Hello from a Cambridge based web agency

[camweb]

Hi

I've been a web designer and developer for over 6 years working for large corporate comapnies as well as agencies. I've decided to bite the bullet and finally work for myself.

I've set up the company Cambridge Web Solutions and hopefully it will do well.

I'm based in Cambridge but can produce websites for anyone no matter what your location is as most of it can be done via phone and email.

I look forward to speaking to a lot of you on the forums.

All the best

Adam

[easiprint]

Welcome Adam,

Love your website.

Simon

[camweb]

Thanks, it's still in the tinkering stage where I'm never quite fully happy with it and make several small changes per day. Hopefully I won't have the time to do this soon.

[Peter Bowen]

I also took a look at your site - I like the little men doing stuff.

I'm wondering why this is touted as a virtue on your front page
"Cambridge Web Solutions do notuse templates so you can be confident that you will have a bespoke, one of a kind website which is coded by hand to meet W3C web standards."? It's not the first time I've seen this kind of thinking.

I would have thought that coding a website by hand would be much more expensive that starting off with a nice template and making a few tweaks to get exactly what was needed.

I'd value your thoughts - I'm no web designer so I don't understand the thinking behind the 'hand coding' ethos.

[BusinessIdeas]

Hello Adam, nice to see you here - Gina :)

[camweb]

Hi Peter, good question.

A template website will often look fairly professional to people viewing the site, the main difference is within the code, and it is the code that search engines and screen readers look at rather than what the site looks like.

A template built using a WISIWIG (what you see is what you get) editor will insert lots and lots of unnecessary extra code, this means that the file size is bigger, it's slower to load (not such a bad thing on broadband but if people are accessing your site through a mobile phone it is), it uses more bandwidth, search engines won't rank it as highly, web users with sight difficulties who use screen readers won't be able to read it, there is a good chance it will not look correct on all browsers and it won't meet W3C web standards.

The main difference to a website owner will be when they want changes made to the site. If the site is coded and uses a style sheet, every single page will use that same style sheet. To make a change you simply make it within the style sheet and it automatically changes every page within the site. Templates will not usually have as style sheet and changes will have to be made to every single page. A developer who has built the site from scratch will be able to make any changes, add new pages or make it so that you can edit the content yourself a lot more easily and quicker than amending a template.

Developers who use WISIWIG editors are not really developers at all, anyone could use one within about half an hour of opening it up and build a site within the hour (it's just a case of copying and pasting your copy across into it and adding images). Learning all the different programming languages as well as search engine optimisation techniques and keeping up will all the latest technologies within an ever changing industry takes years.

The other thing is cost; I've seen a lot of companies sell 5 page template websites for a low fee such at £29 but then charge £40 per month. Over a year this comes to £509 and they will then continue to charge you £40 per month as long as you have the website. A 5 page site from us will cost you £299 but that includes a year’s hosting, after that year hosting will only be £5 per month so it actually works out a lot cheaper in the long run. I will also spend time looking at your site and checking it's visitor stats and assessing where it could do better to help you get the most from your website. We are also currently allowing people who buy a 5 page website from us now to pay for it over 6 months.
If you can find a very cheap template site and the website is a personal or a family one then I'd say go with that. However if it is for business I would always go for hand coded. If your website can easily be found on Google then your sales will almost certainly rise by a lot, compare this to the cost of advertising in other, more traditional ways.

I hope this answers your question, if you have any more I'm happy to answer them.

Kind regards

Adam
P.S. You can view a websites code by right clicking on the page (providing it’s not Flash) and then clicking ‘View Source’. You should hopefully be able to see the difference between my site and this one for example pigscorner . com (I can't post links yet as I've not written 15 posts).

[camweb]

Hello Adam, nice to see you here - Gina :)

Thanks Gina

[Peter Bowen]

Hi Adam,

Thanks for your detailed reply.

Does this mean that you build websites for your clients from scratch using a text editor and not some kind of cms or tool like dreamweaver etc?

