Why is there suffering in the world ?

[DotNetWebs]

<Mod Note: Thread split from the Intelligent Design / Evolution thread>

http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=7749


I never did get an answer (apart from MacmyDay) on why the Tsunami happened. I really would be interested in your replies please?

I mentioned the Tsunami earlier in this thread. Basically it was triggered by the sudden release of some 200 years of tension that had built up between two tectonic plates under the Indian Ocean. This caused the sea floor to be raised (instantly) over 40 feet along a fault line several hundred miles long.

Here are some useful links that explain this in more detail:

BBC animation of the Boxing Day Tsunami:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/4136289.stm

More detailed description of how tsunamis form:

http://geology.com/articles/tsunami-geology.shtml

Regards

Dotty

[DotNetWebs]

Have you ever read the plaque at the top of Snowdon?

I have never been to Snowdon. What does the plaque say?

Regards

Dotty

[Coding Monkey]

Dotty, Hayles was asking it based on a theological perspective; i.e. why did it happen if there is a God?

[Hayles]

Mac's right Dotty. I don't understand how it could happen if there is a God who has the capabilities of performing miracles. As I said before, what God would stand by and watch tens of thousands of innocent children drown through no fault of their own (or through the actions of any human 'sinners')?

[creospace]

It comes down to a theolgoical view on the actual control God has over the planet (known as the agency of God) and how much free will we have.

It's really a long long drawn out debate/discussion, I can go into greater depth if required but i'm not sure here is the place.

Gary

[Coding Monkey]

The answer you will hear everytime, Hayles, is the freewill debate. Yet it prompts the question that if, by the Christian standard, God is omniscient (knowing everything, future/ present/past), why would God create such a world where such suffering can take place? If you do indeed need suffering in the world to have pleasure, it would stipulate that a balance is required, and therefore the Tsnuami/Holocaust have resulted in an equal balance of happiness, or more happiness, than the suffering which took place.

I feel that would be a hard point to argue

[creospace]

Yes Tom it is a tricky one, but lets say for a moment God creted the planet and said ok you guys here's a plan how you should look after this thing, like most humons we didnt bother with the instructions and so it broke.

Is God to blame for for the suffering if we didn't/still don't follow the instructions?

The God is omniscient relies on our understanding of time, we can't get past the understandign of time and so understanding true omnicienty is a toughie.

An intersting debate/question.

[Hayles]

Yes Tom it is a tricky one, but lets say for a moment God creted the planet and said ok you guys here's a plan how you should look after this thing, like most humons we didnt bother with the instructions and so it broke.

Is God to blame for for the suffering if we didn't/still don't follow the instructions?

I can see that argument working for the Holocaust, all the terrible murders and attacks, and, if we believe in global warming, the New Orleans flooding which could be blamed on humans. But I don't see how the argument works for the Tsunami which was totally due to nature?

[creospace]

Your right and if i'm honest I don't have any answers to hand, none that can be argued, trodden on or give peace etc

There are plenty out there who think they have all the answers, they even know the end of the earth which to me is amazing :)

I guess that's just my faith coming into play and every day I learn more about the goodness of God.

One thing I do find interesting is that when somehting bad really happens the interest in God suddenly goes through the roof!

Gary

[Coding Monkey]

Also, if there is freewill, how are we supposed to know of what God wants from us? Mankind existed before the Bible. There is John Hicks epistemic distance argument that says God must remain at a specific distance so God does not interfer with our lives, but more questions are opened by this than answered.

[Coding Monkey]

One thing I do find interesting is that when somehting bad really happens the interest in God suddenly goes through the roof!

Gary

Absolutely. You're unlikely to hear of 200,000 people winning the lottery or coming back to life, and even then the coverage wouldn't be anywhere near as prominant as a disaster where religion is questioned time after time for the reasons of God.

[Hayles]

As you say, it boils down to having faith - and I sincerely wish I had it.

But I can't 'get' faith without answers.... :cry:

[DotNetWebs]

Dotty, Hayles was asking it based on a theological perspective; i.e. why did it happen if there is a God?

Oops, sorry it was a bit early in the morning for me, I didn't bother to read her original post. :oops:

Regards

Dotty

ps I can' t answer that one!

[Coding Monkey]

Sorry, Hayles, as much as I'd love to present the other side of the argument, I feel so strongly against it that it'd be so biased and wouldn't really present a fair view.

