Newspaper ad

[G. Lasagne]

This subject again :eek: i know but i still have not got it right.

if you look on my site you will see 4 boiler offers http://www.gasangelheating.co.uk/new-boiler-offers.htm

I have trialled the duo-tec and compact and now im trying the ideal logic plus offer in my local paper, i have tried the comapct and duo-tec for 4 weeks each and the logic has been in for 1 week and recieved 0 calls.

Now the best value boiler is the ideal logic plus, 5 year warranty, Band A and cheaper than the Baxi duo-tec which is band A and only comes with a 2 year warranty.

The baxi ad so far has done the best, although it still did not do brilliantly, however i have redesigned the new ads, so doing the offer agian may yield better results.

Do you think the Baxi ad done better because of the name Baxi, even though it is more expensive and has less of a warranty.

I would say the baxi ad was the worst designed ad out of all 3 so i can only assume its the name that was selling it, however i did have the same ad a week previous, which i got for free that ad was down as a reader offer and although in a poor position in the paper out performed all the ads.

I know you should test the ads but its expensive and i have given them all 4 weeks.

which would you most likely call?(prices are not actual prices)

Baxi platinum band a 5 year warranty £1900
Baxi Duo-tec band a 2 year warranty £1700
Ideal Logic plus band a 5 year warranty £1650


The ads can be found here

ideal logic ad http://www.megaupload.com/?d=DB9N1ZPB
Vokera ad http://www.megaupload.com/?d=ZVWKW4DN
Baxi duo-tec http://www.megaupload.com/?d=UUQAMUWB

Baxi duo-tec reader offer was basically the same as the one above except it had "exclusive guardian readers offer" at the top which obviously sold it well, but im not able to get the same ad again.

Any feedback is massively appreciated:D

[PDC]

It depends on the numbers you are talking about.

[G. Lasagne]

It depends on the numbers you are talking about.

I assume you mean the number of calls?

i dont have exact figures but as a guide(per week) i would say

baxi (reader offer) 6
baxi normal ad 4
vokera 3
ideal 0 (but only been in one week and it is near christmas)

Another idea i had was to make it a generic ad for all the offers

Something like:

HE BOILER OFFERS -

we currently have 4 fantastic boiler offers
from brand names such as Baxi,Ideal and Vokera,
there are no hidden charges and all of our packages include
the following:

etc etc

Price from £1380(inc vat)
visit: http://www.gasangelheating.co.uk
for full details.
or call 0191 289 3464


Or something to that effect?

what do you think

[VeitSchenk]

hey there,

here a quick (ok, ok, got a bit lengthy) analysis of the ideal logic offer (can't be bothered to download the others, see the PS)

visually, two things jump out: the headline 'BAND A IDEAL LOGIC PLUS BOILER OFFER' and the price of 1633.00.

my question to you: how many people are actively looking for 'BAND A IDEAL LOGIC PLUS BOILER OFFER'?

and how many are currently looking for 1633.00?

probably not that many! (your numbers suggest you didn't have that many calls)

always think of this statistic: currently, we're bombarded with around 3000 marketing messages a day (if you include telephone, TV, space-ads, ...) -- so we're filtering out as much as possible and only let in the stuff that's currently on our minds.

It's all got to do with a little part of the brain called the reticular activating system (RAS) which is just a fancy way of saying "remember last time you bought a new car and suddenly that exact model was everywhere?" -- the stuff that's on your mind is what you see around you.

so, if 1633.00 is not on people's mind, they won't be looking for it. Similarly for the 'band a ideal logic ...' phrase: unless it's on people's minds, they won't see it -- my guess is your ad isn't the only one on the page, so they jump straight to the next.

here's what I teach in my sales-seminars: the biggest mistake most business owners make is to assume that their prospects have all the information they need and now all they're doing is shopping around for the best price/deal/provider.

that's exactly what your ad does: it assumes people know that the Ideal Logic is what they want, it solves their problem and now all they want is to find out who is going to give them the best deal -- you even mention that there are no fees for the credit card...

here's an insight from major studies around this topic: take any reasonably large audience and ask them how many are currently looking for product X (where X could really be anything, unless it's "a sandwich" at lunchtime), and on average you'll get a 3% response -- only 3% are actively looking for the thing you're trying to sell.

The other 97% either have no interest at all OR they're at a different stage of information gathering: 1) up to now they've lived under a tree and didn't even know that heating exists 2) they know that boilers are excellent for heating 3) now they start comparing different methods of heating 4) they've decided on a boiler and are now comparing the different types, models and makes 5) finally they've made up their mind, after trawling the forums they've decided to get the ideal logic with 5 years warranty.

and only then are they shopping around for price.

So, back to your ad: as you're saying not that many people want them right now, let's assume some of them may want one in the future.
my question to you then is: what do you want them to learn/remember from this ad? -- at some point in the future, when they've gone through that whole cycle described above, you want them to remember you, right?

will they remember GasAngel? will they remember the phone-number? the website? is there something on the ad that is so memorable that it's the first thing in their minds when they think about "the best boiler offer"?

you've got many good elements in the ad, but could certainly be improved.
if you've got 'serious investment' type products like this,


Veit


PS: sidenote: from a user-perspective this megaupload thing is a pile of sh**e, let's me wait for 45secs before the download can start, then opens all kinds of poker-ad pages. as you're asking me to look at your ads, please make it easier for me (ok, that sounds a little ar**y, not meant to be;-)

[G. Lasagne]

hey there,

here a quick (ok, ok, got a bit lengthy) analysis of the ideal logic offer (can't be bothered to download the others, see the PS)

visually, two things jump out: the headline 'BAND A IDEAL LOGIC PLUS BOILER OFFER' and the price of 1633.00.

my question to you: how many people are actively looking for 'BAND A IDEAL LOGIC PLUS BOILER OFFER'?

and how many are currently looking for 1633.00?

probably not that many! (your numbers suggest you didn't have that many calls)

always think of this statistic: currently, we're bombarded with around 3000 marketing messages a day (if you include telephone, TV, space-ads, ...) -- so we're filtering out as much as possible and only let in the stuff that's currently on our minds.

It's all got to do with a little part of the brain called the reticular activating system (RAS) which is just a fancy way of saying "remember last time you bought a new car and suddenly that exact model was everywhere?" -- the stuff that's on your mind is what you see around you.

so, if 1633.00 is not on people's mind, they won't be looking for it. Similarly for the 'band a ideal logic ...' phrase: unless it's on people's minds, they won't see it -- my guess is your ad isn't the only one on the page, so they jump straight to the next.

here's what I teach in my sales-seminars: the biggest mistake most business owners make is to assume that their prospects have all the information they need and now all they're doing is shopping around for the best price/deal/provider.

that's exactly what your ad does: it assumes people know that the Ideal Logic is what they want, it solves their problem and now all they want is to find out who is going to give them the best deal -- you even mention that there are no fees for the credit card...

here's an insight from major studies around this topic: take any reasonably large audience and ask them how many are currently looking for product X (where X could really be anything, unless it's "a sandwich" at lunchtime), and on average you'll get a 3% response -- only 3% are actively looking for the thing you're trying to sell.