Cheers

Pete

[camweb]

Hi Peter

That is correct, I hand code in Notepad or Dreamweaver code view (not design view as that fills the site with extra code). Dreamweaver code view is the same as notepad except it uses colour to identify different parts of the code rather than just black and White This makes it easier to search for certain bits in the code if I need to make changes. It puts CSS in pink, PHP in red etc.

The only time I would use an existing CMS like Joomla is if someone specifically asks for it, otherwise I would build my own CMS for them that suits their exact needs. Existing CMS systems tend to try to be everything to everyone so can be confusing to people who are not web savvy. A lot of companys are now using Wordpress as a CMS but it isn't ideal as it was designed to be a blogging tool.

Kind regards

Adam

[Peter Bowen]

Wow! Doesn't that take ages?

I'm looking at the example you gave of a 5 page website and hosting for £299. Assume the basic bottom end hosting for a year will knock £50 off the price that leaves just @249 for:


the hosting setup,
design,
css,
building the 5 pages from scratch by hand in notepad or dreamweaver code view,
validating the code,
uploading the site,
checking it in various browsers,
client liaison,
invoicing and payment reconciliation,
looking at the site and checking it's visitor stats,
assessing where it could do better and
the normal overheads of running a business.

Won't you end up working for about minimum wage?

[maxine]

Hi Adam

Welcome to the forums :)

Regards
Max

[webteameu]

We wish you all the best, and good luck with your venture!

webteameu

[camweb]

Hi Peter

Thanks for your concern, I've built over 100 websites so it has got to the stage where coding html, and css is like writing English. As I'm hand coding the site I know it will validate (I check anyway) and as it validates it's nearly always fine on all browsers including IE6, IE7, IE8, Firefox, Opera, Safari and Chrome, I also test it on PC, Mac and the iPhone. There is occasionally an issue with IE6 but never anything that can't be sorted quickly.

The hosting setup and the upload of the site is a 10 minute job with a website that size. The stats don't take long to set up and once set up the client can then log in and check them.

I have tools that assess the websites, their search engine positions and help me see where the site can improve.

This just leaves liaising with the client and sending an invoice (which I never mind doing) :o)

I calculated the prices by estimating how long the site will take me and then multiply that by 40. Overheads (of which there are not many at the moment) are subtracted from this. It won't make me millions (yet) but it's not minimum wage, if I found that I was working for the minimum wage I would have to higher my prices but at the moment they are fine.

Adam

[electroforms]

I'm trying to work out the economics of it myself, and is something I frequently discuss with other web designers.

While the site build itself (for a static 3 page site) can be done in a day or so, I find

A) understanding the client's requirements
B) creating the graphics and
C) design review before the client will pay for it.

would take up another solid couple of days effort.

Considering contractor rates are ~ £250 - £400 per day, you'd be wanting to be bringing in at least £500 A DAY to provide a buffer.

I know that you've got to keep your costs competitive, but I feel that these charges are FAR too low and would make me, personally, think twice about pursuing this.

However I wish you best of luck - keep us posted how you get on!

[camweb]

Designing the site - 2 hours
Coding a 5 page site to standards - 4 hours max
Invoicing and speaking to client - 1.5

7.5 x 40 = 300

Just out of curiosity how much would people be prepared to spend on a 5 page site? I'd be more than happy to raise prices but people would have to want to pay it.

[camweb]

Could you please tell me who pays their contractors £400 a day for html and css?

[electroforms]

My point is whether you want to base your business around price, or quality. And I know you're going to say both - that's not to say anything cheap is rubbish! - but would people pay more once you had built your reputation?

It's a good question - and I'd also like to know the answer. When you consider that design agencies can charge hundreds of thousands for a site - admittedly that is with a lot going on in the background - there must be a middle ground, where the independent can still get good business.

£400 a day would be the higher end of the contracting, and London rates at that, but have a look on any job site and you'll see. Admittedly that's with programming also, but I'm sure front-end only you would still be looking at £200 - £250.

