Should we separate church from state?

[Cornish Steve]

Should the church be separated from the state in modern Britain? In particular, is it right for the reigning monarch to be the head of the church? Is it unfair to followers of other faiths to live in a country that is officially Christian? Is it unfair on the church to have to live with decisions imposed on it by the government?

I can't help but think that the histories of Ireland and Northern Ireland would be quite different if there was no national religion. If the UK was not officially Protestant, the Catholics in the south might not have felt strongly enough to become independent. If Ireland was not officially a Catholic country (with Catholic schools, Catholic prayers on TV, etc.), maybe the citizens of the north would be less averse to unification.

[mumper]

I think the church should be totally apart from any kind of politics. Religion is a personal thing and the state should have no say in it.



I can't help but think that the histories of Ireland and Northern Ireland would be quite different if there was no national religion.

I tend to agree on this one Steve but I also think that the religious issue was lost somewhere along the way as others with their own agendas appeared on the scene. By the end of the conflict I don't know if anyone knew what the real issue was.

I won't be back at my desk until this evening so It'll be interesting to see how this thread develops - I think you might have started another long one Steve :D

[Rob Holmes]

Bit hard really as aparently the 10 commandments formed the foundations of most of the western worlds laws.

Rob

[Jayne]

Church out, God stays.

Churches are just buildings and people who run them. They should have no say over our law.

I agree with Rob on the commandments, God got that bit right :D

Jayne

[ink4-u]

its a tough one, but that fact is this is a Christian country. It always has been and i think it should always be. Everyone has to admit there is an immigration problem in the UK, which needs to be controlled. If we say that this isn't a Christian country anymore it clears the way for some people of other faiths to think well this can be the faith of this country then or this can. That will spark racial tension and this community integration plan wouldn't work. The fact is people come to live here knowing this is a Christian country, they still choose to live here. And this so called removing it as the official religion in the UK is wrong. If people don't like how we live in the UK then why come here in the first place?

[Coding Monkey]

Everyone has to admit there is an immigration problem in the UK, which needs to be controlled.

I don't. In fact, it's a gross misconception and immigration is a problem, as Scotland has found out. They're now asking people to immigrate as more people left than entered, and if you looked at the proper statistics, you would see our dependency on immigration for many types of work, skilled or not. What you don't hear about are the number of people leaving, and why would you? You're not going to read about it in an English newspaper, but Spain, where 50% of properties that were purchased last year were by British people, might have something to say about it.

You can word anything to make it sound bad, and you'll read about specific cases where the increase in immigration will result in x more houses for x more years in the Daily Mail, but, please, stop immigration, and go to your local NHS where you'll be delighted to find the lack of help available. Or is that my ignorance?

[ink4-u]

well, its catch 22 i dont live in Scotland i live in Manchester and i can see that this area of the UK has a high immigration problem. Talking of wording its the same of both sides. I agree with you on one thing that British people are leaving the UK. Is there any research as to why? I dont think so, i am sure i know the reason why. But i dont feel we like in a free speech state this is called.

[Coding Monkey]

I would hazzard a guess at it being property/investment related, and I'd bet the weather would come into it.

Yet, with the point of immigration, I suspect you notice it purely because of the discrepancy in skin colour/apperance rather than it being an overcrowded area. Statistically, London and the South East are the most populated with immigrants, and many from an Asian background. However, 99% of them are they're merely people trying to make a living, like any British born citizen. I believe if you enter another country, you should abide by their laws and respect their traditions, but respecting them and following them are different ideas entirely. For example, if I went to China, I still wouldn't eat a dog, yet neither would I actively protest against it - I would merely not take part, and that can apply to anyone, whether they're indigenous or foreign.

[ink4-u]

exactly. so would you go to china and open a church? would you go to china and say erm i dont eat dogs so i dont think you should. Well, i think the answer is NO!

So when certain types of immigrants come to England opening Mosques, Synagogues and all that is that right? Is that respecting the UK as a christian country? yes are multi cultural apparently. But i think that goes with lots of problems and i can see how it will end. a CULTURE is a way people live. Would you say the English culture is different from the African? i would say YES it is. So when you are allowing people in to the UK and then allowing them to bring their culture with them do they respect the UK's culture? if they do why try to implement their own culture? If they like their country that much they want to bring the culture why come here? This is a never ending debate that most people will never agree on.

