Vegetarian haggis?

[Cornish Steve]

A couple of weeks ago, my wife bought a British paper sold here in the US. One of the advertisers was flogging vegetarian haggis. By the very definition of haggis, how can it possibly be vegetarian? Isn't this the ultimate in marketing?

[skyhi2]

They probably sell lots of em too :eek:

Very gullible them yanks :D

Skyhi2.

[Jheath]

Veggie Haggis does exist, it's been around for years and it's great!
I think the company that make it is called McSweens or something like that. I haven't had any for a while but it's actually delicious. Having said that I've never tried the carnie version so maybe I'm not the best person to judge :)

http://www.macsween.co.uk/product-range/vegetarian

[sirearl]

A couple of weeks ago, my wife bought a British paper sold here in the US. One of the advertisers was flogging vegetarian haggis. By the very definition of haggis, how can it possibly be vegetarian? Isn't this the ultimate in marketing?

Whats wrong with that.?

Sheep eat grass.;)

Earl

[Cornish Steve]

OK. Here's the list of ingredients from a recipe for making haggis. How can anyone possibly make a vegetarian version while still calling it haggis?


1 sheep's lung
1 sheep's stomach
1 sheep heart
1 sheep liver
1/2 lb fresh suet (kidney leaf fat is preferred)
3/4 cup oatmeal (the ground type, NOT the Quaker Oats type!)
3 onions, finely chopped
1 teaspoon salt
1 teaspoon freshly ground pepper
1/2 teaspoon cayenne
1/2 teaspoon nutmeg
3/4 cup stock

[papverpoppies]

OK. Here's the list of ingredients from a recipe for making haggis. How can anyone possibly make a vegetarian version while still calling it haggis?


1 sheep's lung
1 sheep's stomach
1 sheep heart
1 sheep liver
1/2 lb fresh suet (kidney leaf fat is preferred)
3/4 cup oatmeal (the ground type, NOT the Quaker Oats type!)
3 onions, finely chopped
1 teaspoon salt
1 teaspoon freshly ground pepper
1/2 teaspoon cayenne
1/2 teaspoon nutmeg
3/4 cup stock


Well even wikipedia now mentions the vegetarian haggis - so I quess it must be OK!

How can a veggie sausage be called a sausage (same thing really)!

Poppy

[am:pm graphics]

yum haggis..is it lunch yet? :p

[directmarketingadvice]

Veggie Haggis does exist, it's been around for years and it's great!
I think the company that make it is called McSweens or something like that. I haven't had any for a while but it's actually delicious. Having said that I've never tried the carnie version so maybe I'm not the best person to judge :)

http://www.macsween.co.uk/product-range/vegetarian

I can confirm all of the above. I first heard about it around 1990.

Steve

[visagephoto]

Veggie haggis!! That's sacrilege. . . bloody sacrilege!!

What ever will they think of next? . . .

Veggie tatties & neeps? . . . Aye right.

[Airia]

They sell it at our local Waitrose. I tried it. I'm vegetarian.

It's horrible!

[thebusiness]

OK. Here's the list of ingredients from a recipe for making haggis. How can anyone possibly make a vegetarian version while still calling it haggis?


The point is they don't then call it 'haggis' - they call it 'vegetarian haggis'. So let's turn your question around, how could they possibly make a 'vegetarian haggis' and then make it out of 99% sheep!:p

[Cornish Steve]

But that's like calling a lettuce leaf "vegetarian tongue".

[Geoff T]

vegetarian haggis

Me wee Gran (God rest her) I believe used to call that "white pudding"...

Just goes to show you shouldn't let the marketing types out without a leash Steve...(that's a lead for those back in ol' Blighty!);)

[skyhi2]

http://www.aboutaberdeen.com/whackthehaggisgame.php

Have a go at this,suitable for veggies too :-)

Skyhi2.

[casado]

Veggie Haggis does exist, it's been around for years and it's great!
I think the company that make it is called McSweens or something like that. I haven't had any for a while but it's actually delicious. Having said that I've never tried the carnie version so maybe I'm not the best person to judge :)



Simple, Veggie Haggis is not Haggis, is another thing. Same as Fake Haggis aint really Haggis.
I am not surprised that they try to sell it, what shocks me is that people buy it. It is kind of admitting that being vegetarian is somehow abnormal, and that they need to fake the non veggie food to get by.

