Why so many "web design companies" on UKBF? [Archive]

Dermot

16th January 2006, 19:55

Think this post might of stemed out of my first post "where do i start"

Im a qualified web designer, computer science degree et al. The reason im tryin to start up a web design buisiness is because of the huge market there is out there.

Well the local market anyway, there are still loads of small businesses that dont understand the internet or the success a website might bring, with broadband this is starting to change and more and more people want their own site.

I designed a one page site for a friend of mine, hes an electrician who just wanted a few "homers". hes since left his job and is now working full time! I only charged him £50!

Enigma121

16th January 2006, 19:56

I agree with Mac, its the same for me, I'm an IT tech/network admin, call me whatever - and apparantly so is just about everyone that can install windows or set up next doors internet for them. The worst is, often the customer is happy because they dont realise its a cobbled together affair.

CALV

Which brings us to the next important point. STANDARDS.

We should educate our customers to understand the standards we work to and how to tell a good designer from a bad one based on the standards they adopt.

Run http://validator.w3.org/ against your low budget competitors site and more importantly recommend your prospective customers do the same.

Steve Roberts

16th January 2006, 20:02

Well I can't help thinking that if it's such a crowded market, where anyone and his dog can compete for next to nothing, why be in that sector in the first place?

Coding Monkey

16th January 2006, 20:03

Run http://validator.w3.org/ against your low budget competitors site and more importantly recommend your prospective customers do the same.

I suddenly noticed a surge in WC3 bots visiting me. What are you all saying? ;)

I would rather pay an IT expert £50 for 5 minutes work that solved my problem, than a newbie who charged £5/h and took 2 hours. All comes down to trust, how you perceive their expertise and understand the skill involved.

Coding Monkey

16th January 2006, 20:06

Well I can't help thinking that if it's such a crowded market, where anyone and his dog can compete for next to nothing, why be in that sector in the first place?

Because, there are few very high end web designers in a market filled with amateurs. I'd like to add I don't design, in case that comes across as cocky. I assure you, there's room where I'm aiming and working within, but it involves a struggle to get there, as you come across all the potential clients you don't want before reaching those that you do.

Enigma121

16th January 2006, 20:08

I suddenly noticed a surge in WC3 bots visiting me. What are you all saying? ;)

Ooops, I can't help feeling at least little bit responsible here. :lol:

Dermot

16th January 2006, 20:12

Steve Roberts

16th January 2006, 20:19

Coding Monkey

16th January 2006, 20:21

You reckon? Copywriter with 16 years experience produced that. He won't make that mistake again :twisted:

I also noticed a typo in your signature ;)

creospace

16th January 2006, 20:51

I don't think a degree or whatever in computer science makes some one a qualified web designer it just means they have a degree in computer science.

Occasionally you get a clever clogs who is creatively blessed too but only occasionally. The creative side gives birth to the designer.

If no design flair then you just are an owner of a computer degree.

Someone who is creatively blessed and then learns how to build websites using compliant code etc I would say is a web designer.

I am some one who can pass off both ok but I am no designer per se, I freely admit that. My skill is in analytical work of customer’s needs and giving them a solution. I don't have a perfect website, will never say I do and I'm unlikely to invite any criticism of said site.

I do have happy customers though.

Gary

Pixels Ink

16th January 2006, 20:53

The majority of any web work I get are re-designs due to companies giving thier sister's son/daughter the job as they got a 30 day trial of "insert generic WYSIWYG software" and did it for £50.

It is often much more difficult to do a re-design than it is from scratch due to the botch jobs and luckily most people see the benefit of a clean slate.

I however am not a web programmer and don't pretend to be one :), front end design is my domain and some CSS. I'll pay the geeks** for the backend stuff.

It is a very busy industry, but as long as there are amateurs creating websites, there are professionals waiting to tidy up the mess.

My main role is in graphic design and it is exactly the same situation with design for print as it is for the web.

Col

**meant in an endearing way

kartel

16th January 2006, 21:12

yes i agree. as in most subjects the piece of paper means nothing. it is how creative and in deisgn what imagination you have..

