Changes to UKBF

[Ozzy]

Hi Folks,
I am meeting a developer on Thursday to talk through the redesign of these forums, and being an honest person I don't mind saying the basis is that I want to start earning some money from them whilst maintaining their usefulness :)

Here are my thoughts and what is being developed, and I'd appreciate all your feedback on this.

These forums are the busiest and top 1 or 2 most successful business forums by way of activity and membership in the UK now. They have been running for 3 years now as a completely free resource, and although I "sell" advertising on these forums I have not been pushing the advertising, there is no structure to it, and its take up is ... well ... slow ;)

I am planning on introducing the following, and my reasons for each item is detailed next to it.

Reduce number of free forums
I plan to reduce the number of free forums that people who join and use the forums for free get access to. This will be narrowed down to just 3-4 forums.
This is to focus the users who use the forums for free into these core area's, boost activity and reduce the amount of space that the moderators need to keep an eye on that isn't earning any money.

Restricted free membership
The forums will still be free to join, but with restricted functionality. These restrictions will be;
No signature
Unable to post URL links
Cannot list in the members business directory
Cannot send PMs (but may be able to reply if technically possible)
The purpose for these restrictions is two fold, firstly to reduce the number of spam signups of people who just sign up and spam the forums with links to their site in sig. and posts but to also add some value to membership.

Indroduce Paid Membership
People can become paid members of the forums which gives them special status. I am thinking of values in the region of a few quid a month or similar. Something small enough to be attractive to small startups, sole traders and those who join for the community but enough to put off someone who just wants to spam.
Paid members will have access to all the tools restricted above, but also get access to a few others unmoderated (within reason) forums.
By discussing with paid members only in these unlocked forums I envisage more focused business discussions and imprved networking. I do not want to become another Ecademy though.
The business directory will be a categories directory for members and non-paid members to search for a particular type of business (plus search engines to crawl).
There will be stricter guidelines for signatures, but members will be able to add signatures to their posts and post URL links in their messages. These again allow clicking through plus search engine crawling.
PM's - say no more :)

Rate Me
Paid members can rate other members on their credability and contributions. I am also looking at the technicality of members being able to select their area of expertise from a drop down list of options.

Sponsorship/Advertising
Advertising and sponsorship opprtunities will be more structured on the forums, goes without saying really.

Business Resources Area
The forums are to become part of a larger site, offering information and resources on running a business. Much like startups.co.uk in a manner, but not as overwhelming :)
The content I am planning on being contributed by members who sponsor that channel of information by providing the content. No money will change hands, but it follows the community support theme of the forums. A member provides the information on a subject their specialise in and get the credability and advertising of their services.
ie. Crossguard could provide informative articles on copyright and trademark registration, and that section becomes sponsored by Crossguard with all their contact information banner etc. (and link to their forum profile).

So, what's your thoughts guys? Feedback greatly received.
Ultimately, I want the forums to continue to grow and remain successful and don't want to make any changes that will ruin that, but at the same time earn some money. Not just for me and to cover costs, but I'd also like the moderators to earn something for their time also.

[Jayne]

How much will it be for a years membership?

If I cannot afford it, I will cry buckets :lol:

Jayne

[Coding Monkey]

Jayne, you're responsible for at least 20% of the bandwidth bills each month. Without you, we wouldn't need to pay ;)

In all seriousness, I have no problem with it, but I think you'd have struggled to persuade me when I first signed-up. Just make it as clear as possible that you don't need to pay to sign-up, but do to get the extra features.

[Jayne]

But without me here, there may not be as many members, i'm always here to help people if I can and I try to chat to everyone :D

I tell everyone in business I know to join too :D

Jayne

[DuaneJackson]

I like the ideas.

I'm not sure about the business resource stuff though. There are so many sites out there doing this already. What I like about UKBF is it's forums. Just forums. Nothing else.

Regarding paid membership. I'd have no problem coughing up a few quid every month, or even paying annually if there is a discount. Although, like Tom, I'm not sure I would have been sold on this when I first came here. Unless the free forums are very good (in which case what extras does the paid-for forums offer?) then it'd be a hard sell and I don't think the community will grow as quickly as it has.

I hope you're going to ask the developers to get rid of the querystrings in the URLS. You have so much great content here - thousands upon thousands of pages. If this was indexable then you'd get so much more traffic from the organic listings.

[Jayne]

Oh I forgot to say, yes I like the idea, but i'll want a badge, to say i'm a UKBF member. Like caravan and camping do :D

Jayne

[mattk]

Again, I'm not sure about the subscriptions. If the only free forums are general banter and chit-chat then I think you'll struggle to get new members.

Also, if people pay for membership then they are likely to want something back for their money and the forums might become one giant advert.

I think you might be opening a can of worms with a rate me feature.

[MarkPearson]

The plans sound fair and decent.

As long as the membership fees are not too much I don't object to any of this.

I use another forum which is a domian name forum www.dnforum.com and they use a tiered forum system so everyone can read all the forum sections, but only paid members can reply to the 'premium' areas.

The business directory is a good idea.

[MarkPearson]

Will everybody, including non member be able to read all the forums?

I think this is important as it will entice new members to upgrade so they can join in.

[creacom]

I think the plans sound good so far and I wont have a problem with paying some sort of subscription charge.

UKBF is very popular and I dont think thats just because its free. Of course its a factor but there are other reasons too. The site is moderated very well which makes a change from other forums !

You could maybe offer new members a trial period of 5 days or something like that. That way they can have a taster of whats to come.

I think you touched upon it in your brief but you could do a kind of monthly sponsorhip of some of the different forums or sections. For example on the Marketing forum - JCB Marketing pays a small fee and then they have to find a different marketing topic to discuss every week of that month of something similar.

What about a welcome pack/newsletter for new paying members. The newsletter could contain details of members who are already here, what they offer and if they give any discounts to other members.

Jacqui ':D'

[fastfences]

I also support the changes and believe it will add some 'exclusiveness' to the forum. That may not be an anticipated end result, but ultimately, it may be perceived by prospective members. Will it turn them away, though?

With regard to fee structure, I think £2 per month is reasonable, with a ceiling of £3. I may well be way off target here, but no amount has been floated. I note a suggestion of receiving a newsletter; one is already available, so that would be no extra effort.

I am a member of GardenLaw.co.uk http://www.gardenlaw.co.uk/phpBB2/index.php which has a 'private' section for 'support team' members. This does work quite well for those who want to discuss more 'sensitive' matters in camera.

Also, as a member of www.startups.co.uk I would hope changes to UKBF do not mirror the functionality of startups. It is a very 'non-efficient' and slow board.

In all, I think the changes can only benefit UKBF and members as a whole.

Cheers, Nigel

[Jayne]

I've had a think...

I don't think you should charge people to use the forum bit at all. Maybe charge for people to put banners and links in their sigs, Logo's in their avatar and a yearly cost to go in the members directory.

Many businesses cannot afford any sort of cost to use the whole forum in their first year, I don't mind paying for my logo and directory entry etc and that should make you a bit of cash if all the other more well off businesses do the same. It would be like supporting new starters in a way and everyone gets to use the whole forum and know-one feels left out because they are short of cash.

Jayne :D

[DavidHorn]

I don't think that paying a subscription is a problem. However, as others have said, I wouldn't have been convinced at the start. Perhaps you can offer 2 weeks of free use?

I think that the 'rate me' feature leaves itself open to abuse. There are obviously people here (as with every other forum) who provide value, and those that don't. If I was buying a service from any of the members here I would do my research first - check the posts they've made previously, try to find anyone else who has woked with them, etc., so that I would be able to form my own opinion. I think that's a reasonable step to take and more thorough than a 'rate me' feature that could really be abused as well as lead to 'why does everyone hate me?' type posts which are not productive.

Overall though - good changes.

[Ozzy]

Hi Folks,
Great feedback thank you.

The Rate Me feature was something that was mentione don here some time ago, but listening to your thoughts now they are valid points and I can see how it can be abused. I wasn't all for it, but a few said they would like to see something that shows which members are more credible in their input than others (trying to word that best I could ;)).

I was thinking something along the lines of £2.50 per month as a fee, less than a packet of cigs a month ;)

I was not thinking of allowing any unpaid members to read the members area (much like on the webmaster forums I also use), but can see the value in allowing so. Perhaps allowing anyone to see some of the members forums but leave one single forum as private for discussions that members may not want to allow to be freely visible? For example there has been times on here where I have wanted to ask for feedback or thoughts on a particular subject but didn't because it was quite sensitive. I didnt mind some of your guys seeing it and giving your thoughts, but wouldn't want it out in the completely free public domain. Having a private area where only subsbribed members have access to would overcome these sorts of situations. However I do like the idea mentioned of non-paid members being able to view but not contribute to some forums.

To also make it clear, the free area is not meant for just general banter - it is meant for business discussion aswell in much the same way it is at the moment. The difference is that it would only be forums like General, Internet, and a couple more.

[DotNetWebs]

I don't mind spending a few pounds a month on this site. I think it will still be very good value for money for the wealth of information I have obtained from it. I probably spend about £20 a month on magazines. Actually probably a lot more if you factor in the money spent in coffee shops reading them. :shock: Put in that context the cost will not be very significant.

I tend to agree about the "Rate Me" feature. That could lead to a few disputes. A lot of boards have a "Rate Thread" feature which could be useful but less controversial

Regards
Dotty

[Coding Monkey]

Also, the most known just get rated all the time, regardless of what they do.