[emmylou74]

Simple, Veggie Haggis is not Haggis, is another thing. Same as Fake Haggis aint really Haggis.
I am not surprised that they try to sell it, what shocks me is that people buy it. It is kind of admitting that being vegetarian is somehow abnormal, and that they need to fake the non veggie food to get by.

I don't see how it is admitting that being vegetarian is abnormal LOL I have never understood why meat eaters get their knickers in a twist over vegetarian products. I'm vegetarian and love vege haggis, vege sausage and wait for it vege bacon LOL

[casado]

I don't see how it is admitting that being vegetarian is abnormal LOL I have never understood why meat eaters get their knickers in a twist over vegetarian products. I'm vegetarian and love vege haggis, vege sausage and wait for it vege bacon LOL

To me is very simple. Why would anyone who do not want to eat meat, would pay to eat something that has the look, and may be feel and flavour, of meat? Does people need to have that "feeling" of eating meet even though they are vegetarian?
I can not answer that as I have never been one.
As for what you eat or you don't I couldn't care less.

[emmylou74]

To me is very simple. Why would anyone who do not want to eat meat, would pay to eat something that has the look, and may be feel and flavour, of meat? Does people need to have that "feeling" of eating meet even though they are vegetarian?
I can not answer that as I have never been one.
As for what you eat or you don't I couldn't care less.

Its simple I personally don't want to eat meat because I think its wrong - so if I can have a vege sausage and no animal was murdered for it then I'm happy!

A lot of meat eaters give me loads of hassle for the same argument - why should they care if I choose vege over the real thing - what does it matter!

[casado]

Its simple I personally don't want to eat meat because I think its wrong - so if I can have a vege sausage and no animal was murdered for it then I'm happy!

A lot of meat eaters give me loads of hassle for the same argument - why should they care if I choose vege over the real thing - what does it matter!

I haven't said that that I matters to me what you eat, I think I said just the opposite. My only point was that all this veggie meat-like products make it look like being vegetarian is somehow abnormal, and you just confirmed it, implying that you kind of "need" to have a sausage but you do not want to have it so you settle down for a fake.
What I do not appreciate is to be called a murderer for eating meat, as you would not appreciate to be called the same for eating carrots that, after all need to be killed to be digested.
One can only murder a person under certain circumstances, otherwise would be manslaughter, but is totally impossible to murder an animal that is not a human as much as it is impossible to murder a tree or a tomato plant.

[emmylou74]

I haven't said that that I matters to me what you eat, I think I said just the opposite. My only point was that all this veggie meat-like products make it look like being vegetarian is somehow abnormal, and you just confirmed it, implying that you kind of "need" to have a sausage but you do not want to have it so you settle down for a fake.
What I do not appreciate is to be called a murderer for eating meat, as you would not appreciate to be called the same for eating carrots that, after all need to be killed to be digested.
One can only murder a person under certain circumstances, otherwise would be manslaughter, but is totally impossible to murder an animal that is not a human as much as it is impossible to murder a tree or a tomato plant.


I'm totally not going down the road of arguing whos more morally right - I believe what I believe - live and let live - you cannot tell me what is morally right as much as I cannot tell you. :)

[casado]

I'm totally not going down the road of arguing whos more morally right - I believe what I believe - live and let live - you cannot tell me what is morally right as much as I cannot tell you. :)

Sorry, but you do at the moment that you call people who never killed anyone a murderer. I am not telling you anything but that you can not call me, or anyone else, a murderer just because you think you found a way to be feel superior to the rest. Apart from that, as if you decide to believe in the interstellar brotherhood, as long as you don't go about telling people who don't believe it that they are murderers.

[emmylou74]

you seriously need to chill a bit :) if I give the impression that I feel I am more superior than you - then you have me very very wrong and I am sorry about that. Like I said I'm not going to get into a debate about peoples personal morals and views - these are mine - that I shared - you shared yours with me. :)

[casado]

you seriously need to chill a bit :) if I give the impression that I feel I am more superior than you - then you have me very very wrong and I am sorry about that. Like I said I'm not going to get into a debate about peoples personal morals and views - these are mine - that I shared - you shared yours with me. :)

Sorry, I repeat that when you call someone a murderer those morals stop being personal, unless, obviously, you think murder is right. You just said that you think that just because you refuse to eat meat, you are better person, call it morally superior or whatever, redundantly, according to your moral.
But if you where consistent with your "morals", you should refuse anything coming from a person who eats meat, as that would make you profit from the killing of animals. But that would be too dear for your "personal" moral, wouldn't it?. Moral is right as long as is personal, you can call anyone a murderer or what you fancy at the moment, and, specially, if it's free.
As for the rest, as I said, I couldn't care less about your choice, you don't call me a murderer and I will not call you a bigot.

