Web Site Design

[magic-merl]

Here is my profile (at least from a business perspective) Many years ago when the internet was young I used to run a small company building PC's (this was when a 200Mhz processor was state of the art. As a side line I used to develop web sites for small local business'. That is where my web site development experience begins and ends.

Now - my wife and I have just set up a company trading on the internet (web site in my signature) and now this site has taken the best part of 6 months to develop although I will be maintaining the site I am looking to develop my web experience further.

So - the question I would like to ask is - based on my work at Koochi Koo. What, as a small business or new startup, would you want to pay for small sites OR large sites requiring many months of development and what is it you are looking for - Flash, HTML etc.

The reason I ask is because I am going to delve (yet again) into Web Site design with the small business in mind and would appreciate your thought.

****[Ammendment.]****

I thought I should add that from the visual point of view I have designed the site from the ground up.

Thank you

[Coding Monkey]

I think that's such a broad and basic question that many people won't even know the answer to. Of course small and start-up companies will pay for a wesbite, but they'll have an idea of what they want, not what's involved in achieving it.

[MinuWeb]

it is a bit like asking what you would pay for a car.

It all depends on requirements, the desired end result and most importantly budget.

[Rob Holmes]

Hi Ian,

Yes of course people will pay - the question is can you deliver - and what?

I suggest taking a look at some local sites and seeing if you think you could do better or at least the same standard.

Maybe chat to friends and family with sites, find out how much they paid and the standard etc.

Also I suggest finding yourself a niche. Be the web design company for <insert niche>

'Web Designers' good and bad are two a penny nowadays so you'd better get a clear idea of what you can offer thats either better than the rest or more customer specific than the rest.

I host for thousands of businesses - when I'm chatting to some of my customers I often ask them how much their site cost etc etc - I am constantly amazed at the deals some people get on their websites - If you just go in under the general 'web design' heading you're competing with people very very tallented that can work for too little money. They are usually not around long but thats another story. Thats why I say find a niche so...

What did you do in between the pc building company and setting up this website? If it's an industry you understand and speak the 'lingo' maybe you could create websites specifically for that industry?

Hope this helps a bit,

Rob

[kartel]

yes I agree, as i have found yes I can make website's but cannot deliver to a standard what people want or request. that is why I do not offer it as a service. Even though I would love to do it for a living. truth is stay well within your Limit's do not say that yes I will do it when you know deep down you cannot. It makes you look stupid and is unprofessional. I am not saying you cannot do it but just know what you can offer and what you cannot. then put a price on what you can

[Coding Monkey]

truth is stay well within your Limit's do not say that yes I will do it when you know deep down you cannot. It makes you look stupid and is unprofessional. I am not saying you cannot do it but just know what you can offer and what you cannot. then put a price on what you can

Very good advice. I turned down a £30k Flash project because I knew we couldn't deliver the result as well as we should be able to.

[lowcostinks]

i am the same i get asked to do alot of web sites but cus i only know bits and bobs its hard to sort out.

saying that the people who want these sites would rather pay me £500 for a web site than pay someone 2k and get the perfect web site.

[magic-merl]

Not really the feedback I am looking for.......however - I am talking about small business looking for a web presence. Someone to guide them through the process in both consulant & developer role. We are not talking megabucks here, as you have probably guessed., we are talking simple promotional, marketable web based activities which will show that a company is professional and capable.

Thanks for your advice.

[JustOneUK]

hi Magic-Merl

Your website shows "error on page" on IE6.

[Rob Holmes]

Not really the feedback I am looking for.......however - I am talking about small business looking for a web presence. Someone to guide them through the process in both consulant & developer role. We are not talking megabucks here, as you have probably guessed., we are talking simple promotional, marketable web based activities which will show that a company is professional and capable.

Hi magicmerl,

Ok heres your question for people again..

So - the question I would like to ask is - based on my work at Koochi Koo. What, as a small business or new startup, would you want to pay for small sites OR large sites requiring many months of development and what is it you are looking for - Flash, HTML etc.

I'm afraid my answer is I wouldn't pay for this level of website. I can't see any flash on there so can't comment on this.

Heres a question back - what would you charge if you did the koochicoo site for someone else?

