Very unhappy with accountant - what to do?

[Thorn]

Hi all,

Posting virgin - please be gentle!

I've had my own small copywriting business for eight years now, four of those as a limited company. I'm the only employee and make at best £40,000 a year before taxes, although the last year has been very down, as most people's businesses are.

I think my business is very stripped down and easy to understand. I sell my writing skills to business clients, either personally or remotely and that's about it. My books are very clear and easy to understand and I have few overheads - in fact, my accountant is my highest cost!

The issue is, I dislike my accountant, both professionally and personally. I think I'm being overcharged and do not feel I'm getting the support and advice i would expect when paying over £1,000 a year.

I certainly need help - although I make my living on the strength of my command of English, my mathematics skills are pretty much non-existent. I've read the sticky advice, but still feel in the dark - can anyone talk me through what I should do please?

[Manukau]

Hi Thorn,

Sorry to be blunt with my response, but find another accountant.....:)

Imo Probably best to breakdown everything that your accountant does effectvly put it out to tender, shop around these forums for a start. Letting them know what exactly you require and asking for a detailed proprosals and costs, allowing you to get a good comparison to your current accountant.

From this you can narrow this down to do you want to work remotely with your accountant or do you want to see them face to face, buidl this into part of your requirments.

thats just thoughts on the matter, feel free to PM with any questions that you might not feel comfortable asking directly on the forum's

Martin

[Zöe]

If you think your issues with your accountant can be resolved then speak to them and address your concerns. Otherwise, if you are not happy then you should take your business elsewhere. It is very easy to change accountants and your new accountant will probably take care of the process for you.

I would recommend that you make appointments with a few accountants and see which one you feel most comfortable giving your business to. Most will provide a free consultation so there shouldn't be any charge.

There are lots of people in your position who stick with the same accountant even though they aren't getting the service they deserve, either because they feel their accountant knows their business very well or a misguided sense of loyalty. Accountants are like any other service provider and if you aren't getting value for money you should find a new one.

Kind regards

Zöe

[Jenni384]

Hi Thorn, welcome to the forum and sorry to hear you aren't happy.

It's very important that you get on with your accountant, at least professionally, if not personally as well.

Changing accountants, if that's what you want to do, is a very simple process. The only hard part is choosing the new one! Most accountants will offer a free first meeting so all it costs you is your time.

As to price, £1000 is roughly in the right ballpark for a Ltd Co (we aren't sure exactly what services you are getting for that) but I am sure you could find cheaper. If it's as simple as you say then our fees, for example, would be lower than that.

Remember that price is not the only factor - value for money is. And that value includes getting the support and advice you want!

Have you spoken to your accountant with your concerns? I would suggest this is the first port of call. If you get a satisfactory response then that's great. If not, then I think you may want to look for a new accountant - after all, it's better to spend your money with someone you like and whose expertise you trust.

If you are happy to work remotely with an accountant (which many businesses are) then there are plenty of accountants on this forum who would be happy to speak with you and give you a quote.

[elainec100@cheapaccounting]

Changing accountants is simple - this is what happens:

http://www.cheapaccounting.co.uk/mainnavnewac.php

Have a read of the sticky on how to select a new one - see top of this forum

I can understand not liking your accountant - we are funny buggers to work with :eek:

But there are some good ones around - so go for it and hopefully you wil get a nice one :p

With respect it sounds like you have got your accounts well organised - so you should be a gift to any accountant.

[Thorn]

Hi everyone,

Thanks for the quick replies! I've butted heads several times with my accountant, both by mail and in person, over his attitude, the lateness of his notifications and some of his costs (he took half of my online submission discount a couple of years back because he claimed he had to buy new hardware with which to do it!) . He refuses to itemise his invoices for me, which makes me even more suspicious.

Although it's a full accountants (secretary, book keepers, juniors and seniors) everything comes to a screeching halt when the main man goes on holiday or is off sick - in fact, they made me late and cost me money because of this last year.

I need out - just don't know where to go. Does my accountant need to be local - a lot of my costs seem based on the fact I get called in for at least three meetings every year. My electrician, by comparison, hasn't met his personally for several years.

[MyAccountantOnline]

Hi Thorn

I agree entirely with what others have said.