The other 97% either have no interest at all OR they're at a different stage of information gathering: 1) up to now they've lived under a tree and didn't even know that heating exists 2) they know that boilers are excellent for heating 3) now they start comparing different methods of heating 4) they've decided on a boiler and are now comparing the different types, models and makes 5) finally they've made up their mind, after trawling the forums they've decided to get the ideal logic with 5 years warranty.

and only then are they shopping around for price.

So, back to your ad: as you're saying not that many people want them right now, let's assume some of them may want one in the future.
my question to you then is: what do you want them to learn/remember from this ad? -- at some point in the future, when they've gone through that whole cycle described above, you want them to remember you, right?

will they remember GasAngel? will they remember the phone-number? the website? is there something on the ad that is so memorable that it's the first thing in their minds when they think about "the best boiler offer"?

you've got many good elements in the ad, but could certainly be improved.
if you've got 'serious investment' type products like this,


Veit


PS: sidenote: from a user-perspective this megaupload thing is a pile of sh**e, let's me wait for 45secs before the download can start, then opens all kinds of poker-ad pages. as you're asking me to look at your ads, please make it easier for me (ok, that sounds a little ar**y, not meant to be;-)


Wow, thanks it all makes sense.

There is another ad on the page before which is £600 more expensive and they are booked out until febuary (this was in september), and there title is "Do you need a new condensing boiler?" which falls in line with what your saying.

Surely the price has to be stated, what would you suggest putting instead?

p.s sorry about the megaupload thing, but thanks for the great advice.

Dave

[VeitSchenk]

oh, absolutely, if it's an offer, the price needs to be in it. (the big question is: does it have to be an offer -- your competitors appear to be asking a different question)

regarding what exactly to put in it: it all depends on your target audience, what they're looking for, what they expect: it may or may not sound obvious: but not everyone is shopping for the lowest price. Some find it far more interesting that it's a quality installation that doesn't blow up over the holidays. Others are totally into the hunky guy who installs the boiler. Whatever it is your target audience wants, that's what you want to address in the ad.
and yes: I know you want *everyone* who wants a boiler to come to you. But you cannot communicate that in one ad, you need to speak to them separately.

I think you've got plenty of info to re-design your ads, if you want to book a consultation with me, PM me

the best of luck

[Tw Installations]

hey there,

here a quick (ok, ok, got a bit lengthy) analysis of the ideal logic offer (can't be bothered to download the others, see the PS)

visually, two things jump out: the headline 'BAND A IDEAL LOGIC PLUS BOILER OFFER' and the price of 1633.00.

my question to you: how many people are actively looking for 'BAND A IDEAL LOGIC PLUS BOILER OFFER'?

and how many are currently looking for 1633.00?

probably not that many! (your numbers suggest you didn't have that many calls)

always think of this statistic: currently, we're bombarded with around 3000 marketing messages a day (if you include telephone, TV, space-ads, ...) -- so we're filtering out as much as possible and only let in the stuff that's currently on our minds.

It's all got to do with a little part of the brain called the reticular activating system (RAS) which is just a fancy way of saying "remember last time you bought a new car and suddenly that exact model was everywhere?" -- the stuff that's on your mind is what you see around you.

so, if 1633.00 is not on people's mind, they won't be looking for it. Similarly for the 'band a ideal logic ...' phrase: unless it's on people's minds, they won't see it -- my guess is your ad isn't the only one on the page, so they jump straight to the next.

here's what I teach in my sales-seminars: the biggest mistake most business owners make is to assume that their prospects have all the information they need and now all they're doing is shopping around for the best price/deal/provider.

that's exactly what your ad does: it assumes people know that the Ideal Logic is what they want, it solves their problem and now all they want is to find out who is going to give them the best deal -- you even mention that there are no fees for the credit card...

here's an insight from major studies around this topic: take any reasonably large audience and ask them how many are currently looking for product X (where X could really be anything, unless it's "a sandwich" at lunchtime), and on average you'll get a 3% response -- only 3% are actively looking for the thing you're trying to sell.

The other 97% either have no interest at all OR they're at a different stage of information gathering: 1) up to now they've lived under a tree and didn't even know that heating exists 2) they know that boilers are excellent for heating 3) now they start comparing different methods of heating 4) they've decided on a boiler and are now comparing the different types, models and makes 5) finally they've made up their mind, after trawling the forums they've decided to get the ideal logic with 5 years warranty.

and only then are they shopping around for price.

So, back to your ad: as you're saying not that many people want them right now, let's assume some of them may want one in the future.
my question to you then is: what do you want them to learn/remember from this ad? -- at some point in the future, when they've gone through that whole cycle described above, you want them to remember you, right?

will they remember GasAngel? will they remember the phone-number? the website? is there something on the ad that is so memorable that it's the first thing in their minds when they think about "the best boiler offer"?

you've got many good elements in the ad, but could certainly be improved.
if you've got 'serious investment' type products like this,


Veit


PS: sidenote: from a user-perspective this megaupload thing is a pile of sh**e, let's me wait for 45secs before the download can start, then opens all kinds of poker-ad pages. as you're asking me to look at your ads, please make it easier for me (ok, that sounds a little ar**y, not meant to be;-)

Fantasic advice, you given me a couple of new ideas to work on.

I ran an advert in the paper about 7 months ago and a woman called me only last week, she had kept me in mind all this time and has done an internet search to make sure she got me.

I have been trying to figure out exactly why she came to me and this post has made the answer clear for me.

Thanks
Tommy

[oldeagleeye]

Isn't all this a bit old hat OP. I looked into boilers mainly because the property concerned didn't have access to gas and thought that expensive oil was the only option but what did I find Air Pumps 75% cheaper to run than any other energy source.

Air pumps that can still work down to minus 20c. That can be plumbed into underfloor heating or just run traditional radiators. I think that you need to keep an eye on your industry buddy in this eco friendly world everyone is into.

Robert

[Steve Cool]

Isn't all this a bit old hat OP. I looked into boilers mainly because the property concerned didn't have access to gas and thought that expensive oil was the only option but what did I find Air Pumps 75% cheaper to run than any other energy source.

Air pumps that can still work down to minus 20c. That can be plumbed into underfloor heating or just run traditional radiators. I think that you need to keep an eye on your industry buddy in this eco friendly world everyone is into.

Robert

......and an approximate 20 year payback on capital cost buddy. Give me a cheap gas boiler until it runs out, any day buddy.