My guess is it is 2 days work if the client supplied all the photos and descriptions?

But there are some key 'business losing' characteristics to the site that would mean that most money spend on a design like this is wasted.

Please take this in the spirit of help that I mean it - I don't mean to be unkind or offensive - just objective.

As a side issue... Over time in the forums we have been able to provide positive suggestions that have really helped small businesses improve their online sales by looking at where their site could be strengthened and I think your site would benefit from this. Also by doing this it may help your thoughts on future websites you put together :)

Rob

[Coding Monkey]

Not really the feedback I am looking for.......however - I am talking about small business looking for a web presence. Someone to guide them through the process in both consulant & developer role. We are not talking megabucks here, as you have probably guessed., we are talking simple promotional, marketable web based activities which will show that a company is professional and capable.

Thanks for your advice.

Yet all my clients are small businesses. And we show a highly professional image that has made them a lot of money in return. I don't get that professional impression from your site, and wouldn't put you in the same sector of web design as ourselves. You might find start-up companies are more interested who, as you say, have low budgets as you aren't talking "mega bucks" but I wouldn't say that from your own website it would show them as professional and capable. There is far more than goes into building websites than using a program to do it for you, and the design side is something a program cannot do well for you.

[kevbcharlton]

I have to agree with MacMyDay.

The design element of your website doesn't scream "I can make your business look professional". There are a lot of web designers out there at the moment ,and to be succesful you need to be visually creative and comfortable with web standards.

However, there are also a lot of bad web design companies out there making money. So if you are up for a challenge try and make a go of it.

In terms of pricing, because it is so competitive at the moment, a basic 5 page site can be done for around £500. I know a lot of people in this industry and that seems fairly standard for a small web design firm to quote.

[Coding Monkey]

In terms of pricing, because it is so competitive at the moment, a basic 5 page site can be done for around £500. I know a lot of people in this industry and that seems fairly standard for a small web design firm to quote.

Hmm, every time someone signs a contract, I find out what the competition were quoting, and I've never seen a price less than double that for a simple website design.

[kevbcharlton]

Most web design firms will probably charge a lot more than £500, but due to the fact that more and more people are going freelance, and therefore have less overheads, then you are always going to get people charging less.

Also, if you are using css layouts you are dramtically cutting down development time yourself, and can therefore afford to charge less.

I think it may also depend on the industries you are targetting. A small firm may not be able to afford an expensive site, so there will always be people charging less to target those companies.

Just based on my experience.

[Coding Monkey]

But because you have the skills to use CSS doesn't mean you should charge less. It's like saying cos I use Apache/PHP/MySQL to create dynamic websites, instead of individual static pages, I should charge less. My skills save myself time, the clients time, and offer a better solution.

Tip of the day: target the industries with money ;)

[kevbcharlton]

For this guy to make any money doing this he's going to have to charge less, because his skills aren't up to scratch compared to most within the industry.

If he goes into a pitch for a big companies website charging say 2 grand, they are not gonna take him up on it.

That's why I suggested targetting smaller firms, for a lower price, because I believe that's the only way he could make money from it.

A small website is hardly time consuming if you know what you are doing, so £500 for a few days work aint that bad!

When his skills develop he can start charging more...

Regarding CSS, some people need to charge less to get the jobs in. If they can reduce the amount of development time they spend on sites they can afford to do this, and therefore may be able to get lots more work!

[Coding Monkey]

I wasn't disagreeing on those points, as I entirely agree. I wouldn't personally hire him for £500 to do any web design work, but that's a matter of preference. I was disagreeing on charging less because it takes less time, when it takes less time because you're more qualified.

[Mortime Business Software]

But because you have the skills to use CSS doesn't mean you should charge less. It's like saying cos I use Apache/PHP/MySQL to create dynamic websites, instead of individual static pages, I should charge less. My skills save myself time, the clients time, and offer a better solution.

Tip of the day: target the industries with money ;)

That's not how it works I'm afraid Tom. Being able to get the job done in less time than your competitors is used as a competitive edge by most businesses.

For example, when I started my signs biz I used the most basic tools. I had no computer and had to hand paint all the lettering and graphics.

After a few months I bought a computer and a plotter which could cut the lettering and graphics from sticky-back plastic. With this equipment I could do the jobs in a fraction of the time. A job which formerly took me three days would now only take a few hours.