[emmylou74]

:) Peace man :)

[casado]

:) Peace man :)

Si vis pacem, para bellum

[Cornish Steve]

Wow. Who would have thought that a thread about haggis could stir such emotions? Reading these messages has made me hungry. Right now, I could a murder a good .....

[emmylou74]

Right now, I could a murder a good .....

carrot? :D

[Officebird]

Goodness me, it started out so friendly too lol.

Great marketing ploy this, wish I'd thought of it:)

[Jheath]

I choose to be veggie for lots of reasons and love a massive range of plant based foods including savoury proteins including grains, pulses and cultured foods. The fact that sometimes they are made into shapes like burgers and sausages is convenient but otherwise is neither here nor there. It makes me laugh when carnies are suprised to find they don't have a monopoly on food in those shapes! Most people I know are inquisitive and adventurous about food and love to try some of my favourite specialities. I can't believe people miss out on chilli and ginger marinaded tofu or deep fried tempeh - there are 1000's of flavours and textures and foods from a myriad different cultures from around the world. I would never swap all that for pieces from five or six species of animal carcass. Some people have no idea what they're missing out on!

There's a great travel book which is a fantastic resource on food from around the world with amazing photos and recipes which just happen to be veggie here:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_ss_0_11?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=world+food+cafe&sprefix=world+food+

Is vegetarian haggis real haggis? of course not, but it tastes nice so who cares?

[Flying Hippy]

I had veggie one from costco a few years ago. Tasted nice. looked for it the other day but could not see the veggie ones.

Use to be a chef years ago still cook at home :) for the misses

[maria102]

I don't eat meat, predominantly because I just don't like it, very squeamish although I am an animal lover too. I eat meat alternatives because I just like the taste of them and they are another option, not that I am feel like I am missing out, I could well do without them. We eat a lot of Quorn, but not because we are missing regular mince, mince meat mince smells and is really quite hideous.

[Comspec]

I love vegetarian food, I always reckon its way more colourful than us meat-eaters.

.............thats why my favourite pizza is a Vegetarian with Ham :D

People do need to get the idea that vegetables ARE good for you, and increasing their intake IS a good thing. This whole 5 a day malarkey means nowt in our house, as we could have 3-4 portions with any one meal.

The dark green fellahs are best I reckon (brocolli, Cabbage, Sprouts etc), and I try to eat these most weeks.

I do wish they'd give that veggie lot a tablecloth though, its damn unhygenic :D

Veggie Haggis makes no sense, but I suspect if they called it 'Veggie McTavish' it might not sell the same.

[Cornish Steve]

It makes me laugh when carnies are suprised to find they don't have a monopoly on food in those shapes!
Carnies - now there's a term I've never heard before.

Forgive me for asking what may be a stupid question, but I'm fascinated. Many vegetarians don't eat meat because they don't believe in killing animals. On the other hand, you'll kill ants or a spider or cockroach without blinking. Having travelled a lot in Asia, I've seen the vendor stalls selling fried crickets and cockroaches. Given that killing is not the issue for them, and they are full of protein, would you eat them? In other words, where do you draw the line?

[Comspec]

Have Veggies got a name for the rest of us? thats nice, and very inclusive of them :D

[Jheath]

Have Veggies got a name for the rest of us? thats nice, and very inclusive of them :D

Yeah we're a very inclusive bunch, us veggies! I'm very tolerant of carnies, in fact some of my best friends are tolerant of carnies too! Although I'd never date one -meat breath is such a turn-off! :D

[casado]

I love vegetarian food, I always reckon its way more colourful than us meat-eaters.

.............thats why my favourite pizza is a Vegetarian with Ham :D

People do need to get the idea that vegetables ARE good for you, and increasing their intake IS a good thing. This whole 5 a day malarkey means nowt in our house, as we could have 3-4 portions with any one meal.