[Rob Holmes]

One thing I do find interesting is that when somehting bad really happens the interest in God suddenly goes through the roof!

Gary

Absolutely. You're unlikely to hear of 200,000 people winning the lottery or coming back to life, and even then the coverage wouldn't be anywhere near as prominant as a disaster where religion is questioned time after time for the reasons of God.

Hi Mac - would you say that the question is raised at the time of the disaster by people that believe in God or don't?

And why?

Rob

[Coding Monkey]

Hi Mac - would you say that the question is raised at the time of the disaster by people that believe in God or don't?

And why?

Rob

I believe the question is likely to be asked by agnostics rather than simple atheists. The atheist has nothing to gain in questioning the benevolent God, unless they're pressured into believing or have close ties to religion without their desired intension. The agnostic is uncertain, more likely through their own volition, as to what direction they wish to aim toward. There were a lot of debates on the BBC about the Tsnuami and God just afterwards, and in that case it is the use of the media to prompt the question.
It might shake many people's faith in the concept of a benevolent God, but I suspect for the large majority, they will already have battled this concept with the simple leap of faith.

[cjd]

I think we need a mod to split this thread into two - otherwise it's going to get into a mess - interesting tho' it is.

My 2p worth.

You can say anything you like about God, his motives and his plans. It really doesn't matter because not one word of it can be backed by any evidence.

If you believe God created the earth and gave us freedom of action and typhoid you can, and no-one can prove any differently.

[Coding Monkey]

Agreed with cjd

[Rob Holmes]

I think we need a mod to split this thread into two - otherwise it's going to get into a mess - interesting tho' it is.

I agree.

Done :)

Rob

[DotNetWebs]

LOL :lol:

It looks like I started a thread questioning God's motives, it was a complete accident I thought I was talking about Geology!

Regards

Dotty

ps Can you out my second post, about Snowdon, back with the original; thread? Or maybe Steve can answer it here.

[Rob Holmes]

LOL :lol:

It looks like I started a thread questioning God's motives, it was a complete accident I thought I was talking about Geology!

Regards

Dotty

ps Can you out my second post, about Snowdon, back with the original; thread? Or maybe Steve can answer it here.

Yes just for the record the phpbb software uses the person posting when threads are split as the thread starter so technically although Dotty started the theme that got split away from the main thread theme he didn't start this thread.

Maybe PM Steve and ask him to look here to answer your question :)

Rob

[cjd]

Mod is God

[Rob Holmes]

Mod is God

I'm not sure it's something Ozzy will include in the forums terms and conditions ;)

Rob

[creospace]

This is a link to a post regarding this question, I just read on blog of a friend who is a pastor and thinks out of the box.

http://www.jasonclark.ws/jasonclark/2005/12/where_was_god_.html

in it self it doesnt have answers but within the text there are some discussion points if you want to continue dicussing this topic.

Gary

[SillyJokes]

The reason there is suffering is because that is the way the world works. Even if you made it so that everyone lived a healthy happy life you still couldn't stop the laws of physics killing people.

It's a by product of the way life works.

[cjd]

One thing worth pondering is that the more educated we become and the more developed our economy and society gets, the less obvious suffering there is.

If you have a faith you might ask why God seems to save the worst for those that have the least?

[Asteeleleith]

One thing worth pondering is that the more educated we become and the more developed our economy and society gets, the less obvious suffering there is.

If you have a faith you might ask why God seems to save the worst for those that have the least?

Could it be worth also asking God if it is They who are causing the suffering, or the counterpart, Satan? :-)

many ppl run to blame god over these factors. Blame god for the Tsunami, Earthquakes, hurricanes etc. many seem to forget that there is an evil force that is free to reak havoc on the earth. Satan

another way of looking at world suffering might be to add that perhaps the disasters we have had this year are a warning from God. A shocker to see how easily life can be lost?
And to add that worse could happen if we don;t shape our ideas up?

Another thing people seem to forget is that WE don't own this Planet. It is on loan to us. It is not ours to abuse as we do. As we continue to do.
Driving countless species to animal to extinction. Now i know ppl are working to save them, but its not the same is it.

Let me say now, i feel nothing but remorse for those who have suffered from the above mentioned this year, and indeed continue to suffer.