[Coding Monkey]

Many businesses cannot afford any sort of cost to use the whole forum in their first year, I don't mind paying for my logo and directory entry etc and that should make you a bit of cash if all the other more well off businesses do the same. It would be like supporting new starters in a way and everyone gets to use the whole forum and know-one feels left out because they are short of cash.


I can't see anyone being stigmatised for not paying. I wouldn't think they're cheap, purely that they don't see the value of it and don't want to continue. I must be a member of at least 20 forums and I visit 2 regularly, so I wouldn't pay for the other 18.

Besides, say it was £2.50 a month, which is £30 a year. Can a new business really not afford that? My mobile phone bill is over £60 a month based on the line rental alone. It does the same thing: allows me to communicate with people.

[Rob Holmes]

I think to have access to so much help for the price of a sandwich every month is phenomenal!

Every new business has money, they just decide how to spend it.

I think access to UKBF at the price mentioned is an excellent deal and people could possibly save / make this back in under a day with the sort and quality of advice thats around.

Rob

[coxadmin]

I would be willing to pay a membership fee, particularly if you could pay for a year at time perhaps for a small discount.

I am a member of another forum where the rate the member feature is available and it is hardly used but I do agree there is potential for abuse.

[Jayne]

£2.50 is OK, I thought it would be more than that

Jayne :D

[ewan]

I haven't quite decided on this one yet. Just to clarify though, will there still be adverts on the site?

[bitsnstuff]

I think it is a good idea, as the forum has grown and is growing so quickly, it would be great to establish these guidelines.

I am all for the nominal fee as it is a fantastic resource which I actively promote whenever anyone will listen!!

I am not in favour of the rating system, as as pointed out, we all have very different specialist subjects, or not as the case may be, and I would envisage it being used simply as a popularity meter or for abuse.

I think it would be good to give potential paying members a chance to see what they could join in with, if they parted with some cash. On another forum I visit, you can see the title and if you click it a box appears with the first few sentences so you can get the gist of the discussion, but you can't open the thread or join in without being a member. This feature would be very useful here, so that we could quickly identify which threads to open and spend time reading.

I have found that if I post on other forums, the search engines seem to pick up my posts and I quite often find them in listings or being picked up on Google Alert, but I have never found any from this forum, which is the main one I visit, so that query string comment, may be worth thinking about.

Just my thoughts.

Kate :lol:

[creative-keyrings]

I feel this is slightly mis judgin the point of the ukbf, it was meant to be a community where everyone could post and help each other out. I know its a succseful one and ozzy wants to make some cash from it but there are other ways.

Such as the ukbf merchandise etc.

Why cant we just have a donation link? i know i would donate here and there and it would be better than a fixed rate.

Regards,

Callum

[DuaneJackson]

I run a very popular site (non-business related) that has a prominent donate link - a fair amount was contributed when it first went up, but nothing since. I don't think donations are a good way to get money from a site.

I guess one option is to be more aggresive with the marketting of the advertising positions.

And then there is this keyword advertising stuff where certain keywords in posts automatically become underlined and turn into an advert when you hover.

[creative-keyrings]

Either that or a compulsory donation to be made every year such as a tenner or something, i just feel a fixed fee is defeating the point of this wonderful community.

[DuaneJackson]

What's the differece between a compulsory donation and a membership fee?

[creative-keyrings]

Difference is the user can decide how much they want to donate. I just feel the community wont expand as users will not want to pay for advice. Its nice to help out each other here.

People will be arguingin about fees etc i just think the whole object of this forum will be deleted.

Its meant to be free advice and everyone can chip in and make life easier.

There must be a different way to make money from these forums??

[Top Hat]

This is my opinion on it

* All forums available, no private ones
* Non members cannot have sigs or links, this would have the added benefit of less spam.

Only if you find there are not enough sign ups should you have a members only area

Why, I think a members only area will reduce the number/quality of new sign ups, particularly if the quality of the posts in the free area becomes poor (and if the free area is good, why bother signing up?)

[MinuWeb]

I think a members area is a good idea.

£2.50 per month is ok, (would rather pay £20 - 25 per year though)

[clairemackaness]

ok.....I am more than happy to pay £2.50 or even £3.50 per month to join in this site as on average since joining I have sold at least one painting per moth, so it could be justified. Like Jayne, if it was pricey I would cry as I would have to leave.

I think that forums should be open to all to view but only members to post. I would not rish even £2.50 if i couldn't see what a forum was like before joining. Allowing free membership but not allowing sigs etc, will not stop spammers, unless you prevent URL posting as well.

I like the idea of having one thread that is locked to everyone but members as Ozzy says sometimes you just want to talk to those in the know.

What I wouldn't want to see is any major change to the way the forum works as from a non techy point of view I have got very used to posting and PMing etc and like the simplicity that remains on this site.

[Admiral Collections]

In relation to a monthly fee, I think this is a great idea and would seperate the wheat from the chaff.

I think it's pretty cheap to moan about it, when members receive so much enjoyment from this forum, why not pay for it? For 3.50 you can't get a packet of cigarettes.

Nic :wink:

[creospace]

Go for it but annual fee please not monthly.

Like the idea of the specialised areas

Gary

[cjd]

I think you would be committing commercial suicide if you attempted to charge for membership.

I can tell you immediately what will happen.

1. The few dozen regular members and contributors who have made friends here and become 'addicted' (for want of a better word :-)) will pay the fees.

2. irregular visitors will not pay and drift to other sites where they can contribute for free.

3. A very tiny % of new visitors will join (a fraction of 1%). This is because the difference between FREE and any charge at all is almost infinite (remember Freeserve). As several people have pointed out, a new visitor is highly unlikely to pay.

4. You will provide an opening for your competitors who will mop up the new customers you frighten off.

5. You will generate hardly any cash and as your click throughs from declining membership reduce, you will loose ad revenue

There are hardly any sites on the internet able to sustain a subscription model for content, let alone a forum - it's a pig of a thing to crack.

You would be better served looking for business sponsors and advertisers and concentrating on getting a huge number of 'qualified' eyeballs in here to attract them.

[DuaneJackson]

Interesting comments from CJD there - I find it hard to find a valid argument against them to be honest.

I've changed my mind so many times on this one though. I guess I'm just flakey : )

[clairemackaness]

I dont really know what to think, but you've had my two penneth. I guess CJD is right about regulars being addicted and if you look at all those who have posted yes to paying, most of them are regulars and if nobody else joined there is only so much we can all offer each other after time.

I disagree with Crecspaces pay annual statement though as I may want to cancel my subscription. It should be an option i.e. £3.50 per month or £35.00 per year. That way there is a selling point too....Pay annually and get 2 months membership free

[multilingual]

Hmmm....tricky one..

I would generally accept that most of the proposed changes are fair and acceptable. I do like the Rate Me section, so long as this can be done in a way that is not open to abuse, which is easier said than done.

The chance to cut down on the Time Out postings and concentrate more on business threads would be a definite plus point, and one that I would gladly pay for. If the forum continues its drift out towards being a chat room, then the business credibility will be lost for good. Fun though many of the postings are, they are not relevant to a business forum in my opinion. (Dont all shoot me down at once!) 8)

The proposed changes bring a concern that we may lose many members who are just ocassional posters, or that those who have not yet joined may be put off. A trial membership may be one possible solution, but I am not convinced that it would be effective.

Or perhaps you could separate the forum in two, and have a members and non-members area. Members could post and read both forums, but non-members would only have access to their own section. (I would not want to click on View postings since last visit, and have to trawl through non-member time out postings though.)

One idea would be to keep the forum exactly how it is, but introduce a UKBF Gold forum for paid members. This is not just a forum, but more of a club for people who want to do business together. Build a weekly or monthly newsletter inviting different Gold members to contribute to it, hold regular networking events for members only, with guest speekers coming from the members list, etc. Try to build up a Gold Database, where members can advertise their services to other members at a special UKBF rate. Gold members could have their own home page (rather than just a brief outline of what they do) etc.

I would pay to be a member of that Club.

Just a thought off the top of my head. Feel free to chop it to bits if you can see the drawbacks. :)

JB

[cjd]

One more thing to contemplate.

There have been site owners who have attempted to charge ('monetise') their community in the past, particularly before the dot com bubble burst.

Quite often the core members, realising that THEY are the content that they are now being asked to pay for, just got up and all moved to another free one.

Just a thought :twisted:

On a more positive note, if there's a way of adding really valuable stuff in here somewhere - and I mean stuff with obvious member benefits not just the ability to post to each other - then you have a chance of being able to sell it. Even so, it's a tough business model.

Try this. How many forums can we name that charge? Then let's look at why they can.

[DuaneJackson]

On a more positive note, if there's a way of adding really valuable stuff in here somewhere - and I mean stuff with obvious member benefits not just the ability to post to each other - then you have a chance of being able to sell it. Even so, it's a tough business model.


Any suggestion on what that stuff could be?

Anyone? Lets brainstorm and see what we come up with.

The obvious is a Resource Centre type thing, but personally I think that ths info is freely available elsewhere.

How about REAL discounts on products services from other members that are only available to other paid up members?I know that I personally have used 4 or 5 suppliers from this forum - some with a discount some without. If A further discount of real value was avaiable this could be worth the subs on its own.

[Urban Space]

I wouldn't pay. I'd go straight off to another forum where it's free to contribute.