The dark green fellahs are best I reckon (brocolli, Cabbage, Sprouts etc), and I try to eat these most weeks.

I do wish they'd give that veggie lot a tablecloth though, its damn unhygenic :D

Veggie Haggis makes no sense, but I suspect if they called it 'Veggie McTavish' it might not sell the same.


Only in this country and in this generation(s) can we have this silly discussion. I have been brought up in a Mediterranean country, and I eat and have eaten all kind of thing. You can bribe me with a good salad, plenty of olive oil. I enjoy beans, sprouts, vegetables of all colours and tastes. I enjoy fresh fish, oh, to die for, and all sorts of meats, pork, chicken, beef, rabbit (yes, rabbit, delicious in so many ways)
If someone wants to give up on some food, it is up to them. The only thing that I said, that seem to have upset some people is that making veggie meat look a like foods and that there is a demand for them (not that some people may eat it just because it is there or just out of curiosity) make it look like there is the implied assumption that vegetarians would like to have the feeling of eating meat without actually eating it. I find that courious, as some of the arguments in favour of vegetarians is that people do not need to eat meat to survive and that is true, you can survive only on vegetables. But it is also true taht you do not need to eat vegetables to survive, for instance traditional food in Mongolia is almos entirely made of meat, animal blood and milk, and people there live longer than here. Thanks to the fact that humans can survive on so many different foods we are here.
Yet most of dieaticians say that the best diet is composed of everything, not too much of just one thing. In any case, every one eat what He or She wants, what I was contesting is the fact that some forms of eating may be considered in any way more moral than others, and, least of all the majority of people living now, or that have lived in the past (and made it possible that we are alive) are murderers just for doing what in the human species is natural. Would anyone call a lion a murderer just because the lion eats meat?

[Clodbuster]

Vegetarian - isn't that an old Red Indian word meaning "Bad Hunter"

[Jheath]

Carnies - now there's a term I've never heard before.

Forgive me for asking what may be a stupid question, but I'm fascinated. Many vegetarians don't eat meat because they don't believe in killing animals. On the other hand, you'll kill ants or a spider or cockroach without blinking. Having travelled a lot in Asia, I've seen the vendor stalls selling fried crickets and cockroaches. Given that killing is not the issue for them, and they are full of protein, would you eat them? In other words, where do you draw the line?

I can't speak for others but personally I wouldn't kill any kind of animal unless I was in personal danger (him or me). I certainly wouldn't kill something just because it irritated me or was in my space, like a spider or a mouse (or a horse for that matter - what's the difference?). So I wouldn't eat them either. I wouldn't kill a non-human animal any sooner than I'd kill a human animal (although the latter is tempting sometimes :rolleyes:)


Yet most of dieaticians say that the best diet is composed of everything, not too much of just one thing. In any case, every one eat what He or She wants, what I was contesting is the fact that some forms of eating may be considered in any way more moral than others, and, least of all the majority of people living now, or that have lived in the past (and made it possible that we are alive) are murderers just for doing what in the human species is natural. Would anyone call a lion a murderer just because the lion eats meat?

A lion is doing what it does through instinct. Humans have humanity, we have a choice. For many veggies it's not the principle of killing, it's more about the exploitation and cruelty in the factory farming system. Other issues around natural resources, world food and land use factor in there as well. It's arguable that (for example) shooting say a wild rabbit humanely for food presents little problem. The dead bunny has to die one day anyway and probably suffered less than the other likely options. If the hunter takes only what he needs to eat, takes responsibility to kill humanely then a lot of the problem goes away.

Vegetarian - isn't that an old Red Indian word meaning "Bad Hunter"

Native Americans were co-dependent on animals and had huge reverence for them. Sure they killed to eat, but used every part of the animal. They saw the relationship as co-operative rather than exploitative, something we could learn from today. They had a huge reverence for the natural world in general. It took NASA to send back pictures of the earth, and James Lovelock to express his Gaia Theory for the environmental movement to grow and for the rest of us to start to understand what they already knew.

Wow that's a bit involved for a business forum on a sunday night - sorry about that, but you did ask!

[Cornish Steve]

Deer hunting is a big deal in this part of the world. Indeed, it's necessary to cull them otherwise their numbers would get a little out of hand. This means that venison is both popular and often free. Given what you've said, it's frustrating that some people hide in the woods to prevent hunting (and some even shoot at hunters) because, ultimately, hunting deer helps the herd.