Al

[ink4-u]

well, said al i was just about to say that. this is a point that i try to get over all the time!

most people seem to think yes lets blame god, but christianity also has the Devil GOOD AND BAD. What is not to say the devil isn't the cause of all this, and god is there picking up the pieces making all these kind british people donate millions of pounds to rebuild the destruction caused by the devil?

[Cornish Steve]

Have you ever read the plaque at the top of Snowdon?

I have never been to Snowdon. What does the plaque say?

Regards

Dotty
I don't remember now. :) I haven't been there for such a long time. Maybe someone can track down the wording for me. I don't want to misquote.

[Cornish Steve]

Dotty, Hayles was asking it based on a theological perspective; i.e. why did it happen if there is a God?
If we all evolved from squat and there is no God, who cares about the tsunami? It was a statistical blip on an eternal radar. The fittest survived.

If, on the other hand, we feel love for others, can understand sympathy and empathy, and cry when we witness such horrific suffering, maybe there is more to it all.

[Cornish Steve]

The answer you will hear everytime, Hayles, is the freewill debate. Yet it prompts the question that if, by the Christian standard, God is omniscient (knowing everything, future/ present/past), why would God create such a world where such suffering can take place?
Maybe God didn't.

[Cornish Steve]

One thing I do find interesting is that when somehting bad really happens the interest in God suddenly goes through the roof!
"Wow, what beauty that person demonstrates. Isn't it amazing how we evolved to create such beauty."

"Wow, what a terrible disaster. How can God allow such as thing?"

It's all a bit one-sided.

[Cornish Steve]

You can say anything you like about God, his motives and his plans. It really doesn't matter because not one word of it can be backed by any evidence.
Guess who's going to be the contrarian? :)

If God exists outside of time and space, what is the only credible way he can demonstrate his existence to creatures that live within time and space? By conveying a message in such a way that proves he is outside of time, right? This is why prophecies are so important. There are hundreds of them. Some of them, with origins proved to be from antiquity, refer to future events and were shown to be accurate to the very day. While we cannot prove anything, it's quite logical to infer from this. You have to admit that it's quite impressive.

[Coding Monkey]

"Wow, what beauty that person demonstrates. Isn't it amazing how we evolved to create such beauty."

"Wow, what a terrible disaster. How can God allow such as thing?"

It's all a bit one-sided.

You've picked on one example that, as I was saying before, the atheist is far more unlikely to say. I for one wouldn't say it, as I have no belief in even the concept of God. The concept would arise as a matter of debate when pondering how the existence of this loving God can come about by those who have something to gain by asking the question. It is a redundant question for me to ask, as it holds no actual meaning to ponder how a non-existent entity (in my opinion) can allow anything.

[cjd]

If God exists outside of time and space, what is the only credible way he can demonstrate his existence to creatures that live within time and space? By conveying a message in such a way that proves he is outside of time, right? This is why prophecies are so important. There are hundreds of them. Some of them, with origins proved to be from antiquity, refer to future events and were shown to be accurate to the very day. While we cannot prove anything, it's quite logical to infer from this. You have to admit that it's quite impressive.

You'll not be surprised to hear that I'm not at all impressed.

God is God. If he existed and wished to demonstrate his existence he could do it a million ways that would leave no doubt in anyone's minds. Why choose "strange and mysterious ways" that don't prove anything?

[fastfences]

God is God. If he existed and wished to demonstrate his existence he could do it a million ways that would leave no doubt in anyone's minds.

Well why doesn't He? Surely He is aware of all the consternation and controversy surrounding Him? But why then do you say 'IF' He existed?

Cheers, Nigel

[Hayles]

He's probably edging his bets, like me :lol:

Don't want the big Guy to think I 'dissed' him (is that the word Urban?), if he's watching me.... :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Asteeleleith]

I tend to look at the evidence, from multiple straind of sources.

Let me ask you this
Do you not think there is more to you than just the bones, blood, and cells that all go together to make you up?
Do you not think it amazing that every person was created differently.

I have been related to members of the medical profession for too long to ignore the stories they tell about patients seeing nuns or angels before they die.
Or even seeing themselves rise from their own bodies, seeing ppl struggling to save them as they pass away.
Ok and we have also heard about the white light.