Liam

[Coding Monkey]

How about REAL discounts on products services from other members that are only available to other paid up members?I know that I personally have used 4 or 5 suppliers from this forum - some with a discount some without. If A further discount of real value was avaiable this could be worth the subs on its own.

I don't like the concept of undervaluing ourselves to be members.

[coxadmin]

If the forum continues its drift out towards being a chat room, then the business credibility will be lost for good.

What about adding a chat room to the forum?

[Juvanescence]

I have browsed this forum everyday for over two years, and have contributed a little in this time.

I can't see how charging for this forum will improve the value for its members.

You may make money in the short while but gradually the member base will dwindle.. I have no doubt about that.

[Urban Space]

That's for certain. People won't want to pay for something that doesn't really benefit them, to an extent. Most of the stuff on here ends up in debates that drag on forever.

Liam

[cjd]

Have a look at the member's benefit page of the Federation of Small Businesses (FSB). There is real value; but I doubt it can be duplicated here.

http://www.fsb.org.uk/benefits/

btw; their forums are utter crap - if you want to know what a bad business forum looks like, go take a look:

http://www.fsb.org.uk/forums/default.asp

[bwglaw]

If you are offering a membership service then you may effectively exclude those under 16, who may not have access to a credit/debit card.

With no disrespect to Ozzy, I am assuming he is generating new business from this forum just like many of us. It is us that create the content and quality advice.

Charging a fee, no matter how much, is going to put people off, not because of the amount but because of the 'hassle' to make the transaction.

Charging a fee will also change the ethos of UKBF and possibly become like Ecademy, where there is more 'hard selling'

I am all for a Gold Member section where you can pay X amount a year with benefits to include a button advert, etc. Must have say 500 posts etc - it may give others the incentive to participate more.

I would seriously consider 'sponsoring' a forum and perhaps allocate a moderator to each forum. We 'sponsor' a few forums on disability discrimination/employment and give legal advice etc and we have moderator control on one of them - lessens the burden

[vdeep.com]

Im with cjd on this one charging would be commercial suicide, and I defiantly agree with new members being fare from encourage to join, I mean the welcome I got was most defiantly less than warm even if my first post was not as expected.

I would say that most content driven sites today generate revenue by allowing users to pay for additional services and extras. There are tons of ways that you can generate revenue without charging for membership.

The content is what keeps this site alive, if you start charging there are a 101 other forums out there and they will just become the UKBF.

I have visited a number of business sites and this one seems by fare is one of or is the most popular, you start charging and that’ll soon change.

[openmind]

I think you would be committing commercial suicide if you attempted to charge for membership.

I can tell you immediately what will happen.

1. The few dozen regular members and contributors who have made friends here and become 'addicted' (for want of a better word :-)) will pay the fees.

2. irregular visitors will not pay and drift to other sites where they can contribute for free.

3. A very tiny % of new visitors will join (a fraction of 1%). This is because the difference between FREE and any charge at all is almost infinite (remember Freeserve). As several people have pointed out, a new visitor is highly unlikely to pay.

4. You will provide an opening for your competitors who will mop up the new customers you frighten off.

5. You will generate hardly any cash and as your click throughs from declining membership reduce, you will loose ad revenue

There are hardly any sites on the internet able to sustain a subscription model for content, let alone a forum - it's a pig of a thing to crack.

You would be better served looking for business sponsors and advertisers and concentrating on getting a huge number of 'qualified' eyeballs in here to attract them.
I was just about to write a long drawn out post but cjd saved my fingers :lol:

Ozzy, don't do it. CJD has hit the nail on the head with the take up and you will lose membership signups as well as existing members.

You mentioned that the take up on advertising has been slow, you kindly sent over the rate card for advertising and for the price you were looking to charge I could have advertised on webhostingtalk.com which has literally millions of page views per month for a tenth of the cost :(

I'm not being tight, I'm being practical. Why pay here when there are many other business forums that don't charge?

Rethink your advertising strategy and gain the extra revenue from there..

[Crossguard]

One thing I'd like is something to encourage people to check on whether their question has already been answered rather than people coming on and asking the same questions all the time

A 'rate thread' feature also sounds interesting, if it would encourage new members to browse around useful/interest existing content

And I think a free trial membership or say one free forum for e.g. introductions might be an idea - I'd want to encourage start-ups to come here.

Or how about getting points for the number of posts you make which gives you some kind of bonus or discount?

You've also encouraged us, Ozzy, to link to the forums (our new website will contain a useful links page including one to this site), what do we get in return if we are helping your bottom line?

Generally, though, I've got no problem with paying something on a par with other business club memberships - £2.50 per month would be fine.

[Crossguard]

Hmmmm ....... I must say cjd has given me pause for thought too.

[Ozzy]

All very interesting and valid points, which at the end of the day is why I asked on here rather than just "do it" :)

I don't have a answer to a "what next" question, but some thoughts for you all.

Average costs for this forum are;
Software maintenance/updates : £150 per month
Online advertising (PPC/Banners) : £1,000 per month
Offline advertising (magazines/flyers) : £300 per month
Hosting : £50 approx per month
Basically these forums cost me around £1,500 per month to keep them running and to keep the turnover of new members coming.

That is just to keep the forum running as it is now, and does not include the costs for implementing any changes and updates that the members ask for...such as the members business directory for example.

My "real" businesses actually earns practically zero revenue from these forums, because all my customers are already registered companies and then come to these forums after they have been formed. I pick up about 1 customer a month from these forums that earns me about £15 per month profit. You may notice the shortfall there ;)

Why do I keep doing this when it is costing me so much money...because I think its a brilliant resource and has some great untapped potential still to be released. What that is, I don't know just yet.
What I do know is that these forums are not commercially viable to keep open unless the costs are covered.

Advertising is the most obvious route which would bring in the ultimate revenue. I also believe that leaving the free part of the forums as there are (almost) but removing some of the features that are used by spammers will add value to the forums by removing the attraction by those hit-and-run spam posters without taking anything away from the free area (for those wanting to seek advice).
I think some of you may have misunderstood my intention for the paid area - it is not to shut down and alienate the free area as that can remain pretty much as is, but it is to add a more "elite" club area where those can also network outside the free public area, have increased features (like sigs, pm, directory listing).
I am using webmasterworld.com as an example on this basis, the free area is very lively and a valuable resource of information. For paid members you get the usual extra title and functionality, plus access to one extra private forum where "insider" search engine marketing information and reports are made available which gives extra value to those in that industry and are paid members of that forum.

Still not saying its right, but I want to discuss this with you guys and hopefully at the end of this thread we have a plan for a forum that is both financially viable and also the perfect place and resource for you all to network and get business support online.

[Juvanescence]

I think you should advertise this thread in the rest of the forum.

There have been 27 votes cast so far. With 16 for your "elite club" idea.

The numbers just don't add up. You are going to have a very exclusive club if these numbers are anything to go by.

:)

[Ozzy]

Like Ecademy's "Blackstar" ? ;) It would be reasonable to work on averages here, and safe to say the "Fors" is not a landslide so needs more consideration.

[Crossguard]

Sounds ok to me, Ozzy.

[creacom]

Hi Ozzy

I see where you are coming from with this and think that for the small fee tht you would be asking for we would all benefit from a better forum.

Of course its never easy to get people to pay to join but if you offer them the chance to pay monthly then it will appeal more to people who are unsure.

Jacqui':D'

[Jayne]

I want to pay yearly, I don't want to take the chance of forgetting to pay :lol:

I've a very bad memory :D

Jayne

[cjd]

I see the dilemma but I think your business model is broken.

The forums are not costing you £1500 per month to run, they are costing you £200 per month.

On top of that you have optionally chosen to spend another £1300 on advertising. Most forums grow organically by word of mouth - that's the only way they can afford to.

You are essentially running at a loss in order to gain more members but the revenue generated per member approximates to zero and I don't believe that you are big enough yet to charge membership.

Personally I think you should stop advertising and spend any spare cash introducing new functionality to the site whilst using your members to promote your site through referral - that's how I got here.

Your example of webmaster.com is interesting but it looks enormous and does not carry adverts. Have you any idea how many members it has, it appears to have 6 staff!

ps - how effective is your advertising? How many new people does it generate and are they here 3 months later?

[bwglaw]

Average costs for this forum are;
Software maintenance/updates : £150 per month
Online advertising (PPC/Banners) : £1,000 per month
Offline advertising (magazines/flyers) : £300 per month
Hosting : £50 approx per month
Basically these forums cost me around £1,500 per month to keep them running and to keep the turnover of new members coming.

That is just to keep the forum running as it is now, and does not include the costs for implementing any changes and updates that the members ask for...such as the members business directory for example.


Forgive my ignorance, but I find the costs rather high for a forum. PHPBB is free I guess, and does the upgrading actually cost? We have not see much updating on here.

£1000 to advertise may be rather high but then again I don't know the levels of traffic the forum is getting. Or is this the expense you generate for advertising on other sites? If so, what is the income to meet the costs?

Hosting at £50/month - havent checked who you are hosting with but would it not be better to host with Matrixx or another member to keep costs down? Not sure if it reasonable because this depends on your bandwidths

I am all for the idea similar to 'Ecademy Blackstar' - I suggest getting a handful of the regulars to become members and give it a trial. I would be happy to pay a fee for this.

[Crossguard]

Personally, I wouldn't use Ecademy as a model - I think these forums are much better.

