Idea for a business tax strike [Archive]

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KM-Tiger

21st January 2006, 20:35

Someone who posts here has "I pay too much tax" as their signature and I must say I agree.

I've thought of a way in which businesses could draw the attention of our current excuse for a Government to the fact that we are all paying too much tax.

Anyone here who has employees knows that they must send their pound of flesh to the IR by the 19th of each month (or 22nd ish if they pay by BACS), but anyone who has ever been late also knows that not a lot happens. I think I am right in saying that current rules are you can be late twice in one year without penalty.

So my idea is this. If enough businesses got together - it would need to spread well outside this forum - we could choose a month, say April, and delay our payments by 7 days. We would be doing nothing illegal, as the payment would actually be made, but the resulting blip in govt cashflow would surely be noticed?

Steve Roberts

21st January 2006, 21:03

I assume it's me you refer to. Though your idea is good, the problem is that whichever individuals / companies championed such a crusade would be well and truly in the sights of the Revenue. You could be certain of a "random" IR audit in the near future.

On the same subject, here's a letter I wrote to my MP and the PM a while ago:

Dear Sir,

If this country was a company, with Tony Blair the MD, the receivers would have been called long ago, and the Directors would be banned from future Directorships.

Tax in this country is ludicrous. Politicians often quote the comparatively low rate of income tax in relation to other countries. They've missed the plot entirely - the overall tax liability for UK citizens is obscenely high. Allow me to demonstrate my story:

I leave school and get a job - my income is taxed, plus I pay NI.

I buy a house and I have to pay stamp duty on said house.

I also have to pay local taxes (rates) because I now own a house.

I buy a car so that I can drive from my house to my job and I pay Road Tax.

I fill the car up with petrol so that the engine can rotate, and I have to pay exorbitant tax on the fuel.

I manage to save some money because I'm heeding the Government's advice about preparing for the future - I'm taxed on that.

Now my car is an essential tool for my job so you would think it's tax deductible - guess again. It's a company car so I have another 'special' tax on that.

During my life I need to buy stuff in order to live - I pay 17.5% VAT on that.

I set up a company, because the Government is encouraging entrepreneurs - this means employing people. I pay employers NI on everything my staff earn, plus they pay tax and NI as well.

Eventually the company makes a profit, so I'm now lumbered with Corp Tax.

In exchange for my staff performing well and making a profit, I offer them a 'thank you' by giving a few perks (karting, meals, west end shows) - they're taxed on that.

Eventually, I sell my company in order to retire. I pay CGT on that.

The stress of all this eventually gives me a heart attack and I die. However, having heeded the Government's advice about saving for my retirement I have a reasonable estate which my kids can inherit. But, oh dear, the have to pay IHT on my demise.

Now, I wouldn't object to the above if public services reflected my contribution. But, I have to pay for my family to have private health care - because the hospitals are overstretched. I have to send my kids to private schools because the quality of education is appalling. Well, at least I'll have a decent pension after all of my outgoings - but, guess again I've had to take out a private pension scheme because the Government's squandered all my money (no better than Maxwell!)

If I ran my company the way the Government runs the country I'd be (rightly) sued by my staff, clients and suppliers and I'd be banned from being a Director. It's my view that politicians should be called to task to the same degree that Directors are. The first responsibility of Directors is to their shareholders and if they fail in this duty they are called to task. Equally, politicians first responsibility is to the shareholders of UK Plc (ie, the electorate).

I look forward to hear from you shortly,

Kind regards

Steve Roberts

easyasit

21st January 2006, 21:09

The tax system is not fair ur right.

Still pay for TV license, oh but i use Sky, thats £45 a month now for the tele
Paying NI, PAYE
VAT
Council Tax
etc and all the above,

So why if some 60 million ppl are all paying this are we in debt?
Why do we never have any money?

Al

easyasit

21st January 2006, 21:15

ps, reading the above in greater detail u are so right.
Third of ones wages are lost per month to the tax man. That is what is directly taken.
Not forgetting the Council Tax (really paying for ur bins to be emptied)

Fancy a pack of fags? Most of the price is taken by the govt as well
Fancy a beer? Thr same

Who was it who called this country, "Rip off Britain"

you are so, so right

Yet we still have ill equipped soldiers on our army
Stil need more hospitals
Still need more schools

So what is going on, where is OUR money going?

not to mention the overall pittence we get n our state pension. I mean hoe the hell is someone supposed to live on £75 a week?
Take out a private pension, well its got to be a high risk stakeholder hasn;t it, costing some £200 per month!!!