I have heard to much and spoken to too many ppl now to say all this is crap.
If you have the guts to doubt God as some of you do this is fine, but i for one would worry wen my day of judgement comes. This is the day you die, and u have to face up to all the things you did wrong. Deciding wether you are to pass into heaven or indeed to hell.

I do not believe ppl should pass onto hell purely for not believing, but all the evidence does make you wonder. See ppl i do not just believe blindly i have my reasons for believing.
Would u like to take that chance?

Al

[Coding Monkey]

If you have the guts to doubt God as some of you do this is fine, but i for one would worry wen my day of judgement comes. This is the day you die, and u have to face up to all the things you did wrong. Deciding wether you are to pass into heaven or indeed to hell.


Why is your day of judgement at death? Surely this would therefore assume that death has a purpose, and is not a cause of simple biology. Why must I be judged at that moment? Surely facing the things you did wrong whilst you were alive would make sense, and that would be a greater reason to change. Fear of God should never be your reason for alteration, and my judgement will be decided by my own guilt, not that "given" to me.

My pass will not be into heaven or hell, but into success or failure - deemed only by myself. All that you have said is the basis of extrapolation from common psychology into unknown, unprovable concepts.

[Cornish Steve]

If God exists outside of time and space, what is the only credible way he can demonstrate his existence to creatures that live within time and space? By conveying a message in such a way that proves he is outside of time, right? This is why prophecies are so important. There are hundreds of them. Some of them, with origins proved to be from antiquity, refer to future events and were shown to be accurate to the very day. While we cannot prove anything, it's quite logical to infer from this. You have to admit that it's quite impressive.

You'll not be surprised to hear that I'm not at all impressed.

God is God. If he existed and wished to demonstrate his existence he could do it a million ways that would leave no doubt in anyone's minds. Why choose "strange and mysterious ways" that don't prove anything?
There's nothing mysterious about some of them. One prophecy, for example, claims that Israel's messiah would enter Jerusalem 'seventy weeks of years' after Darius declared a particular edict. Someone in the 1910s did the calculation and figured out that the date corresponds to what we know as Palm Sunday. I'd say this is rather precise.

This is just one of hundreds of instances. If you look into them carefully, they really are quite impressive.

[Asteeleleith]

If you have the guts to doubt God as some of you do this is fine, but i for one would worry wen my day of judgement comes. This is the day you die, and u have to face up to all the things you did wrong. Deciding wether you are to pass into heaven or indeed to hell.


Why is your day of judgement at death? Surely this would therefore assume that death has a purpose, and is not a cause of simple biology. Why must I be judged at that moment? Surely facing the things you did wrong whilst you were alive would make sense, and that would be a greater reason to change. Fear of God should never be your reason for alteration, and my judgement will be decided by my own guilt, not that "given" to me.

My pass will not be into heaven or hell, but into success or failure - deemed only by myself. All that you have said is the basis of extrapolation from common psychology into unknown, unprovable concepts.

All i can say is one day one of us wil be proven right, the other wrong :-)

Al

[cjd]

There's nothing mysterious about some of them.
One prophecy, for example, claims that Israel's messiah would enter Jerusalem 'seventy weeks of years' after Darius declared a particular edict. Someone in the 1910s did the calculation and figured out that the date corresponds to what we know as Palm Sunday. I'd say this is rather precise.

This is just one of hundreds of instances. If you look into them carefully, they really are quite impressive.

The debunking of prophecy is a wonderful subject that I'd happily take up in another thread - it's quite simply amazing how things written before the fact, which were utterly incomprehensible at the time of prophesy, become explicable in hindsight. It's phenomenon called shoehorning.

Wikepedia Definition:

"Shoehorning is a ploy alleged by skeptics to be used by psychics as a way to make it sound like their prophecies or those of earlier prophets had come true. The process involves taking an earlier prophecy and attempting to affix a current event to it, with the event apparently "fulfilling" the prophecy, even though this has been realized after the fact. Shoehorned prophecies usually take vague prophecies and twist them to "mean" the event in question even if the evidence for the connection is shaky. Also, many psychics, such as James van Praagh, are accused of stating after the fact that they had predicted the event, even if evidence proves otherwise, also being an example of retroactive clairvoyance.