I for one do not call my self a Web designer. even though i have designed website's. I enjoy messing with dreamweaver and working on website's, I know about domain names and setting up hosting through ftp etc. which most web designer's should know anyways.

So what I am.. i dont have any formal qualifications to make me a web designer and have been told my work is a little better than some who in the buisness already.

so i must be a web designer of some sorts hehe..

just my humble opinion regards kartel

DuaneJackson

16th January 2006, 21:16

I'm a very good programmer. I can pick up any new langiage very quickly. I have an indepth understanding of TCP/IP down to the OSI layer and individual packets.

I can't design a website that looks good to save my life.

Conclusion? Technical ability has zero to do with the ability to design websites.

Sorry Dermot, this isn't a dig at you at all. It's just so-called web designers in general - I wouldn't know if you fall in to this category or not.

Shelley

16th January 2006, 21:29

well as said on previous posts, there is a market for it. Im just lucky, got a relative that understands it, not trying to make money, but for a hobby.

creacom

16th January 2006, 21:32

Myself and my business partner are designers with many years experience. Also for the moment we are the only 2 female designers that I have seen on this forum. :wink:

We have now cracked CSS and my business partner is in the middle of learning more and more PHP. Anything more than that and we would call on the services of a great programmer.

A computer science degree means nothing in designing. If you are not artistic you are not artistic. There are people who are and people who are not. Its not something you can teach or learn. You can learn to appreciate and learn to know what looks good. But then doing it is a whole other ball game.

To go back to the original question about why there are so many designers here. Well if we look at the quality in the quantity there are less than 5 here that I would ever consider passing work to.

I gave up a long time ago ( makes me sound so old ! ) counting how many hours a day I design for. If i dont take my head out of the screen every couple of hours to change my mind for 10 mins then Ill explode !

Jacqui :D

openmind

16th January 2006, 22:22

The actual term "web designer" is also quite misleading. The use of the word designer implies that they have a graphical talent. I personally struggle with drawing a stick man which is why I outsource the design elements...

Web developer is a closer match to what I do but there are many, many "web designers" out there who claim to be a designer, a developer, an seo expert, a web host and your best mate for life...

Jack of all trades and master of none? ;)

clairemackaness

16th January 2006, 22:41

You find that a lot of businesses who have their own "amateur" website are happy enough. Its so hard to explain to someone who doesnt understand computers, never mind the internet why their sites are soo bad!

They just say "yeah we have a website and we like it ok"

If only they knew how much a well designed and laid out website might improve their business. Arrgghh thats what frustrates me.

I think now though people are slowly coming round and seeing this potential, its now that the amateurs are getting caught out. And thus the pros will get more business! (hopefully! :D )

I'm one of these people, but when I get offers from every person in the world to do me a site, how on earth are we supposed to know which ones mean businesses. I would commend any web designer who did their work for free and then got paid when the business increased. That way us non techy folks with "Amatuer" websites might start to beleive all the hype.

openmind

16th January 2006, 22:46

I'm one of these people, but when I get offers from every person in the world to do me a site, how on earth are we supposed to know which ones mean businesses. I would commend any web designer who did their work for free and then got paid when the business increased. That way us non techy folks with "Amatuer" websites might start to beleive all the hype.

It is hard to sort the wheat from the chaff but that's why you should approach the designers clients and get their views on how they felt they were dealt with...

Although you would commend a designer who got paid on results, it's a completely impractical idea. The webby could build the finest looking website you could ever want but if the clients business was flawed then they would both lose out...

sreeves

17th January 2006, 00:20

Hey guys, just reading the topic just thought I would join in. I am not a web designer, or a graphic designer... I just love creating designs, wither it be on the web or on paper or other forms you may wish to think of and seeing the clients face when they are happy.

The best way for companies to pick the right designer is to look at their work and what they offer not how much espically if its their first company website, I think if someone looks at a creative persons work and likes what they do then thats the way it should be.

I also agree with the fact that degrees are usless, I got my degree when I was 19 and didnt start work in design until I was 21... it was all to do with experience (and starting the company myself, now with 7 staff). Its how your creative mind works thats the best.