[MinuWeb]

I don't think you can count the advertising into the cost of running the forum (after all, that is totally up to you, could be 1k could be 10k), if you are spending 1k per month, then i would sugest looking elsewhere because the number of new signups per month does not justify that, especially when you consider that only 103 members have made more than 100 posts......

It is the members that make the forums worthwhile visiting, no matter how good you think they are if the top 50 posters stopped posting tomorrow the forums would be empty.

Have a membership, make it £2 - 3 per month, but make it "additional value" that the members get ("Gold member" username, able to use signature, add a members only forum for chit chat) but do not stop non paying members from reading the forums that are currently available.

[bwglaw]

Agree with Philip but there should be 'privileges' for long-standing members because they have to be rewarded one way or another for visiting the forum and keeping it alive, which is why I suggested a button advert.

In circumstances like this, one has to give in order to take.

This can easily be put on trial...

CJD makes some good points and I found the figures to be out of proportion for a forum. If you run Google Adwords, I suggest this is stopped - too expensive for a FREE forum!

Functionality is the key to a successful forum. I like the style used by youngentreprenuer.com and they even upload quicker than this forum, but I am patient!

http://www.accessifyforum.com is a good site also, uploads very quick, soft colour theme etc. I think UKBF should use vBulletin as the most advanced forum to date.

[ewan]

As handsongroup has pointed out, you can cut yearly costs dramatically by getting cutting back on advertising and finding a better host.

You should really try to encourage the people on the forum to refer their business friends to the forum, you certainly needn't spend onwards of a grand on advertising a month!

Try streamlinenet (http://www.streamlinenet.co.uk/) for hosting. Best deal around (main points why I use it are yearly rather than monthly fee - which is really low - and unlimited bandwidth).

[Ozzy]

Hi Guys,
The hosting was an "approx" value based on costs that would be charged by a reasonable host for the traffic and resources it uses, but it piggy backs on the resources used by Quick.

The advertising I do is;
Pay-per-click on Google and Overture.
Postcard flyers handed out at networking events around my area and exhibitions.
Banner adverts on other websites.
Mailshot and newsletter adverts with organisations such as smallbusiness.co.uk and bytestart.co.uk

I agree that yes I could allow the forums to grow organically, but that is what was done before and the forums did not grow. Remember these forums are 3 years old, and for the first 2 years they were left to "grow organically" and nothing happened. Those who have been around for a while may remember what they were like back then. Only a handful of members and they were very quiet.
Since I took the forums over I invested in a redesign and high profile advertising, and the forums are now nothing like what they were before. Expecting forums to grow organically does not work, and these forums are evidence to that. 2 Years no advertising and no growth, the last year advertised and now they are the busiest forums that I know of.

Granted not every sign up sticks around, but that is to be expected.

Another thought...
If I did not spend the money on advertising and these forums were not anywhere near as busy as they are now, would half you guys still be here using them?


The development costs...
phpBB release security updates almost monthly, I have a freelance developer who applies these security patches as and when they are released. Also, when things like peoples logins stop working again I need him to come in and fix the problem.

[DuaneJackson]

re the phpBB dev costs. Ozzy is spot on - with phpBB you HAVE to stay on top of the updates of you get hax0r3d.

Re the advertising costs - wow! That's a lot. If you make the forums crawlable (by eliminating querystrings) then you'll get a lot of natural traffic that doesn't cost a dime (or a penny)

[Coding Monkey]

I actually found you via a Google search. I initially typed in "business forums" and went to Teneric, and then "uk business forums" and you're #1, although you also advertise that term on AdWords. That's a fair amount of money saved each month. I also feel that your phpBB security updates could be caried out by someone, like myself (yes, that was a kind offer) to save the requirement of the fee each month.

[ewan]

I first found these forums a couple of months ago searching something along the lines of "business forum". I'm sure you'll still get a small flow of new members from good search engine positioning.

[cjd]

Hands up - who found this forum through a paid for link?

(I was recommended from another forum - I think fsb, as it's so godawful it was linked as a best practice model).

btw - don't get depressed about this Ozzy, you've got a damn fine site here.... sites reach a critical mass - it can take years but all of a sudden when you've built up a head of steam and a few thousand members they grow exponentially.....it's the 'takes years' bit that no-one ever understands.

[Jayne]

I found it by accident on google, I was looking for site that sold businesses :lol:

This was my first ever forum, didn't even know there were anything like this :D

Jayne

[Alpha]

I suppose its time to put my perspective on this thread after reading everyone elses.

The simple problem is that it costs money to maintain these forums, even if you take out amounts for some online and offline marketing.

Really these costs need to be covered somehow.

So option one is that Ozzy decides to cut his losses and stop the forums or option two is that he starts charging and (in several peoples scenarios) people refuse to pay and leave the forums.

Seems to me that in either scenario these forums close down. (And before anyone jumps on that comment I know it is a simplistic model that I have outlined)

Many people come on here for the social aspect as much as anything else but many people have obtained the benefits of either

Easily getting information which they would have to have paid for either directly or in time searching for it

or benefited from people who have provided work done for them for little or no cost

or gained benefits by getting business directly through the forums.

In whatever way it is looked at the benefits most gain above,must surely outweigh what is being proposed i.e a fairly nominal cost which I believe would really equate to advertising the members services at still a nominal cost as advertising on paid directories is often between £50 and £250 per year.

I'll now stand back and wait for the rush

:D

[Jayne]

I'm happy as long as I can pay once a year...how many times do I have to say it :roll:

Money well spent I say. If it wasn't for this forum, I would not be up to my second web business, if you remember I didn't know what a host was when I joined. I even know a little bit of techy stuff now (saying that loosely) :lol:

So I think the people running it, shouldn't be out of pocket.

Jayne :D

[bwglaw]

Alpha makes a fair point BUT this forum will be compared with other forums if a charging structure is implemented. The regulars have no doubts about its value and would support the cause hence my suggestion for a 'privilege' package for those who attain a certain level and gain certain benefits. Its the newcomers that will be deterred if a blanket charge is made.

You could create a section on the site i.e. sidebar, listing all the 'platinum' members who have paid, say £100/year and they have a button (same size as those to the left) placed on the right or somewhere prominent.

I would also strongly recommend reducing the benefits that FREE members get now, namely:

1. Signature
2. Avatar
3. PM facility
4. Email

And only give FREE members the facility to post/reply. You could offer a tier system where a user pays £10/year to have the 4 privileges above.

I am pretty much certain this will work because you will have Free members, £10/year members and 'Platinum' members, with the latter two providing an income stream. The above will also prevent spamming members.

You could even add a 'blog' section which allows only the 'platinum' members to create a blog and other paid-up members can reply. Free members cannot. This will alone generate more traffic. If I was platinum I would be happy to write a good article relating to legal issues etc and create a debate.

Failing the above, the only option left would be to put the forum under ownership/management of a consortium, which includes key people with key skills to manage the forum and the cost is then evened out.

[creospace]

I found it through a search on google and it didnt take long to find!

[DotNetWebs]

I think Jonathon makes some good points. This forum is different from almost any other I know in that a large majority of members ultimately want to ‘sell’ something to other members. Others seek opinions on their websites etc. Either way they want to make themselves ‘known’ to other forum members.

You could make this forum free for all but do not give ‘free’ users the ability to PM or more importantly post their URL or E-Mail address in the signature OR in the body of the text.

You could also run a high quality parallel members directory paid for by subscription. Directory members would also get the right to display avatars and signatures in the forum.

Why not ‘sponsor’ each section of the forum and directory with a single advertisement sold by an ebay type auction. Can you imagine how many bids you would get for the ‘web design’ section?

IMHO if you take this approach I think you would get a surprisingly high number of ‘conversions’, the site would continue to grow and you would receive a steady revenue stream.

[DotNetWebs]

Just to add to what I said above:

Friends Reunited have a similar model, you can look but you can’t get in touch with anybody until you pay.

What I am suggesting is basically the opposite. You can look but nobody can get in touch with you until you pay.

If you can prevent ‘free’ members from posting URL’s in the body of the message as well as the signature you will also reduce the problem of people who register, make one ‘spammy’ post and disappear.

I also agree that removing the query strings will make a huge difference to the amount of search engine referrals you get.

[Ozzy]

Hi Guys,
This is great as your feedback is helping me get a steer on what you guys would like to see, would be happy to see, and means I can look at implementing a solution that makes these forums sustainable.

(yes Jayne and all, annual payments with a discount seems perfectly fine with me).

Jonathan's post has pulled some of my original thoughts and others together into what I think is a good idea. Any objections?

[Jayne]

No objections as long as you leave the buttons alone, it took ages for me to learn where all the buttons are, don't want to start again :D

And I like the blue colour too, it's easy on the eyes. Too many bright colours or green hurts my eyes, this is why I like this forum, it doesn't give me headache :D

Jayne

[Rob Holmes]

I think Jayne should pay more than everybody else as she posts the most ;) :D

Apart from that it sounds good

Rob

[DuaneJackson]

Yep, I'd have no objections to the stuff Jon outlined.

I think the important thing is to keep this as a very useful free resource - and at the same time making it even more useful/beneficial as a paid for resource.

Add, don't subtract (apart from PM functionality. etc)

[Jayne]

And who would keep an eye on things when you lot are busy Rob :lol:

Do you really want me to stop posting, I can if you want me to.

Jayne :D

[Rob Holmes]

Do you really want me to stop posting, I can if you want me to.