Some famous shoehorned prophecies include:

* The Bible Code
* Many prophecies of Nostradamus
* Other September 11 prophecies, particularly by van Praagh, Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson
* Prophecy of the Popes"

Anyway my original point was that if God wanted to make it clear to us beyond doubt of his existence he would do so - it wouldn't be hard at all would it? Even I could be convinced in minutes. Just has to pop down here, stick a second moon in orbit around the earth for a couple of days or whatever it takes.

Why does it always require guesswork and belief?

The rational man has to conclude that he doesn't want to prove anything to us (so it's not likely he's going to leave cryptic clues everywhere) or he doesn't exist - at least in the sort of way that the religious believe in him.

[Cornish Steve]

There's nothing mysterious about some of them.
One prophecy, for example, claims that Israel's messiah would enter Jerusalem 'seventy weeks of years' after Darius declared a particular edict. Someone in the 1910s did the calculation and figured out that the date corresponds to what we know as Palm Sunday. I'd say this is rather precise.

This is just one of hundreds of instances. If you look into them carefully, they really are quite impressive.

The debunking of prophecy is a wonderful subject that I'd happily take up in another thread - it's quite simply amazing how things written before the fact, which were utterly incomprehensible at the time of prophesy, become explicable in hindsight. It's phenomenon called shoehorning.

Wikepedia Definition:

"Shoehorning is a ploy alleged by skeptics to be used by psychics as a way to make it sound like their prophecies or those of earlier prophets had come true. The process involves taking an earlier prophecy and attempting to affix a current event to it, with the event apparently "fulfilling" the prophecy, even though this has been realized after the fact. Shoehorned prophecies usually take vague prophecies and twist them to "mean" the event in question even if the evidence for the connection is shaky. Also, many psychics, such as James van Praagh, are accused of stating after the fact that they had predicted the event, even if evidence proves otherwise, also being an example of retroactive clairvoyance.

Some famous shoehorned prophecies include:

* The Bible Code
* Many prophecies of Nostradamus
* Other September 11 prophecies, particularly by van Praagh, Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson
* Prophecy of the Popes"

Anyway my original point was that if God wanted to make it clear to us beyond doubt of his existence he would do so - it wouldn't be hard at all would it? Even I could be convinced in minutes. Just has to pop down here, stick a second moon in orbit around the earth for a couple of days or whatever it takes.

Why does it always require guesswork and belief?

The rational man has to conclude that he doesn't want to prove anything to us (so it's not likely he's going to leave cryptic clues everywhere) or he doesn't exist - at least in the sort of way that the religious believe in him.
You're dismissing something without taking the time to look carefully. If you wish, let me quote this one specific prophecy (proved to have been written BC) and you can calculate dates yourself. You're also welcome to come up with alternative meanings if you think the wording is unclear.

I'm not trying to promote any agenda here. While I admit that thousands of people have made their fortunes by guessing the fortunes of others, or coming up with mysterious predictions that could mean anything, there are some prophecies in ancient texts that are incredibly precise. They are worth looking at.

[cjd]

You're dismissing something without taking the time to look carefully. If you wish, let me quote this one specific prophecy (proved to have been written BC) and you can calculate dates yourself. You're also welcome to come up with alternative meanings if you think the wording is unclear.

I'm not trying to promote any agenda here. While I admit that thousands of people have made their fortunes by guessing the fortunes of others, or coming up with mysterious predictions that could mean anything, there are some prophecies in ancient texts that are incredibly precise. They are worth looking at.

Fine make another thread on prophecy; happy to kick it around.

But the point we are discussing is more general

Anyway my original point was that if God wanted to make it clear to us beyond doubt of his existence he would do so - it wouldn't be hard at all would it? Even I could be convinced in minutes. Just has to pop down here, stick a second moon in orbit around the earth for a couple of days or whatever it takes.

Why does it always require guesswork and belief?

The rational man has to conclude that he doesn't want to prove anything to us (so it's not likely he's going to leave cryptic clues everywhere) or he doesn't exist - at least in the sort of way that the religious believe in him.

[Cornish Steve]

To quote another source, some people will never be convinced.

One religious leader performed miracles and then the ultimate act: being raised from the dead. What more could he do? Almost all of his close friends and many thousands of other eye witnesses were killed for believing in his power, which goes a long way to prove that he was not faking it. How many people take the time today to look seriously into the claims? Because they don't fit well with the philosophy of the day, they're casually dismissed.