[mumper]

50% of properties that were purchased last year were by British people, might have something to say about it.

This is true. My father-in-law has lived in Spain for just over six years now and tells us that the Brit population over there is growing very fast year on year. There are definitely more people leaving the UK than there are coming in.

However, I don't think the problem in the UK is immigration so much as freeloaders and spongers arriving here to fleece the system and get something for nothing. Genuine immigrants who want to work, are I think generally made welcome and are an asset to the country.

[ink4-u]

well said. but you have to be so careful what you say these days in this country of free speech because you can get done.

However, I don't think the problem in the UK is immigration so much as freeloaders and spongers arriving here to fleece the system and get something for nothing. Genuine immigrants who want to work, are I think generally made welcome and are an asset to the country.

[creacom]

If we say that this isn't a Christian country anymore it clears the way for some people of other faiths to think well this can be the faith of this country then or this can. That will spark racial tension and this community integration plan wouldn't work.

I dont agree. Its not because people have different religions that causes tension and hatred. Its the lack of understanding and education by others that does.

Immigration is not a bad thing. In Scotland we have seen a lot of people from East Europe come here in the last 2 years. They have fully integrated into society and there are very few problems. We need people because as Mac stated more and more people are leaving Scotland yet more and more businesses are relocating here.

I dont see why Britain has to continue to be Christian. There are many other countries that have now stated religion and integrate everyone very well.

Jacqui

[creacom]

I don't think the problem in the UK is immigration so much as freeloaders and spongers arriving here to fleece the system and get something for nothing.

Mumper and Ink 4 u have you seen how many UK born people fall into the category or freeloaders and spongers ? I think that problem far outweighs any foreign people doing it.

[ink4-u]

just changed that quote from me you made there, i got that from mumper reply

[Jayne]

lol.. I was just going to say that Jacqui :lol:

People are people know matter where they lived before. If they work hard, are honest and don't break the law. That is what I respect, not which name they use for God :D

Jayne

[Coding Monkey]

So when certain types of immigrants come to England opening Mosques, Synagogues and all that is that right?

Right to who? I don't see it as a crime, or anything that should be looked down upon. Each sector has their own standards. I said in another thread about homosexuality and how I wouldn't expect the church to change their minds on it instantly, just as have said about Britain not changing. But, does that make it right?
Also, in my post above, I was saying that you shouldn't have to take part on it, so expecting people to abide by this Christian ideology is doing exactly what you seem to fear - taking away freedom of speech, and expression. If everyone had to be the same, that would be the worst state of all, yet we have the freedom to do as we wish. A society and a culture are different concepts, and Britain will have a majority of Christians in comparison to other religions, but our society is not. They join our society and abide by our laws, which then allows them to create their own cultures.

[creacom]

Well everyone has the right to follow their religion no ? Surely a Christian would agree ?

Yes a mosque is right, they are not all cover ups for international terrorists and anti-western policies. Yes synagogues are right too.

So what do we do ? Tell the Muslims and Jews - yes come here, live in this country, pay your taxes, send you kids to school but dont think you will have the right to practice your religion ?

Thats where the problems start.

[Cornish Steve]

So what do we do ? Tell the Muslims and Jews - yes come here, live in this country, pay your taxes, send you kids to school but dont think you will have the right to practice your religion ?
It's a credit to Western society that this is indeed our attitude. As a world traveller, let me point out that there are many regimes around the world that do not grant the right to practice your own religion. We are lucky to live in countries where freedom of speech and freedom of religion are cherished as fundamental principles.

[mumper]

Mumper and Ink 4 u have you seen how many UK born people fall into the category or freeloaders and spongers ? I think that problem far outweighs any foreign people doing it.

You're right of course - I didn't mean to imply that it was only immigrants that abused the system. We are all aware that a great deal of the problem is closer to home.

[Mortime Business Software]

I don't know if this is true but, the other day I heard that we are now giving economic migrants (posing as asylum seekers) £2000 of tax payer's money. This is so they can buy a car because they feel uncomfortable on buses.