Jayne :D

Really?

only joking - I would miss you too much :)

Rob

[DuaneJackson]

oi, take your banter to Time Out you cretins :-p

[Jayne]

Bog off Duane :lol: :lol: :lol:

See this is another great thing about this site you can pay for, abusing Duane :lol:

Jayne

[Rob Holmes]

<ok back on topic before this thread goes out the window>

sorry my fault.

I think it would be great for everyone to be able to read and post in most places.

The additional options of PM, email, Avatars and signatures would be good to charge for as I guess they are ways of advertising and communicating.

Rob

[clairemackaness]

I like Handsons ideas, but I couldn't afford £100 in one hit. I'd rather pay monthly.

I found this site on Google too.

[Urban Space]

I was looking for chatrooms :?! Then I found this place and I've kind of stuck lol!

I guess I'll just have to stick with a free account :(! How gay's that?! :lol:!

Liam

[bwglaw]

(c) Hands On Group UK Ltd 2006 - Platinum Membership Scheme!

Ozzy, put me down for £100/year as the first Platinum member - others will follow! Just email me when you are ready for the pacing of adverts as we are getting our corporate site designed as I type.

Another idea, charge £0.10 per posting over 100 posts per day - Jayne would soon be skint!

A better idea, put a credit card facility in the legal forum for members to fill in their credit card details, post the problem, I will then post the solution! It will go to my bank of course ;)

Sorry for the banter Duane, it is what makes this forum so good ;)

Very pleased my posting has concluded the good ideas - happy to contribute in any way I can. Just email/Pm if you need further support.

[Jayne]

Well I think, the more you post, the less you pay :lol:

I too think £100 is a little steep for us small fry business people, I think there should be a pay or no pay or it will start to look like a class system. I like the £2.50 per month like Ozzy said.

Jayne :D

[ewan]

£100/yr would be a very exclusive bunch indeed! What would a lower cost package loose out on if you had say a £35/yr fee?

[bwglaw]

OK...

Platinum £75 ... (PM, avatar, email, signature, banner ad, hyperlinks/emails enabled) (could be increased to £100-150 to justify the banner ad?)
Gold £50... (PM, avatar, email, signature, button ad, hyperlinks/emails enabled)
Silver £25... (PM, avatar, email, signature, hyperlinks/emails enabled)
Free member £0 (no PM, avatar, email - only post/reply, hyperlinks/emails disabled)

Each would have to have unique benefits as suggested above. I only buy platinum like my wedding ring! ;)

£2.50/month - Typical Yorkshire lass, tight! ;) Anyway, £25/year works out best for you. Start saving. I would be happy to offer credit facilities! at 35% APR ;)

Seriously, it would be better to pay per year to reduce the amount of transactions to balance. This site could be integrated with WorldPay, which has a FuturePay subscription service which I have used - it debits the amount on each anniversary. Still could do monthly but for £2.50 plus transaction fee, extra admin - not good idea.

[Jayne]

I'm not just thinking about myself, i'm thinking of all members pockets, I don't want to loose any mates because they bugger of somewhere else :D

I like 18 carat gold best, with diamonds :D

Jayne

[Urban Space]

I'd most certainly 'bugger off!' You'd lose the bestest mate you've ever had Jayne! :lol:!

Liam

[Jayne]

Are you taking lessons off Tom and Nigel :lol:

Very sweet.

You can still use the forum for free, you'll have to have my email if you want me, instead of the PM.

Jayne :D

[Urban Space]

:lol:!

But either way these forums are slowly going to die out. If you charge, people who don't want to pay will just 'bugger off,' as Jayne puts it! Then, those who've for a 'Platinum Membership' will get bored and leave when no 'fresh meat' sign up.

After that, all these lovely little adverts which have gathered up lately will disappear as there's no-one on here to look at them.

If you leave these forums free, Rob's out of pocket; start charging and they'll just die. Lose-Lose situation here...

Liam

[creacom]

I think maybe the rates that are being suggested are too high. Its gone from being less than a packet of fags a month to 2 packets of fags a month.

I value this forum and at the same time completely agree that Ozzy needs to be covering all his costs from now on.

The original idea of say £40 a year is probably better for a lot of people and is not a lot to pay every month either.

Just my 2p for the day !!

Jacqui

[Jayne]

I agree with most of that Liam, I don't mind paying a bit, but not more than it cost for hosting my site for a year. That would be too much, even for platinum status thing. I enjoy the forum, but not £100 enjoy it :lol:

Jayne

[Hayles]

I agree with Handson's ideas :D

I found the forum via a search on Google.

And I've had a few days of little contact with the forum due to being in the middle of nowhere, and I have missed being able to ask questions and offer feedback, so yep, I would definitely pay to stay.

Hayles

[cjd]

Well I think it's a mistake.

I don't think this site is big enough keep a paying membership and I suspect that the payment system will cost more to implement and sustain than the revenue derived from it.

But I am more than happy to watch the experiment (from the position of a non-paying hoy poloy in the public gallery of course ;-))

[multilingual]

The site will not die if Richard introduces a Gold Membership scheme because the core element of the site will remain untouched. Non-paying members will still be able to read and post on threads, so the all-essential virtual community would be maintained.

The benefits of becoming a Gold Member should outweigh the costs, and as I mentioned earlier, the chance to network in the real world with other members would create a more professional feel to the business sector.

Therefore, the advantages, in my opinion, need to be outside of the forum, not just having the ability to post PMs and have an avatar. My reasoning for this is simple:

By offering extra benefits Ozzy can say "Pay up and you will GAIN"

By resticting the facilities on the site he will be saying "Pay up or you will LOSE"

This is a very different philosophy from a marketing viewpoint and people will be put off by thinking that they now have to pay for something that they were previously getting for free.

A member has nothing to gain by doing this and for that reason I feel that there are flaws in the current proposals. You need to give people a postive motive rather than a negative.

JB

[Jayne]

Big claps for JB, that's the best way I think too :lol:

But not the £100 payment though :D

Jayne

[Urban Space]

But looking at the percentages at the top (which by the way don't add up), this could swing either way still.

Liam

[cjd]

But looking at the percentages at the top (which by the way don't add up), this could swing either way still.

Liam
That's just the % who are interested in the argument. It seems likely to me that the rest probably don't care and are highly unlikly to shell out.

As far as I can see without having access to real stats, there have been 3000 members registered, about 2000 them have made less than 5 posts and less than 300 have ever made more than 30 posts. (I don't know how many of the total are dead accounts, I would estimate 60-70%; but I'll put that to one side for a moment.)

Assuming that there is therefore an actice and fully participating membership of about 20% of those 300 we have an exsiting target market of about 60. Also assuming that a 50:50 split pay/no pay - as our survey shows is accurate (before we have final details and pricing of course) - that gives a paying membership of 30. Which isn't worth the bother of charging for in my opinion.

I haven't been here long but I have a feeling of this place as being comfortably small with roughly that number of active participants - am I close?

[multilingual]

May be a few more than that, but I would hazard a guess that active members total less than 100.

Even if all those members paid £200 / annum then it would only cover the costs of the forum upkeep based on figures provided.

This is one of the reasons why I feel that the forum should be a front door for an extra value added service outside this virtual world. I would work this forum as a loss-leader to promote interest in a Gold Membership Club that provides real benefits that people are ready and willing to shell out money for.

I think this is more on the lines of what Richard was envisaging when he took over the site: ie some sort of add-on product to sell on the strength of a solid and reputable forum.

Currently, the only value to this site is the people who are on it, so we need to move the serious players up to a new level, rather than tie down the new or casual reader as this may stifle the future growth.

There needs to be a positive spin on paying out money.

If 100 of us all paid out £1000 to be part of a professional body that was promoted as a business resource centre with trade stands all over the country and national TV coverage, then the benefits and advantages would be self perpetuating. I am sure that a combined advertising pot could generate enough income for all of us to feel that the benefit would outwigh the initial outlay.

We can pay out more than that for a Yellow Pages ad! :shock:

I am not saying it would work though :wink: , just kicking the ball around and seeing where it lands.

JB

[Ozzy]

Just to clarify Liam, are you saying you would leave because you would lose the PM and signature facility (which are the only items you are using that would become chargable) ? Remembering that you would still be able to use the forums in the general manner as you currently do.

[bwglaw]

I agree with JB.

Some of you have misunderstood the concept behind the tier system. In fact, once implemented you will probably not notice significant change because as JB or someone said that the core remains unchanged, other than PM/email/Signature/Avatar being removed thus only allowed to post/reply, which will be free.

Those who wish to gain greater exposure on this forum have the choice whether to pay for the extra privileges. I can see where Jayne is coming from but she doesnt have to spend £100/year, but can either remain a free member or upgrade to the next tier i.e. £25.

As a larger business I would be happy to pay Platinum because I can afford that and I would enjoy greater exposure. Wherever you go there will always be an elite few who are Platinum members and are rewarded accordingly through privileges.

To enjoy what you are enjoying now (possibly more i.e. Blog), in my proposal, would only cost £25/year. This works out at £2.08/month. If you were prepared to pay £2.50 a month it works out at £30/year!

I presume any payments will go through Quick Formations Ltd. I believe that 'subscriptions' are VAT exempt?... so will not have any impact on the fee. Alternatively, set it up as a not-for-profit.

[JustOneUK]

wow, what an interesting thread, I feel like I have been on holiday.
I am afraid I am 100% behind cjd in his views on this subject.

I believe the internet should be free, and enough money can me made from advertising, which is exactly why I do what I do.