At first I was charging nearly as much as I did on the tools, but it didn't last long because my competitors also computerised their production, and that particular competitive edge was gone.

This principle is exactly the same in *any* business.

Dave

[kevbcharlton]

What people charge is up to them really, if they need work, they will need to charge less to stand more chance of getting paid jobs. Using CSS means you can do your job quicker and can therefore afford to do that. It gives you more options.

If you can afford to hold out for the better paid jobs then that's fair play. But it all depends on how much you need the work.

[Coding Monkey]

With all respect Dave, I do work in the industry and do charge for website designs, that clients pay far more than £500 on AND do make a living from it. We do the job in less time than most of the competitors, yet because of the skills we have, we're able to charge more. Are you saying, with your belief in the system of qualifications, that when you're a qualified programmer you should charge LESS than someone who isn't because it doesn't take you as long to do the work?

I pay my lawyer £195 + VAT an hour. Because of his knowledge and experience, his salary will increase each year, but because someone can do it in the same time, with less knowledge, with less experience, with lower qualifications, I should say to him 'I'm gonna go elsewhere, thanks'?

Are you saying the kid down the road should be paid the same as us, or we should lower our prices based on nothing put creating a time frame, regardless of resources, that we should all work toward?

Should computer companies charge less because it takes less time to develop, or pharmaceutical companies charge less, as they actually spend more on marketing than research and development? Would it be fair if Ives came up with the iPod design in 5 minutes to charge the price, or would you prefer to know it took 9 months?

It is *not* the same in any industry. Universal standards very rarely exist.



That's not how it works I'm afraid Tom. Being able to get the job done in less time than your competitors is used as a competitive edge by most businesses.

For example, when I started my signs biz I used the most basic tools. I had no computer and had to hand paint all the lettering and graphics.

After a few months I bought a computer and a plotter which could cut the lettering and graphics from sticky-back plastic. With this equipment I could do the jobs in a fraction of the time. A job which formerly took me three days would now only take a few hours.

At first I was charging nearly as much as I did on the tools, but it didn't last long because my competitors also computerised their production, and that particular competitive edge was gone.

This principle is exactly the same in *any* business.

Dave

[Admiral Collections]

Hi Dave


This wouldn't work for me either. That's like saying if my client gets paid within 2 days of instructing me then I should reduce my rate because obviously it took me less man hours etc than a disputed debt. It doesn't work like that, I take 50% in those instances :lol:


NIc :wink:

[kevbcharlton]

hold yer horses people.

I dont think Dave's saying people SHOULD lower prices, just that they can if they need to at a particular time. If they need more work coming through the door and competition is fierce then they stand more chance getting it if they quote less. Simple as. Doesn't mean you need to.

If your work is good then you stand a good chance of winning pitches anyway. If it's not, like in this guys case, then you need to have low prices.

[Mortime Business Software]

Thank you Kevin. That's exactly what I mean.

Are you saying, with your belief in the system of qualifications, that when you're a qualified programmer you should charge LESS than someone who isn't because it doesn't take you as long to do the work?

No Tom, that's not what I said. What I was trying to say is that if you have a competetive edge such as CSS, then you would probably be better off charging less than you would with a more time consuming technique, whilst getting the job done faster. This will bring in more work and earn you more money overall. This principle is the same for any business in *perfect* competition. (I should have specified 'perfect' before).

This is one of the basic laws of micro-economics - lower prices means more customers. It certainly worked for me.

I pay my lawyer £195 + VAT an hour. Because of his knowledge and experience, his salary will increase each year, but because someone can do it in the same time, with less knowledge, with less experience, with lower qualifications, I should say to him 'I'm gonna go elsewhere, thanks'?

I can't remember saying anything like this either! But since you bring it up, if the less qualified lawyer can do just as good a job for a lower price, then I would definitely use him/her. Of course this depends on the kind of job you need doing. I've paid top whack for lawyers, accountants, financial advisors, real estate agents, etc., and I've been done a few times.

I've also used services by people who are charge low prices in order to enter the market, and I've found most of them genuine and professional. The most expensive is not always the best. (No implication towards yourself intended).