I dont say I am better than anyone else, there are so many designers out there that are awsome. I come on this forum to get some feedback maybe meet a few people who then inturn become clients buts thats just the world of networking.

wwhhhoooo, finished.
cheers
Stevie.

creospace

17th January 2006, 05:20

I would commend any web designer who did their work for free and then got paid when the business increased. That way us non techy folks with "Amatuer" websites might start to beleive all the hype.

I do and have undertaken work on this basis. It's not risky if you do your homework and look at the deal. Transparency is key with the business you are working for. I do, and want to continue working with affinity group businesses and this is a great area to build a nice revenue stream.

One area is providing membership areas for associations or clubs and then getting paid per member and then the cost is spread through out the subs of the membership, hardly noticeable to them but all together in your pocket very lucrative.

In an industry where every Tom, Dick and Harry is at it you have to think out of the box to keep your head above water. Creative design isn’t always required but creative solutions are.

Gary

Coding Monkey

17th January 2006, 06:53

So what I am.. i dont have any formal qualifications to make me a web designer and have been told my work is a little better than some who in the buisness already.

so i must be a web designer of some sorts hehe..

I changed a light bulb last week. I don't call myself an electrician. I also helped my dad build a house a few years ago, but I'm certainly not a property developer or builder. The difference is that as someone already said, for £30 you've got a website. There's less risk involved, so more people are willing to try it.

Now, the difference comes clear when you take the term "web designer" out of context and consider it as a professional. After all, it's a job title, and therefore you would associate it with a professional, which is undoubtedly why everyone calls themselves a professional web designer. Going back to Duane's points, I have 2 designers, and I don't know what they got in their GCSEs, A-Level, or if they have a degree. I asked for a portfolio, it was stunning. Next question: are they reliable? Quick phone call - yes, hired. End of subject. In fact, their personal portfolio's were better than 85% of web design companies that I come across, based on design and technical ability.

Yes, I know what to look for, but their portfolio consists of mainly images, not websites. Surely the average person can tell the difference between a good and bad design? My clients certainly can, and 95% of them already had a badly designed website in the first place that achieved nothing.

Coding Monkey

17th January 2006, 06:57

Although you would commend a designer who got paid on results, it's a completely impractical idea. The webby could build the finest looking website you could ever want but if the clients business was flawed then they would both lose out...

Exactly. Also, if they're not marketing the website or hiring you to market the website, it's not going to result in anything either. If no one knows about it, it won't achieve anything; if no one wants what you're selling, it achieves nothing.

mattk

17th January 2006, 07:34

The other reason there are so many "Web designers", not just on these forums, but out in the wild, is due to the level of gullibility shown by customers.

Would you let a kid, who operates out of his garden shed and who has no experience or qualifications service your car? Of course you wouldn't.

However, would you let a kid, who operates out of his bedroom, who has no qualifications or experience build you a Web site? Well, it seems like plenty of people would.

Common sense seems to go out the window when someone picks a Web designer.

creospace

17th January 2006, 07:38

Come on all you kid web designers, out of the closet NOW!

We know who you are and we know your parents!

:)

webit

17th January 2006, 07:57

I wounder what the split between designers and developers is. I'm a coder. I can use Dreamweaver as well as most designers and can find my way around Photoshop but I'm not a designer even though I have had some design work out their in the past fronting Hight Street business sites.

I code in J2EE (main skill set) and doing some PHP. My expertise in back end intergration and DB driven sites.

I am a professional developer. Thats what I'm paid to to.

cjd

17th January 2006, 08:01

I suppose the point is that anyone with a PC and access to the net can create a web site and anyone can call themselves a web designer.

The barriers to entry are low to non-existant and a it's a big and growing market so there's all sorts of sites out there; good, bad and ugly.

But it's not much diferent from any high street, big little and crappy looking shops - all that matters is that the site is fit for purpose.

A web designer will always snear at DIY sites but that's not the point, 'does it work?' is the only question that matters.

I like to see Amazon's first attempt......

DavidHorn

17th January 2006, 08:02

Oh my.

Mostly (and predictably) I agree with what Tom is saying ... there are so many 'web designers' out there with a copy of FrontPage and a bunch of clipart. It's a joke. But there's a top end of the market where professional design / development companies 'exist' that is knowledgeable and profitable for us.

