has to address the publics buying habits.

Something I have vast experience of.:D

Earl

[directmarketingadvice]

No good picking on specifics

Yes, no point in looking at reality... better to talk in nonsense generalities...

Steve

[sirearl]

Yes, no point in looking at reality... better to talk in nonsense generalities...

Steve

We will just have to agree to disagree Steve.

Earl

[directmarketingadvice]

We will just have to agree to disagree Steve.

Earl

I don't get you, Earl. You asked for proof and, the moment I said I could provide some, you turned tail and ran away.

What's that about?

It's not the first time you've done this, but I've never been able to figure it out.

It can't be because you believe you're right. Otherwise, you'd listen to my point and then explain why I'm wrong. So I reckon it's one of the following:

(1) You know that you're wrong.

or

(2) Youu actually believe what you're saying, but you're terrified of finding out it's wrong.

It's all very strange.

Steve

[awebapart.com]

Steve and Earl, I think you are both right!

I know some people who just go for the cheapest price, and I know other people who want to pay extra and try to avoid the very cheapest prices.

Just take the price of a pint in different local pubs as one of many examples.

It depends on the person and the product.

[sirearl]

Steve and Earl, I think you are both right!

I know some people who just go for the cheapest price, and I know other people who want to pay extra and try to avoid the very cheapest prices.

Just take the price of a pint in different local pubs as one of many examples.

It depends on the person and the product.

Not the best example Paul as people will go to the pub they prefer e.t.c.

But I stand by my statement that for a given product people in the main will buy that product at the cheapest price available.

Again any variation in people would I suspect depend very much on an individuals wealth.

Earl

[awebapart.com]

Not the best example Paul as people will go to the pub they prefer e.t.c.
You haven't seen our local Wetherspoons pub! A lot of the people don't go there because they prefer it, they go there for the prices. Whilst at the same time, a lot of other people who might prefer this pub, avoid it because of this too.

[directmarketingadvice]

I know some people who just go for the cheapest price

I don't believe that's ever the case. And, if I'm wrong, it's only a tiny percentage of people who have no money. (i.e. not the sort of people you'd want to be selling to, anyway)

My Wii Sports example is simple...

Go to Google and type "Buy Wii Sports UK" (without the quotes).

There are 31,500,000 results.

If Earl's right - and people buy a product where it's sold the cheapest - that's a lot of sites to work your way through.

Interestingly, Earl is always going on about how the first listing in the SERPS gets so many more clicks than the second, which gets so many more clicks than the 5th... and, basically, no-one looks at page 2.

Which is a 100% contradiction of his claim that people shop around until they find the best price.

As Einstein used to say, "Q.E.D, mother****ers".

Steve

[awebapart.com]

I know some people who just go for the cheapest price...
I don't believe that's ever the case. And, if I'm wrong, it's only a tiny percentage of people who have no money. (i.e. not the sort of people you'd want to be selling to, anyway)
Some of the people I know go for the best price with some products because they don't want to be made a fool of by paying more than necessary, it is not because they have no money, far from it, they want a bargain and to be seen as a savvy buyer.

It looks like my attempt to stop 2 people arguing by trying to find common ground has failed miserably, with both of them now arguing with me and my common ground!

That's the last time I put my Kofi Annan hat on! :)

[FLAUK]

I don't believe that's ever the case. And, if I'm wrong, it's only a tiny percentage of people who have no money. (i.e. not the sort of people you'd want to be selling to, anyway)

My Wii Sports example is simple...

Go to Google and type "Buy Wii Sports UK" (without the quotes).

There are 31,500,000 results.

If Earl's right - and people buy a product where it's sold the cheapest - that's a lot of sites to work your way through.

Interestingly, Earl is always going on about how the first listing in the SERPS gets so many more clicks than the second, which gets so many more clicks than the 5th... and, basically, no-one looks at page 2.

Which is a 100% contradiction of his claim that people shop around until they find the best price.

As Einstein used to say, "Q.E.D, mother****ers".

Steve

Also trust is a major factor.

I get emails most days from sites selling consumer electronics at knock down prices. While they may be the cheapest I wouldn't trust them with my card details.

[sirearl]

Interestingly, Earl is always going on about how the first listing in the SERPS gets so many more clicks than the second, which gets so many more clicks than the 5th... and, basically, no-one looks at page 2.

Which is a 100% contradiction of his claim that people shop around until they find the best price.

As Einstein used to say, "Q.E.D, mother****ers".

Steve

I was just quoting googles figures who may or may not know much about search engine traffic.

and yes people in general search the first page for the best price, but no doubt some may stray onto page 2 but not often.

Earl

[directmarketingadvice]

Also trust is a major factor.

I agree. I think it's the #1 factor.

Steve

[directmarketingadvice]

and yes people in general search the first page for the best price, but no doubt some may stray onto page 2 but not often.

Therefore the idea that people buy from the site that's cheapest has to be nonsense. Evidence from clickrates proves they can't be bothered clicking on more than a few sites (not even all the sites on page 1).

Steve

[sirearl]

Therefore the idea that people buy from the site that's cheapest has to be nonsense. Evidence from clickrates proves they can't be bothered clicking on more than a few sites (not even all the sites on page 1).

Steve

Your probably right that people do not buy from sites they do not visit,but they do buy from the cheapest site they do visit for the same reason most of us buy fuel from the supermarkets sites.:):p

bit more on page 1 traffic. http://www.justsearching.co.uk/JustBlog/how-much-traffic-will-i-get-if-i-rank-1-in-google.html

Earl

[Newky]

This may not help much, but when I purchase something, I tend to do so from the cheapest reputable seller I can find in a given time period. I can be pretty lazy and don't search for too long, and I don't trust sellers online that I do not know (or that aren't reviewed).

If I were to buy Wii Sports for example, I wouldn't buy it 'Used' on Amazon, but I would buy it from a lower cost, well-reviewed seller.

Convenience comes into it as well. I wouldn't walked an extra mile to get less than a certain percentage off.

As I said, I'm not a bargain hunter and I'll pay more for good service. My soon-to-be-wife on the other hand is super tight (when it comes to money) :D