Never mind all the imigrants coming here, i am off like a dirty shirt wen i retire i think.

Al

KM-Tiger

21st January 2006, 21:16

You could be certain of a "random" IR audit in the near future.
Steve,

It was indeed you I was thinking of, and thank you for sharing that wonderful letter!

Touch wood, I've never had an IR audit, but from what I've heard I don't want to invite one.

I suppose I was trying to think of something that would be as effective as the Poll Tax riots, but without actually having a riot.

Jayne

21st January 2006, 21:19

Steve that was an excellent piece of writing and all too true :D

Jayne

Cornish Steve

21st January 2006, 21:32

Less than one hundred years ago, a big majority of people paid no income tax. Once the government started to tax people, there was no going back. They regard it as their money whereas, really, it's our money.

Some people in the US are proposing what they call the fair tax system. They'd abolish all income tax, abolish all corporate taxes, abolish the IRS (equivalent to the IR), and charge a 25% sales tax on all items. The administrative savings would be immense, and those savings would end up in people's pockets. Do you think this would work in the UK?

KM-Tiger

21st January 2006, 21:33

And this (http://www.adamsmith.org/cissues/industry-and-employment/costingjobs.htm) is where a lot of it is going.

I particularly like:-

"Five-A-Day Co-ordinators' became 'Three-A-Day Co-ordinators' and took a 40% pay cut!"

Jayne

21st January 2006, 21:38

Can we strike about business rates too, you pay loads and you don't even get a free bin :evil:

Jayne :D

KM-Tiger

21st January 2006, 21:44

.............. you pay loads and you don't even get a free bin :evil:
And worse than that, the new Hazardous Waste Regulations require businesses to dispose of even simple things like fluoresecent tubes and batteries through Hazardous Waste channels. Despite the Business Rates we pay Local Authorities offer no facilities for this to small businesses.

I will admit that I cheat and take things like this in my private car to the local tip.

Jayne

21st January 2006, 21:47

Our local tip, checks what you throw in and if they think it's from a shop, they will not let you tip it. I take mine home and put it my household bin, stuff them :lol:

Jayne

Steve Roberts

21st January 2006, 22:10

Touch wood, I've never had an IR audit, but from what I've heard I don't want to invite one.

I had one a few years ago. A lady from the IR turned up, as agreed, but I asked for proof of her ID before I give her accounts! She said, visibly irritated, "no one's asked for that before!" To which I replied, "guess what, I've never asked for it before!" From that moment, she was after something. Well she didn't find diddly-squat! I said "you must be pleased that we're clean as a whistle?" but she replied "every company has some under-payment". To which I said "well you've obviously not done your job properly then!" It's moments like that which make it all worthwhile!!

Jayne

21st January 2006, 22:13

You must of really enjoyed that Steve, definitely a Kodak moment :D

Jayne

Cornish Steve

21st January 2006, 22:26

she replied "every company has some under-payment"
This is outrageous. Her attitude is that you're guilty and, with luck, she'll prove it. Abolish the IR!

Steve Roberts

21st January 2006, 22:33

she replied "every company has some under-payment"
This is outrageous. Her attitude is that you're guilty and, with luck, she'll prove it. Abolish the IR!
Aye - I used to say that with the IR "you're guilty until proven inncoent". However, I now say "you're guilty even if your proven innocent!"

My attitude is - let the Tax inspectors carry on with their work. In the meantime I plan to earn ten times what they earn. That way, I have the last laugh and it protects my sanity!

Jayne

21st January 2006, 22:33

Totally agree Steve, get rid of all the Tax, VAT, NI etc and we get to keep everything we earn...Wouldn't that be lovely :lol:

We can but dream.

Jayne :D

Cornish Steve

22nd January 2006, 00:10

Totally agree Steve, get rid of all the Tax, VAT, NI etc and we get to keep everything we earn...Wouldn't that be lovely :lol:

We can but dream.