Ultimately if you choose a professionally qualified and experienced accountant we can all do the job, but its how we do it which is so important.

Accountants work in a service industry and need to be able to relate to clients in a way that they feel comfortable and at ease.

My advice - have a chat with other accountants and find someone you feel you can work with.

Good luck.:)

[elainec100@cheapaccounting]

Does my accountant need to be local - a lot of my costs seem based on the fact I get called in for at least three meetings every year. My electrician, by comparison, hasn't met his personally for several years.


What do you chat about?

Can it be done by phone / email etc.

All of our clients work that way - keeps the costs down.

Actually I don't think they want to see me!

It doesn't suit all - like a lot in life. Go for what works for you.

[Zöe]

Hi Thorn

I would also have a chat with potential accountants about fixed fees. This way you know exactly what you are paying for which services and there aren't any surprise invoices. Some accountants include calls and meetings within their fixed fees.

As others have said, there are plenty of good ones out there so don't give up hope!

Kind regards

Zöe

[MyAccountantOnline]

He refuses to itemise his invoices for me, which makes me even more suspicious.


I wont defend your current accountant but few accountants itemise bills now because many of us work on a fixed fee basis.

In the bad old days accountants would charge by the 10/15 minute unit for all time spent on a clients affairs - this meant fees would easily rack up for phone calls, letters etc and you never knew what you would be paying.

Fixed fees mean this is a thing of the past but of course it does mean an itemised bill isnt possible unless of course you ask your accountant to charge based on time.

Does my accountant need to be local

That's your choice - as an example I act for local clients who I see several times a year but also have some clients based hundreds of miles away that I will probably never see. I can work for both as many accountants do. Its personal preference of what you want.

[orlok]

Changing accountants is simple - this is what happens:

http://www.cheapaccounting.co.uk/mainnavnewac.php

Have a read of the sticky on how to select a new one - see top of this forum

I can understand not liking your accountant - we are funny buggers to work with :eek:

But there are some good ones around - so go for it and hopefully you wil get a nice one :p

With respect it sounds like you have got your accounts well organised - so you should be a gift to any accountant.
Thanks for the useful advice Elaine.

Just wanted to point out a small typo on the page linked to. In Step 3 it says "Once we have received the response form your accountant ". Hope you don't mind - just my anal nature coming out...

Regards

Pete

[elainec100@cheapaccounting]

Great - thanks. I love having free proof reading . Please do more.

As much as you read it through yourself - you just never spot it.

Anyway - please have a look at this link now:

http://www.cheapaccounting.co.uk/mainnavnewac.php

[elainec100@cheapaccounting]

7 minutes to correct :)

Bring it on!

[Jenni384]

Great - thanks. I lobe having free proof reading . Please do more.
Aww Elaine, you're funny :D :p

[elainec100@cheapaccounting]

Great - thanks. I love having free proof reading . Please do more.




Jenni - you have misquoted me :D:D:D

[Thorn]

Arrgh - just replied to you all one by one and my browser's swallowed it!!

To summarise, I have met with my accountant several times, he seems to call me in at the drop of a hat, yet it often seems to be just to get signatures and to go over the figures that he sends me anyway.

I've taken him to task a few times - both for the rudeness/lateness of his communications and for claiming I haven't sent certain bank account pages or utility bills, which I've found every time just by sifting the papers in front of him! He often digresses into chat about the difficulties of being an accountant, how my business is going, what type of clients I've had lately... all of which seems to cost me money to discuss but has no benefit!

He doesn't work on fixed fees, so I do feel I need itemised costs, not things like "meetings, corespondence and sundries". Maybe I'm just awkward, but I hope not!

My accounts are kept in old-fashioned ledgers, with incomings and outgoings numbered to correspond with numbered receipts that I keep clipped in order, and that's about it. He requests all my bank statements and utility bills to accompany them. Am I just archaic? Would a spreadsheet system make it easier/cheaper?

[elainec100@cheapaccounting]

Discuss a new system or not with your new accountant.

Seems to me like you need a bit of a push to move - but you know it will make sense.

Go for it.

[Thorn]

Oh, to Manukau: " Probably best to breakdown everything that your accountant does effectively put it out to tender, shop around these forums for a start. Letting them know what exactly you require and asking for a detailed proposal and costs, allowing you to get a good comparison to your current accountant" - that seems like a a good idea - am I allowed to do that on here, or is it against the rules?