As for compassion, let me follow up on someone else's point. Let's imagine for the moment that the world is broken (there's enough evidence to draw this conclusion). Let's also assume that its creator is not broken. In order not to become part of the brokenness, there is only so much that the creator can do. The most important thing, however, is to provide the means for repair.

In this light, natural disasters are going to happen and are a result of brokenness (not just personal, but universal). The result is that some people lose their lives a few years before they would lose them anyway (I don't mean to sound callous in writing this). The bigger question is this: Is everyone prepared for what happens next?

[cjd]

As for compassion, let me follow up on someone else's point. Let's imagine for the moment that the world is broken (there's enough evidence to draw this conclusion). Let's also assume that its creator is not broken. In order not to become part of the brokenness, there is only so much that the creator can do.

You seem to be saying that this God is imperfect and not all powerful. He made a flawed (broken) product and can't fix it. That's not the God I was taught about at school.

The bigger question is this: Is everyone prepared for what happens next?

You big tease; go on tell us!

[CG Effect]

Their is no god!

[freecybermag]

Anyway my original point was that if God wanted to make it clear to us beyond doubt of his existence he would do so - it wouldn't be hard at all would it? Even I could be convinced in minutes. Just has to pop down here, stick a second moon in orbit around the earth for a couple of days or whatever it takes.

Why does it always require guesswork and belief?

The rational man has to conclude that he doesn't want to prove anything to us (so it's not likely he's going to leave cryptic clues everywhere) or he doesn't exist - at least in the sort of way that the religious believe in him.

OK let's say for a moment you are God. You've created a world where you place little people. Years go by and the little people haven't seen you for a while and then a little man turns and say "Hey you, the person who has given us all these wonderful things, I have no love for you, Show me who you are because I don't beleive in you, your a fake, a fony and people who beleive in you are stupid" Would you show yourself to make that little man happy or would you weep thinking that the very thing you created has no love for you. I'd crush you like a rock but God is more forgiving than that. He let's you say it but he will not bow down to your command.

[cjd]

OK let's say for a moment you are God. You've created a world where you place little people. Years go by and the little people haven't seen you for a while and then a little man turns and say "Hey you, the person who has given us all these wonderful things, I have no love for you, Show me who you are because I don't beleive in you, your a fake, a fony and people who beleive in you are stupid" Would you show yourself to make that little man happy or would you weep thinking that the very thing you created has no love for you. I'd crush you like a rock but God is more forgiving than that. He let's you say it but he will not bow down to your command.

God is Dad :wink:

Well I don't think an all seeing, all knowing all powerful being would behave like a selfish errant father do you?

If a mum and dad disappeared leaving a baby to survive in the nasty cruel world they created just before they pissed off for a few thousand years, you probably wouldn't expect the grown up baby to have too much respect for their parents when they returned many years later expecting gratitued.

Anyway, that's all nonsense, we're just assuming our emotions have any relevance to this god thing.

[freecybermag]

God is Dad

Well I don't think an all seeing, all knowing all powerful being would behave like a selfish errant father do you?

If a mum and dad disappeared leaving a baby to survive in the nasty cruel world they created just before they pissed off for a few thousand years, you probably wouldn't expect the grown up baby to have too much respect for their parents when they returned many years later expecting gratitued.

Anyway, that's all nonsense, we're just assuming our emotions have any relevance to this god thing.


But he hasn't left us. He is here all the time. It's us that's left him.

Let's answer the question you raised earlier though about him showing himself. Sounds easy don't it, Or is it?
How best should he show himslef, shall he come as a mortal? If you saw a man in the street that shouted I am God, would you then bow at his feet and beg for forgiveness? No didn't think so. So we can assume that if he came as a mortal he would not be believed. How about a mortal and then performed miracles. If you saw someone turn water into wine would you then bow down and beg for forgiveness? No you'd walk away and say that it was a very good trick. So we can assume that showing himself as a mortal and performing miracles won't work.
What about if you saw a figure in the SKY and spoke, not only would a few people have heart attacks but some would say it was a trick, some would say that it's not the God they worship and so Christians woudl fight against Muslims, Jews against Hindus etc. People would die for their beliefs and so there would be uproar and unrest in the world. All religions beleive in a God so does it really matter which one is right and which one is wrong. All God wants is for you to love him. So we can assume that a public appearance is out of the question. Let's ask the question again, "Why doesn't God show himself?"