Dave

[magic-merl]

@kevbcharlton

Thanks for your input.

You are right in saying that I am not aiming at high end markets or sites that require many thousands of pounds to develop. Initially I am probably not talking £250+ but we all need to start somewhere. As it happens I believe that the customer is paramount in all design aspects and so nothing gets published unless they are happy with the end result.

Koochi Koo is my first site [and largest] for many many years and I am not saying it is perfect. However - the response generally received from "Joe Public" is far less qualified from the professionals yet vastly more positive - so any criticism by the professional is taken onboard yet I do understand that the professional will also look at technical aspects of the site and frown.

The site does not officially launch until Mid February so I will use the information provided here wisely. I don't think I could have gained anywhere near the amount of site analysis on any other forum as I have here.

Many Thanks.


We all live and die by the sword yet I know my limitations - as I would also know where and when I would need help - whether visually or technically.

[Coding Monkey]

No Tom, that's not what I said. What I was trying to say is that if you have a competetive edge such as CSS, then you would probably be better off charging less than you would with a more time consuming technique, whilst getting the job done faster. This will bring in more work and earn you more money overall. This principle is the same for any business in *perfect* competition. (I should have specified 'perfect' before).

This is one of the basic laws of micro-economics - lower prices means more customers. It certainly worked for me.


I still don't agree. By knowing the technology, you're more experienced and more capable of charging a better price for your expertise. You get it done faster because you're better!

Who will I pay a higher wage? Someone who knows Photoshop, or someone who knows MS Paint? Now, the Photoshop user will cost more, and will take less time to produce a better quality service, so as they've paid the money to buy Photoshop, learn it, get experience in it, produce a portfolio, they should now charge me less? If it takes less time, and you charge less because of the time it's taken you to learn this new skill, how does that make more money? I really don't see your point, Dave, and you objectify so much to state that it's the same for every sector, that I strongly disagree.

Yes, you *can* charge less, but what does that say about your service if the longer you go, the less you decide to charge?

These simple laws don't mean higher profits, though.

[Mortime Business Software]

These simple laws don't mean higher profits, though.

If Mr.Photoshop estimates 5 hours to do a job, and charges $20 per hour for his services, he will quote $100. Mr.Paint estimates 10 hours to do the job and also charges $20 per hour, so he quotes $200. Who do you think is more likely to get the job? I know this is very simplistic, but the idea works.

If Mr.Photoshop charges $40 per hour and quotes $200, then he is decreasing his chances of scoring the job.

Of course this not a good example because the customer will probably realise the vast difference between the two tools. But I think this illustrates clearly that Mr.Photoshop can virtually ensure he gets the job if he charges a lower price than $200.

I used a few different ways to increase my competetive edge over my competition. Private premises, bulk buying of stock, the latest/greatest technology I could afford, etc. Virtually all of these were used to lower my prices below those that my competitors were quoting. I got just about every job I quoted for, and some of my competitors were really pissed off about it. Some of them used to tell my customers that my work would be sub-standard, but in fact it was at least as good as the best.

How do you make more money out of this approach? Employ more people! ;)

Dave

[seabro]

I don't do website because I tell myself I can't. I simply don't have thr artistic flair. I can do the backend but thats no good without a front end.

In the past I have gone through various stages of I do, I don't, I do, I don't.

Currently I don't. However, I did this one in under two hours. All I got from the customer was the text. I would have been happy with £100 for it but I did it for nothing one evening.

http://www.austremovals.co.uk

same goes for http://83.217.169.55/rnl/ which I said I would do for £30 a page and have been waiting for the text for ages.. Took about 3 hours start to finish. (Although it's not finished).

The thing is, if you say you can build a house and you can't, your in trouble. But websites don't fall down. Anyone can have a bash (and do - me included).

***EDIT I just got back in the Web Business! ***

[kevbcharlton]

Tom, I agree with what your saying...anyone with good skills should charge what they are worth. But if they have good skills, yet dont have work coming in they may have to reduce their price a bit for a while to build a better portfolio.

They can then go back to charging the average price.

People can charge what they want, but the harsh reality is, is that it's a competitive business and sometimes you have to cut your price.

[creospace]

Sorry you can't give a proffesional service by selling a website for £100.