[elainec100@cheapaccounting]

that seems like a a good idea - am I allowed to do that on here, or is it against the rules?

You can but I think people would prefer to quote off line.

Mind you - you can see my fees on the web site :p

[Thorn]

Discuss a new system or not with your new accountant.

Seems to me like you need a bit of a push to move - but you know it will make sense.

Go for it.

Think you're right - I really can't carry on with my present accountant, but the amount of choice and factors involved is making my tiny brain explode!

[Manukau]

Oh, to Manukau: " Probably best to breakdown everything that your accountant does effectively put it out to tender, shop around these forums for a start. Letting them know what exactly you require and asking for a detailed proposal and costs, allowing you to get a good comparison to your current accountant" - that seems like a a good idea - am I allowed to do that on here, or is it against the rules?


Hi thorn,

Sorry if i lead to confusion on that, by put out to tender i mean approach people (PM or click on their Links) and speak with them direct about your requirments.

br

martin

[elainec100@cheapaccounting]

Think you're right - I really can't carry on with my present accountant, but the amount of choice and factors involved is making my tiny brain explode!


Ok to try to make it easier:

what are your top 3 (or 5) things you want e.g. service, price, locality, speed of response ....


Write them down, select no more than 5 to ask for a quote and to talk to about your selection criteria.

Failing than put names into a hat :):p:D

[elainec100@cheapaccounting]

Hi Have sent you a PM


welcome to the forum? :rolleyes:

[Big Pete]

Hi all,

Posting virgin - please be gentle!

I've had my own small copywriting business for eight years now, four of those as a limited company. I'm the only employee and make at best £40,000 a year before taxes, although the last year has been very down, as most people's businesses are.

I think my business is very stripped down and easy to understand. I sell my writing skills to business clients, either personally or remotely and that's about it. My books are very clear and easy to understand and I have few overheads - in fact, my accountant is my highest cost!

The issue is, I dislike my accountant, both professionally and personally. I think I'm being overcharged and do not feel I'm getting the support and advice i would expect when paying over £1,000 a year.

I certainly need help - although I make my living on the strength of my command of English, my mathematics skills are pretty much non-existent. I've read the sticky advice, but still feel in the dark - can anyone talk me through what I should do please?


Just change accountants there ten a penny , you choose one you like and get on with and one who works in YOUR favour not the taxmans ;)

[SarahCollins]

Thorn, seeing your post made me delurk and register to comment!

I feel your pain and your frustration. A couple of years ago I stopped using an accountant after I felt I wasn't getting value for money. Like you, I'm a copywriter and have simple accounts as well.

My information was in very good order and backed up by all the correct entries into Sage software, yet I was charged a small fortune for 'checking' and filing. I was charged more that year than I had ever been charged by them before, even when I handed my accounts across as shopping bags full of paper!

There was no breakdown of costs. I know that the bulk of the 'work' would have been done by the office bookkeeper whose time was charged out at £25 an hour. There was no way she had spent the amount of time claimed to justify the cost. All the core bookkeeping had already been done and there were no changes to the information I provided.

Whether or not there had been substantial price increases that year I don't know. I certainly know if there were I was never informed.

For me, the most important criteria are value for money, transparency and sensible advice.

I find asking for honest recommendations from trusted business colleagues the best way to go.

[DFL]

Not defending the accountant in question but no client ever says that they keep bad records!

That said, if your records aren't good then he should be educating you as to what is taking up time, though it seems to me that he isn't that interested if he is hourly billing rather than fixed fee.

There are many good accountants around, don't let this one tar your image of the profession, not all are rude or aloof as may have been the case in years gone by.

It is an easy process to make a switch so if you are thinking of doing so then go for it - as others have advised talk to a few and see who you feel most comfortable with. Advise new accountant all of the things that irked you about the last one to ensure they know what your expected service level / pricing attitude is.

[Andymcl]

Hello Thorn,

In my experience you need an accountant to tailor their services to your needs not you to theirs. If this is done correctly you will pay a fair fee for the services you require.

At 40k turnover you could be much better off as a sole trader... I was.

Check out cleartax.co.uk, they spell out the basic package costs from the outset on the website, and more importantly tailored their services to exactly what I needed.