The posters here, no matter what they post, are the ones creating your content, theoretically you should pay them :shock:. If you start to charge you may have a few who stay and talk amongst themselves for a while, but it would be pretty boring.

Also members areas need to be hidden from search engine spiders if you are going to keep these 'private conversations' actually private, goodbye google rankings.

Where is your adsense? I don't see you making any adsense revenue here, you pay adwords yet don't make anything back? That's weird, some of these topics are to die for in the adsense click market.

There are 101 other things you can try before charging your members or 'taking away their priveledges' the losers will be your existing members.

If you look at the majority of posts they are sociable posts, perhaps some are brainstorming, others just testing the water. To charge for that is just financial suicide IMHO.

How come no-one who is here has an advert here? apart from matrixxxxxx ?
This is also something you need to address.

hope this helps, all just my 2cents of course

James

[uksbc]

hi all,

i have no problem in some of the suggestions which have been thrown around but i think with how many posts there have been in such a short space of time there is definately a lot to think about.
i wish i had seen this thread earlier in all honesty.

i think that finding ways for ozzy to make a bit of extra revenue from the forums is totally justified and if there is a fee of £30 or £40 quid per year then non of the regular users are going to complain. i am sure we have all earned more than that by simply being an active member in the first place.

the first main question has to be "are you going to discourage new sign ups" - as has been mentioned i think the only way to do this is increase privelages with a fee whilst keeping the forums free to use and post to

the second thing is a little self centered i have to admit. the idea early in thread from ozzy about building a help type site utilising the brand recognition UKBF has already got. this would put the site in direct competition with me.

since the launch of our help centre site in december the response has been a lot more overwhelming than i anticipated as it fills a gap that sites like startups and similar dont touch and although the help site has taken off it was never the intended aim. it sort of took on a life of its own and has grown organically which is an element i am quite proud of. and in all honesty has rapidly become my main business focus rather than some of the other services i offer and is being developed and added to daily now

now i have no objection to healthy competition and i dont intend this post to sound like a "boo-hoo" poor me type thing but i am a little worried that to compete with a site that already has 3 years brand recognition (hence why any mention of forums on the site link you to this one) will kill the direction our site is heading in.

i dont know whether my point would maybe constitute a new thread as i dont want to hi-jack the post with comments about how ozzys changes will affect me
but i would be interested to hear some other member comments about this particular point either through the forum or via pm

Del :D

[bwglaw]

If you start to charge you may have a few who stay and talk amongst themselves for a while, but it would be pretty boring.

Why? Paid-up and free members will be able to interact just as good as now via the post facility. No-one appears to be excluded on the proposals suggested.

Also members areas need to be hidden from search engine spiders if you are going to keep these 'private conversations' actually private, goodbye google rankings.

Why?, again no-one will be excluded and there would not be any private members areas, just a difference in functionality/privileges.

How come no-one who has an advert here? apart from matrixxxxxx ?

I am going to assume that Matrixx has one in return for his invaluable support in moderating. I will consider advertising but we are still working on our brands and our signatures already advertise many businesses on here.

i think the only way to do this is increase privelages with a fee whilst keeping the forums free to use and post to

Agree. This is what I suggested in my proposal, it is workable because other forums that are free don't get as much traffic and I do not think traffic/membership will dwindle because only the privileges will be according to the tier system. People will see the benefits of this forum once spammers are locked out and all the free forums will become spammed.

i have no objection to healthy competition

It will always be the case of competition in the commercial world. There is of course nothing to stop you putting forward a proposal (and be a Platinum member!) to share your resources with the forum if Ozzy decides to have a blog. You will enjoy returns too.

I think many people here need to see the true value of this forum compared with other forums that are just like business graveyards. Many of us have enjoyed networking, new business and advertising in some way, which you will not have enjoyed in other forums. I think £25/year for the silver membership is not asking for much if you want to PM/email/signature and avatar!

If you just want to chat then just be a free member. If you want to promote your business, cough up! I think Ozzy needs to bang the gavel and make his decision ;) - don't forget Ozzy, you have one Platinum member already and I want a good deal! ;)

[uksbc]

I think £25/year for the silver membership is not asking for much if you want to PM/email/signature and avatar!

If you just want to chat then just be a free member. If you want to promote your business, cough up!

a valid point - we are benefitting just by being here - when i think how many crappy lunches i have eaten at networking events that have not produced anywhere near the value of work, advice and friendships i have gained here and each event has cost over £25.00

a small price to pay me thinks :D

[Cornish Steve]

Wow. I travel to Miami for a day and miss all the action! This is a very interesting thread, and I'd certainly like to contribute my two penn'th.

1) I agree with CJD's arguments. If there was a charge to use the forums, the numbers would decline. Pretty soon, monthly fees would not cover the costs.

2) Revenue can be generated in other ways. For example, be more aggressive in promoting advertising banners (membership fees would reduce the value of banners; you could charge more if the forums are free and attract more visitors).

3) Add a formal member directory, listing members who offer services in various industries. We could pay £2.50/month for the listing, which would include company name, summary paragraph, website, and contact info. To maintain the value of the directory, remove signatures in the general forum.

4) Make the offers area more formal, and maybe link it to the directory. Since we get value from posting offers here, could we agree to pay you 5% for every sale made through this forum? It requires trust, but that's the oil on which business runs.

5) I like the idea of a member-only forum other than Offers. I would certainly like to sound out ideas without the whole world seeing. I don't see this as a chargeable benefit, though.

6) What about giving us a UKBF logo and link that we can each add to our website? This would provide you with some free advertising.

7) Formalise UKBF get-togethers. Invite guest speakers and charge something for the events.

You seem to be building a lot of momentum right now. To my mind, charging a fee would not only stop the train but send it into reverse. You have a captive audience; start offering us benefits that we can pay for.

I hope these thoughts are useful.

[Ozzy]

Again, these are all very valid and valuable thoughts which I value and appreciate.

I am currently geared towards Jonathan's idea still, and some people still seem to be misisng the point that the forums in general are still going to remain free and people will still be able to sign up for free and use them. They just will not be able to use the tools that spammers abuse (PM, URL and signature). When you look at some other free forums (even the FSB one) you cannot use a signature. Others restrict signatures to just 10 characters and the likes so you do not have enough room to post a link in your signature.

UKSBC ... as Jonathan mentions, is there not an opportunity for us to partner here?

To look at Jonathan's proposal in another light...

Social banter, discussion and testing the water of the forums, asking advice = free membership would give you all that. The free forums will effectively be what you see now, and will still be moderated to ensure they do not become devalued and filled with spam.

The silver would be an entry level business package lets say. You gain access to some additional resources, plus have facilities activated on your account to promote your business.

The larger companies who have more money can pay a little bit extra and get bigger adverts and a gold star so to speak :)

Just to let you all know how I am taking your comments on board, I am talking to a few different organisations to see if it is possible to secure addition benefits to membership outside of the forums (ie. Platinum members get X discount from company Y).

Yes Jonathan, I know I should get off the fence soon, but I want to make sure as many people as possible have given their feedback and views :). In general most seem to be agreeing with your proposal. You can never please everyone.

It is alyways possible that by implementing these changes we reduce spam and add more value to the forums, which in turn could actually increase numbers! Its important to define what numbers I mean... I am happy to have less quantity of signups, but higher quality of members.

*kick* .. there goes Steve's ball kicked back into the midst again :)

[creacom]

I go along with what Ozzy says. I would take out the platinum package for the benefits suggested above.

Glad we seem to be making some progress !!! ':D'

Jacqui

[Jayne]

HI,

If free will be the same, but no pm's, no web addresses posted etc. How are you going to ask for techy help on your site, if you cannot tell people what site it is?

You cannot tell them via PM, so the only way is to put your email address on the forum, so you can send them you web address that way. Then you would be spammed anyway.

Also, people put on there news letters and ads for others to help with, now would that be advertising?

I think you should leave the PM's free, new people often PM me to ask about things and for help and I don't really want my email on the forum. As I would pay i'd have a PM, but the new people wouldn't. I'd rather get the odd spam PM, than feel bad for not helping someone.

Jayne :D

[MinuWeb]

HI,

If free will be the same, but no pm's, no web addresses posted etc. How are you going to ask for techy help on your site, if you cannot tell people what site it is?.

A good reason to be a paid member then! :D If paying a few £'s for membership enables people to get free tecnical advice (as happens now) then it would be an added value that should encourage members to pay for a package.

it will always be possible to post URL's in such a way that an automated system won't block them as well, like "mysite dot com" or "mysite . com"

[Jayne]

Well what about, free Pm's for the under 16's then. I know they will not pay for it, but I often help them and don't want them left out:D

You know i'll pay to use the forum Tony :lol:

Jayne

[Ozzy]

Hi Jayne,
You will be able to post the url as www.address.com but the forum will not automatically convert it to a clickable link as it does at the moment.
Spammers use the url posting to build up inbound links to their website, removing that facility removes that benefit from them.

[uksbc]

You will be able to post the url as www.address.com but the forum will not automatically convert it to a clickable link as it does at the moment.
Spammers use the url posting to build up inbound links to their website, removing that facility removes that benefit from them.

i like that idea :D

[bwglaw]

PM's for the Under 16, not workable because how can you prove in this day and age when someone is 16? There could be a way to communicate with the moderators direct but it won't go to other members unless you have the entry-level membership.

[daveashton]

Ok

Here are our thoughts.