Steve

ps, I hate the term of endearment "BUDDY"

[oldeagleeye]

My post re buddy wasn't addressed to you Stevie boy and you are wrong. Air pumps are no more expensive than the gas boilers the OP mentioned. Immediate savings of 75% a year then.

[G. Lasagne]

My post re buddy wasn't addressed to you Stevie boy and you are wrong. Air pumps are no more expensive than the gas boilers the OP mentioned. Immediate savings of 75% a year then.

I asume you fit air pumps then, as you seem to be questioning our resident aircon and refrigeration expert, so you must be an expert yourself, what do you do?

Its all fine and dandy BUDDY saying do this and do that, but we as domestic heating engineers dont have the skill sets to fit air pumps or solar panels etc,
and im not going to offer a service to my customers that i am not entirely happy fitting, bad rep and all that.

I am looking at renewable sources for the future, but i am far too busy fitting condensing boilers which by the way are still by far the biggest selling source of heating and hot water.

I live in the north east and i have NEVER once seen an air pump in a domestic property NEVER, so thats the market next to ZERO, i live and breathe the industry being my job and all, so im quite aware of what customers want and that is still condensing boilers, although i do accept things are changing all be it slowly thereis still at least another 10 good years left of fitting boilers, after that then sure solar panels and air pumps it is, underfloor heating by the way is ****e time consuming expensive and prone to breaking down.

The comment "boilers is old hat" is probably the most ridiculous i have ever read on ukbf, its like saying too audi to scrap the new a4 and concentrate on electric cars.

Never mind BUDDY;)

[G. Lasagne]

Fantasic advice, you given me a couple of new ideas to work on.

I ran an advert in the paper about 7 months ago and a woman called me only last week, she had kept me in mind all this time and has done an internet search to make sure she got me.

I have been trying to figure out exactly why she came to me and this post has made the answer clear for me.

Thanks
Tommy

any chance at seeing the ad, i will show you mine if you show me yours;)

[LicensedToTrade]

Isn't all this a bit old hat OP. I looked into boilers mainly because the property concerned didn't have access to gas and thought that expensive oil was the only option but what did I find Air Pumps 75% cheaper to run than any other energy source.

Air pumps that can still work down to minus 20c. That can be plumbed into underfloor heating or just run traditional radiators. I think that you need to keep an eye on your industry buddy in this eco friendly world everyone is into.

Robert

Quite right. If any of you plumbers are interested in renewable energy products then please visit our website www.greenworks-energy.co.uk

This is an area that Graham/Jewson are really leading the field in right now. No other merchant has invested the amount of money and time into increasing awareness. We offer professional training courses for installers across the country. The next 5-10 years will be a busy time for renewable installers as the demand increases, especially with new build companies like Persimmon installing solar panels on the vast majority of their new sites.

Drop me a PM and I will have a Greenworks Product Guide sent to you, alternatively you can request it through the site and sign up to the newsletter.

[oldeagleeye]

Hey guys. I didn't mean to cause offence but I have to say that I am not an expert on heating - I am a potential customer and not a Greenie either. However Air Heat pumps which cost less than a traditional boiler and offer saving of 75% on running costs are the route that I am going.

There is also the fact that at any time now Britain could be held to ransom by the Russians again. They have already restricted our gas supplies twice before resulting in almost a 100% hike in prices each time.

You guys may well bury your head in the sand then for the next 10 years and frankly I have never heard of such an absurd statement as 'we don't know how to install these things'.

Try a screwdriver - 2 screws and a couple of compression joints.:eek:

[UKSBD]

I've been of the building for about 4 years now, but got asked by my old
bosses to go in, mark a new house out and oversee the set up.
It's using ground source heat pumps, so doesn't even have a boiler.

No one knows anything about it, so I dare say a specialist firm will have
to be bought in, after looking online there are only about 150 certified
installers, bet they will be making a killing.

[Tej]

Guess Oldeagleeye is not just a pretty face:)

One should not throw ideas out.. just because....

Oftentimes.. it pays to take something on board.. digest and act if neccessary..

It does pay..

[oldeagleeye]

Any refrigeration engineer can install an air or ground pump because that is all it is a fridge but which works in reverse. I also checked out those ground heat pumps. Abolutely fantastic. It works a bit like underfloor hearing. You just bury some loops of plastic pipe in the garden and the pump draws the heat from the ground even if there is snow or frost on top.

BTW. Saw a 14KW air heat pump. Cost £1895 fitted anywhere in Britain. No apologies for mentioning that as I got handbaged and the OP did begin this thread by asking about competitive deals.

[Steve Cool]

My post re buddy wasn't addressed to you Stevie boy and you are wrong. Air pumps are no more expensive than the gas boilers the OP mentioned. Immediate savings of 75% a year then.



BTW. Saw a 14KW air heat pump. Cost £1895 fitted anywhere in Britain. No apologies for mentioning that as I got handbaged and the OP did begin this thread by asking about competitive deals.

Right so that will do the ground floor of my house and maybe the hot water, throw in a 10kw one to heat upstairs call that £3650.
I can buy a 24kw boiler for £600.

Now I'm not going to do the sums, but it's a fair lengthy payback isn't it?

The question that also arises is one that was spoken about in another thread regarding call out charges. Who are you going to call in event of a breakdown? No disrespect to any heating engineers but your average gas man will take the cover of a heat pump and run a mile. If the problem is not with the water circuit, they are stumped. So you have to call a fridge man, and we charge call out fee's. You really do not want a gas fitter used to working with 3psi pressure tinkering with an R410a discharge pipe running at 600psi, heaven forbid they cut into a CO2 one at 1500psi.:eek:

In my opinion the whole heat pump market at the moment is for either rich greenies or builders playing the "green card" trying to get planning permission on land otherwise undeveloped due to planning restrictions.

I think heat pump boilers will take off and be a viable alternative to combustion heating one day, but they need to come down in price a hell of a lot yet.

Steve

[oldeagleeye]

I am afaraid we have to agree to diagree on this one Steve. I would point out however that

1) A Boiler may cost you £600 quid but what is the bottom line fitted.

2) You ignored my mention that twice now our gas supplies have been held top ransom by the Russians resulting in a 100% hike in prices.

3) There are millions of homeowners in rural areas that don't even have the gas option. Oil can be 3 times more expensive as can calor gas.

4) You obviously have a vested interest in your replies. Fair enough but if you think like our politicians do that the public are technology retarded you are wrong. You can buy a decent wall mounted air-con unit now from B & Q for under £250 quid. Many dealers are charging wll over £1,000. Fitted free and I should bloody well think so.:eek:

No Tey. I am not just a pretty face. At 60 I sill have a damned good head of hair and all my own teeth too.:D

Robert

[Tej]

No Tey. I am not just a pretty face. At 60 I sill have a damned good head of hair and all my own teeth too.:D

Robert

True.. I did mean that you had a lot between the ears too:)

and I do believe about the hair and teeth!