When is haggis hunting season?

[Rusty]

I'm not a vegetarian but much prefer a vegetarian haggis having had a rather unpleasant experience with a meat one when I was younger.

If you get a good veggie haggis it tastes just as good as the real thing but without all the bits in which make me a little squeamish. I eat it because I like the taste of the recipe, just like I often eat veggie sausage because the taste is sometimes better than the meat variety and certainly doesn't come with all the unsavory stuff that a cheap meat alternative has in it.

Kerry

[papverpoppies]

Deer hunting is a big deal in this part of the world. Indeed, it's necessary to cull them otherwise their numbers would get a little out of hand. This means that venison is both popular and often free. Given what you've said, it's frustrating that some people hide in the woods to prevent hunting (and some even shoot at hunters) because, ultimately, hunting deer helps the herd.

When is haggis hunting season?

Haggis Hunting Season (http://haggishunt.scotsman.com/) ;)

Poppy

[Dawg]

Just a guess, but my impression is that veggies are more likely to use big Macs than PCs...

(In fact I'm a little surprised that Apple don't do a greenwash marketing campaign based on "the meatless Mac" for those big white anaemic looking boxes.)

[bdw]

I am another who finds it strange that veggies eat meat substitutes in meat shapes. Isn't that just pretending to eat meat and therefore still morally wrong according to their principles? "Let's not eat animal flesh - just something that looks and tastes as close as possible to it please." ;)

If you want to be a veggie get your own shapes, tastes and textures. We animal eaters don't try to make fillet steak taste like lettuce. Nut cutlets indeed! :p

Regarding veggie haggis, I have never tried it but it is made by McSweens, a well known haggis maker up here in Jockanesia so it will probably be OK. Personally I think they should consider making a meat feast version without the offal products. That may appeal to more people too.

Note: No haggis were killed or harmed during the writing of this response.

[Jheath]

I am another who finds it strange that veggies eat meat substitutes in meat shapes. Isn't that just pretending to eat meat and therefore still morally wrong according to their principles?


No! It's not a substitute it's an alternative. I enjoy a tasty "notdog" with onions and ketchup just like you. It's just that mine has no piggy in the middle. Just as tasty if not more so, healthier types of fat, more nutricious and less likely to give me food poisoning.
:):):)

[Officebird]

I find the whole veggie debate quite interesting as I used to be one (only for a year or so though!).

Do the veggies here utilise the by products of the animal trade? Leather, milk, cheese, chewing gum, glue etc? The moral excuse is normally that it's ok to wear leather as the animal wasn't killed for the leather, it's just a by product so its not doing any harm. I just don't get this. If you think its wrong to kill an animal for your own use then you should not be utilising the waste from the process!

What about veggies that still eat fish:eek::| I've never understood that.

So how do the vegetarians here justify not being vegans and how do they cope through life making sure they don't use by products? Do they let their children make junk models with glue? Do they let them drink milk from a cow that is forced to have a calf once a year in order to continue to produce milk? The calf, if male, then becomes another by product which is of course the veal trade. Once the milking cow has stopped being useful it is then slaughtered. Surely slaughter is the by product of dairy farming?? So do the veggies here let their children have milk on their cereals?

Just curious as to what the justifications will be:)

[casado]

Don't go there Sara, you can provoke a very nasty reaction on someone, seriously.
I know of a teenager who has developed a kind of phobia due to these things. He would not buy normal shoes or trainers because the glue issue you mention, he has to have some special ones delivered to them that do not contain glue made from animal products, He would never ever seat down on a chair or sofa that has some leather in it, etc. It has become a real problem for His family and friends for the amount of things He wouldn't do or wouldn't have.
To me that is a mental illness, but you can say that too loud today because you may be put to the stake by the new PC zealots.
To me, the biggest contradictions of all is that they try to save animal lives that would not exist if we didn't eat meat. Who would tender sheep of cows if we didn't eat their meat or drink their milk? So, apparently, is morally more acceptable not the let animals live than to kill them for food, which I don't get it really.
Anyhow, let everyone be happy with their choices.