As was stated in a previous post / discussion, I've nothing against these 50 pound designers - I've had a few contracts from people who were fed up with their designs and decided to free up more budget and get the job done with me. That's fine with me.

It's the same in any profession though - you get what you pay for. There's plenty of cheap plumbers / lawyers / builders / etc. out there, but do you want to hire them? Why is your website (your online business) less important than your legal affairs - or your plumbing?

Claire - would you accept a commission for a piece of artwork knowing that you were only going to get paid if it improved my quality of life? Probably not. You let your portfolio speak for itself ... you provide references of other people who were satisfied with your work ... as with any other purchase - be it business based or consumer based, the onus is on the customer to do due diligence before a purchase.

Anyway, I guess the question was: why so many web designers on this forum. My answers would be:

a) It's a good place to network ... I've been on the forum only about 2 weeks ... I've made 2 solid business contacts - one of which has led to work, the other of which is providing invaluable advice to me.

b) To provide help to others when I have expertise that others may not. Everyone likes to feel useful, loved and wanted (don't we?). Joining and contributing to a forum is a good way to achieve that.

David

Coding Monkey

17th January 2006, 08:26

A web designer will always snear at DIY sites but that's not the point, 'does it work?' is the only question that matters.

I like to see Amazon's first attempt......

You kinda said it yourself there. Their first attempt. Clearly not the success it could have been. When building websites and choosing someone to build them, I'd demand WC3, CSS over tables, cross-browser compatability etc etc blah blah, yet I don't demand it when looking at a home made website and certainly wouldn't care about them, but I'd still not buy from them for their lack of commitment to their company, and my lack of trust in that, whether it's true or not.

I also wouldn't sneer at a home made website if it did work, but I've yet to see one that couldn't be altered to significantly increase sales.

openmind

17th January 2006, 08:35

I like to see Amazon's first attempt......

Earliest I could fins was October 13, 1999

http://web.archive.org/web/19991013091817/http://amazon.com/

Not a huge amount of difference to how it is now ;)

Richard Conyard

17th January 2006, 08:37

I guess that is because Amazon isn't a person, but they hired in a team of professionals.

Dermot

17th January 2006, 08:43

Earliest I could fins was October 13, 1999

http://web.archive.org/web/19991013091817/http://amazon.com/

Not a huge amount of difference to how it is now

Amazon isnt the most attractive website, but does it have to be?

For me it's really about the functionality, searchability and navigation structure. Im not saying im a perfect designer, but I feel I have the ability to put together a professional looking and working website.

I know not to fall into the trap of animated gifs, clipart and musical backgrounds....even saying that sounds amateurish though!

Richard Conyard

17th January 2006, 08:55

This went out a while back, might help clear up the line between des and dev (or it might not ;) )

"Looking good Billy Ray, Feeling good Lewis"

If you've not seen Trading Places it follows the story of two people from different backgrounds, how they handle switching roles and how much better they work together. The past few years have seen designers and programmers independently moving into the field of web design. The result is often feeling good or looking good, but rarely both.

First impressions count, designs from talented designers regardless of background will invariably look good. Whilst print work looks the same in your clients hands as it did leaving the printers, websites have to look good on a range of different places.

HTML (the language behind web pages), is not a design language. A good web designer will know how to use HTML to produce web sites that look good on a variety of different screens, browsers and computers; and that they can be viewed using a modem or broadband without a long wait. This has led to a number of print houses partnering with web design houses to ensure that the right impression is made.

A lot of companies now have a website. Normally a few pages saying about the company along with the address, telephone number and maybe a shop, but websites can do more.

With broadband and good programming websites can act as a hub for your business handling all of the mundane tasks to get real ROI. Some of the areas that websites can manage are stock control, document management, client tracking, video and animation, time sheets and supply chain integration. If it can be done on a computer it is likely is can be integrated into a website.

Looking good and feeling good relies on both designer and programmer working in tandem to produce the best results for your company. With a good web design company you get functionality that is usable; you get both style and substance. In choosing a web design company make sure the company has the best of both so they can ensure your website is working for you.

cjd

17th January 2006, 08:55

Oh, Amazon is much older than that - it started without tabs if I remember rightly......must have been early mid 90s.