First of all we feel that need to agree what we are trying to achieve before working out how we charge (if at all) and who can do what.

So

Areas for clear improvement that we think will add value to the site

More categories that have a specialist as the moderator on areas that affect small businesses i.e.

HR
Banking
Grants
Investment (note it is separate from Grants) etc

Quality of answers

This is key to any forum with UKBF having the most variable for the ones we participate in.

We would like to see

A rating for the post and a rating for the reply’s so that people can see who gives consistently good answers and hence adding more value to the forum.

Yes this like every system can be abused but it is in all our interests to promote good answers rather than bad or badly thought out responses.

It would also be nice to see a list of services that are split as follows for each member

Primary 1 key service
Secondary Other related services

This again will help a person see if the answer is coming from a specialist or someone who is commenting on the post for other reasons.

[cjd]

I still think the idea is bonkers.......what you you are suggesting is removing standard bulletin board functionality that everybody has and uses and then charging to give it back!

Add more real value, then I'll think about paying for it ;-)

[daveashton]

Thats what needs to come first as per my last post. Value

Then we can look at what it is worth not before!

[Tin]

Hi Ozzy

I joined the forum specifically to provide advice to others who'd find it helpful and not so much to seek advice although I have (I think) on one occasion. My posts in the main have been quite detailed and timeconsuming to write (I struggle with the 'one liners' as I waffle too much) and together with the PM's and phone calls I've had with forum members I'm not sure I'd stick around if I had to pay.
The forum is excellent, has all the hallmarks of being a leader, plenty of friendly helpful souls but I'd want more from it if it went paid and I also concur with the views that membership would likely drop if subscriptions were brought in.
I can't help feeling that as a large chunk of the members here run their own website why a way can't be found for the forum to be more instrumental in helping to promote members sites?

On a more positive note, I'd be happy to provide plenty of 'free' seo advice if you wanted to go down the road of marketing the forum more on engines? Might bring you a few more "shillings" in. :-)

All the best with it, whatever!

Ray

[Jayne]

Hi Tin,

I already have a link on my site for UKBF and i'm still waiting for a banner pic to be sent by Ozzy, so I can put one of those on too :roll:

Yes still waiting Ozzy :lol:

Plus I tell all my customers about UKBF too when I email them, as all of my customers are business people and I think they'd find it useful on here :D

I'd like the UKBF to stay exactly the same and just pay extra for advertising (logos, banners, urls etc). No gold, Platinum etc, those people who want that can just pay for big ads on the forum. I like it here because there is less rules and it's more friendly. Sometimes it's fun to get spammers and if the mods are fed up of deleting them, give me and Nigel a delete button and we'll sort them out (if Nigel agrees of cause) :D

If it's not broke, don't fix it :D

Jayne x

[Tin]

Jayne... I couldn't agree more with you :-)

[Jayne]

And I agree with me too :lol:

Jayne

[fastfences]

Sometimes it's fun to get spammers and if the mods are fed up of deleting them, give me and Nigel a delete button and we'll sort them out (if Nigel agrees of cause) :D
Jayne x

I would prefer to offer them my 'informal initiation ritual.'
Cheers, Nigel

[bwglaw]

I can understand many people don't like 'change'. However this forum has gone beyond a 'forum' because one has to compare with other forums, which are currently graveyards.

Without going into depth here. There would be free benefits as outlined above. If you are not prepared to pay £25/year to enjoy the benefits and wealth of advice you have recieved to date then I wish you luck in finding the same advice for free on another forum and enjoy the same interaction. Like I said, this forum has gone a hugh step further and plans have to be put in place.

Word will get out that UKBF has a good reputation for free/low cost advice/information and will gain more attention and be the 'first' forum to enjoy membership. Ecademy in my opinion is not a forum, but a blog of some sort.

If it's not broke, don't fix it

I am afraid that phrase is a bad one in business, my opinion any way. A business of any kind must be willing to develop and the staff should support the changes. If not they move on.

Jayne, I am sure you have implemented changes (however small) to your business to improve the prosperity and effectiveness of your business. Here it is the same.

If it's not broke, don't fix it

I am afraid to say Ozzy has stated that this forum has become 'broken' and needs to be fixed. He has stated that he needs to recoup his losses and is looking at our feedback/input for a solution to fix the problem.

Forums is now not only seen as a method of interacting with the increase in popularity for forums/blogs because businesses are now realising and exploiting the need for forums/blogs to promote their business. When it reaches a stage of gaining increasing value/popularity and people are starting to enjoy the benefits it brings one has to start charging a nominal fee for enjoying the 'advertising privileges'

I must admit that in my opinion some 'businesses' on here do not really appear to be bona-fide businesses as such and are merely hobbies. The proposal above will sort the wheat from the chaff and those who view themselves as bona-fide businesses will go to the nominal expense of promoting their business.

Finally, perhaps free members can have a text-only signature as opposed to no signature at all.

[cjd]

I can understand many people don't like 'change'.

I think it's 'charge' not 'change' people are objecting to. :wink:


I am afraid to say Ozzy has stated that this forum has become 'broken' and needs to be fixed. He has stated that he needs to recoup his losses and is looking at our feedback/input for a solution to fix the problem.

Ozzy is making a case for charging for what he is currently offering for free; that will annoy a group of existing members and put off new members joining. He would be better served reducing his costs (as mentioned earlier) and working out smart ways of adding value.

Even if charging for trivial services somehow succeeds it will generate an immaterial revenue stream, confine this forum's growth and open the way for competitors.


I must admit that in my opinion some 'businesses' on here do not really appear to be bona-fide businesses as such and are merely hobbies. The proposal above will sort the wheat from the chaff and those who view themselves as bona-fide businesses will go to the nominal expense of promoting their business.

Charging will change the nature of this place from an egalitarian, open forum into two groups of people - the public and the inside clique - if that means I'm chaff, I'll take the name.

[crus]

Danger, Danger Will Robinson,

Be Careful, very careful.

the converion to a paid forum is very difficult to acheive,
to date I know of one success that I have been a part of DNFORUM.com.

My suggestion would be leave it alone, I sure there is nice revenue coming in from ads and google. How much indirect revenue does it generate for the Quick Group?

If you have to charge, charge users to have adverts removed and just add a few more banners.

Otherwise, your lloking at an exodus.

D

[Juvanescence]

More but cheaper advertising is the way to go.

Maybe if the advertising rates were freely available? The last time I checked they were pretty extortionate.

This is the only way (I feel) that you can make any money these days with a forum..

I have no doubt you would have advertisers biting your hand off if the price was right.

:)

[creacom]

I do think that the advertising angle should be looked at too. More advertising around the forums and also why not paid sponsoring of the forums.

Jacqui

[Crossguard]

Yes, more but cheaper advertising would be good.

[Jayne]

I'm still upset that they are going to take my PM off me off me if I don't pay :cry:

I don't mind the other stuff, paying for logos etc, you can choose that if you want to...but loosing my PM would be very upsetting. I may have to find another forum with free PM I think. I would be sad to go, but it would be boring without the PM. I know I could help people anywhere I go, but will be sad to leave.

Jayne :)

[bwglaw]

Relax Jayne, they have not decided anything yet and may have changed their views after further posts. I know you will suffer without your PM. Your last post sounds like an ultimatum ;)

Previous suggestions sound a good way forward to see if the situ improves. Cheap advertising. What about adverts from Tradedoubler and Commission Junction?

On top of that, there must be someone on here that can offer free/cheap hosting. I would offer this through Hands On Internet Ltd but we only have Windows servers, when this forum is best on Linux.

Tom has offered to do the updates each month - sounds good, in exchange for a button ad.

Now may be the time to start bartering....?

What would everyone expect to pay for a button ad same as to the left? and a banner ad same as to the top. I am curious for my own marketing

Any indication on traffic for this site?

[Rob Holmes]

On top of that, there must be someone on here that can offer free/cheap hosting.

Ozzy and I have spoken about hosting - without going into too much detail - no volunteers needed!

Rob

[Rob Holmes]

My gut feeling on CJ and trade doubler is that they are peppercorn money unless everyone decided to shop through them and then there maybe some mileage but I am unsure if it would get near the £1500 a month mark.

Jaynes did read like an ultimatum, shame really, hopefully it isn't. I don't rate ultimatums.

This is more about finding the best way forward with people providing suggestions and opinions so what is decided is best for the majority of people. With any change some people will go and others will come - obviously EVERY member in this community is important and I wouldn't like to see anyone go due to the changes - that said it's inevitable - but maybe others will join the community because of the changes.

Rob

[Top Hat]

To raise £1500 you need 600 paid up members.

There aren't 600 active members.

I guess you'd get about 50 at the most, enough to pay for hosting and a few updates.

Do the Math, it don't work :shock:

[bwglaw]

I can see where you are coming from Rob. Could get AdSense and we all agree to click an ad each time we post!

That £1500/month has got to come down one way or another ;)

Top Hat, that £1500 includes a very large budget for advertising which is rather high indeed when the site can generate organic traffic with its current popularity.

If you had paid up members with advertising privileges it will cover costs if the offline advertising is completely cut to 0 as well as Google Adwords, which is not really needed. Money can be well spent on optimising the site for the SE to crawl through the entire site.

Add a blog i.e. Wordpress which is FREE, and this will create more traffic. I am happy to write useful articles for businesses. Select some contributors and everyone else can respond. This site has PHP/mySQL so it will be a breeze to set up

[Jayne]

I was meaning, I think £100 to be in the posh section is way too much and if I do the lower payment to get my PM back i'll look like a crap business. Therefore if people think i'm crap i'd have to find another forum where everyone was equal. I don't want my biz to look rubbish when i've just started up.

I like helping other new businesses too and if they cannot contact me, because they cannot afford to pay for PM, I'll have to think of another way I can. That's all I was meaning.

Jayne :D

[creacom]

I think there will be a lot of businesses here who would only take the smaller packages Jayne.

So dont worry about being seen in a negative light. Im sure the small packages would by far out number the premium ones.

Jacqui

[Jayne]

Thnaks Jacqui,

It's just everyone talks like the forum is a business, it isn't suppose to be, it's somewhere we all help each other. There must be enough businesses here to help Ozzy not have to pay for it, by all helping and keeping the forum free as it is.

Jayne :D

[confused]

Well heres my opinion.

I have only ever joined one board that required a fee, that was experts exchange (a technical board), the reason for that is, often when I googled a technical problem, it came up with an EE link, but when you clicked it, you could read the question and then there was a "click here to sign up and see the answer" I did, and found that not all the answers were there ! (a bit like when you search for a product and get a bloody kelkoo page) So I didnt bother subscribing again, there are plenty of free ones which are just as good.
There are of course not as many business forums, I have only really found this and another uk one (quite a few members there with the same names as on here - could there be a mass exodus over to the other board??)
I dont find it unreasonable to ask for a few quid back for hosting/maintaining the boards, but I would like to see something in return in addition to PM's and a gif in my signature. I really think different levels of membership is a bad idea for reasons already mentioned, and I totally agree with Jayne's points.
Take a look at http://www.tropicalfish.site5.com/tfc/ a message board all about tropical fish, look at the amount of posts and users there are, free PM's, free signatures, you can have images on posts, and hardly any adverts, 10000 members and over half a million posts, and plenty of articles as well, not just a board. How are these boards (and many many more) funded? it may be worth looking in to how they do it.
People may argue that its only £30 a year or whatever, but if I payed £30 a year for every board I'm a member of I'd be well skint by now.
I really think that if there was a charge, then there would be less members. If there HAS to be a charge for "premier membership" then I feel there should be only one level. And as a free member you MUST be allowed to post replies to posts and have PM's otherwise IMO the site would die after a while which would be a great shame, I think it would eventually end up with the same few people chatting about the same few things.

CALV

[coxadmin]

I was meaning, I think £100 to be in the posh section is way too much and if I do the lower payment to get my PM back i'll look like a crap business. Therefore if people think i'm crap i'd have to find another forum where everyone was equal. I don't want my biz to look rubbish when i've just started up.

I like helping other new businesses too and if they cannot contact me, because they cannot afford to pay for PM, I'll have to think of another way I can. That's all I was meaning.

Jayne :D

Jayne

I would be in the same place as you - I don't think people would necessarily look at the likes of you and I as crap businesses but as choosing to spend budgets in different areas. If people look at the amount you pay for your subscription and use that to rate a business, then I think that would be like saying that companies that use Smart cars as company cars are worse than those that use BMWs - it's down to personal or corporate choice. Personally I'd rather use the business with a Smart car and knwo that I wasn't paying through the nose towards the purchase and upkeep of a BMW.

I hope that makes sense! Let me know if you need clarification.

[confused]

I forgot to ask, wheres the vote button ?

[Rob Holmes]

I forgot to ask, wheres the vote button ?

Top of the page unless you've already voted

Rob

[Rob Holmes]

It's just everyone talks like the forum is a business, it isn't suppose to be, it's somewhere we all help each other.

Yep - and thats what makes this such a fantastic community - anyone can turn up and be helped totally free. That is a very unique thing in this day and age and long may it continue.

Thing is it's costing Ozzy £1500 a month to keep it going.

Brainwave needed - to keep things free but cover some costs.

:)

[Cornish Steve]

I forgot to ask, wheres the vote button ?

Top of the page unless you've already voted

Rob
There must have been a time limit. I noticed this morning that the vote button had disappeared and the results are now displayed. (I had been waiting to read more before casting my vote. Serves me right for procrastinating!)

[confused]

Top of the page unless you've already voted
I looked there! must have already voted, thanks

Thing is it's costing Ozzy £1500 a month to keep it going.

Brainwave needed - to keep things free but cover some costs
indeed, a brainwave is needed, and I'm sure one will arrive.

CALV

[confused]

There must have been a time limit. I noticed this morning that the vote button had disappeared and the results are now displayed
maybe I didnt vote then lol

[gordonthegofor]

Having read the posts I feel I would change my vote to no charge on the basis of £1500 / 600 = £25 a year although I would be prepared to pay this as this forum is at the moment. I think there would be an ever increasing decline in the quality of those posting as those that find the cost to much leave and less are willing to join

Someone suggested that part of the £1500 goes on advertising, is this advertising this forum
if so what is the acual cost to run without advertising the forum or promoting it (assuming that those running it are going to continue out of the goodness of ther heart), and could that be funded with a charge for allowing banners on posts

If it is costing ozzy £1500 a month out of his pocket I am very grateful for his generosity and hope it can be sorted out soon as few can afford that out lay indefintely

Thanks again to all that are responsible for supplying this forum for free

[crus]

£1500 a month,

geezz this forum isnt that busy.

PM me ozzy I will sort for you!

At worst this could be sorted, and locked down for 10 times the size, for a couple of ton a month (excluding programmin and advertising)

D

[bwglaw]

Gordon

Ozzy said actual running cost is £200/month thats for hosting and developer's costs for security. I think this is the minimum to keep the site alive!

£300 on flyers at events - anyone with a business spend that much a month on flyers?!

[crus]

Sounds more realistsic.

OK so why not sell advertising on the flyers,
I am sure that the cost of the flyers and distribution could be covered by a 'featured' member on the reverse!

Otherwise if the current bevvy of ads isnt hitting the mark, PM me as I have another idea that would 100% generate a slab of revenue from the site.

D

[gordonthegofor]

Thanks Hands on Group
My business spends about £125 a month on advertising Flyers are of no value to me

£200/month is still an expensive hobby
Where did the figure of £1500 per month come from
Or are those organising the forum wishing to get some return for there efforts (I have no problem with this)

Thanks again to all that are responsible for supplying this forum for free

[Rob Holmes]

Otherwise if the current bevvy of ads isnt hitting the mark, PM me as I have another idea that would 100% generate a slab of revenue from the site.

Is it something you could suggest as part of the thread?

Rob

[Rob Holmes]

Where did the figure of £1500 per month come from Or are those organising the forum wishing to get some return for there efforts (I have no problem with this)

It was a figure used by Ozzy a couple of pages into the thread :)

Rob

[Urban Space]

Weren't you meeting the person on Thursday, Rob?

Liam

[bwglaw]

It was Ozzy who is meeting the person, not Rob.

Ozzy said he is sitting on the fence. Now then, if that fence was erected by Fastfences, he would have:

a. fallen off last week;
b. Still there for another 10 years

A or B

;)

[easyasit]

So, what's your thoughts guys? Feedback greatly received.
Ultimately, I want the forums to continue to grow and remain successful and don't want to make any changes that will ruin that, but at the same time earn some money. Not just for me and to cover costs, but I'd also like the moderators to earn something for their time also.

I can certainly see your point Ozzy.
The ukbf after all is becoming well known within the business world esp up here in northampton. where i believe u are also from.
It is also natural that you now would like to make some money from it. and why not you have about 3000 members now. Certainly one of the biggest on the internet.
So its stands to reason, to cover costs, time etc. you are going to want to make some money from it. We understand this i am sure we are all business people.
However and you sensed there was a but coming didn;t you:-)

People want somthing for free in life. If it cost ppl don;t want to know, if its free, ppl want it.
I have seen it on this forum time and time again. Free ads Yes please here is my card. Ads for Cash no one wants to know.
I see a number of people saying they would pay, i for one would not.

here is for why.
you are not the only business forum online, there are others.
The only reason i remain is to network and get advise.
i can get this from other media, free.
Also as soon as someone comes to join, they will defect elsewhere as soon as they see its gonna cost!:-)

This pretty wells sums up what others i have speaking to think as well.

In truth you have a fine orgainisation here, i even think i called it a family.
Well it is, and i have met some fine ppl n here. continue to so.

Suggestions
Here are a few
Sell advertising space to ppl now.
Charge for a listing in the directory
Charge for a banner.
Perhaps even as claire suggested start selling cups etc with the logo on. i for one would buy one!
There are ways of making money without being this drastic.

i also sense if u carry the above out there is no going back. It is hard to re gain customers once they are lost. Paying or not we are customers on here :-)
I think in all theory and fairness, it is better to have an active forum with the chances of doing something with it, than a sudden dead one.

i think all u will do is open the opportunity for someone not so bother about making money to build another forum, offer the same as ukbf does, and take al your members away.
but if u charge for membership, i think this place will die.
sorry Ozz but there it is mate

for what its worth

Alf Garnet! :-)

[Ozzy]

Hi Guys,
Met the developer on Thursday and I took with me the posts on this thread up until Thursday lunctime to go through.

They are working a quote out for me for some the development of the new forum, along with a monthly maintenance contract. This is obviously going to cost ;)

They are going to build in the following for definite;
- The UK Members business directory
- Moving the forums onto vBulletin
- Improved banner advertising system, with an "advertise with u