[StefanK]

Not going to read all this thread as its probably full of misinformed or borderline offensive non-veggies talking crap, but sausages and Burgers can easily be vegetarian as its the shape and frying style that makes them what they are, not the ingreadients. Not sure about Haggis.

The veggie Haggis is very nice, but vastly overpriced for what it is, as with many 'veggie fake meat' type products, which are more often than not marketed at meat eaters either buying food for veggies or looking for a 'healthier alternative'.

As for the debate which has no doubt started, its likely that all but the richest among us will revert to an almost fully veg diet in the not so distant future, like our ancestors ate a hundred years ago, as the rest of the world 'catchs up' economically and the price of meat (and grazing land) skyrockets. So get used to it.

[StefanK]

To me, the biggest contradictions of all is that they try to save animal lives that would not exist if we didn't eat meat. Who would tender sheep of cows if we didn't eat their meat or drink their milk? So, apparently, is morally more acceptable not the let animals live than to kill them for food, which I don't get it really.


I couldn't give two ****s about sheep or cows, personally. If the sheep or cows werent there, in their place would be a field full of veg which could feed many more people. If I'm saving lives, they are human ones.

[skyhi2]

Just a small point,but what if you do not like vegetables ?

Skyhi2.

[casado]

I couldn't give two ****s about sheep or cows, personally. If the sheep or cows werent there, in their place would be a field full of veg which could feed many more people. If I'm saving lives, they are human ones.

You assume too many things, like
"Not going to read all this thread as its probably full of misinformed or borderline offensive non-veggies talking crap"

Thats the thing about the people who BELIEVE, that they do not need to read or listen to what other people have to say to KNOW. You already know better.
I didn't know there was a shortage of food, at least in Europe. I thought the problem was just the opposite, people overeating and overdrinking.
By the way, without sheep and cows you would find it harder to feed your vegetables. Not to mention that if someone doesn't hunt rabbits these will eat some of the crops destined to make such delicious breakfast cereals.

[StefanK]

You assume too many things, like
"Not going to read all this thread as its probably full of misinformed or borderline offensive non-veggies talking crap"

Thats the thing about the people who BELIEVE, that they do not need to read or listen to what other people have to say to KNOW. You already know better.
I didn't know there was a shortage of food, at least in Europe. I thought the problem was just the opposite, people overeating and overdrinking.
By the way, without sheep and cows you would find it harder to feed your vegetables. Not to mention that if someone doesn't hunt rabbits these will eat some of the crops destined to make such delicious breakfast cereals.

Of course I know better. As a long time Veggie, I've heard all the ridiculous crap ( People saying 'why do we eat meat shaped burgers/sausages' is possibly my favourite. Think about it...) that Omnivores come out with. Theres no doubt that those of us that have these conversations daily know better, just as you'd expect someone that was a doctor to 'know better' about the human body..

In reply to your other points. Yes, we have a food shortage worldwide. Partly because we - and primarily the World bank/IMF - have told developing countries they must stop growing bananas to feed themselves on and switch to production of herbs (or coffee beans, or whatever) for the export market, partly because the world as a whole is getting wealthier and more demanding - the level of meat in the chinese diet has gone up massively, for example. Food supply in Europe does not end at the borders of the E.U, if it did we'd certainly know about it.

I don't really understand your points about the animals - I would have thought that if they provided a service, they would continue to be reared (similar to how many Americans rear goats to provide a scrub clearing service) or survive themselves (as foxes and squirrels do). What shooting rabbits has to do with anything I don't know.

If you don't like vegetables, then you don't eat them. Not sure I understand the point there, either.

[bdw]

If you don't like vegetables, then you don't eat them. Not sure I understand the point there, either.

No vegetables - no meat? Kind of narrows the choice does it not?

[Officebird]

Don't go there Sara, you can provoke a very nasty reaction on someone, seriously.


lol I'm not trying to provoke a nasty reaction, I'm genuinely interested. These are the questions that made me re evaluate my choice to be a veggie. Not the main reason I went back to meat, but certainly part of the reason/ I would genuinely like to know how people justify these issues in their everyday lives.:)

[casado]

Of course I know better. As a long time Veggie, I've heard all the ridiculous crap ( People saying 'why do we eat meat shaped burgers/sausages' is possibly my favourite. Think about it...) that Omnivores come out with. Theres no doubt that those of us that have these conversations daily know better, just as you'd expect someone that was a doctor to 'know better' about the human body..