It's like getting your gas boiler serviced by someone who charges a fiver!

[seabro]

Creospace,

I have to disagree with you.

Although the post was meant in a light hearted way, I would have no objections to knocking up a website for £100.

However, If you pay £100 for a website, what you get is a £100 website.

On the other hand, the service you get from me, will certainly be nothing less than professional.

I certainly wouldn't turn my nose up at £100 for 2 hours work in the comfort of my own home - because thats all I would spend on it.

Take my villa website for example. www.kusadasivillarentals.com - I have managed to let the villa via the website and have lots of enquires. Now it took a bit longer than two hours but if someone wanted something similar they would only be looking at a few hundred quid and it works. It might not be as good as yours or macs or but its quick, it's cheap and it works.

[Coding Monkey]

Yep, fair enough, Kev. I'll agree with that.

But, Sean, that's the difference. That £100 website is NOT professional. I am so confident I'd increase the amount of queries with a redesign to give a professional image, with far more time spent on it. It might be 'professional' based on how you go about doing it, but to me the end result says it all. I could hire someone who takes 10 hours to do it, reads through all these books, checks up on everything, and clearly cares about their work - but that does not make the end result professional. That is where the term is overused.

[creospace]

Ok if you spend hours on end making a website and only charge £100 then I guess that is your look out. Yes of cause your villa site took longer and I would expect you to to charge 'a few hundred quid' what ever that is.

On another thread you have instantly quoted £150 to do a website, the fact is if the purchaser will only get a £150 website then that is all they value their business at which isn't really your problem but I don't think you should be tempting people with low rates as a 2hr website is well worthless regardless of the purchasers budget. A struggling salesman doesn't turn up in an Austin allegro after all :)

And their lies my point about professionalism, is it professional to lead a prospect down the garden path of potentially lowering the integrity of their own company by offering a £100 website ?

[creospace]

To take it one step further I think that posts that containing the phrase 'professional web design' and a figure around the £100 mark should be automatically deleted ;)

For the sake of the consumer of course :)

[seabro]

Creo,

As much as it gives a better image for a salesman to turn up in a merc than an austin allegro, not all salesmen can afford the merc.

Are you saying all saleman that can't afford a merc should walk? because an allegro is unprofessional?

If someone only has a small budget for a site then they can have a cheap site. And bottom line is, a site such as the villa site is better than no site at all because I do get enquiries and I have let it via the web. In fact I have never let it to anyone that wasnt through my cheap unprofessional £300 website.

And maybe if Tom did me an expensive overhaul I would get MORE enquiries but maybe I havent got the money for a Tom quality site.

It sounds to me like you want to take away the customers freedom to choose. In which case you better go to all the pound shops and tell them to stop selling crap that breaks as soon as you use it.

If I am in the wrong, and I can't see the obvious error of my opinion I apologise unreservedly.

[creospace]

If you were aware of that old adage you would know that the sales man neither walks or uses the allegro he saves and finds every penny he can so he can get that merc and make the right impression.

Professional in this context is a subjective term and there are no definitions of it to work to.

I don't do cheap websites because I won't put my name to anything that looks cheap. That is I charge more than £100 because I spend hours of time making it as good as I can without cutting corners because I know I’m only getting a low figure.

My prices though are still below market rate so my customers can enjoy the best of both worlds as I see it and I'm sure Tom's do as well.

I am not interested in removing freedom of choice I just think customers should not be persuaded that a cheap website will do, because it wont.

I think in 2006 and beyond you will start to see trend of people returning to value and quality rather than 'getting the best deal' it will become 'getting the best quality and value'. Thus those offering deals at seemingly lower than market value will immediately remove themselves from the bidding.

We'll see.

[Mwebb]

I would be intersted to know from UK based web designers whether they lose much business to overseas contractors. I have taken my development to Canada.....The exchange rate ( i pay in USD) makes it so cheap. To have the website developed that in this country would cost 50% more.

My site is not just a "boutique" site, it involves serious database coding........Any ideas why abroad was cheaper aswell?? Other than exchange rate??

[creospace]

because English SME's like to deal with English SME's?

[Mwebb]

sorry for being "dumb" SME's= what???

[kevbcharlton]

Small to Medium Enterprises.