More than what I have:D

[Steve Cool]

BTW. Saw a 14KW air heat pump. Cost £1895 fitted anywhere in Britain.

Out of interest could you point me in the direction of where you have seen this offer?, as that is very, very cheap.
Is it a contained system or split system with a water module. What brand is it?
I would pay nearly double that figure for a high quality Japanese system. Just for the equipment.

Steve

[G. Lasagne]

I bet its the old FROM £1895 and ends up being 3 times that.

How can you possibly comment on the installation of a heat pump being easy or hard is beyond me, how many have you fitted???? None is the answer so please dont tell me its a couple of screw and a compression fitting. I hear it all the time, "how has it took you 2 days to change the boiler, all you do is take the old one off the wall and stick the new one", YOU DONT HAVE A CLUE"

I would not dare tell somebody there wrong when i have no experience whatsoever in that field its insulting.

If steve says it is much more expensive to fit a heat pump, then its more expensive to fit a heat pump, end of, he should know.

Listen carefully: I talk to 100s of customers every month and i have never been asked for a heat pump all i get asked for is codensing boilers, how many heating customers do you talk too, i have done the market research, i live the market.

If there comes a time when i think that solar/heat pumps are suddenly in demand, then i will train my staff acordingly and no doubt will be back on ukbf asking for advice on an ad for heat pump offers.

But i know that time is not now, how? because its my fooking job.

What do you do for a living? apart from preach your PERSONAL views as fact.

[LicensedToTrade]

He may not be in a position to comment on the demand for ground source heat pumps, but I am. Without wanting to blow my own trumpet I would argue that there is no one on this forum who is in a better position than me to comment on the demand for renewables. If you think you know more about it than I do I'd like to hear why.

A very brief overview of the market for renewables is as such.

Low demand for domestic customers wishing to upgrade their existing combi boilers to a renewable alternative. (High initial layout, long repayment period, reduced government incentives due to already having higher efficiency boiler system)

Low/Medium demand for domestic customers wishing to upgrade their existing system boilers to a renewable alternative. (Same High initial layout with long repayment period, but greater value of government funding available due to existing inefficient heating system and the fact that they will need to be upgrading to a combi system in the near future anyway)

Medium/High demand from developers (e.g. Persimmon) A great deal of new build properties are being fitted primarily with solar panel systems (photovoltaic/evacuated tube) or Ground/Air source heat pumps as standard. This is due to the lower cost that such developers can source the goods at, the fact that it can be built into the overall cost of a house and as such be absorbed into the buyers mortgage, and attracts grants from the government. This also helps developers meet new regs quite easily.

In summary. New Build - Demand High, Domestic upgrades - Demand not so high.

[Steve Cool]

He may not be in a position to comment on the demand for ground source heat pumps, but I am. Without wanting to blow my own trumpet I would argue that there is no one on this forum who is in a better position than me to comment on the demand for renewables. If you think you know more about it than I do I'd like to hear why.


I am certainly in a better position than you to know that these systems are being sold to the wrong people to install.
In fact on Monday I am going to sort out a system that the plumber who sold the system has not got a clue how to get it running and his supplier (a very respected name in combustion boilers) has also not got a clue about the specifics of rudimentary refrigeration. Their top "commissioning engineer" has passed it on.
I will have it sorted within the hour.

Maybe my industry is missing a trick here?



A very brief overview of the market for renewables is as such.

Low demand for domestic customers wishing to upgrade their existing combi boilers to a renewable alternative. (High initial layout, long repayment period, reduced government incentives due to already having higher efficiency boiler system)

Low/Medium demand for domestic customers wishing to upgrade their existing system boilers to a renewable alternative. (Same High initial layout with long repayment period, but greater value of government funding available due to existing inefficient heating system and the fact that they will need to be upgrading to a combi system in the near future anyway)

Medium/High demand from developers (e.g. Persimmon) A great deal of new build properties are being fitted primarily with solar panel systems (photovoltaic/evacuated tube) or Ground/Air source heat pumps as standard. This is due to the lower cost that such developers can source the goods at, the fact that it can be built into the overall cost of a house and as such be absorbed into the buyers mortgage, and attracts grants from the government. This also helps developers meet new regs quite easily.

In summary. New Build - Demand High, Domestic upgrades - Demand not so high.

I 100% agree, even though I didn't say it in as may words.

The thing is that now with air/ground sourced heatpumps you can no longer depend on one trade as a one stop service provider. You need a plumber for the water side, a fridge man for the heat generation and an electrician for the controls and power.

When these things break down first a plumber is called, he can't fix it because it's blowing the power supply, so a spark is called, he can't fix it because it's the compressor blowing the power supply, next a fridge man is called,etc...etc....

The only loser is the consumer.

Yes they are good, but god help anyone who has one fail on them.

Steve

[LicensedToTrade]

I am certainly in a better position than you to know that these systems are being sold to the wrong people to install.
In fact on Monday I am going to sort out a system that the plumber who sold the system has not got a clue how to get it running and his supplier

Now obviously it is not the responsibility of the supplier to ensure that the installer knows what he is doing, it is the responsibility of the end user to ensure he is employing someone who is capable of carrying out the work they are paying them for. E.g. if you are having your system boiler upgraded to a combi you will employ a GSR registered installer. However I do agree with you that not many traditional heating engineers are qualified in terms of knowledge or experience to start installing renewable systems off-the-cuff. At Saint-Gobain we have decided to take on some of this responsibilty by setting up our own training academies to train installers in the various systems. Unlike the manufacturers who only train installers with products they make, we do cross-brand training.

The thing is that now with air/ground sourced heatpumps you can no longer depend on one trade as a one stop service provider. You need a plumber for the water side, a fridge man for the heat generation and an electrician for the controls and power.

When these things break down first a plumber is called, he can't fix it because it's blowing the power supply, so a spark is called, he can't fix it because it's the compressor blowing the power supply, next a fridge man is called,etc...etc....

The only loser is the consumer.

Yes they are good, but god help anyone who has one fail on them.

Steve

Have you ever had a customer call you to replace a broken electric shower or immersion heater in a cylinder?

Well under current regs a suitably qualified electrician must isolate the shower (or immersion) before the plumber can carry out work. Then the electrician must connect everything back up again. So multi-skilled jobs are hardly a something unique to renewables.

Something that will interest consumers is the work being carried out by the government to create 'Green Mortgages' these would be long-term loans over say 25 years that can be taken out to cover the cost of upgrading to a renewable system.