You can get away with DIY if you have something new and intersting - but if you're going to sell, say, books, the level of the bar is now set very high.

MinuWeb

17th January 2006, 08:56

The question should also be asked, how many "web designers" on UKBF are actually registered companies

Coding Monkey

17th January 2006, 09:02

Fair point, Tony. Registered on April Fool's day last year. But we're not a joke ;)

And that's pretty much how I'd explain it, Richard. I see many graphic designers make awful websites because of browser issues as they don't understand what they're doing.

MinuWeb

17th January 2006, 09:09

Registered on April Fool's day last year. But we're not a joke ;)

Nothing wrong with that, makes a great talking point if someone asks :D

mattk

17th January 2006, 09:14

webit

17th January 2006, 09:23

Halifax, Barcleys, Prudential, HBoS, GECapital, More Than, FirstAssist, Royal & SunAlliance ... I could go on.

Most of my work is still on their, all backend site intergration, all my own work.

No real formal training or even a Degree to my name.

mattk

17th January 2006, 09:39

Exactly. That's what's know as experience.

However, if you look at most "designer's" portfolios you'll see Web sites for the local corner shop, Brother-in-law's plumbing firm etc.

MinuWeb

17th January 2006, 09:41

The question should also be asked, how many "web designers" on UKBF are actually registered companies
Why does being a registered company offer any kind of legitimacy to someones claims of being a Web designer?

Surely a better question would be how many "Web designers" actually have experience of working on blue-chip company Web sites? Because there are so many that are not registered at all, don't pay taxes on the money they earn and if they are willing to behave in such a manner on a business basis why would you expect them to behave any differently when in the work they produce.

Top Hat

17th January 2006, 09:51

Is it my imagination, or is every other business on this site into web-design of some sort?

I agree lets have a cull :wink: tally ho

But it's not much different from any high street, big little and crappy looking shops - all that matters is that the site is fit for purpose.

Agree, for me web design is all about, serving users, either info or product easily, there is too much emphasis on graphic design, should be more about functional design, usability, navigation. The best most successful web sites are simple, simple graphics, (Yahoo, Google, Amazon)

The question should also be asked, how many "web designers" on UKBF are actually registered companies
Why does being a registered company offer any kind of legitimacy to someones claims of being a Web designer?

Surely a better question would be how many "Web designers" actually have experience of working on blue-chip company Web sites?

Surely the question is, how many are making a living, doesn't matter who you work for.

JustOneUK

17th January 2006, 10:57

yes i agree. as in most subjects the piece of paper means nothing. it is how creative and in deisgn what imagination you have..

i disagree ...and agree with that.
there should be more distinct groups of webdesigners for sure..

those who can do pretty designs, heavy on impact, features, coding blah blah, and those who make simple sites that convert well and make money.
there is also a lot of scope for some in-between categories there too.

webcommerce designer could be a good name.
websculptor perhaps another, or webspecialist? (who is actually qualified in some way)

the term webdesigner is definately too broad IMO.

the hardest field is SEO, no one wants to pay, but they all want to be #1 in google, as if it's a god given right.

creospace

17th January 2006, 10:59

'database architect' I sometimes use.

There is still an design element when producing back end user solutions just no or very little graphics.

Tin

17th January 2006, 12:03

justone wrote:
the hardest field is SEO, no one wants to pay, but they all want to be #1 in google, as if it's a god given right.

Spot on! totally agree with that.
There's also the fact that 'they can't actually see much difference' between non seo & seo'd pages design wise so they naturally think 'why pay for something I either can't understand or can't see?
Happily, I only get clients who know they need it :-)

Mortime Business Software

17th January 2006, 13:40

'database architect' I sometimes use.

There is still an design element when producing back end user solutions just no or very little graphics.

Definitely. In fact the majority is requirements analysis, negotiation, thought, design and specification, with the source code forming the smallest percentage of a project.

When I write an application of any significant size, I want to write it in as natural a way as possible so that any future developers can take a minimum amount of time to understand it. The true mark of an amateur is diving straight into the code.