As a sole trader Designer & Illustrator I have had some very valuable help, they are a new business but there is many years of experience in practice and corporate work. Fees have been based on what services I have required not on my turnover.

A friend of mine has been paying £1.5k + book keeping fees for his business with a simple business setup, needless to say he's moving to my accountant!

Hope this helps, best of luck.

AndyMcL

[Zeno]

Hello Thorn,

In my experience you need an accountant to tailor their services to your needs not you to theirs. If this is done correctly you will pay a fair fee for the services you require.

At 40k turnover you could be much better off as a sole trader... I was.

Check out cleartax.co.uk, they spell out the basic package costs from the outset on the website, and more importantly tailored their services to exactly what I needed.

As a sole trader Designer & Illustrator I have had some very valuable help, they are a new business but there is many years of experience in practice and corporate work. Fees have been based on what services I have required not on my turnover.

A friend of mine has been paying £1.5k + book keeping fees for his business with a simple business setup, needless to say he's moving to my accountant!

Hope this helps, best of luck.

AndyMcL

Is this entirely impartial?

[Andymcl]

Someone in the same position as me requests some advice on the interaction between themselves and their accountant.

I reply based on my own experiences and this is deemed not to be impartial. Are you frustrated that it was not your business that fulfilled my accounting requirements?

[Epindura]

What exactly does your accountant do for you that he is charging £1000/year for. Accountants are not cheap, and mind you they are not really qualified to advise you on all business matters, they themselves need advise also. They are mostly good at accounting and other very basic business advise.

I don't know what advise you ae looking them to give but I strongly suggest you find a business mentor who can help you to take your business to a higher level or the levele that you want it to.

Have you considered investing time into understanding basic accounting softwares like Sage or Quickbooks? You may need to consult with an accountant only when it's absolutely necessary.

Eddington

[Zeno]

Someone in the same position as me requests some advice on the interaction between themselves and their accountant.

I reply based on my own experiences and this is deemed not to be impartial. Are you frustrated that it was not your business that fulfilled my accounting requirements?

No, not at all. I'm not on here for clients, I do it for fun (yes I know, get a life etc etc but each to their own).

The cynic in me wonders why that for your first post, no introduction, you go straight into a gushing recommendation of your current fabulous accountant that reads like a testimonial on a web site.

[Zeno]

Have you considered investing time into understanding basic accounting softwares like Sage or Quickbooks? You may need to consult with an accountant only when it's absolutely necessary.

Despite what the software houses would have you believe, we are a long way away from being able to consign accountants to the knackers yard.

Even the most advanced accounts production software/taxation packages require you to know exactly what you are doing.

Good luck at getting advice from Sage/HMRC too.

[elainec100@cheapaccounting]

The cynic in me wonders why that for your first post, no introduction, you go straight into a gushing recommendation of your current fabulous accountant that reads like a testimonial on a web site.


I no - I am turning into Zeno.

I thought the same :rolleyes:

[Alpha]

I no - I am turning into Zeno.

I thought the same :rolleyes:

Actually I do hope he didn't design their website........... one link says


CIOT Chartered Institute of Taxasion website (http://www.tax.org.uk/):D:D:D


Sorry couldn't resist it.

[business123]

Someone in the same position as me requests some advice on the interaction between themselves and their accountant.

I reply based on my own experiences and this is deemed not to be impartial. Are you frustrated that it was not your business that fulfilled my accounting requirements?
Perhaps it's because the cleartax.co.uk domain is registered by someone called Andy McLxxxxxx and registered in Cambridge?

[Zöe]

Perhaps it's because the cleartax.co.uk domain is registered by someone called Andy McLxxxxxx and registered in Cambridge?

and the contact is Janine McLxxxxxxx? :)

[maxine]

Thorn - sounds to me like you need to get out of that relationship :) I do lead generation for accountants and most of them are fantastic people who would really go the extra mile for their clients, quite often not billing them as much as they should do, and all of which are on a fixed fee arrangement, and all of whom would be quite miffed to lose a client like you.

When I am cold calling to businesses though it can be like a stuck record with many people saying they don't like their accountant, but been with them for years, don't want to upset them, feel that they should stay with them because they know their business and have all their records, but really after they have moved they then say they should have done it sooner.