Jayne :D
It's a serious proposal in the US. Remember, though, that there is no federal sales tax (or VAT). The proposal is to scrap all the complicated rules associated with income and business taxes and replace them with a federal sales tax (25%). The net income to the government is the same - but without the horrendous overhead and reputation of the IRS (or IR).

The problem in the UK is that we pay so many taxes already that it's probably not practical to recover all the revenue in the form of a national sales tax. It would be more like 100% than 25%. We'd have to cut existing taxes dramatically, which means cutting government programs. It's not easy to wean everyone from them after all these years.

10 Yetis

22nd January 2006, 06:41

Steve,

What was the response you got from your letter?

MinuWeb

22nd January 2006, 06:56

I like the idea proposed in the US, it would make sense to have a variable rate that was product dependant though. For example, buy a new TV (luxury) and pay 40% sales tax or VAT, buy food (essential) and pay only 5%

This gives people the choice, if they want expensive luxury goods they pay more tax, if they don't want to pay alot of tax don't spend anything. This system would also eliminate people that don't pay tax on there earnings as all tax would be collected when it was spent, making a much fairer system for all.

Rob Holmes

22nd January 2006, 07:54

I have a friend who is one of the top EU and government financial advisors - Steve and Tony - I'll ask him if it's feasible :)

Rob

Rob Holmes

22nd January 2006, 07:59

Also - these forum isn't a place to plot political uprisings or non-payment / withholding of taxes.

There ARE forums to do this but I've had a search and can't find them <frown>

They've been mentioned before - it's something like the Institute of Small Businesses or something like that - when I get a chance I'll have a look. But they are very politically focussed and compaign direct to the government on small business issues.

Rob

Jayne

22nd January 2006, 11:22

Oh I thought they were joking about the strike :lol:

Just having a good moan about stuff, makes you feel better!

Jayne

Rob Holmes

22nd January 2006, 19:12

KM-Tiger

22nd January 2006, 19:43

Mortime Business Software

22nd January 2006, 20:15

Oh I thought they were joking about the strike
No, it was a serious suggestion as a possible way of protesting. If business owners don't protest, who will.

Since out current govt came to power the tax take has risen from 37% to 42.5% of GDP (source Sunday Times today), mostly by stealth, and with virtually nothing to show for it.

What shocks me is that is has taken so long for anyone to realise.

One of the problems seems to be that, in general, people are now living longer.

In a different thread we calculated that about half the population of the UK was working to keep both itself and the other half who are not working. Taxes need to be high at the moment to maintain the welfare of society.

We also seem to be making large investments in other countries (foriegn aid and wars for example). This needs to be paid for by the current workforce for future generations.

The government is doing its best to remedy the situation by, for example, grabbing its slice of the new slave market. Do you really believe that the government allows so many immigrants to enter the country out of the goodness of their hearts? I don't. We need these slaves to do the jobs which nobody in Britain wants to do any more, and also to address the imbalance between the tax-paying workforce and the rest.

Dave

Jayne

22nd January 2006, 20:26

Wouldn't it be much easier if the government just cut back on spending and stop giving out so many hand outs.

Jayne

KM-Tiger

22nd January 2006, 20:33

We need these slaves to do the jobs which nobody in Britain wants to do any more, and also to address the imbalance between the tax-paying workforce and the rest.
But that's nothing new.

It used to be the Irish in the construction industry, for instance, but now it's East Europeans.

It's a funny thought, but in 20 years time all those lorries that now have names like "Kirkpatrick" and "Kilkenny" will be sporting names ending in "owski" or "ova".

Rob Holmes

23rd January 2006, 12:14

<< Moved to accounts and finance >>

Cornish Steve

25th January 2006, 00:38

What about personal allowances?

Business expenses?

How do you see them fitting in with the flat rate?
This page has several links that explain the details:

http://www.fairtaxvolunteer.org/smart/faq.html

fastfences

25th January 2006, 01:07

There ARE forums to do this but I've had a search and can't find them

They've been mentioned before - it's something like the Institute of Small Businesses or something like that
Rob

Hi all, Probably the Federation of Small Business (FSB)

www.fsb.org.uk
Cheers, Nigel

Rob Holmes

25th January 2006, 05:38

Hi all, Probably the Federation of Small Business (FSB)

www.fsb.org.uk
Cheers, Nigel

Thanks Nigel - yes thats who I was thinking of.

Rob