Speaking as a web developer myself it's something I'm interested in too, but I'd like to know that websites were selling for £1500 a pop rather than £300!

[camweb]

I think the cost depends on the client rather than the website. I've done websites for very large property companys who pay £130 per hour but at the moment I'm targetting more local small businesses who won't pay that much. The main problem for me is that although I've designed and built sites for Silverstone, npower, Cambridge University and many other large companies, I did these whist working for an agency so I can't put these in my portfolio, this makes me appear like the bigger websites are too big for me when they are not. Hopefully the big clients will come knocking soon.

[electroforms]

Yes I can empathize with that, it is frustrating when you've actually done the work but can't claim any credit for it.

Out of curiosity - is it fair to say you are more graphic designer/front-end than database/architecture/programming side of things?

[camweb]

I'd say I was in the middle of front and back end. I've built lots of bespoke content management systems, online directories that allow those listed to edit their own profiles, one example of this is Hertfordshire hair salons where visitors can search via post code and it tells them the nearest salons and how many miles they are away. I'm not too hot with ASP but instead tend to use PHP.

[electroforms]

Sounds like you'll have nothing to worry about then. Suppose the main thing is never to turn down work, even if it's a massive job and you have to out-source it.

I've never heard a salesman say "We can't do that!"

Best of luck and keep us posted how you get on.

[Peter Bowen]

Suppose the main thing is never to turn down work, even if it's a massive job and you have to out-source it.

Dangerous philosophy I think.

It's tempting to say yes all the time, especially when you're just starting out but you can end up in all sorts of trouble choosing the wrong customers.

[webteameu]

I think its very hard to start up on your own, especially in such a competitive field. I think the logic behind the £250 is to basically build up a client base, and from there, build a portfolio. Once you are established, and can show off your portfolio, so that's when you can afford to raise your prices. Your work from what I can see is very professional, so I don't think anyone paying this price will lose out on quality. But I can see why the 250£ has been questioned. A website needs sales, project management, design, development to name but a few.

How many sales can you achieve per month, and project manage, including designing coding etc, in order to make a profit?

This is a road that needs to be walked, in order to get established, and we wish you good luck.

webteameu

[Peter Bowen]

I see the thought behind it but I wonder if a portfolio full of £299 budget websites is ever going to attract high profit customers?

I'd say if you're going to be the Ikea of web development you need to do what they do and sell piles of the same stuff - templates and cms websites.

If you're going to carve your websites by hand you need to find a market that values hand crafted and can afford it.

Somewhere in between the two ends is a hard place to be.

[Sublime Website Design]

Hi, I am a newbie too..Good Luck with your venture.

[camweb]

Due to the feedback received I am going to raise my prices but also write about the advantages of hand coding and a more personal service over a cheap template site. What are peoples thoughts in this?

Many thanks

Adam

[Tej]

Depends on whether you have been inundated with work.. and cannot cope at the prices you have published!.

No point in raising prices if you are looking for work... unless of course the prices were not viable in the first place.

IMO

[camweb]

We now have quite a bit of work coming in, quite a few sites are from this forum which is great. We have adjusted the prices so that people can pay monthly. A lot of companies at the moment don't have large sums of money to pay for websites so prefer to pay monthly.

[m.shane]

I am a bit confused about this web agency thing. how does it work? How can this help me establish a good website? Does it has to do with the lay out? Does it help me get high page rank? Please enlighten me. Thank you and more power!

[oxfordit]

I understand the dilemma with the pricing.

When we first started out we did exactly the same, targeted the smaller businesses who generally don't want to spend too much but know they have to spend something. This did us great for a while and certainly got us a good established client base. But, now that we have a reputation locally, and a pretty hefty sized portfolio behind us we are pulling in jobs in the £1000's.

Like you, we hand code all our sites, but we wont touch a site with 5 pages for anything less than £400.

At the moment though, businesses are a bit hesitant with spending money in lump sums, so we are offering a monthly payment package where the customer can pay for their site over 12 months. This has proved very popular!

Best of luck to you.

Rob