[UKSBD]

When these things break down first a plumber is called, he can't fix it because it's blowing the power supply, so a spark is called, he can't fix it because it's the compressor blowing the power supply, next a fridge man is called,etc...etc....

Yes, but surely that's the point of having certified installers.
It shouldn't be a case of the first person you call is a plumber, electrician
or aircon man,
The call should now go to the certified installation company who should
have all 3 trades on their books.

[Steve Cool]

Yes, but surely that's the point of having certified installers.
It shouldn't be a case of the first person you call is a plumber, electrician
or aircon man,
The call should now go to the certified installation company who should
have all 3 trades on their books.

But the whole thread is about advertising cheap heating special offers. When these systems are installed there is nothing cheap about them. The kit isn't cheap, the installation isn't cheap and for the very reason you mention servicing isn't lightly to be cheap either.
As far as energy efficiency is concerned I'm not convinced they are more efficient than combustion boilers either. I have commissioned these things and I know exactly how much electricity they use at various ambient temperatures. I have not seen one yet that can deliver hot water at 65 deg C when it is close to 0 deg C outside, no matter what your brochures tell you. The quality Japanese manufacturers admit this and incorporate electric booster heaters into the system for the UK and northern European countries. The newer CO2 systems are very close to achieving this, but they can not be had for a price anything remotely comparable to a gas boiler.

If consumers want to believe that some jumped up Chinese copycat system with a fancy brand sticker on will provide all their heating requirements better and cheaper than a good old gas boiler then good luck to them. I know from front-line experience and i'm sticking with gas for now, and because it is on it's way out cheapest is best.

Steve

[UKSBD]

But the whole thread is about advertising

The thread went off topic a long time ago.

I think most will agree that the vast majority of Gas Angels domestic
customers won't be interested in ground source or air source pumps for
a few years.

I would think the main reason these systems are really being fitted is
because of planning stipulations and they're only really feasible if speched
to new builds at the planning stage

[oldeagleeye]

It is true then. Plumbers and some members really can walk on water. According to our Mr Lasagne anyway. I quote

"If steve says it is much more expensive to fit a heat pump, then its more expensive to fit a heat pump, end of, he should know."

Cool baby cool. What a lot of tripe. Matching handbags I say. :eek:

Steve is just one of 1,000s of air-con retailers with a vested interest in his products. I don't blame him for that. I do object to being slagged off because I take a different view based on sound research as a customer.

BTW. I am absolutely bloody useless at DIY but I recently bought a wall mounted Airforce climate control unit. Nice silver job too. Cost £149.95 and it was harder to unwrap it than install it.

Couldn't come across the promotion I saw including fitting and frankly I would be wasting my time.

I can tell you however that the Vailant 14KW comes in at just under £800 trade and retails about £2K so there is a lot of milage there for free fitting.

The company below. I have no idea how good but it seems that the unit is Toshiba based. Cost from £999 - £1199.

All these systems BTW are air to water heat pumps you don' t need ducting or one on each floor as has been suggested - end of story. So read my signiture again. It says it all.


http://www.wharfplumbing.co.uk/air_source_heat_pump_pumps.htm

[G. Lasagne]

licensetotrade: Thanks for the stats, so the markey it is exactly where i said it was, i dont do new builds so you have emphasised my point that i should keep on fitting combis, im glad this thread has took this path as its an interesting topic.
im very interested in the training maybe not now but defo in the future.
could you pm me details please.
Dave

[Steve Cool]

Old eagle eye.

If you read the data for the system on the link you provided you will see that the most powerful system, the 11.9kw one, the power drops to 7kw when the ambient is 2degC. The system also only delivers hot water at 55degC. This is not enough to heat a house let alone think of providing you with hot water.

If you really are in the market for these quality of systems may I suggest that you spend your change on lots of woolly socks and jumpers from Primark because your house is going to be cold in winter, very cold.

As far as your split A/C system is concerned good luck, I have one installed in my office to demonstrate to customers why they should buy a quality system. Yes it heats and it cools, but I would not want one in my bedroom unless i had an hearing aid that can be switched of at night.
If it is one with flexible hoses, book now for a fridgeman to come and repair it soon. It is going to loose it's gas and your fridgeman will find that there is no service ports on it. The repair is going to cost you more than you paid for it. Garenteed.

Steve

[LicensedToTrade]

licensetotrade: Thanks for the stats, so the markey it is exactly where i said it was, i dont do new builds so you have emphasised my point that i should keep on fitting combis, im glad this thread has took this path as its an interesting topic.
im very interested in the training maybe not now but defo in the future.
could you pm me details please.
Dave

Not a problem, a few others in this topic have asked me for the same information. As I have said to them if they provide me with their name and email address in a PM I will pass you on to one our external Greenworks consultants who will get information about training and a product guide out to you. They are like workhorses in that they will do all of the leg work if you have a project that requires renewables. You simply get on the phone to them or email them with your customers requirements and they will put your options together with a few plans, all free of charge.

So drop me a PM and I will pass your details on when I get into the office on Monday.

[Steve Cool]

I don't wan anybody to get the wrong Idea of what I am saying here so to clarify my position here goes:

These systems are very good and they are very economical to run and they are very environmentally friendly. They are the future.
Anybody looking to have one installed need to do their research very carefully because the data presented in sales brochures can be very misleading.

If you want one for 100% heating and hot water you need to do a full heat loss calculation of your house based on an ambient of 0degC then select a system accordingly as I mentioned in my post above, an advertised 11kw system is only really 7kw based on UK conditions.
So unless you have either 3 phase electricity in your home or have only a very small home you will soon find that two of the systems are needed.

Steve

[Steve Cool]

Yes, but surely that's the point of having certified installers.
It shouldn't be a case of the first person you call is a plumber, electrician
or aircon man,
The call should now go to the certified installation company who should
have all 3 trades on their books.

Yes but which one do they send first?

For average Joe in five years time when the warranty has expired, he will pick up the yellow pages and ring a plumber.
The public is going to find it very difficult to find a man and van who is qualified in all three necessary trades.
I am a fridgeman and an electrician, but not a plumber, I know plumbers who are also electrically qualified but not fridgemen. I also know fridgemen who are gas fitters but not electricians.

Anybody who starts training now and can attain their 17th edition, Part P, C&G2079 and get qualified as a plumber has a very lucrative future ahead of them.

Steve

[UKSBD]

I think it basically boils down to the fact you have to have these systems
fitted (or overseen) by experts from start to finish

The days of a plumber fitting a heating system, then getting a heating
engineer to commission the boiler seem to be over. (on new build)

[UKSBD]

Yes but which one do they send first?

For average Joe in five years time when the warranty has expired, he will pick up the yellow pages and ring a plumber.
The public is going to find it very difficult to find a man and van who is qualified in all three necessary trades.
I am a fridgeman and an electrician, but not a plumber, I know plumbers who are also electrically qualified but not fridgemen. I also know fridgemen who are gas fitters but not electricians.

Anybody who starts training now and can attain their 17th edition, Part P, C&G2079 and get qualified as a plumber has a very lucrative future ahead of them.

Steve

Which again boils down to having it installed correctly by certified installers in the first place.
From what I see, these systems have 20 year guarantees.

Evertything is going the same, 20 years ago if your car broke down you get the local mechanic out, nowadays it is a car technician, so why different with heating systems?

[Steve Cool]

Yes but you take your car to a garage who have the different technicians in house. They do not keep sending different engineers until the right one comes along.

Who is offering 20 year warranties? out of interest.
I know of no compressor (the clever and expensive bit in heatpumps) manufacturer who offers more than 5 years. Their life expectancy is on average 7 years from my experience.

Steve

[UKSBD]

Yes but you take your car to a garage who have the different technicians in house. They do not keep sending different engineers until the right one comes along.

Yes, but it's going to happen whether anyone likes it or not.

I'm not talking about people upgrading systems, I'm talking new build and
anyone who buys a new house over the coming years.

When it is part of planning stipulations that these systems go in, what
choice do people (building companies have)?

It will become the choice of the installer of how they handle problems,
send out 1 trade when there is a problem and hope he is the right one,
send out teams of 2, or train staff so they can do both.
It shouldn't be the problem of the end user.

The maintenance costs should be built in to the price of the system and
everyone who buys a house with these systems should be made aware
they have to have a permanent maintenance contract.

Like I say, it's happening whether we like it or not.

[Steve Cool]

:) So I think we all agree, that these systems are the future, they are not cheap, they will be expensive to maintain and Gas should run his advert based on the principle that cheapest is best because combustion heating will be a thing of history within the next 10 years.:)

Now I'm going loading my van up to charge a suitably extortionate fee to repair one of these things tomorrow. ;) Before i go and install a 24kw heat pump system in a restaurant with full heat recover ventilation. The futures bright, the futures green.

Cheers

Steve

[oldeagleeye]

No I don't agree that air heat pumps are for the future or are more expensive to install than the boilers the OP mentioned and in any event cheapest is seldom the best.

I'll tell you what guy's - given the attitude shown by GL & Steve and I am thinking it is typical of the trade I am seriously considering setting up a company to exploit this market because I do not believe that air heat pumps are only for new builds.

Every major company in Britain is now being forced to look at energy conservation. That opens up a huge market in offices and other industrial premises. As far as private punters are concerned. Again I think it is just a question of marketing.

I rather suspect that most homeowners think that to install an air heat pump means ripping up the floor and also installing underfloor heating too. I doubt few realise that these units can be plumbed straight into any existing radiator system.

Watch this space then because if I do go into this business I will also be offering a cost effective service contract too making a nonsense of all those so called expensive repairs.:D

Robert

Soon to be MD of Kool Dynamics:eek:

[G. Lasagne]

You obviously are that tied up in your own importance that you have failed to take any informatio onbord from experts in this field.

License to trade (a manger at one of the leading suppliers of heating products) has stated that currently there is a low demand for this product excpept in new build
properties.

Me: a gas safe registered owner of a HEATING company, who is experienced and pays a invested interest in all methods of heating, currnetly fitting 10-20 condensing boilers per month and receiving zero calls from customers for heat pumps.

Stevecool: the experienced owner of air-con/refrigeration comapny: has explained on numerous occassions that the syetmes are expensive, have reliability problems and are noisy.

oldeagleeye: a financial know it all (or something like that) with zero experience in any heating related fields, believes that i should stop catering for the huge demand for condensing boilers and start fitting these heat pumps, because he has decided he wants one in his house, i also noticed that you have experience in marketing looking at your profile, i suggest you will need that experience if your going to sell this idea.

WHICH MEMBER WOULD YOU LISTEN TOO?

In summary, i totally agree that the systems discussed in this thread are the future and i would be crazy not exploit the market when the time arises, but i can assure you i will be receiving the correct training, not just telling the lads to wing it, because a guy on ukbf says its just a couple of screws and a compression fitting. On that note i assume you will be fitting your pump yourself with it being so easy and all?

I will cocentrate my efforts towards the current market, but will always keep one eye on other oppurtunities, so bearing that in mind, is there anymore tips for the ads?

Dave
I am always right but then again - I am a heating engineer

[Steve Cool]

No I don't agree that air heat pumps are for the future or are more expensive to install than the boilers the OP mentioned and in any event cheapest is seldom the best.


You are nearly right with this, they are no more expensive to install labour wise. But FACT, the equipment is more expensive. You have to compare apples to apples. A 14kw gas boiler will need to be compared to a 20kw heatpump for UK conditions.



I'll tell you what guy's - given the attitude shown by GL & Steve and I am thinking it is typical of the trade I am seriously considering setting up a company to exploit this market because I do not believe that air heat pumps are only for new builds.


And EXPLOIT your customers you will do, your BELIEFS are not FACT


I rather suspect that most homeowners think that to install an air heat pump means ripping up the floor and also installing underfloor heating too. I doubt few realise that these units can be plumbed straight into any existing radiator system.


Again you are wrong. Your current radiators have been sized to heat your house with a water delivery temperature of 65 deg C. The type of heat pump you have found on ebay will only reliably deliver water at 40 deg C under UK conditions. This means that to heat your home you will have to increase the number of radiators in your home or replace your current ones for some with a larger surface area. Or install underfloor heating. Basic science I'm afraid.
Just now are carbon dioxide based systems reaching Europe from Japan where they have been in common use for 10 years now. These will deliver that critical 65 deg C needed to retrofit onto your existing radiators. These are way out of the price league of Joe Average at the moment


Soon to be MD of Kool Dynamics:eek:

Good luck and I seriously wish you well because this industry is in it's infancy and is going to make a lot of people seriously rich. Please accept though that you have a hell of a lot to learn before you start investing your money in this idea.

Steve

[oldeagleeye]

Being second doesn't count. As fo my marketing expertise. You seem to be determined to slag me off. Well eat your words chaps.

At just 21 years old I set up the first general retail franchise in Britain at a time when few people had even heard of the word or knew what it meant apart from a few Wimpey Burger bar owners.

At just under 40 I took a small electronics firm repairing arcade machines with a tiny workshop at Clacton-on-Sea and turned it into the most respected and sucessful supplier of covert survelemce equipment in the world.

Every law enforcement agency - every security agancy in the western world came knocking on our door - and no I am not full of my own self importance or being flash. I used to put the CIA. The FBI. The White House Secret Service up in holiday caravans just up the road and they loved it. Nearer to home we invented the first electronic transmitter that didn't require and aerial and it was used by Special Brancj & Customs in the biggest drugs bust in British history.

Having sold that business on I concentrated on another I owned. A mortgage brokers. While every other broker and his dog were servicing the 'today' market with the tight income criterea that entailed. I looked ahead.

I went around the building societies and arrnged my own funds. The result. The first truly non-status mortgage in Britain. The first buy to let. Both were an instant success. The rest is history but would I want to be a finance broker now. No way.

There are leaders and there are followers and there are those that are slow to sieze oppotunities. I will choose what I want to be and am capable of - thank you guys.

Robert.

BTW. Check out the news. Russia about to cut off our gas supplies again.:eek: Only kidding guys but the next time it happens - and it will what do you think homeowners will be phoning up about. A useless boiler or an air heat pump and incidentally I noticed not one of you commented on the prices or that alternative market - the body corporate.

[oldeagleeye]

Appreciate the comments in your last post Steve but I have no intention of handling the techical side. I will partner with some-one that has that expertise.

Now I suggest we end this thread on a more friendly note and with a nice glass of claret in my hand I raise a toast to all our members wishing all an early best wishes for good health and prosperity in the new year.

Robert

[LicensedToTrade]

Let us agree that the future is just that. Time can be the only judge of who is right and who is wrong in this situation, no amount of debate today can change that. What can be drawn from this however is that there a lot of people who have contributed to this thread with the kind of passion, anger, excitment and ferocity that you only find in people that are commited to making something a success.

I'm rarely impressed, but what can I say.

[UKSBD]

I know a number of building companies around here who don't have a clue
about this stuff, I also know that local planners are stipulating these
types of systems as conditions of planning consent.
Someone is going to make a killing out of it.

Don't know as I would want to be involved at the infancy, I bet there
will be a lot of buck passing going on in a few years, when problems start
occuring.

The installers will blame the builders, builders blame the installers, builders
blame the architects.
I can just see it now, the builder puts 50mm insulation in, as to regs they
are reading, the spechs for the system says 75mm, and then each blame
each other.

It's exactly the same with lots of things on the building,
take manufactured joists and trusses for example, I doubt there is a house
in the country built to the exact specification in the small print of the joist
manufacturers

[Steve Cool]

BTW. Check out the news. Russia about to cut off our gas supplies again.:eek: Only kidding guys but the next time it happens - and it will what do you think homeowners will be phoning up about. A useless boiler or an air heat pump and incidentally I noticed not one of you commented on the prices or that alternative market - the body corporate.

:) Not a problem for me as i have heat pump heating in my house, only for supplementary heating of course. :D

I have also enjoyed the debate, merry Christmas and a prosperous new year to all.

Cheers

Steve.

PS If you really want to partner with somebody and put in the dosh, I know a very good company of refrigeration/air conditioning engineers who are currently researching this market.:redface: Their name escapes me at the moment....

[G. Lasagne]

Being second doesn't count. As fo my marketing expertise. You seem to be determined to slag me off. Well eat your words chaps.

At just 21 years old I set up the first general retail franchise in Britain at a time when few people had even heard of the word or knew what it meant apart from a few Wimpey Burger bar owners.

At just under 40 I took a small electronics firm repairing arcade machines with a tiny workshop at Clacton-on-Sea and turned it into the most respected and sucessful supplier of covert survelemce equipment in the world.

Every law enforcement agency - every security agancy in the western world came knocking on our door - and no I am not full of my own self importance or being flash. I used to put the CIA. The FBI. The White House Secret Service up in holiday caravans just up the road and they loved it. Nearer to home we invented the first electronic transmitter that didn't require and aerial and it was used by Special Brancj & Customs in the biggest drugs bust in British history.

Having sold that business on I concentrated on another I owned. A mortgage brokers. While every other broker and his dog were servicing the 'today' market with the tight income criterea that entailed. I looked ahead.

I went around the building societies and arrnged my own funds. The result. The first truly non-status mortgage in Britain. The first buy to let. Both were an instant success. The rest is history but would I want to be a finance broker now. No way.

There are leaders and there are followers and there are those that are slow to sieze oppotunities. I will choose what I want to be and am capable of - thank you guys.

Robert.

BTW. Check out the news. Russia about to cut off our gas supplies again.:eek: Only kidding guys but the next time it happens - and it will what do you think homeowners will be phoning up about. A useless boiler or an air heat pump and incidentally I noticed not one of you commented on the prices or that alternative market - the body corporate.


The question was "what heating experience do you have"? thanks for your life story but your business experience is not related to this topic, as i have pointed out, so pointless:rolleyes:

I have read this thread and have taken onboard the expert opinions of some of the members (unfortunately that does not include you), and i would like to say thanks to steve,license to trade and uksbd for a good insight in to this market, i will research it more when i get the chance and maybe do my own market research so i too will become an expert, and i have no doubt in the future that pumps and solar panels will be services i offer in the future.

Im glad this thread went off topic, and i will probably start a new one just to get back on topic, as i have a new idea for the ad and would like some more feedback.

Feedabck from anyone no matter hat there background is always well recieved, but i suggest in future you laccept that your technical knowledge is not up to scratch to lock horns with other members on certian topics.

I would not start preaching what the future of retail is, i may give an uneducated opinion, but at no point will i claim people are wrong when i no very little about the industry.

keep you eyes peeled for my next "ad" thread i would appreciate any marketing tips you may have.

[CKG]

I've fitted dozens and dozens of ground source heat pumps. I even had the rigs to drill the bore holes.

I'll show you a pic of a small 9kw + 300L hotwater system we installed a little while back....

http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/8466/caerllynheatpump.th.jpg (http://img300.imageshack.us/i/caerllynheatpump.jpg/)

As you see they take a bit of space....and cost punter over £20K with the bore hole drilling...

It does work fantastically well though.

[G. Lasagne]

I've fitted dozens and dozens of ground source heat pumps. I even had the rigs to drill the bore holes.

I'll show you a pic of a small 9kw + 300L hotwater system we installed a little while back....

http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/8466/caerllynheatpump.th.jpg (http://img300.imageshack.us/i/caerllynheatpump.jpg/)

As you see they take a bit of space....and cost punter over £20K with the bore hole drilling...

It does work fantastically well though.

A few questions if i may mate:)

20k, what percentage of that was profit?
what size property was it?
how long did it take?

Cheers

Looks like a good job:)

[ThePublisher]

I have a gas service engineer advertising with my magazines. He's been advertising that he can supply and install solar panels (in his advert alongside his 'normal' services) for the past 18 months. In that time he's had one enquiry about solar and that didn't turn into a job. He also advertised Air Source heat pumps for 3 months, got no interest in that either. These may be the products of the future, but in the main the general public isn't interested enough in them at the moment to choose them over a conventional boiler. He's now abandoned advertising solar due to the lack of interest.

Going back to your original question, I'd probably respond to the Baxi ad as I've not heard of the others, and TBH Band A means nothing to me. We've got a Valliant, but I only know this because I've just been and looked at the controller (husband wanted this on the recommendation from a work colleague) - I may have recognised the Valliant name if I'd seen it in your advert.

We thought briefly about air source when we had our extension done, but TBH the cost (although we never got as far as a quote) and the fact that the garden would have been completely wrecked to get the pipework in put us off. We also thought about solar, but decided we didn't want panels visible from the front of the house, and there wasn't really enough clear roof at the back to put them in.

[CKG]

A few questions if i may mate

20k, what percentage of that was profit?
what size property was it?
how long did it take?

Cheers

Looks like a good job

No idea on the profit % as it was part of a big ground up re-fit of a 3 bed stone cottage we did.

As ever the meat of the profit is just made on the labour element of the job. I think made about £500 on the heat pump & tank supply. Not bad for doing nothing.

Time wise it is more intensive than a traditional boiler as the pipework is much more complex and it takes a good day to fire the thing up and test it out as it heats up so slowly.

Plus you have to commission the ground loops with the glycol/water mixture and test it with a refractometer to get the freezing point correct and air out of it.

That job had nearly 500m of 40mm collector pipe to purge out - it takes hours to do it properly.

I used to quite enjoy fitting heat pumps. There was a lot of travel and hence cost involved in pricing up and selling the systems though. That's the bit of the job that nearly sent me under as the lead time from punter showing interest to handing over the mula was so long - you need truck loads of working capital to do installation and sales on a big scale off your own bat.

I'd like to get back into it but only in a sales & commissioning role as the installation side it where the technical problems creep in and suck up your time and profit.

[LicensedToTrade]

TBH Band A means nothing to me. We've got a Valliant, but I only know this because I've just been and looked at the controller

Band A is simply the SEDBUK rating of the boiler. This is an overall measure of efficiency similar to the ABCDE etc rating you get on some white goods like fridges. It is calculated in a pretty complicated way but all the consumer needs to know is that in a like for like trial, a Band A rating is the most efficient.

Most new gas combi boilers are a Band A or B.

[Steve Cool]

In fact on Monday I am going to sort out a system that the plumber who sold the system has not got a clue how to get it running and his supplier (a very respected name in combustion boilers) has also not got a clue about the specifics of rudimentary refrigeration. Their top "commissioning engineer" has passed it on.
I will have it sorted within the hour.


Exactly 2 minutes it took.$$$ KERCHING $$$. Give me more, easiest money i have earned for years.

Steve

[admagic]

I dont like the ad at all......it says what it is , not what it does.

even warmer house = much lower bills

is what it does

say how boiler efficiency has gone into orbit over the last few years
and there no comparison with these new boilers

how which says this one is the best of the best...(you need credibility from somewhere)

there are also a couple of variables you should consider too....

POSITION ON PAGE IS VITAL... you want top right hand corner of page.
difference is dramatic...if they say they cant

ALSO use an irregular feature , eg a handwritten message like "this is the one" With an arrow or "cheaper and hotter!" to draw attention to the ad.

FINALLY give a reason for the ad.......preferably truthful...
about how you made a mistake with the order, and ended up with too many,
so you have to let them go to make room....

DONT JUST GIVE A DEAL, give a reason why it is a good deal,

Dont just say 5 year guarantee either - say "and to prove how reliable these thingss arer, i can give you a 5 year guarantee!! - which if you dont have a lot of room
an imitation scrawll "wow thats reliable" pointing at the guarante...

etc

[admagic]

Reply got cut off - I meant to say...

Demand top RHS of page, and if they tell you they can't do it, say that it is a pity, and tell them that you cannot place it left hand side (waste your money) , but if they would like to call you, if ever they have an issue when you can get top corner - and chances are they will call back to agree....

When they tell you it is £400 - tell them you cant do that - but if they have late space at £250 - to give you a call. Chances are they will put it in at £250 - advertising is a buyers market, and very few advertisers know how damaging left hand placement really is, so you will be competiting with few for the best place.

Difference of mid left to top right corner can be even 10 to 1 or MORE!!

[oldeagleeye]

Nice one Steve. Working on the assumption that this job came about as some sort of time warp where you were suddenly transported 10 years into the future this huge amount of easy money will be a bonus then that you don't really need.

I know a certain charity looking for donations if you don't know what to do with the dosh.:D

[VeitSchenk]

unfortunately the top RHS position thing is one of those urban myths. There are plenty of studies (so called copy-tests where they ask readers which ads they remember after a given period of time) and the difference between LHS, RHS, top-bottom is neglibigle. (on the order of 4%, definitely not factor 10 you mention in your post).

just to qualify my statement, this is a copy-test done in Germany, and I know, Germans are weird, but I doubt that they're so weird that their reading (and remembering ads) habits are that different from the rest of the world.

the theory WHY the RHS isn't so super-strong is that plenty of people read the paper back-to-front and they tend to see the other page (LHS) first.

BUT: most sales-reps don't actually know this (and they're very surprised when we show them the graphs/stats in our seminars), so please use the negotiation strategy below.

Veit

Reply got cut off - I meant to say...

Demand top RHS of page, and if they tell you they can't do it, say that it is a pity, and tell them that you cannot place it left hand side (waste your money) , but if they would like to call you, if ever they have an issue when you can get top corner - and chances are they will call back to agree....

When they tell you it is £400 - tell them you cant do that - but if they have late space at £250 - to give you a call. Chances are they will put it in at £250 - advertising is a buyers market, and very few advertisers know how damaging left hand placement really is, so you will be competiting with few for the best place.

Difference of mid left to top right corner can be even 10 to 1 or MORE!!

[VeitSchenk]

oh, and the other points in admagic's post are excellent (and much more important that position on page)

[oldeagleeye]

Now chaps lets not get into all this positioning stuff. It will drive you mad. What about Russian & Hebrew read from left to right. Chinese read up and down. Not sure about Arabic. Who knows. Who cares - just make sure that you get a bloody good discount.:eek:

[LicensedToTrade]

Now chaps lets not get into all this positioning stuff. It will drive you mad. What about Russian & Hebrew read from left to right. Chinese read up and down. Not sure about Arabic. Who knows. Who cares - just make sure that you get a bloody good discount.:eek:

Don't forget Australians, they read upside down don't they?

[oldeagleeye]

Met an Aussie Secret Service man once. Had what looked like a bloody big shoulder holster under the sweaty armpits of his jacket. No .44 Smith & Western magnum there however. Just a 4 pack of Fosters.

[LicensedToTrade]

I'll remember that if I ever find myself in Australia thirsty for a frosty one, just tickle the nearest Australian government official and you will be rewarded with a 4 pack.