Dave

Cornish Steve

17th January 2006, 18:37

Well I noticed a typo on your web-site:

"When it comes to your website design and your marketing, unique coding is cool, too (and better than the parachute)."

There shouldn’t be a comma after cool. :wink:
For the record, there should be a comma after Well, and website has no hyphen. ;)

Mortime Business Software

17th January 2006, 18:54

Don't worry about it Steve. Don't argue about it.

Anyone who starts picking at typos, and even spelling/grammatical mistakes, within an informal environment like this is just embarrassing themselves. Of course I don't mean you. ;)

Dave

Coding Monkey

17th January 2006, 18:59

I take it as a compliment, Dave. Obviously couldn't find anything wrong with the design ;)

bwglaw

17th January 2006, 19:07

Have you all agreed on the definition of "web designer" yet? What is it? ;)

JamesWx

17th January 2006, 20:50

I don't go around calling myself a 'Web Designer', although I do have web developer in my profile here.

Most of the work I do is to existing sites. So, the design (and maybe the CMS was set up with the content in) is done, but the company who did it wanted too much to maintain the site. Or a company already has a guy who looks after the site and just wanted things changing, content moving etc. Overtime I've changed templates and things too on these systems. The other thing that comes with that is not being able to include them in a portfolio, and they do take up most of my time.

I'm a big fan of CSS and having clean, valid pages at the moment (and for the future too, I hope!). I really like the stuff that was done for the CSS Reboot last year - I think it looks so much better than some stuff out there.

Increasingly I've started to put customers on to simple CMS systems (with some training), like Drupal. They really like being able to sit down and have a play, add what their company is doing, publish press releases and other bits without having to contact me.

I absolutely agree that there are a lot of people doing it. I know a number of people who do web design, and some of it is less than impressive. Being a Firefox user I code for Firefox, and fix IE later. Some guys I know code for IE6, tell the customer it's done and that's it. I check it out for them, send a screenshot of it on my PC and the response is normally "Not that many people use it, not that important". Sure IE has more users, but I quickly leave a site that doesn't work properly.

I'll just mention for the sake of the thread I used to work out of a bedroom but now in an office out of town, as a limited company and paying my way. And I've never done a site in FrontPage. :wink:

JustOneUK

17th January 2006, 21:12

Have you all agreed on the definition of "web designer" yet? What is it? ;)

someone mentioned "Jack of all trades, master of none" it must be that, the name webdesigner is being degraded on a minute by minute basis.

Personally I am a Webspecialist :D

{it has a certain ring to it} :wink:

bwglaw

17th January 2006, 22:12

So youve agreed to make webdesigner one word now!

The lack of definition is probably due to the lack of the 'profession' being regulated in some way.

A plumber can usually call himself a plumber when he/she is accepted by the trade association - that is what the web profession needs, a universal representative association.

The profession is also fragmentated because of the so-called amateurs (trainee is a better word) coming on board and those who see themselves as professionals go on to specialise as the technology develops.

When is a profession a profession one might ask?. I think when it has a representative trade association, or some kind of regulatory duties.

JustOneUK

17th January 2006, 22:32

So youve agreed to make webdesigner one word now!
absolutely, and I am copyrighting the term Webspecialist
There is only 663 instances of it in Google, so I am going to pretend to have invented the term :wink:

Coding Monkey

18th January 2006, 08:10

When is a profession a profession one might ask?. I think when it has a representative trade association, or some kind of regulatory duties.

The thing is, there's so many different ways to do something. I wouldn't say a web designer isn't a web designer because they design a website that doesn't work in Safari or Opera, or that because they use tables over CSS. I wouldn't hire them if they did, but I wouldn't say they're not web designers - I'd just consider them less knowledgeable on the subject.

bwglaw

18th January 2006, 08:20

Just like you said Tom, you can change a light bulb but you do not call yourself an electrician. I can change a washer but I do not call myself a plumber.

With these two examples, we would not call ourselves an electrician/plumber because we know they have to have a certain standard adopted by a trade association.