Good luck :)

[DFL]

I have heard that Dormer Finance Ltd are exceptional, brilliant, genuiuses the lot of them.

I have no connection.

Regards
Jason Dormer

;)

[elainec100@cheapaccounting]

Hello Thorn,

In my experience you need an accountant to tailor their services to your needs not you to theirs. If this is done correctly you will pay a fair fee for the services you require.

At 40k turnover you could be much better off as a sole trader... I was.

Check out cleartax.co.uk, they spell out the basic package costs from the outset on the website, and more importantly tailored their services to exactly what I needed.

As a sole trader Designer & Illustrator I have had some very valuable help, they are a new business but there is many years of experience in practice and corporate work. Fees have been based on what services I have required not on my turnover.

A friend of mine has been paying £1.5k + book keeping fees for his business with a simple business setup, needless to say he's moving to my accountant!

Hope this helps, best of luck.

AndyMcL


Well what a prat :rolleyes::rolleyes:

How stupid does he think we all are and it does his wife(?) no good at all.

If you look who developed the site - it is Andy.

Oh dear :eek:

[elainec100@cheapaccounting]

I have heard that Dormer Finance Ltd are exceptional, brilliant, genuiuses the lot of them.

I have no connection.

Regards
Jason Dormer

;)

Is that because you do no work there :|:rolleyes::D:D

[elainec100@cheapaccounting]

Taxasion (http://www.tax.org.uk/):D:D:D


.

Is that tax evasion?

[elainec100@cheapaccounting]

Someone in the same position as me requests some advice on the interaction between themselves and their accountant.

I reply based on my own experiences

with my wife!

[Alpha]

Andy

We are well versed in these stupid attempts at promotion and they all stand out like a one sided balance sheet.

Perhaps you should get your wife to join the community, participate, be helpful and by doing that she will undoubtedly have the opportunity to generate clients:)

Oh and stick to your area of expertise as well:)

[elainec100@cheapaccounting]

Oh and stick to your area of expertise as well:)

Don't think that is spelling :rolleyes:

Why is there a link to the ACCA site there I wonder?

[Zeno]

I no - I am turning into Zeno.

I thought the same :rolleyes:

Oh dear. Slippery slope Elaine. Reminds me of when I realised I was turning into my Dad. People used to say how alike we were but I never saw it until one day when I was visiting my Mum was discussing her recent hair cut and we simultaneously shouted "How much?".

Beats me why our pal Andy couldn't just have got his wife to join in. Would have ben far better PR than this pointless excercise.

[DFL]

Elaine - You know me too well :)

Oh dear. Slippery slope Elaine. Reminds me of when I realised I was turning into my Dad. People used to say how alike we were but I never saw it until one day when I was visiting my Mum was discussing her recent hair cut and we simultaneously shouted "How much?"

If you start asking vistors what route they took they took or where they parked, or what the traffic was like you know that you have fully morphed.

[ArcherC]

Does AndyMcL's post classs as advertising, publicity and promotion for the CIOT members? If yes, then member is in directo breach of PRPG Rule
14.2.2 Not be misleading any way
14.2.4 accurate, not ambiguous and is not likely to cause public offence
14.2.7 Should be factually and techinically accurate

If Andy is related to CIOT member, IMO the member may get in trouble!

[RAL]

Thorn - sounds to me like you need to get out of that relationship :) I do lead generation for accountants and most of them are fantastic people who would really go the extra mile for their clients, quite often not billing them as much as they should do, and all of which are on a fixed fee arrangement, and all of whom would be quite miffed to lose a client like you.



Hello Maxine

Thorn is OP and he wants to change the accountant. I do no think he is looking to change the relationship!:p:rolleyes::|

[maxine]

Hello Maxine

Thorn is OP and he wants to change the accountant. I do no think he is looking to change the relationship!:p:rolleyes::|

I meant get out of his relationship with his accountants :)

[RAL]

I meant get out of his relationship with his accountants :)

I thought you were advising AndyMcL:p;)

[RAL]

Don't think that is spelling :rolleyes:

Why is there a link to the ACCA site there I wonder?

Why would there link to the ACCA site?

[elainec100@cheapaccounting]

Why would there link to the ACCA site?

That is my question:|:|:|:|:rolleyes: