Web design, PPC, SEO, copywriting ... does anybody do it all?

[Colin Parker]

I had what I call one of my 'Columbo moments' this morning ... the one where he is just about to leave the suspect's office when he turns back and says "you know there is something I just don't understand ... ".

What I just don't understand is this ...

I consistently talk to businesses who get their website designed by one company, the SEO done by another, the PPC by yet another and if they need any copywriting they start looking again.

That is just the wrong way to go about internet marketing.

Each of these companies will have different agenda's and even if they tried to integrate their services for the benefit of the client (and how often would that happen?) it is still likely that the outcome would fall far short of ideal.

For example, you only have to read the SEO v PPC debates or the web design v copyright arguments etc., on this forum to get a flavour of how widely opinions differ.

So do these businesses employ multiple companies because they know no better ... because they think that this is the right way ... or because they cannot find one IM company that has all of the required talents under one roof.

Columbo would want the answer ... and so do I.

Colin Parker

[The Dreaded Lurgy]

Maybe putting all your eggs in one persons basket is not a good idea, just one disagreement could see all aspects of your marketing affected simultaeneously.

Also although having one person would bring all those things together in harmony if the direction taken is wrong all things again are wrong, seeing what different people are doing could allow you to pick the most suitable style and then apply it to the other areas.

[matt.chatterley]

I think this tends to happen for a couple of reasons:

1. When a "one man band" is employed to undertake a given task - the old adage, "Jack of all trades, Master of none" does spring to mind and is probably a prevailing concern.

2. Because the client decides (for various reasons, including the marketing employed by the service providers?) that he wants Company X to fulfil function Y, and so forth.

In reality, a lot of service providers are able to handle more than one (or all) of these - although we are a relatively small team, we all have different areas of expertise, allowing us to provide a well rounded approach - right through from Graphic Design and Copy Writing to Web Development a SQL Server Tuning.

Plus, I suspect a lot of agencies subcontract specific functions to trusted, quality controlled suppliers (e.g copywriters). It certainly seems more logical to have a single point of contact for your project management.. doesn't it?

[tmhcks]

Plenty of companies do this all under one roof. Admittedly some of them outsource some elements, but Cyber-Duck are an example of a company that have all the in house competencies.

[Colin Parker]

It certainly seems more logic to have a single point of contact for your project management.. doesn't it?

I would agree with that.

Colin Parker

[Scott-CopyandDesign]

It's partially a psychological thing. If I want to use the services of a business, I want them to be focused entirely on that service. I want them to concentrate on that service and be specialists in it.

The more services a business provides, the more diluted the overall feel of quality becomes.

Think of food for example. If I want many of my usual average quality food products, then I'll go to Tesco or Asda. However, if I wanted a really top quality cake for a very special event, then I'll go to a specialist cake maker, instead of buying a run-of-the-mill one from a superstore.

This isn't just a psychological thing though. It does have some truth in it. Every type of service you mentioned there takes years of learning to master each one. One person couldn't carry out everything to an outstanding quality. I'd usually get a better service from someone who has focused on one specific subject for many years. If I use a web designer, then I want one with 10 years experience. I don't want one with 10 years experience in a mixture of web design, SEO, copywriting and whatever else he has tried having a go at.

The only way for a business to do it is to employ a number of specialists. Many businesses do this - such as large marketing agencies. However, people still feel like this may dilute the quality of each specific service, and if they don't want to deal with a large business, then they have no choice but to use a specific person. You severely reduce your options if you only go for businesses which handle everything.

Those debates in that other forum aren't very relevant. They're arguing for one or the other (i.e copywriting OR SEO). Any good specialist in any field will take into account the other elements of an online business when carrying out their service.

For example, I'm a copywriter, but I also take into account SEO and attempt to optimise the keyword usage in my copy. I also take design into account, so the copy looks good, but also stands out so it grabs attention.

If I want a top quality job doing, then I'm going to hire a focused specialist. I'm not going to hire a larger business which attempts to juggle 3 or 4 different services.

[sirearl]

Not only that but I play a mean guitar as well.

Copywriting is an integral part of SEO .

I use a team of designers and developers when needed who work under my direction..

Earl

[Colin Parker]

Plenty of companies do this all under one roof. Admittedly some of them outsource some elements, but Cyber-Duck (http://www.cyber-duck.co.uk/portfolio-internet-productions.php) are an example of a company that have all the in house competencies.

Do you work for them?

I had a quick look at the site and noticed they did Periscopix the PPC company. I can remember seeing that site a few months ago when I did a pay per click search and I thought it was horrendous. I cannot see them advertising on pay per click now ... I wonder why.

Colin Parker

[tmhcks]

I do work for Cyber-Duck, yes. It's a shame you don't like the Periscopix website because most people we speak to love it's quirkyness. They are a very successful PPC company in fact.

[Colin Parker]

If I want a top quality job doing, then I'm going to hire a focused specialist. I'm not going to hire a larger business which attempts to juggle 3 or 4 different services.

Why would you assume that a business that might employ specialists in each IM area and cohesively manage a client account is 'attempting to juggle' 3 or 4 services?

There are a myriad of businesses that have specialist departments without ever being accused of 'juggling' and 'diluting' the quality of their service.

So why should this apply to IM?

Colin Parker

[Colin Parker]

I do work for Cyber-Duck, yes. It's a shame you don't like the Periscopix (http://www.periscopix.co.uk/) website because most people we speak to love it's quirkyness. They are a very successful PPC company in fact.

It's not a question of whether most people 'love its quirkyness' it's a question of whether it converts or not.

Colin Parker

[tmhcks]

It's not a question of whether most people 'love its quirkyness' it's a question of whether it converts or not.

Colin Parker

Well Periscopix are delighted with the site, so maybe that says something about if it converts or not ;)

[directmarketingadvice]

So do these businesses employ multiple companies because they know no better ... because they think that this is the right way ... or because they cannot find one IM company that has all of the required talents under one roof.

I think the likelihood of finding all of these skills in one person is pretty low. They're too broad a range of skills and are a mixture of left-brain and right-brain.

And, even if someone was good at them all, they'd usually end up specialising.

For example, I know an SEO who can also do site design and ppc. If he had the time, he could become a good copywriter.

But he doesn't have the time or the inclination. Instead he focuses on the SEO because it's lucrative for him and outsources much of the web design, PPC and copywriting.

An agency could hire talent in all the areas. And maybe that's what should happen.

However, that doesn't mean there won't be different agendas. It only means the different agendas will be warring under the same roof and politics will usually decide who gets their way.

Steve

[Colin Parker]

I think the likelihood of finding all of these skills in one person is pretty low. They're too broad a range of skills and are a mixture of left-brain and right-brain.

And, even if someone was good at them all, they'd usually end up specialising.

For example, I know an SEO who can also do site design and ppc. If he had the time, he could become a good copywriter.

But he doesn't have the time or the inclination. Instead he focuses on the SEO because it's lucrative for him and outsources much of the web design, PPC and copywriting.

An agency could hire talent in all the areas. And maybe that's what should happen.

However, that doesn't mean there won't be different agendas. It only means the different agendas will be warring under the same roof and politics will usually decide who gets their way.

Steve

I perhaps used the wrong word in 'anybody'. I really meant does any one company do it all (which I am sure they do) and if so why don't more businesses appear to use them.

As for different agendas warring under the same roof that is called office politics and happens to one degree or another in all businesses.

Colin Parker

[Kev Jaques]

It may be down to actually promoting all of those services Colin.
I do as much as I can (due to being a control freak, but then I'm not normal ;) ) but don't actively promote those services as Steve also mentioned it's good to specialise.

I also team up with Matt above now and then as we have worked together in a previous company so a lot of it is also to do with trust and respect.

I got away from the office politics crap and don't see this in my business as I'm a one man band and I don't tolerate those kinds of hidden agendas.

[sirearl]

For example, I know an SEO who can also do site design and ppc. If he had the time, he could become a good copywriter.

But he doesn't have the time or the inclination. Instead he focuses on the SEO because it's lucrative for him and outsources much of the web design, PPC and copywriting.



In that case he is making life harder for himself.

Earl

[directmarketingadvice]

In that case he is making life harder for himself.

Earl

Why?

He's always booked up months in advance, just with the SEO.

Steve

[UKDuckMan]

Someone here is flaming

[Scott-CopyandDesign]

Why would you assume that a business that might employ specialists in each IM area and cohesively manage a client account is 'attempting to juggle' 3 or 4 services?

There are a myriad of businesses that have specialist departments without ever being accused of 'juggling' and 'diluting' the quality of their service.

So why should this apply to IM?

Colin Parker

Because we do. It's human nature. This is what I mean about the psychological effect. People are going to believe that core specialists, focusing on one particular topic, are going to be better at it.

If a business does everything then it dilutes its website, dilutes its marketing, dilutes its sales copy and dilutes its resources. You have to spread your marketing and communication out over a much wider audience to reach every type of person who would want these services. This is opposed to focusing everything on one specialist service.

For the businesses which want an all-in-one package, you have to hit every nail on the head or you'll lose the client. Quality varies. If an all-in-one agency had a good portfolio of designs, but iffy web copy, then I won't use them for everything.

Another issue is putting all your eggs in one basket. You're making yourself much more liable if you give one business or identity the responsibility of creating your website, marketing, SEO, PPC and copywriting. If problems arise, or if the quality of the work is poor, then everything will be ruined.

[sirearl]

Why?

He's always booked up months in advance, just with the SEO.

Steve

Copywriting is an integral part of SEO.

Earl

[directmarketingadvice]

Copywriting is an integral part of SEO.

Earl

You keep saying that, but you've not explained what you mean.

Does it mean that SEOs need to be able to write copy to a professional level?

("copy" being what people like Bencivenga, Carlton, Makepeace etc mean when they use the word - i.e. copy written by someone who has studied direct marketing copy - rather than "copy" meaning "some words on a web page")

Steve

[Colin Parker]

Because we do. It's human nature. This is what I mean about the psychological effect. People are going to believe that core specialists, focusing on one particular topic, are going to be better at it.

If a business does everything then it dilutes its website, dilutes its marketing, dilutes its sales copy and dilutes its resources. You have to spread your marketing and communication out over a much wider audience to reach every type of person who would want these services. This is opposed to focusing everything on one specialist service.

For the businesses which want an all-in-one package, you have to hit every nail on the head or you'll lose the client. Quality varies. If an all-in-one agency had a good portfolio of designs, but iffy web copy, then I won't use them for everything.

Another issue is putting all your eggs in one basket. You're making yourself much more liable if you give one business or identity the responsibility of creating your website, marketing, SEO, PPC and copywriting. If problems arise, or if the quality of the work is poor, then everything will be ruined.

So you are saying that if you, Earl and Steve Gibson got together with an expert web designer and formed an IM company your abilities would be diluted the moment the ink was dry on the contract?

You are making the classic mistake of structuring your argument to suit your personal position ie., an independent copywriter.

My point is that I believe experts working towards one goal under one roof will almost always produce a better result than 4 or 5 independents working at arms length.

Colin Parker

[Dawg]

I'd imagine that to employ people with the appropriate skill levels in all the disciplines would be very expensive, making the use of the agency also very expensive.
This is not to deny the good sense in having everything under one roof, all pulling in the same direction, but the expense would perhaps limit the client base to larger enterprises.

There is also a case that larger companies, for instance those that encompass many diciplines in any one sector, suffer from diseconomies of scale, and become relatively inefficient as well as expensive. (Short article here (http://stumblingandmumbling.typepad.com/stumbling_and_mumbling/2005/12/diseconomies_of.html).)

[Scott-CopyandDesign]

So you are saying that if you, Earl and Steve Gibson got together with an expert web designer and formed an IM company your abilities would be diluted the moment the ink was dry on the contract?

There's a difference between the services being diluted, and people thinking that the services are diluted.

It's someone's perception of a business providing services. Don't forget, it's sales copy and marketing which actually sells your services. A focused business is going to do this better and come across like it's more specialist provider of what someone wants. A person won't know if this is the case until they actually agree to buy the service and hand their money over, but that is the part which the person has to be convinced about.

When people have this initial conception, then the business must also focus on undoing this belief, and proving that each service they provide is just as good as individual services from a few specialists.

So, people simply play it safe and find a well-suited specialist in each subject. I look for different things in different services, so an all-in-one provider has to be spot on or I'm not going to use them.

You are making the classic mistake of structuring your argument to suit your personal position ie., an independent copywriter.No I'm not. You're wondering why people use individual specialists instead of using an all-in-one provider. I'm telling you why. This is the reason why myself and many other independent service providers have many clients and far out-populate these all-in-one agencies. It isn't a massive mystery - the reasons are there.

My point is that I believe experts working towards one goal under one roof will almost always produce a better result than 4 or 5 independents working at arms length.This may not be the case. If you think that people argue about four different specialist subjects on threads, imagine what they would be like if they 'worked together' to produce a single result.

[An Oasis]

So do these businesses employ multiple companies because they know no better ... because they think that this is the right way ... or because they cannot find one IM company that has all of the required talents under one roof.

Kind of. Large companies are very slow by nature and they get it (anything that is outside of their remit) late. So yes they do one thing and then another comes along and they do that and so on.

We often run into problems with their briefs where there is a specific brief handed out which we look at and say "will not work". So instead of consulting with us directly they redo the brief, which we then amend....yada yada...much easier to hand over things to a specialist and then pick it to bits...but it does not happen - a problem with over staffing and lack of trust with partners they choose to work with me thinks...:cool::eek:

[Rusty]

My point is that I believe experts working towards one goal under one roof will almost always produce a better result than 4 or 5 independents working at arms length.Colin Parker

Don't necessarily think that these specialists need to work under the same roof but I do think it is a benefit for them to work closely together from project start.

If you can get all the elements closely working together from the outset you can achieve great things.

We can do all the elements in house ourselves, however we prefer to create partnerships with specialists in each field, this way we believe we are giving the customer a better chance of success.

It also means that we can concentrate on the SEO, whilst knowing that the design, content and PPC are being well taken care of.

Whilst I agree with Earl that copywriting is integral to SEO, it doesn't mean that you shouldn't partner with a specialist copywriter enabling you to keep an eye on the SEO side of things. In other words let the copywriter work their magic from a sales conversion point of view and just inject some SEO, if necessary.

On the other hand I also don't see anything wrong with a one man band being specialist in all the elements, SEO afterall should embrace both design and copywriting and being an SEO should make you much better at creating ads and analysing keywords for PPC.

It is an interesting thought that the customer would deliberately choose one or the other setup depending on their conceived ideas of which would be better. I think it is more important to check out your prospective suppliers to ensure that they can deliver what they promise whether that is the whole package or just one element of it. If you go down the separate suppliers route I think it is very important to ensure that all suppliers can work together.

Kerry

[directmarketingadvice]

My point is that I believe experts working towards one goal under one roof will almost always produce a better result than 4 or 5 independents working at arms length.

I'd agree.

It's greatly beneficial if the different specialists have a mutual understanding of each other's methods, mutual respect and the ability to work together harmoniously.

But, as Kerry said, they don't have to be under one roof.

I've had thoughts in the past of putting together an online direct marketing agency that's based on copywriting, conversion, design and ppc.

Unfortunately, the problem with doing that is that most successful one-man bands tend to enjoy being one-man bands. They've no real motivation to go through the hassle of changing their working methods.

(the only real selling point is that an agency could, arguably, aim for bigger clients and charge bigger fees)

Steve

[KidsBeeHappy]

But don't forget that the conflict, or disagreements, between the developer, designer, SEO, copywriter etc, will all, should all help.

The person that's been forgotten in all of this is the raw commercially focused business person.

To many websites are commissioned by clients that want a website to look like what they want it to look like. Not what their customer wants it to look like. Systems and processes that seem "essential" to the business owner, are the type of things that make customers drop out of shopping carts.

You need someone to say, yes, but do you really want it to look like that if it looses you half of your customers? Do you really want a flash design if it means you've got no hope of getting to page 1? Your shopping cart is too long, and 80% of your customers will drop out.

Everyone of those expert skills need to work in balance. And they need to work with and for the customer. And the client. And the person that can do that is the person with their eye on the money, not the processes, or the design, or the copywrite, or the SEO.

And some of the best ideas can come from having 5 people all looking at the project with totally different opionions and objectives. There is nothing like having to justify or prioritise for encouraging the clarity and sense of the arguement.

[Ali-v-8]

i have a full team.
web design, graphic design, hosting in house, ppc management, cpa team, seo
and little old me to tell every one what to do.

the pressure is such a buzz

[Ali-v-8]

just to add.

yes you get disagreements, but like the lord of the rings, you should always have one ring to control them all.

final say sits with me when plans are made because ultimately I am responsible to keep client happy.

[KidsBeeHappy]

Would you ask an electrician to design a house? Would you ask a plumber to build your extension? Are you happy to have a chippy signing off your electrical certificate.

Would you feel that a Jack of all trades builder would give as smart a finish in your £20k kitchen as a finishing joiner would?

From my experience designers design well, techy bods develope well, SEO folk do good SEO, and I have yet to find one person that can do all of all three well, despite having met many who think they can.

[sirearl]

From my experience designers design well, techy bods develope well, SEO folk do good SEO, and I have yet to find one person that can do all of all three well, despite having met many who think they can.

Oh my gawd its a website.

Not an interplanetary space craft.?:p

Earl

[Tej]

Would you ask an electrician to design a house? Would you ask a plumber to build your extension? Are you happy to have a chippy signing off your electrical certificate.

Would you feel that a Jack of all trades builder would give as smart a finish in your £20k kitchen as a finishing joiner would?

From my experience designers design well, techy bods develope well, SEO folk do good SEO, and I have yet to find one person that can do all of all three well, despite having met many who think they can.

Welll we do have the worlds best builder in this very forum.. and he can plumb too.. proof provided only today.:D:D

But.. I see your point:)

[Codefixer]

I'd be wary of using two independent companies for both SE0 and PPC.

That'll probably get me slated but IMHO I think there is such a wealth of information that can be gained from both campaigns that can improve each other that a company that offers both, or companies that can work together and share information is much better than running two independent campaigns.

I also think that there are so many disciplines and skillsets needed to run a successful online business that it's imperative that an individual has a tight network of specialists that they can rely on to work on a project. No individual no matter how talented or how hard they work can work in isolation.

If separate companies are running the design, the SEO, the PPC then someone needs to take overall charge and make sure that all the companies are pulling in the right direction.

[Colin Parker]

If separate companies are running the design, the SEO, the PPC then someone needs to take overall charge and make sure that all the companies are pulling in the right direction.

I agree entirely.

The problem is who takes overall charge if the business owner is not capable of 'project managing' the campaign?

If you appoint one of the specialists as the project manager it is almost guaranteed that the other two or three will question that person's ability to direct them.

I think independent IM specialists would offer a better service to their clients and secure bigger contracts if they formed JV's between themselves.

Who should be the project manager? The person with direct response marketing and sales experience. Why? Because that person is driven not solely by design, not solely by traffic, and not solely by technical perfection but solely by sales conversion and profits. This person will research the market, identify the opportunities, create a USP and continually test and measure the campaign performance. He/she will direct how the site is designed, the keywords to be optimised, the format of the copy and the structure of any PPC campaign.

IMO the biggest single reason why businesses fail to achieve a satisfactory ROI from IM is because their campaign is fragmented, disjointed and lacking in direction. Using independent IM specialists who are not working in tandem is the root of the problem.

Colin Parker

[awebapart.com]

Web design, PPC, SEO, copywriting ... does anybody do it all?
Yes. Some of those companies going the DIY route for their web presence do it all themselves. These are companies whose main skill doesn't have anything to do with web presence but is the skill of their own trade, accountancy, bookkeeping, pr, cleaning, gardening, etc. Some might even do a decent job of it for their purposes. So it is not unreasonable to think that there are web companies out there that offer it all too, and perhaps some who don't do too bad a job for the level of clients they take on.

Out of the skills list mentioned in the thread title, there is no mention of software development or hosting.

The former, software development, is not a skill that people already have to a certain extent (unlike copyrighting, lets face it everyone here can write english to some extent, and most business people should have some sales communication skills verbal and written), software development is a technical skill that takes time to acquire even for a mediocre level of competence. But out of the thousands of business websites out there, how many require software development? Not many compared to the usual brochure style website or websites using off-the-shelf systems. But since other people going the DIY route can do the other tasks listed in the thread title, why wouldn't developers be able to this too? Developers should have more chance of doing web design, PPC, SEO since these skills have a technical aspect (web design and graphic design is computer software based), and as for communication skills like copyrighting, a developer who cannot communicate is not a good developer, since development requires communication skills, design spec documents, understanding requirements documents, etc.

The latter, hosting, is something everyone should be outsourcing to a hosting company with a hosting data centre, don't try to host your website on your own PC in the office!

[awebapart.com]

lets face it everyone here can write english to some extent
Before someone points out the irony of my bad grammar here, I'll correct it myself:

let's face it, everyone here can write English to some extent

[sirearl]

Who should be the project manager? The person with direct response marketing and sales experience. Why? Because that person is driven not solely by design, not solely by traffic, and not solely by technical perfection but solely by sales conversion and profits. This person will research the market, identify the opportunities, create a USP and continually test and measure the campaign performance. He/she will direct how the site is designed, the keywords to be optimised, the format of the copy and the structure of any PPC campaign.



Colin Parker

100% agree sales is what its about for the majority of sites and the guy who knows how to make it happen is A No 1.

Earl

[directmarketingadvice]

Who should be the project manager? The person with direct response marketing and sales experience. Why? Because that person is driven not solely by design, not solely by traffic, and not solely by technical perfection but solely by sales conversion and profits. This person will research the market, identify the opportunities, create a USP and continually test and measure the campaign performance. He/she will direct how the site is designed, the keywords to be optimised, the format of the copy and the structure of any PPC campaign.

If that's the case, the person is driving the two things that make money: marketing and innovation.

"Business, because of its purpose, has just two functions, & only two: marketing and innovation. Marketing & Innovation make money. Everything else is a cost." - Peter Drucker

So, the question is: while this is going on, what is the business owner doing?

Are they doing low level management stuff - managing staff, inventory levels, making sure the orders are going out - while the marketing manager is the person running the important part of the business?

Steve

[sirearl]

This is a stupid statement .It of course may apply to the car industry and some techno industries But certainly should not be a generalisation.

Besides last I heard General motors were in big trouble.

"Business, because of its purpose, has just two functions, & only two: marketing and innovation. Marketing & Innovation make money. Everything else is a cost." - Peter Drucker

Earl

[Colin Parker]

If that's the case, the person is driving the two things that make money: marketing and innovation.

So, the question is: while this is going on, what is the business owner doing?

Are they doing low level management stuff - managing staff, inventory levels, making sure the orders are going out - while the marketing manager is the person running the important part of the business?

Steve

Business owners should be doing whatever they are good at whilst ultimately having the final say ... seeing as it is their neck on the line.

IMO the single biggest factor which holds back the profitable exapansion of a business is a lack of experience,ability and direction in marketing and sales.

I had a meeting last week with the board of one of the UK's top 3 UPVC window fabricators who also have operations in the US and Europe. The two founders (still working in the company) are joiners and the business has grown from making softwood windows in a garage to where it is today.

Their business will have grown not because they were great joiners but because they employed skilled marketing and sales people to drive up volume while they concentrated on the 'nuts and bolts' side of the business that they understood.

Did they outsource marketing and sales to independent specialists? No. So why do the likes of Scott Copy believe that by bringing IM under one roof you 'dilute' the quality of the various skills? Beats me!

Colin Parker

[directmarketingadvice]

This is a stupid statement .It of course may apply to the car industry and some techno industries But certainly should not be a generalisation.

Besides last I heard General motors were in big trouble.

"Business, because of its purpose, has just two functions, & only two: marketing and innovation. Marketing & Innovation make money. Everything else is a cost." - Peter Drucker

Earl

I have no idea what any of that means.

Would you care to suggest why it's "stupid"?

Ideally, for once, by coming up with something that's concrete and substantial and can be discussed properly, rather than the usual huffing and puffing.

Steve

[sirearl]

I have no idea what any of that means.

Would you care to suggest why it's "stupid"?

Ideally, for once, by coming up with something that's concrete and substantial and can be discussed properly, rather than the usual huffing and puffing.

Steve

OXO.............

Earl

[Scott-CopyandDesign]

The former, software development, is not a skill that people already have to a certain extent (unlike copyrighting, lets face it everyone here can write english to some extent, and most business people should have some sales communication skills verbal and written),

Copywriting takes years to learn, so that's not true at all I'm afraid.

I took a recent clients' copy (which was 'English to some extent' and rather decent) which was converting at 4.7%. I then wrote new copy, he put it on his site and the conversion rate went up to 9.78%.

I more than doubled his sales just using text.

So, if you're going to write copy which squeezes such a huge amount of sales from traffic (on a permanent basis) then that isn't a skill people already have to a certain extent. It goes much, MUCH deeper than just having some competent level of skill in English.

Also, I'm assuming that 'web design' and 'web development' are referred to as the same thing in this situation. It wouldn't be much of an all-in-one package if if the designer just did a graphical design of the site and then left the actual coding to someone outside the 'team'.



Anyway back to the subject. Someone who leads a 'team' like this needs to be focused on sales I agree. However, I don't think there's such a general issue as there are few reasons for conflict and 'separate directions'. The individual specialists just need to have one focus in mind before they even begin: sales.

The web designer should create a nice looking site, but also realise that sales are an absolute priority. Any good designer should realise this.

The PPC chap should just do his thing. There is little conflict if you leave a specialist to create a campaign on Adwords. Web designers, copywriters and SEO's shouldn't need to interfere unless the PPC specialist is incompetent.

The copywriter should focus on creating copy which maximises the websites' sales conversion rate. Copy should be created to fit in with the design of the site which should also be optimised for sales.

The SEO and copywriter should then compromise on the SEO of the copy. The copy needs to be keyword rich without severely damaging the sales conversion rate. This is the only situation where I can see possible conflict arise. It depends if the SEO wants to make the text sound robotic, or if the copywriter is too stubborn to allow change to his original optimised piece.

At the end of the day this all comes down to the individual people. The project will fair a lot better if you have a team which already has a focus on sales and understands what is important. A good team of specialists may not even need a manager if they agree on a common goal.

Any good specialists will understand the importance of the other elements and not interfere in another specialists field of work (for example, a web designer trying to give me advice on how to write copy). If someone doesn't understand this, then they shouldn't be in the team.

It's when you have poor quality team members that conflicts and misdirection begin to happen. A designer might be too design-focused and completely ignore the fact that the site needs to produce the highest number of sales (a bad designer in my opinion), or an SEO specialist might want to stuff the site with so many keywords that it ruins the readability (which is, in my opinion, also a bad SEO).

[directmarketingadvice]

OXO.............

Earl

Typically useless answer to a perfectly reasonable question.

Steve

[Colin Parker]

[quote=Scott-CopyandDesign;1032799]

The copywriter should focus on creating copy which maximises the websites' sales conversion rate. Copy should be created to fit in with the design of the site which should also be optimised for sales.

quote]

"Copy should be created to fit in with the design of the site which should also be optimised for sales."

Are you serious?

Copy should be created from identifying who the target customer is, what their wants and needs are, what USP's you can offer and what call to action you believe they will respond to.

You THEN design the site, write the copy and plan the SEO and PPC.

Colin Parker

[sirearl]

Typically useless answer to a perfectly reasonable question.

Steve


OXO has not done any inovation to its product since 1910.

Earl

[Scott-CopyandDesign]

"Copy should be created to fit in with the design of the site which should also be optimised for sales."

Are you serious?

Copy should be created from identifying who the target customer is, what their wants and needs are, what USP's you can offer and what call to action you believe they will respond to.

You THEN design the site, write the copy and plan the SEO and PPC.

Colin Parker

Yes I am. Are you?

So you create the copy, then design the site, then write the copy (again, somehow) and then the SEO and PPC?

Anyway, you misunderstood me. I didn't write that like they would do it in order. You shouldn't just make a website and then say to the copywriter "That's what you have to work with. Good luck". The end result should be a design which is optimised for sales, and copy which fits in with the design.

I think you've misunderstood what I mean by 'fit in with the design of the site' as well. You don't write copy based on the look of the site. You certainly take everything you mentioned there and use it to write copy.

However, the actual copy needs to be formatted on the site itself. Headline sizes, fonts, colours, spacing and etc need to be look good, but also need to be optimised for sales and readability. This is why it's important for a web designer to understand sales and for a copywriter to create copy which fits in perfectly with the design.

[directmarketingadvice]

OXO has not done any inovation to its product since 1910.

Earl

Have they done any marketing? Yes they have.

And... we draw what conclusion from this example? Do we assume they must be using something other than marketing and innovation to make money? If so, what is it?

Steve

[sirearl]

Have they done any marketing? Yes they have.

And... we draw what conclusion from this example?

Steve


I suspect it should have read:

"marketing or inovation"

Not

"Marketing and inovation"

Earl

[Scott-CopyandDesign]

OXO has not done any inovation to its product since 1910.

Earl

Who said the innovation is only within the product?

Go and check out the OXO marketing campaigns over the last 100 years.

Also look at the changes in branding and design of the packaging.

Also look at the innovative introduction of new products to their line to increase business profits:

The best known flavour of stock cube is the original beef (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beef) cube, but now, in addition to beef, Oxo produces chicken (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken) and ethnic flavoured cubes, e.g. Chinese Recipe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuisine_of_China) and Indian Recipe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_cuisine).

[directmarketingadvice]

I suspect it should have read:

"marketing or inovation"

Not

"Marketing and inovation"

Earl

No, it makes perfect sense with "and".

(Compare it with the sentence "Rio Ferdinand and Wayne Rooney play for Manchester United" - it doesn't mean they both have to play in every game or that one can't play if the other is missing.)

Also, to go back to the oxo example, what makes you think they haven't innovated in all this time?

Could you have bought these 99 years ago:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_9Cjc4KpA5i4/SFblLKfpS0I/AAAAAAAAAcQ/ZORxYa_6h9k/s400/OXO.JPG

I don't think so.

Steve

Edit: was typing that when Scott posted. We're both making the same point.

[sirearl]

Who said the innovation is only within the product?

Go and check out the OXO marketing campaigns over the last 100 years.

Also look at the changes in branding and design of the packaging.

Also look at the innovative introduction of new products to their line to increase business profits:

Oi you promised to ignore my posts.:eek:

Can't be trusted.;)

I was refering to the good old OXO cube Product not change in 100 years.

The idea that inovation is needed to increase sales is a non starter across the board.

Now where's me Marmite.:rolleyes:

Earl

[Colin Parker]

Yes I am. Are you?

So you create the copy, then design the site, then write the copy (again, somehow) and then the SEO and PPC?

Anyway, you misunderstood me. I didn't write that like they would do it in order. You shouldn't just make a website and then say to the copywriter "That's what you have to work with. Good luck". The end result should be a design which is optimised for sales, and copy which fits in with the design.

I think you've misunderstood what I mean by 'fit in with the design of the site' as well. You don't write copy based on the look of the site. You certainly take everything you mentioned there and use it to write copy.

However, the actual copy needs to be formatted on the site itself. Headline sizes, fonts, colours, spacing and etc need to be look good, but also need to be optimised for sales and readability. This is why it's important for a web designer to understand sales and for a copywriter to create copy which fits in perfectly with the design.

I did not misunderstand what you wrote ... you were not clear in what you meant.

Not a good trait for a copywriter ...

Colin Parker

[Colin Parker]

OXO has not done any inovation to its product since 1910.

Earl

Earl should know ... he was there at the launch :)

[Scott-CopyandDesign]

Oi you promised to ignore my posts.:eek:

Can't be trusted.;)

I was refering to the good old OXO cube Product not change in 100 years.

The idea that inovation is needed to increase sales is a non starter across the board.

Now where's me Marmite.:rolleyes:

Earl

I can see your posts when people quote them, otherwise I get this nice big " This user is on your Ignore List."

I know you were, but that quote isn't referring to sales, it's referring to business overall.

You've misunderstood it though. You don't need innovation to increase sales. Look at the quote:

"Business, because of its purpose, has just two functions, & only two: marketing and innovation. Marketing & Innovation make money. Everything else is a cost." - Peter Drucker

Where did it say anything about increasing sales?

Look at the costs of marketing and innovation. They're the only two things which make money. Innovation creates products (the OXO cube was created itself by innovation) and marketing sells them. If you didn't have innovation then you wouldn't have the products, and if you didn't have marketing of any type, then no one would know that they exist (even clothes on a rail in a shop is marketing).

Also, everything else is a cost. Name a business expense which is directly responsible for making money which doesn't fall into the realm of innovation or marketing.

I did not misunderstand what you wrote ... you were not clear in what you meant.

Not a good trait for a copywriter ...

Colin Parker

Do you get so angry in these threads that you feel like you have to have a personal jab at people when they disagree? I answered your original question and I'm simply joining in with the debate.

Anyway, you did misunderstand, but I was happy to clarify my point.

[directmarketingadvice]

The idea that inovation is needed to increase sales is a non starter across the board.

As Scott said, you don't need innovation to increase sales. You can do that with marketing alone.

However, if the company that owned Oxo wanted to increase sales, it would help if they innovated by creating related products. Because that would give them more products to market.

Innovation can take many forms - e.g.

- Cutting costs through improving internal systems

- Increasing the value of your propositions (giving the customer more for their money)

- Creating more products to sell (or stocking more products)

These either lower costs or increase sales. And, lowering costs and increasing sales are the ways to increase profits.

Steve

[dave_webb]

I think its better to get the best of each rather than people you can do all but not as good.

[Colin Parker]

Do you get so angry in these threads that you feel like you have to have a personal jab at people when they disagree? I answered your original question and I'm simply joining in with the debate.

Anyway, you did misunderstand, but I was happy to clarify my point.

Whoa ... chill out.

A difference of opinion nothing else. You believe I misunderstood and I believe that if I did that was because you did not make yourself clear.

Angry? Moi? :)

Colin Parker

[DotNetWebs]

...lets face it everyone here can write english to some extent, and most business people should have some sales communication skills verbal and written...

Copywriting takes years to learn, so that's not true at all I'm afraid...

How long have you been copywriting Scott?

I seem to remember your joined this forum as a schoolboy just a few years ago. I also remember you trying and promoting various different businesses before settling on copywriting. Your user name was only recently changed to reflect this.

You are clearly a a talented individual, but I think you are going a bit far by dismissing Paul's comment and implying that you have 'years' of experience in copywriting and that your skills will automatically be superior to anyone else in businesses who chooses to give themselves a title other than "Copywriter".

Regards

Dotty

[Scott-CopyandDesign]

How long have you been copywriting Scott?

I seem to remember your joined this forum as a schoolboy just a few years ago. I also remember you trying and promoting various different businesses before settling on copywriting. Your user name was only recently changed to reflect this.

You are clearly a a talented individual, but I think you are going a bit far by dismissing Paul's comment and implying that you have 'years' of experience in copywriting and that your skills will automatically be superior to anyone else in businesses who chooses to give themselves a title other than "Copywriter".

Regards

Dotty

I'm not really going a bit far and I stand by what I've said.

How long have I been copywriting? About three years. During the past three years I've done nothing but study copywriting, writing and sales psychology. This is three years, none stop. And believe me, I've never ran out of things to learn about this one particular subject.

Now, tell me, if it's taken me three solid years, 30+ books from the top copywriters, 10 seminars and over 600+ pieces of copy written to get to the stage I am now, how can a normal business person achieve the same? If I'm in my early 20's, does that automatically mean that an older, wiser business person can write copy better than I can even though I've spent 3 years focusing my working days on it?

Don't underestimate over 8,000 hours of solid learning and experience about one particular subject.

I'm not sure if you actually have a specific skill in anything, but for anyone who has, they know that it can take years to master something. Web designers can spend years learning the ropes and I fully respect their ability. Do I think I can make as good a website when I haven't focused on learning web design like they have? Of course not.

If someone has spent years focusing entirely on copywriting and sales psychology, then I don't think my skills are superior - no matter what sort of title the person chooses.

To me, awebaparts post implied that copywriting is not on the same level of web development in-terms of skill, and that every business person can write copy to some extent. I was suggesting that people can write run-of-the-mill copy, but they could easily be permanently halving their potential sales.

[DotNetWebs]

...I'm in my early 20's, does that automatically mean that an older, wiser business person can write copy better than I can even though I've spent 3 years focusing my working days on it?

Don't underestimate over 8,000 hours of solid learning and experience about one particular subject...

I have just looked at your intro post and you either 19 or JUST over 20.

You clearly have a lot of talent and experience for someone that age but I will also stand by what I said:

I think you are going a bit far by dismissing Paul's comment and implying that you have 'years' of experience in copywriting and that your skills will automatically be superior to anyone else in businesses who chooses to give themselves a title other than "Copywriter".

Regards

Dotty

[Scott-CopyandDesign]

I have just looked at your intro post and you either 19 or JUST over 20.

You clearly have a lot of talent and experience for someone that age but I will also stand by what I said:

I think you are going a bit far by dismissing Paul's comment and implying that you have 'years' of experience in copywriting and that your skills will automatically be superior to anyone else in businesses who chooses to give themselves a title other than "Copywriter".

Regards

Dotty

I said over 20's didn't I? Can I just ask why you're suddenly having a go at me about personal information? What does my age have to do with anything? I've had dozens of happy clients over the past few years. Why are you trying to damage my credibility on a public forum for pretty much no reason whatsoever?

Sometimes I don't know why I bother giving my input into debates like this. :rolleyes:

You can stand by what you said all you like, but you are wrong. If someone hasn't spent years learning about writing and sales psychology with thousands of pages worth of writing experience, then I'm going to write sales copy better than they are. All good copywriters will. Age has absolutely nothing to do with it - unless a person is 13 and unable to write proper English.

If a person has had decades worth of business experience, and in that time have spent a total sum of many years learning about copywriting and sales psychology, then I don't think I'm better than them at all. It's all relevant. There are a few business people on here who are probably just as good as I am, yet they don't make a living as a copywriter. These are few and far between though in reality.

Every one of my clients is an experienced business person, and I always boost their sales up (sometimes by double as I mentioned in my earlier post) so there is obviously something to this. It's a part of successful Internet marketing which should not be underestimated. That's my original point.

[DotNetWebs]

...What does my age have to do with anything?...

Only because you keep going on about your 'years' of experience.

I remember your posts in the past were not focused on 'just' copywriting. This is a direction you have taken since joining, and having been given advice by, UKBF.

I am not trying to damage your credibility, I have said twice already I think you are very talented.

I just think you should acknowledge the point that Paul was trying to make:

"..most business people should have some sales communication skills verbal and written..."

In other words many business people have good communication skills. These skills may have been acquired at university or in industry, they may not formally call themselves copywriters but I am sure that many of them would be capable of writing copy for their own field.

Regards

Dotty

[directmarketingadvice]

I just think you should acknowledge the point that Paul was trying to make:

"..most business people should have some sales communication skills verbal and written..."

In other words many business people have good communication skills. These skills may have been acquired at university or in industry, they may not formally call themselves copywriters but I am sure that many of them would be capable of writing copy for their own field.

If you go back to Paul's original comment:

(BTW, I'm not having a personal crack at Paul. I think his point was an interesting one)

lets face it everyone here can write english to some extent, and most business people should have some sales communication skills verbal and written), software development is a technical skill that takes time to acquire even for a mediocre level of competence. But out of the thousands of business websites out there, how many require software development? Not many compared to the usual brochure style website or websites using off-the-shelf systems. But since other people going the DIY route can do the other tasks listed in the thread title, why wouldn't developers be able to this too? Developers should have more chance of doing web design, PPC, SEO since these skills have a technical aspect (web design and graphic design is computer software based), and as for communication skills like copyrighting, a developer who cannot communicate is not a good developer, since development requires communication skills, design spec documents, understanding requirements documents, etc.

The latter, hosting, is something everyone should be outsourcing to a hosting company with a hosting data centre, don't try to host your website on your own PC in the office!

It's so full of grammatical and punctuation errors that it's an excellent argument for why many business owners shouldn't be writing copy.

Look at that last sentence. It has 56 words in it. It just goes on and on.

(and doesn't really say what he's trying to say)

Steve

[awebapart.com]

I took a recent clients' copy (which was 'English to some extent' and rather decent) which was converting at 4.7%. I then wrote new copy, he put it on his site and the conversion rate went up to 9.78%.

I more than doubled his sales just using text.

So, if you're going to write copy which squeezes such a huge amount of sales from traffic (on a permanent basis) then that isn't a skill people already have to a certain extent.
Yes it is! And you've just made this fact very clear in your story. Your client, without the help of a copywriter, did have copywriting skills to a certain extent, and that extent equated to a 4.7% conversion rate. You probably have more copywriting skills than your client, and once your work was added this equated to improving his conversion rate to 9.78%.

Any area of any website can be improved, and if a certain areas need improving then the supplier either improves their knowledge in this area or they bring in someone who has more knowledge.

Also, I'm assuming that 'web design' and 'web development' are referred to as the same thing in this situation.
That is a wrong assumption. Web design is very different to web development. Web design could just be putting a static HTML web design together with a WYSIWYG package like Dreamweaver. Web development is software development, designing and writing code, and even this could be very different depending upon the type of code. Page description language coding like HTML/CSS is very different from other software coding like Javascript, server-side development environments like PHP/ASP.NET, or database design and development with SQL.

[Scott-CopyandDesign]

Only because you keep going on about your 'years' of experience.

Which I have. I wouldn't say it if I didn't have it. Also, due to the nature of copywriting, I wouldn't even be able to write sales copy which produces good results without solid years of learning and experience. It takes years - trust me.

I've spent three years learning about copywriting, more-so in the last two years or so where I spent 10 hours a day learning and writing for clients.

As hard as it is for you to believe, I have years of experience. Also, it's how you spend that experience which is most important.

I remember your posts in the past were not focused on 'just' copywriting. This is a direction you have taken since joining, and having been given advice by, UKBF.Which was almost four years ago now, remember? I've tried a whole load of things whilst I've been writing which has helped me learn a great deal. A copywriter can probably do a better job if he/she has a bit of experience in starting and running successful businesses.

"..most business people should have some sales communication skills verbal and written..."

In other words many business people have good communication skills. These skills may have been acquired at university or in industry, they may not formally call themselves copywriters but I am sure that many of them would be capable of writing copy for their own field.

Regards

You've chopped off half the quote to fit your own argument.

Out of the skills list mentioned in the thread title, there is no mention of software development or hosting.

The former, software development, is not a skill that people already have to a certain extent (unlike copyrighting, lets face it everyone here can write english to some extent, and most business people should have some sales communication skills verbal and written),

Sales copy isn't just about communication. You could write a piece of text which reads well, flows well and makes a lot of sense. However, the vast majority of website visitors may not read past the first three words. Copy just just 'work' because it's copy.

Being able to write good copy (copy which actually sells and doesn't half your potential sales) is not something people naturally have to a certain extent. It depends how much you value your sales conversion rate and the line between a poor outcome and a good outcome.

Yes it is! And you've just made this fact very clear in your story. Your client, without the help of a copywriter, did have copywriting skills to a certain extent, and that extent equated to a 4.7% conversion rate. You probably have more copywriting skills than your client, and once your work was added this equated to improving his conversion rate to 9.78%.

Any area of any website can be improved, and if a certain areas need improving then the supplier either improves their knowledge in this area or they bring in someone who has more knowledge.

Just because one client actually wrote some original copy which was not bad, it doesn't automatically mean that every business owner has some sort of natural ability to write actual sales copy. Copy isn't sales copy just because someone labels it as such. It has to actually sell, and a lot of text I see doesn't do that.

I've just had a recent client who's sales conversion rate is 0.2%. The design is good, the products are good, but the conversion is very poor. Would this qualify as having skills 'to a certain extent'? If everyone has natural skills, then why don't we just give a total novice a copy of Dreamweaver to make a site? It'll look horrendous, but I bet the person can get at least something on the page which qualifies as a 'web site' when it's put on the web.

People can do everything to a certain extent. Someone could start up an Adwords campaign, add a back-link for SEO or design an awful looking site. The results of these could easily be on-par with copy written by someone with no copywriting experience (terrible). Obviously, if they spend a few hours learning the basics, then they are no longer on a completely novice level (you should have seen the first piece of copy I wrote when I was 13 years of age and trying to start my first business. It wouldn't sell £10 for £5).

Proper copy is vastly underestimated. If you don't value a permanent doubling in sales as a specialist service on the same level as a web designer, SEO or PPC subject, then I really don't know what to say.

That is a wrong assumption. Web design is very different to web development. Web design could just be putting a static HTML web design together with a WYSIWYG package like Dreamweaver. Web development is software development, designing and writing code, and even this could be very different depending upon the type of code. Page description language coding like HTML/CSS is very different from other software coding like Javascript, server-side development environments like PHP/ASP.NET, or database design and development with SQL.

It isn't my assumption. It's the assumption people have made about this thread. I really doubt Colin was only talking about a web designer which only creates the graphical piece and no coding. If he was, then why are we even talking about an all-in-one package for Internet marketing?

I agree that web design and web development are very different. However, in general, people tend to group them together into web design.

[sirearl]

Which I have. I wouldn't say it if I didn't have it. Also, due to the nature of copywriting, I wouldn't even be able to write sales copy which produces good results without solid years of learning and experience. It takes years - trust me.



Oh come on Laddie 3 weeks of reading the right books is about what it takes.

Its all been done by the master wordsmiths.

You should find a better library.

And no I don't trust you you keep peeking at my posts.;)

Earl

[DotNetWebs]

...Which was almost four years ago now, remember?...

Hmmm

Here is a thread from 2 1/2 years go where you were advised to engage a copywriter:

http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=33758

...Funnily enough I actually wrote the copy :p. However I have realised quite a few mistakes now. Based on advice in this thread and some studies I've read I'm going to completely re-write the copy for the website. It's likely however that I might end up outsourcing the copy for clients...

You have clearly come a LONG way since then and I don't doubt your current skills but I don't think you are doing yourself any favors by continually exaggerating your experience.

Regards

Dotty

[awebapart.com]

It's so full of grammatical and punctuation errors that it's an excellent argument for why many business owners shouldn't be writing copy.
Thanks for that evaluation Steve, but do consider that I have other priorities and there is only a finite amount of time I am prepared to spend on this forum. I did make a start (http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=131049&page=4#post1032748) in correcting my English to demonstrate that I was already aware of my bad grammar (and the irony of it) in my rushed post.

I think I'm going to bow out of this thread now since it will probably end up as another one of those "my trade is more important than your trade" pointless internet argument forum (PIAF) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFKHaFJzUb4) threads of late.

The original point I was trying to make, was that there are plenty of normal companies doing all of this (web design, PPC, SEO, copywriting) for themselves via the DIY route. So before any web presence suppliers here drown in a sea of their own self-importance, realise that in the world of small business, none of us are that vital or important in the grand scale of things, for the most part we are "nice to haves" not "must haves".

[directmarketingadvice]

Thanks for that evaluation Steve, but do consider that I have other priorities and there is only a finite amount of time I am prepared to spend on this forum.

OK. But I do see similar errors on your homepage. So, I assumed it wasn't just down to the post being rushed.

Steve

[awebapart.com]

OK. But I do see similar errors on your homepage. So, I assumed it wasn't just down to the post being rushed.
You will also notice my homepage stating that since July we are no longer taking on any new clients because we are running at full capacity. Again it is all down to priorities. If I felt I had the need to get more clients then I would have improved the home website text, but as it stands that text has been pretty much like that since the website started and it certainly hasn't been a problem for us getting clients. If there are copywriting rules that I am breaking then I'm quite happy to break those rules.

I would also feel uncomfortable about someone else, from a different company, writing the content for our website. I want our website content to look like it is the people from my company writing it. That way nothing changes in our communication style or brand when people eventually get in contact with us. But that's a totally different issue and probably worthy of a thread in its own right.

Copywriting is not a service we offer to clients in our sitebuilder service. Clients write their own content (we offer advice to clients on certain words for SEO purposes but that's about it).

[Scott-CopyandDesign]

Hmmm

Here is a thread from 2 1/2 years go where you were advised to engage a copywriter:

http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=33758


You have clearly come a LONG way since then and I don't doubt your current skills but I don't think you are doing yourself any favors by continually exaggerating your experience.

Regards

Dotty

What is experience Dotty? When you start doing something from day one, is that not experience?*

I don't have three years experience as a fully fledged copywriter. However, I do have experience in writing (and therefore copywriting). I've completely lost track of the amount of copy I've developed in the same year after I made that thread. Experience is a part of learning and you get better with experience, do you not?

Understandably, during my 'earlier years' of learning, I was not as good. I've spent three years gaining experience in copywriting (and I will continue to spend many more) for a reason. I've also spent a longer number of years gaining experience in marketing.

Anyway, I shall bow out of this thread as I'll no doubt be working until 3am again to get all of this work completed for my clients.


* Rhetorical question

[Colin Parker]

Scott

Now that I know you are 20 things drop into place.

I have read many of your recent posts and I am not writing in hindsight when I say that, whilst you obviously write and debate intelligently, I often get the feeling that you are showing a theoretical naivety.

However, do not take that as a criticism because I want to praise you and give you some well intentioned advice.

My first observation is that one of the biggest failings in our education system over the past 20 years has been to produce school/university leavers who cannot spell, punctuate or construct a grammatically correct sentence.

Therefore you either have a natural talent for expressing yourself in the written word or you have studied hard to self educate yourself. Either way you are to be commended.

It appears that from the age of 17 you have been involving yourself in the business world and the fact that you 'tried' a few things before settling on copywriting does not mean (as has been implied) that you have previously failed. Trying various business avenues is common of many entrepreneurs in their 30's and 40's never mind you in your teens. 'If at first you don't succeed try, try and try again' is an attitude that has made a million millionaires. So again you are to be commended.

I have no doubt that your copywriting has improved conversion for your clients and I would doubt there are a handful of 20 year olds who could put that on their CV.

But Scott ... a few words of advice.

You must not allow your intelligence, youthful enthusiasm, ambition and success to date to cloud your opinion of your still embryonic talents.

In the nicest possible way you are still 'wet behind the ears' in copywriting skills, understanding of business, knowledge of sales and marketing and a multitude of other factors. I am not saying that you already think you know it all ... but the minute you even think you are well on your way will be the minute you start going backwards.

And the other thing you must protect at all costs is your integrity.

It would appear that you have 'fudged' the issue about your age and copywriting experience and I for one on this forum will put that down to misplaced youthful exhuberance and not dishonesty. But never forget that a reputation for integrity is one of the hardest things to win and the greater your reputation the higher the moral standards you are judged by.

In summary I think you have the abilty to do exceptionally well and irrespective of my comments in the second paragraph I have enjoyed reading your posts.

My last piece of advice is don't get involved in any further debate over your past on this forum, Focus on the future. And I wish you the very best of luck.

Colin Parker

[directmarketingadvice]

You will also notice my homepage stating that since July we are no longer taking on any new clients because we are running at full capacity. Again it is all down to priorities. If I felt I had the need to get more clients then I would have improved the home website text, but as it stands that text has been pretty much like that since the website started and it certainly hasn't been a problem for us getting clients. If there are copywriting rules that I am breaking then I'm quite happy to break those rules.

I was talking about errors in English, rather than "violations" of the "copywriting rules".

To me, they undermine the idea that, because we went through school in the UK (those of us from the UK), we can write competently.

You're not the worst writer I've ever seen - pretty average, I'd say - but there are obvious mistakes in both your post and on your homepage.

The fact that you might be unaware of many of these doesn't mean they're not there.

(and the fact you've sold out your service doesn't mean you couldn't have sold out sooner - or more easily - if the copy had been better written)

And, that's the problem with so many site owners writing their own copy: they have no ability to judge copy or critique English, so they're satisfied with copy they don't know is bad.

With a strong offer, they might have a decent conversion rate. But, they'll never experience what could have been possible.

With a mediocre offer, the site isn't selling well and they have no idea why.

Steve

[sirearl]

No, it makes perfect sense with "and".

:





Afraid not, to be correct, it should read "Marketing and or innovation":p



Tut Tut Steve.;)

Earl

[directmarketingadvice]

Afraid not, to be correct, it should read "Marketing and or innovation":p

Tut Tut Steve.;)

Earl

Err, no.

Steve

[Dawg]

Now where did Paul ask for a review? Still looking...
When do unsolicited reviews morph into spam? :)

[sirearl]

Err, no.

Steve

So you have to have marketing along with innovation .?

Try telling that to the Mayor of Hiroshima.

He thought the A bomb was a great success ,yet no one advertised it in the local rag.:)

Earl

[awebapart.com]

The fact that you might be unaware of many of these doesn't mean they're not there.
I am aware that the English on my site can be improved. I am aware that the English on any site can be improved. I am aware that any other factors on any site can be improved. I am aware that no site is perfect, and as siteowners and business owners we should all strive for continuous improvement for both our sites and businesses. But all this has to be prioritised and work scheduled accordingly (where one thinks it matters the most).

I could say that I'll put it on my to do list to improve the English on the homepage, but that task is already on that list and it always will be, even after it is addressed each time in a continuous improvement cycle, it is just low down on that very long list considering and prioritising all other to-dos.

Steve, thanks for pointing out that you think the English on my site could be improved. Unfortunately due to my priorities, I am sorry that I will not be returning the favour by spending time looking at and pointing out areas where your site could be improved.

[directmarketingadvice]

So you have to have marketing along with innovation .?

No.

The quote was;

"Business, because of its purpose, has just two functions, & only two: marketing and innovation. Marketing & Innovation make money. Everything else is a cost." - Peter Drucker

Using the same structure,

"Only two British cyclists have finished in the top 4 of the general classification of the Tour de France: Robert Millar and Bradley Wiggins."

Are you suggesting that's wrong and should say:

"Only two British cyclists have finished in the top 4 of the general classification of the Tour de France: Robert Millar and/or Bradley Wiggins."

Steve

[Scott-CopyandDesign]

Scott

Now that I know you are 20 things drop into place.

I have read many of your recent posts and I am not writing in hindsight when I say that, whilst you obviously write and debate intelligently, I often get the feeling that you are showing a theoretical naivety.

However, do not take that as a criticism because I want to praise you and give you some well intentioned advice.

My first observation is that one of the biggest failings in our education system over the past 20 years has been to produce school/university leavers who cannot spell, punctuate or construct a grammatically correct sentence.

I respect that you're trying to give me constructive advice but please don't talk to me like I'm a child and that I need some form of praise to boost my self esteem. I'm running a professional business like anyone who is 20, 30, 40, 50 or 60. I've met countless people who show incredible business naivety (usually as a result of stubbornness) who are old enough to be my grandfather.

Therefore you either have a natural talent for expressing yourself in the written word or you have studied hard to self educate yourself. Either way you are to be commended.Both.

It appears that from the age of 17 you have been involving yourself in the business world and the fact that you 'tried' a few things before settling on copywriting does not mean (as has been implied) that you have previously failed. Trying various business avenues is common of many entrepreneurs in their 30's and 40's never mind you in your teens. 'If at first you don't succeed try, try and try again' is an attitude that has made a million millionaires. So again you are to be commended.I don't think I've failed at all. Every business I've created has turned over many thousands of pounds, but the potential for expansion has not been suitable for what I've planned. If anything, I've only really dabbled in other business so I could gain the experience in starting and running businesses. I quite enjoy starting them up.

Trying various business avenues is common of many entrepreneurs in their 30's and 40's never mind you in your teens. I'm not in my teens.

But Scott ... a few words of advice.

You must not allow your intelligence, youthful enthusiasm, ambition and success to date to cloud your opinion of your still embryonic talents.

In the nicest possible way you are still 'wet behind the ears' in copywriting skills, understanding of business, knowledge of sales and marketing and a multitude of other factors. I am not saying that you already think you know it all ... but the minute you even think you are well on your way will be the minute you start going backwards.:rolleyes:

Do you realise that I've actually wrote copy for businesses which can be collectively valued at a minimum of half a million pounds? Thought not.

Do you realise that 80% of websites I've seen by UKBF members have poor web copy and classic sales conversion mistakes? Thought not.

Everything I've said in every thread (including this one) is completely correct - if you choose to actually read it properly. I applaud the people who can actually understand it, as opposed to others who simply choose the parts they want to read and ignore the rest.

In the nicest possible way you are still 'wet behind the ears' in copywriting skills, understanding of business, knowledge of sales and marketing and a multitude of other factors.No I'm not. Please don't make accusations like that which can damage by credibility and damage the confidence my clients have in me. I'm dealing with a lot of peoples livelihoods here. Business owners have to pay their mortgage, feed their family and pay their bills. Their financial income is my responsibility when I take over their websites' copy and optimisations.

I have copywriting skills which can double (and on occasions triple) the sales conversion rates of many businesses operated by experienced business people. I've developed my own business to a level where I'm earning more than many business owners double my age. I've made mistakes before, but I've also seen many business owners do a lot worse (Peter Jones anyone?).

It would appear that you have 'fudged' the issue about your age and copywriting experience and I for one on this forum will put that down to misplaced youthful exhuberance and not dishonesty. But never forget that a reputation for integrity is one of the hardest things to win and the greater your reputation the higher the moral standards you are judged by.Sorry but do people actually read anything I write? I've just explained how I actually have three years of experience in copywriting. I haven't fudged anything. It isn't 'youthful exhuberance' (it's spelt exuberance) or anything which makes me sound like I don't know any better. It's ridiculous.

My last piece of advice is don't get involved in any further debate over your past on this forum, Focus on the future. And I wish you the very best of luck.

How can I avoid getting involved in any further debate if I have people openly slating my copywriting skills on a public forum due to my age? Are you that naive that you think you can pat me on the head, tell me I don't know what I'm talking about and give me a lollipop whilst I'm providing a serious service to serious clients?

With all due respect Colin your ageist attitude is naive. I'm running a professional business for large business clients. I'm not a young person trying to earn a bit of pocket money. This generalising attitude 'older' people have is one I find incredibly annoying. Do you want to know how I realise that you have it? Because you were being reasonably harsh and blunt in your previous posts, but once you've realised I'm in my early 20's, you have suddenly changed your attitude to one of praise and 'I'm not trying to put you down'. :rolleyes:

I know your post is good natured but dear me. I'm amazed you don't realise how much such a post can destroy someone's credibility when my clients are out there right now waiting for work which I'm in the process of developing.

[directmarketingadvice]

Now where did Paul ask for a review? Still looking...
When do unsolicited reviews morph into spam? :)

I guess it's when someone is trying to sell the site owner something.

But, of course, you know that... and you know why I mentioned his site. So, I'm guessing you're just trolling with that question.

Steve

[directmarketingadvice]

I think the poster before me just answered the question about spam. Though, I have to say, the massage is quite appealing.

Steve

[Colin Parker]

This generalising attitude 'older' people have is one I find incredibly annoying. Do you want to know how I realise that you have it? Because you were being reasonably harsh and blunt in your previous posts, but once you've realised I'm in my early 20's, you have suddenly changed your attitude to one of praise and 'I'm not trying to put you down'. :rolleyes:

I know your post is good natured but dear me. I'm amazed you don't realise how much such a post can destroy someone's credibility when my clients are out there right now waiting for work which I'm in the process of developing.

If ageism is knowing that a 20 year old still has a lot to learn .. I'm guilty.

And if you are 'amazed' that I don't know my post could 'destroy your credibility with your clients' ... I'm guilty again.

You must have some VERY sensitive clients that's all I can say.

Colin Parker

[Dawg]

I guess it's when someone is trying to sell the site owner something.

But, of course, you know that... and you know why I mentioned his site. So, I'm guessing you're just trolling with that question.

Steve

No not trolling, raising a valid question as to why you are criticizing another posters site without being asked to do it.

Why are you doing it? Why are you bringing attention to minor blemishes after a reply had been given as to why they are there? And why of a site not even under discussion here?

Is your opinion so grand, so elevated that it transcends good manners and basic netiquette? So important that criticism of it is trolling, or maybe flaming?

You seem to like to portray yourself as a voice of reason: what is the reason for doing this?

[Rusty]

Scott, I think that Colin made a very measured and constructive post and did not in any way undermine your very obvious talent, either deliberately or otherwise.

I would hope that all your customers are very well aware of your age and experience and will have done their due dilegence to ensure that you were up to the job in question.

Nobody has slated your skills because of your age, on the contrary they have applauded you.

It is, unfortunately, your age which is preventing you from taking the well intentioned comments on the chin which a more mature person would be able to do.

Just my 2c worth.

Kerry

[Scott-CopyandDesign]

Scott, I think that Colin made a very measured and constructive post and did not in any way undermine your very obvious talent, either deliberately or otherwise.

I would hope that all your customers are very well aware of your age and experience and will have done their due dilegence to ensure that you were up to the job in question.

Nobody has slated your skills because of your age, on the contrary they have applauded you.

It is, unfortunately, your age which is preventing you from taking the well intentioned comments on the chin which a more mature person would be able to do.

Just my 2c worth.

Kerry

Your post is the exact type of post which prevents me from 'taking the well intentioned comments on the chin'.

I know Colin's post is of a good nature and I take his nice comments on board, so thank you Colin for wishing me the best for the future.

However, I'm trying to run a business, with proper business clients, and I really, really do not appreciate someone stating that I'm 'wet behind the ears' in regards to copywriting, marketing and sales. I've spent most of the past year advising other business owners on their copywriting, marketing and sales. I hope Colin didn't take offence to my post and, at least on some level, realised my frustrations.

I would hope that all your customers are very well aware of your age and experience and will have done their due dilegence to ensure that you were up to the job in question.No, they aren't aware of my age because I have absolutely no reason to tell them. Why should I? Do 40 and 50 year old specialists tell their clients how old they are? Do you tell your clients how old you are?

Saying that you 'hope clients are aware of my age' proves that you have the same naive ageist attitude Kerry. Why do you hope they know I'm 20? Is this because you think 20 year old's automatically have a lower level of skill and the clients should be prepared for this?

They have all carried out the necessary due diligence. Many clients ask for examples of my work and I give it to them. This has nothing to do with how old I am.

Nobody has slated your skills because of your age, on the contrary they have applauded you. Lets be realistic Kerry. People do it all the time. I've had it every since I started my first business at the age of 12. Many people make an awful lot of assumptions when they hear about someone's age. A lot of people view it as a risk and go elsewhere.

It is, unfortunately, your age which is preventing you from taking the well intentioned comments on the chin which a more mature person would be able to do.Perhaps I'm just a bit fed up of those kind of comments when I'd rather be treated like any other person (because I AM just like any other person). I provide skills and results comparable to that of any copywriter at any age. I'm going to defend myself when someone says I'm 'wet behind the ears' and naive in regards to my core skill. I won't gloss over it just because someone has chose to gave me a few compliments in the same post.

Would you stand around and say nothing if someone approached you on a public forum and said you're naive, wet behind the ears in regards to SEO and don't know much about it?

Colin I've sent you a PM (a positive one I promise).

[sirearl]

No, they aren't aware of my age because I have absolutely no reason to tell them. Why should I? Do 40 and 50 year old specialists tell their clients how old they are? Do you tell your clients how old you are?

Saying that you 'hope clients are aware of my age' proves that you have the same naive ageist attitude Kerry. Why do you hope they know I'm 20? Is this because you think 20 year old's automatically have a lower level of skill and the clients should be prepared for this?

They have all carried out the necessary due diligence. Many clients ask for examples of my work and I give it to them. This has nothing to do with how old I am.



Have to agree with Scott on this one .

Some very patronizing posts since his age was divulged.

Its the work that counts nought else.

Age does not give you intelligence, it does give you experience.

But sometimes it may result in giving experience that repeats the same mistakes over and over again.

Earl

[Rusty]

and I really, really do not appreciate someone stating that I'm 'wet behind the ears' in regards to copywriting, marketing and sales. I don't think Colin did suggest that you are wet behind the ears with regards to copywriting, marketing and sales specifically, in fact he went out of his way to compliment your skills, he just, like most of us, is aware that there are just some things that only time and experience can deliver.

No, they aren't aware of my age because I have absolutely no reason to tell them. Why should I? Do 40 and 50 year old specialists tell their clients how old they are? The point is why do you feel the need to not tell them?


Do you tell your clients how old you are? Not specifically, however I don't need to as I think my maturity will tell them I'm no spring chicken.

Saying that you 'hope clients are aware of my age' proves that you have the same naive ageist attitude Kerry. Why do you hope they know I'm 20? Me thinks thou doth protest too much.

Is this because you think 20 year old's automatically have a lower level of skill and the clients should be prepared for this? Not at all, I think your work should speak for itself

Would you stand around and say nothing if someone approached you on a public forum and said you're naive, wet behind the ears in regards to SEO and don't know much about it? The difference here is that I don't profess to be anything other than 'wet behind the ears' and I am in my mid forties.

As far as agism goes, I, like Colin, will hold my hands up and say yes, guilty as charged.

Kerry

[Scott-CopyandDesign]

I don't think Colin did suggest that you are wet behind the ears with regards to copywriting, marketing and sales specifically, in fact he went out of his way to compliment your skills, he just, like most of us, is aware that there are just some things that only time and experience can deliver.

In the nicest possible way you are still 'wet behind the ears' in copywriting skills, understanding of business, knowledge of sales and marketing and a multitude of other factors.

The point is why do you feel the need to not tell them?

The exact same reason you feel the need to not tell them.

Not specifically, however I don't need to as I think my maturity will tell them I'm no spring chicken.

So you think all of my correspondence and communication with my clients makes me come across as young and immature? :rolleyes:

I've never been asked my age when I've carried out work for any of my clients. This is for the exact same reason why you have never been asked.


As far as agism goes, I, like Colin, will hold my hands up and say yes, guilty as charged.

Kerry

Well at least you admit it. :rolleyes:

[directmarketingadvice]

No not trolling, raising a valid question as to why you are criticizing another posters site without being asked to do it.

Why are you doing it?

If I made a post claiming that "it is easy to set up databases, so there's no need to hire people to do it" for you... but my site had lots of DB error messages, I'd expect that to be brought up by web programmers as a counter to my own argument.

IMO, that would be a fair way to make the point that pro DB people do a better job that D-I-Yers.

Paul made the comments:

"lets face it everyone here can write english to some extent"

and

"as for communication skills like copyrighting, a developer who cannot communicate is not a good developer"

I pointed out his post contained many errors in English. Paul replied that:

"I have other priorities and there is only a finite amount of time I am prepared to spend on this forum. I did make a start in correcting my English to demonstrate that I was already aware of my bad grammar (and the irony of it) in my rushed post."

i.e. suggesting that he was able to write well when he takes the time.

I then brought up his website homepage as a counter-example to that.

Now, as far as I'm concerned, this was a reasonable continuation of a discussion. And I don't know why you have a problem with this.

Is your opinion so grand, so elevated that it transcends good manners and basic netiquette?

I've been on this forum for over 4 years. Do I have a track record of bringing up people's websites a propos of nothing? Or for petty point scoring?

No, I don't.

For once it was relevant and it was brought up. And it was brought up to make a wider point, rather than scoring points against Paul.

Steve

[sirearl]

Not specifically, however I don't need to as I think my maturity will tell them I'm no spring chicken.

The difference here is that I don't profess to be anything other than 'wet behind the ears' and I am in my mid forties.


Kerry

Not really unless people see you ,they can not ascertain your age either by voice or the written word.

As a matter of interest some of our greatest inventors and scientists have hardly been out of there teens.:)

Frank Whittle took out a patent on the jet at 23 having worked on it for some years.

Ability does not come from age,in general it comes from a persons ability to assimilate and comprehend information.

Earl

[adventurelife]

In my limited experience of life and business in general teams always out perform individuals time and time again if the team is made up of outstanding people highly trained and experienced in the disciplines required to carry out the task at hand.

Teams always need a leader that can give the final say on the way forward after taking note of the input of all the team and also to keep the drive, and direction and timing all on the ball. The overall performance of the team no matter how good the individuals of each discipline are will be hugely influenced for good or bad by the leader.

That is not to say individuals cannot be outstanding at a range of disciplines but an individual only has so many hours in a day so teams are required.

With regards to the OP's statement in this world of SEO, Copy, PPC, etc etc what stops business people employing teams who are world class is normally the funds required to do so and also finding those teams that are is not a easy thing for a business owner.

Hence many work with lone individuals who deliver all required to an average level or deliver their bit and outsource the rest.

As always with being a business owner you have a huge amount to way up in any commercial move and every business wants the very best they can afford across all areas of their business. The reality is we all have to cut our cloth to suit our current business situations.

Just finding the best of breed in all disciplines is a major task, getting them to work on projects without outstanding leadership is a bit like herding cats:eek:

Hence so many, many business owners are disappointed with the SEO, PPC, Copy etc are of business.

Peter

[sirearl]

In my limited experience of life and business in general teams always out perform individuals time and time again if the team is made up of outstanding people highly trained and experienced in the disciplines required to carry out the task at hand.

Teams always need a leader that can give the final say on the way forward after taking note of the input of all the team and also to keep the drive, and direction and timing all on the ball. The overall performance of the team no matter how good the individuals of each discipline are will be hugely influenced for good or bad by the leader.

That is not to say individuals cannot be outstanding at a range of disciplines but an individual only has so many hours in a day so teams are required.

With regards to the OP's statement in this world of SEO, Copy, PPC, etc etc what stops business people employing teams who are world class is normally the funds required to do so and also finding those teams that are is not a easy thing for a business owner.

Hence many work with lone individuals who deliver all required to an average level or deliver their bit and outsource the rest.

As always with being a business owner you have a huge amount to way up in any commercial move and every business wants the very best they can afford across all areas of their business. The reality is we all have to cut our cloth to suit our current business situations.

Just finding the best of breed in all disciplines is a major task, getting them to work on projects without outstanding leadership is a bit like herding cats:eek:

Hence so many, many business owners are disappointed with the SEO, PPC, Copy etc are of business.

Peter

Whilst I agree with your post.

My experience is that finding a business owner who has the ability to run an internet marketing campaign is a very rare thing.

Hence I simply would not work on a project where I did not have full control.

Earl

[adventurelife]

Whilst I agree with your post.

My experience is that finding a business owner who has the ability to run an internet marketing campaign is a very rare thing.

Hence I simply would not work on a project where I did not have full control.

Earl

Agree, I would not expect the business owner to be able to run a internet market campaign. However, I would expect him to have done the plan on where he wants to go, done the research to find the team to get him their and then agreed the project, time lines, budgets etc with the team and the team leader and then let them run with it with agreed reporting lines.

A business owner cannot and will not every be able to play every instrument to an average level never mind expert, but he better be able to conduct the orchestra:)

[sirearl]

Agree, I would not expect the business owner to be able to run a internet market campaign. However, I would expect him to have done the plan on where he wants to go, done the research to find the team to get him their and then agreed the project, time lines, budgets etc with the team and the team leader and then let them run with it with agreed reporting lines.



In an ideal world Yes.But Your an exception to the rule Peter.

my experience again is that they want more visitors that will equal more money.

Very few seem to understand the magnitude or viability of what a website can achieve.

How can they without having experienced it.?

Earl

[adventurelife]

In an ideal world Yes.But Your an exception to the rule Peter.

my experience again is that they want more visitors that will equal more money.

Very few seem to understand the magnitude or viability of what a website can achieve.

How can they without having experienced it.?

Earl

That is because many business owners do not have a marketing outlook. They are focused on product or service etc which of course are important but totally useless if no one knows they exist.

[DotNetWebs]

...the fact that you 'tried' a few things before settling on copywriting does not mean (as has been implied) that you have previously failed...

I certainly did not mean to imply that Scott had "previously failed".

Many people on this forum, myself included, have found that since joining the direction their business has taken has changed.

Rather than for reasons of "failure", this is more often due to the realisation that one avenue has more opportunities than another.

Regards

Dotty

[DotNetWebs]

...Frank Whittle took out a patent on the jet at 23 having worked on it for some years...

And what a great invention that was!

Most people associate the move from piston engines to the jet with speed - but for the average passenger it has a lot more to do with reliability, economy and safety. :)

Regards

Dotty

[sirearl]

And what a great invention that was!

Most people associate the move from piston engines to the jet with speed - but for the average passenger it has a lot more to do with reliability, economy and safety. :)

Regards

Dotty

Yep another unsung hero and he was not even Scottish.:)
.

Regards Earl

[chrisor]

I had what I call one of my 'Columbo moments' this morning ... the one where he is just about to leave the suspect's office when he turns back and says "you know there is something I just don't understand ... ".

What I just don't understand is this ...

I consistently talk to businesses who get their website designed by one company, the SEO done by another, the PPC by yet another and if they need any copywriting they start looking again.

That is just the wrong way to go about internet marketing.

Each of these companies will have different agenda's and even if they tried to integrate their services for the benefit of the client (and how often would that happen?) it is still likely that the outcome would fall far short of ideal.

For example, you only have to read the SEO v PPC debates or the web design v copyright arguments etc., on this forum to get a flavour of how widely opinions differ.

So do these businesses employ multiple companies because they know no better ... because they think that this is the right way ... or because they cannot find one IM company that has all of the required talents under one roof.

Columbo would want the answer ... and so do I.

Colin Parker
My company does it all.

sayu.co.uk

Of course I would say that... lol

You're completely right that like any form of marketing all your efforts need to be joined up in a consistent and planned strategy. Therefore using different companies to manage different disciplines will make it hard for any form of coherent plan to evolve.

For example we developed an e-commerce platform that has SEO usability built in, but also manage SEO, PPC, video marketing as well as social media and reputation.

Our background was online retailing so we understand the important aspects of digital marketing more than most and have specialists who have worked in different traditional agency environments... for me this is the way it should be...

Pitch over... lol

[sunny29]

SEO copywriter is not only well in search engine optimization and social media optimization, but also they are highly skilled writers with a background in sales and marketing.

[j600com]

I had what I call one of my 'Columbo moments' this morning ... the one where he is just about to leave the suspect's office when he turns back and says "you know there is something I just don't understand ... ".

What I just don't understand is this ...

I consistently talk to businesses who get their website designed by one company, the SEO done by another, the PPC by yet another and if they need any copywriting they start looking again.

That is just the wrong way to go about internet marketing.

Each of these companies will have different agenda's and even if they tried to integrate their services for the benefit of the client (and how often would that happen?) it is still likely that the outcome would fall far short of ideal.

For example, you only have to read the SEO v PPC debates or the web design v copyright arguments etc., on this forum to get a flavour of how widely opinions differ.

So do these businesses employ multiple companies because they know no better ... because they think that this is the right way ... or because they cannot find one IM company that has all of the required talents under one roof.

Columbo would want the answer ... and so do I.

Colin Parker

There are plenty of full-service agencies like us who offer it all under one roof. But you often find people use various companies for each service as they like to shop around, or it can sometimes be the case that they want to start things at different times - e.g they may already be using a marketing company they are happy with, but then later decide they want a new website (and the marketing company they are happy with doesn't offer it). I guess its a case by case thing, but some people prefer everything one place, others prefer to have multiple relationships with individual service providers. There are pros and cons of both scenarios.

[twenty1ten]

I think it comes down to having trust in who you are dealing with.

My company has just 8 employees, however all are specialists at what they do, from SEO, Copywriting, Creative Design, Brand Marketing Strategists, Web Developers, App Geeks & E-Commerce. We have a team of freelancers we also use at busy times (like now when we have 4 working in the studio). A large percentage of our turnover is in Printing, yet we outsource this ! We outsource only to an approved supplier base, we dont buy on price, we buy on value for money (i.e. The Right Price for the Right product), and i think this principle can be applied to any of the sectors you spoke about in your original posts. Today we have won a project to produce a whole global brand overhaul including Website Including SEO/Copywriting etc...), brochureware, App, and Marketing Strategy - its the biggest single contract we have won (well into 6 figures) and we were competing against 2 of the largest multi-channel marketing agencies in the UK. Some of this project will be outsourced, but only to people we trust to deliver !

I think it just comes down to setting the goals rights at the start.

Right off to the Pub to celebrate !

[zigojacko]

We offer pretty much any service that involves a website SEO, PPC, social media marketing, conversion optimisation, link building, copywriting, press releases, white papers, website design, website development, graphic and logo design, branding.

All our creative design and media related services are under one company and all our digital marketing services under another. We also carry out tons of different design and print services too (business cards, business stationery, flyers, posters, brochures etc).

Most of our bespoke services to clients are a combination of various services of course.

We also a ton of other services but they are in separate sectors.

So I would say we pretty much are an agency that "does it all".

[Tin]

Guys, this thread is 2 years old and was resurected 4 posts ago.

[zigojacko]

Guys, this thread is 2 years old and was resurected 4 posts ago.

Good call, sorry didn't notice, haven't been on here for a while so was just going through the topics at the top of the forum.

Might it be an idea to ban these idiots from resurrecting these threads with spam (http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=1773337&postcount=103)?

Thanks :)

[mphonesdeals]

Actually, I am also the part of this type of business management like designing, seo, ppc and copywriting of websites, so the best way to handle all such type of things is hiring the best experienced employee in your company rather than the dependency of different different service providers.