On the other hand, they can call themselves web designers because they can do 1 page etc. However, they will not be accepted as professional web designers conforming to a universal standard by a trade association. That again, may be debatable in the absence of a trade association!

When I first started in law, I used some titles rather loosely and because of my connections with local law firms the local Law Society came across my using of the term 'trainee solicitor' - I was training, I was at Uni - but because of regulatory control they dicatated what I can call myself. Did not get into trouble because I knew the lawyer who was representing the Law Society in the area. Phew ;)

Coding Monkey

18th January 2006, 08:24

But, at the same time, you could have someone learning to be a plumber, who offers to help a neighbour and they go offer and do the work. The only difference between that and a "web designer" is you can find out about the web designer through a Google search.

I do agree, but to an extent. As it might mean having to be qualified through certification, and the best designers I see have no qualifications/degree/certificates in web design. They're just stunning graphic designers, who trained to learn about the web.

Really, the problem will be solved when I have a dozen companies on a nationwide basis ;)

creospace

18th January 2006, 09:22

There should be some national trade body where you pay to join and you can't join unless you reach a certian standard, rather like iso9000 or something similar. Then the standard is publicised and everyone looking for a good developer can go here to find one.

Now it soudns like the ukwda but that is a complete farce with every tom dick and harry on it. This would be faily strickt on who joins, don't reach the standards can't join etc.

Anyone fancy partnering to start this up? :)

Gary

Coding Monkey

18th January 2006, 09:25

I'd just be interested what the standard was. I know what a good design is. I know what's involved in making a good website. I know the psychology of it, etc etc. In order for the web design standard concept to work, it would have to involve a panel of experts in web design who didn't run companies, as otherwise it could be seen to be biased by not allowing competitors in.

Do think it's a good idea, though.

creospace

18th January 2006, 09:29

Yes it would be a panel of 'experts' you want get any without companies though.

Guess it depends on the adminsitration of it, if it was run as a not for profit. Transparent administration and set standards means there is no room for biased opinions. You either reach the standard or you don't (what ever the standard is)

If there was a arbitration requirement then you bring in out of industry individuals to offer a final decision.

Gary

mattk

18th January 2006, 10:31

But trade bodies don't stop dodgy plumbers - you only have to watch an episode of Watchdog to see that!

As Tom said, how would you define standards? Maybe if we had let Microsoft take over the Net then they would offer some nice certification for everyone to try and pass.

creospace

18th January 2006, 10:34

well yes defining the standards is the issue thats why I havent attempted it, and wouldn't do it alone.

Yes there are always crooks but if work can be spot checked and audited as part of the service the risk is reduced.

'Maybe if we had let Microsoft take over the Net' heaven forbid!

Gary

mattk

18th January 2006, 10:51

It all sounds VERY expensive to me!

creospace

18th January 2006, 11:09

Actually I don't know what other trade bodies charge to be a member and associasted with?

Full web design / web development companies are generally rolling in it i'm sure a joining fee of £25 or £50 isn't that unreasonable?

To be honest I have no idea, the concept has been running around my head for a while, more because i knew if there was one I would join!

Gary

mattk

18th January 2006, 11:13

Not to join - but to run. Exams, certification, spot checks, auditing.

The problem is there's no "right way" to build a site. So one developer's ideal solution might be another developer's toilet roll. This is the main problem with things like MCSD. The Microsoft way (ie. what you need to know to pass exams) very often isn't the way people actually work in the real work.

creospace

18th January 2006, 11:17

Yeah always problems I guess and it would only happen if there was a meeting of many minds and a proposal thrashed out.

It will never be perfect but there has to be some way to sort the wheat from the chaf surely?

mattk

18th January 2006, 11:34

The British Computer Society uses a points scoring system to work out membership. It works roughly like:

If you have a IT-related degree: 10 points
If you have an IT certification, like MCSE: 10 points
One point for every year experience you have working in the IT industry

etc. etc.

They then grade you Associate (low), Member (middle) and Fellow (high).

The main problem with this system is that it fails to differentiate between someone who has 20-years experience doing data entry and someone who has 20-years experience as an IT director.

PS. Yes, I do have membership. No, I didn't pay for it. No, it's not worth it!