Dave

[ewan]

Can't be true...... if it is............ knock me down with a feather

[Jayne]

I read it too Ewan, think it's quite true. I think i'll try for a car, i'm ever so scared of busses :lol:

Jayne

[Mortime Business Software]

I read it too Ewan, think it's quite true. I think i'll try for a car, i'm ever so scared of busses :lol:

Jayne

Just fake an accent and shout "I claim asylum" down at your local cop shop. You'll also get a mobile phone so you can keep in touch with your fellow asylum seekers. This is so you won't feel lonely.

I saw part of a documentary on the TV a few months ago. Some under-cover journalist filmed a travel agent in Pakistan telling a customer that England was the easiest place to enter illegally. He told the customer that he must throw away any documents (such as passport) before arriving in the UK, and that on claiming asylum, he would be looked after like a king.

I had to stop watching because it was making me feel sick with anger. I wasn't angry with the people who planned to do this because if I were in their shoes, living in filthy poverty, I would be tempted to do the same. I was, and still am, angry with the way our governments allow this **** to continue.

Dave

[Jayne]

I find those sort of documentaries hard to watch too, the people outside the UK must think we are all stupid and we are not. If it was the other way around, do you think we would be given a car and a phone..No, we'd be booted straight back home with our hands slapped.

I have no problem with legal immigrants at all, just the ones that try it on for freebies I have no time for.

Jayne :D

[ink4-u]

I don't know if this is true but, the other day I heard that we are now giving economic migrants (posing as asylum seekers) £2000 of tax payer's money. This is so they can buy a car because they feel uncomfortable on buses.

Dave

its true

[creacom]

Is it not that they are getting £2000 anyway and a lot of them choose to spend it on cars ?

How and why do you think these people come here ? They word hard to earn enough money for it. They have families back in their countries and a lot of them work even harder so they can send money back and have a life here.

They pay their taxes like the rest of us. I cant believe that you all feel so threatened by other people wanting to make a life for themselves. They wont steal your car, take your job or have an affair with your partner anymore than the UK born citizen next to you will !

[creospace]

Coming back on topic, remember that a church is not the building but the people insode it, more of a community.

Also the state church , church of England is only one denomination within many that are nothing to do with the state.

A true split from state is probably more what occured during the reformation 500 years ago, thats a far cry from wht is proposed here.

Gary

[MinuWeb]

I am not religious, however I see no problem with being a Christian country, as Steve mentioned above, there are alot of places in the world where visitors / immigrants are not allowed to practise their own religion, and some even have very strict clothing laws.

If I went to a country and didn't like the laws & religion of that country, I wouldn't expect them to change, I would either put up with it or leave.


"When in Rome......"

[dagr]

Yes, State (politics) & Church (religion) should be separate. In the UK today, this is mainly a theoretical debate as the church doesn't play an active role in politics. However, in other countries, this debate is far less anodine.

Basically, State is dealing with practical matters, providing a framework that lets almost everybody get along to some degree. This is achieved through debate, compromise, deal-making, arm-twisting, etc. Religion is "irrational" - and I say that in a non-pejorative way: you can't prove it (and neither should you have to or try to). It just IS.

Trouble comes when people try to bring this "irrational" justification into an area that needs practical solutions, irrespective of their motives. "God told me that this is the right thing to do". You can't argue with that, or prove that it's the wrong policy.

Also, the basis for the ten commandments was there long before any religion formalised it.

[dagr]

On the side issue here of immigrants & scroungers: Funny how no one points the finger at middle-class Brits who go off abroad to retire in EU countries where health spending is significantly higher than in the UK, burdening the health systems there without having contributed significantly through income taxes during their active working lives when they were less likely to need healthcare.

I'm not suggesting that all Brits abroad are scroungers, just pointing out that it's not as clearcut as is made out in the scaremongering medias.

[bci]

<<<<<
Should the church be separated from the state in modern Britain?
<<<<<

Absolutely ..... religious cults have no place in a modern society!

The church is wonderful for weddings (and funerals). Sort of traditional! However, it's time for humanity to grow up and set aside this primal longing for an invisible friend - or is it primal fear of an all powerful tyrant? Obey or I'll drown 99.999% of humanity again .....

But times have changed and a more humane society has created a gentler kinder god! Well, some societies anyway. Man has always created god in his own image ...