[cjd]

I just keep thinking that this God guy must be terribly thick (can't figure out a way of convincing me he exists so he doesn't bother) and a bit emotionally retarded (wants me to love him even though he can't be arsed to pop round and see me from time to time)

[Coding Monkey]

And if God can do anything, why can't be just love himself? (Not in that way, Nigel!) Why does he need over 6 billion people? Does he need all of us? Does that mean he wasn't loved enough before now with all the population, or that his greed will result in more people so he can feel more love?

[freecybermag]

God Bless us every one :D

[Cornish Steve]

You seem to be saying that this God is imperfect and not all powerful. He made a flawed (broken) product and can't fix it. That's not the God I was taught about at school.
This is one of the age-old questions: If God is all powerful, he can do anything, right?

The answer is a resounding "no". Any intelligent being can only do what's consistent with its character. If God is not broken and mankind is, there is only so much that even an all-powerful God can do that is consistent with his character.

While most religions believe that man can fix his brokenness by doing more good things than bad things (a set of scales, if you will), the Christian religion claims that man can do nothing to be fixed. He's a hopeless case.

So, if God cannot do anything that contradicts his character, and if man can do nothing to fix his brokenness, things look rather bleak. It's from that point that the story really begins...

[Cornish Steve]

Well I don't think an all seeing, all knowing all powerful being would behave like a selfish errant father do you?

If a mum and dad disappeared leaving a baby to survive in the nasty cruel world they created just before they pissed off for a few thousand years, you probably wouldn't expect the grown up baby to have too much respect for their parents when they returned many years later expecting gratitued.
But what if the parents created the perfect environment for the child, the child rebels, demonstrates a complete lack of love for the parents, screws the place up beyond repair, so that the relationship is broken - and then wonders why the parents don't show their faces any more?

[Cornish Steve]

Let's ask the question again, "Why doesn't God show himself?"
What if he has? What if some people have actually looked into his eyes? Would you really and truly believe it?

[creospace]

It's from that point that the story really begins...

And what a story it is, the greatest story every told some say!?

[CG Effect]

Made up story created by people with no understanding of science.

[freecybermag]

I also fail to believe in religions we have now. I do however beleive in God.
My beleif is that he created the gases and elements that made the Sun and then would explode to create our world. Is that plausable? :D

[CG Effect]

Catholic church proved a long time ago the big bang was the real god creation, with their own scientists. Funny how they like to change the story as soon as scentists discover what really happened. What I don't get is what made the big bang their was nothing not even time or anything before that. Some might say god created the big bang but who created him?

[Cornish Steve]

Catholic church proved a long time ago the big bang was the real god creation, with their own scientists. Funny how they like to change the story as soon as scentists discover what really happened. What I don't get is what made the big bang their was nothing not even time or anything before that. Some might say god created the big bang but who created him?
As creatures bound within the dimension of time, it's difficult for us to answer the question. If we could travel in the time dimension, however, we might suddenly see a different perceptive on this and the answer would be obvious.

[cjd]

As creatures bound within the dimension of time, it's difficult for us to answer the question. If we could travel in the time dimension, however, we might suddenly see a different perceptive on this and the answer would be obvious.

The truly wonderful thing about God is that you can make up the most awful twoddle about him and no-one can say anything about it except it's an interesting story that can not be supported by any evidence at all.

[Cornish Steve]

As creatures bound within the dimension of time, it's difficult for us to answer the question. If we could travel in the time dimension, however, we might suddenly see a different perceptive on this and the answer would be obvious.

The truly wonderful thing about God is that you can make up the most awful twoddle about him and no-one can say anything about it except it's an interesting story that can not be supported by any evidence at all.
Now this is an area in which the scientific method cannot apply, I agree! However, to be fair, I'm not making anything up. I choose to believe certain ancient writings. You can claim that they are made up; in reply, I would point out that their credibility comes from prophecies being fulfilled with remarkable accuracy. This subject is always going to be a sensitive one, so I promise not to be dogmatic on the issue.

[cjd]

I would point out that their credibility comes from prophecies being fulfilled with remarkable accuracy. This subject is always going to be a sensitive one, so I promise not to be dogmatic on the issue.

I don't find it the least bit sensitive, just daft. Please feel free to be as dogmatic as you like :-)

Which particular prophecy would you like to fight about?