In reply to your other points. Yes, we have a food shortage worldwide. Partly because we - and primarily the World bank/IMF - have told developing countries they must stop growing bananas to feed themselves on and switch to production of herbs (or coffee beans, or whatever) for the export market, partly because the world as a whole is getting wealthier and more demanding - the level of meat in the chinese diet has gone up massively, for example. Food supply in Europe does not end at the borders of the E.U, if it did we'd certainly know about it.

I don't really understand your points about the animals - I would have thought that if they provided a service, they would continue to be reared (similar to how many Americans rear goats to provide a scrub clearing service) or survive themselves (as foxes and squirrels do). What shooting rabbits has to do with anything I don't know.

If you don't like vegetables, then you don't eat them. Not sure I understand the point there, either.

Please, let me doubt your expertise on what I think or on what I said once you admit that you haven't read the thread. To me you are just another believer and that gives you no authority on any subject except for yourself.
What I do not understand is what the coffee and banana trade has to do with eating meat of the food shortage. So, according to you if we were eating rabbits instead of bananas there would be less of a food shortage than the one you claim there is.

As for you assumption that I don't like vegetables, is just another of your creeds, not anything related to facts, and another prove that you don't read and base your assumed (by you) expertise in very shallow assumptions.

[casado]

lol I'm not trying to provoke a nasty reaction, I'm genuinely interested. These are the questions that made me re evaluate my choice to be a veggie. Not the main reason I went back to meat, but certainly part of the reason/ I would genuinely like to know how people justify these issues in their everyday lives.:)

I wound't worry too much about it.
There are always people, as there always have been and will be, who need to find a way to feel better, deserver more, than the others based on their "feelings" or alleged feelings towards certain issues. This is the guilt/salvation schema of the Judeo/Christian philosophy. There are always something of which we are guilty of, so, not deserving. Only the pure, and the ones who know this and can correct themselves, can become moral, pure, deserving, etc.
So, imagine that from tomorrow we all become vegetarians, then these people couldn't not be showing off their moral superiority, and they will need to come up with something else, normally cheap, to go on being better than the rest.
That is why the "issues" never end. If you are a loving, caring person, you will always need something to love and care about.

[bdw]

How did we get from veggie haggis to this?:|:|:|

Judeo/Christian philosophy.
Yes, we have a food shortage worldwide.
World bank/IMF

[skyhi2]

" I dont like vegetables ",the point being ?,so what,who the hell cares ?

Every single discussion i have ever come across has always descended in to two distinct camps.And every time the same thing happens,it either gets locked,or,the mods step in somewhere along the way to " settle " things down.

" Veggies " defend themselves very well,as they are used to all the " crap " the " Carnies " give em.

Carnies,in general,just like to bait the veggies,you know the kinda thing, " how can you survive on a turnip,celery stick,and a bag of nuts a day ".

Just my 2 cents.

Skyhi2.

[casado]

How did we get from veggie haggis to this?:|:|:|

When someone mentioned morals to explain why veggie haggis was a good idea.

[skyhi2]

Morals and food in the same sentence = trouble ;)

Skyhi2.

[StefanK]

Please, let me doubt your expertise on what I think or on what I said once you admit that you haven't read the thread. To me you are just another believer and that gives you no authority on any subject except for yourself.
What I do not understand is what the coffee and banana trade has to do with eating meat of the food shortage. So, according to you if we were eating rabbits instead of bananas there would be less of a food shortage than the one you claim there is.

As for you assumption that I don't like vegetables, is just another of your creeds, not anything related to facts, and another prove that you don't read and base your assumed (by you) expertise in very shallow assumptions.

My expertise is in being a vegetarian. Which as I am, there is no doubt in this matter. I am constantly told the same things by meat eaters, therefore I imagine I can summarise this thread without reading it. If you are an Omnivore, and have been since youth, you are by definition an expert in the mater, no?

There is very little link between the coffee and banana trade and not eating meat. I offered anexplanation for food shortages, as it is plainly clear that had I not you would have picked me up on this. Eating meat is not the sole reason for food shortages, the globalised economy and the desire to export your product all over the world does this, and the Bretton Woods twins have been chief in converting economies to exports.

If we were eating rabbits constantly, yes, this would probably improve the food shortages - but I am not aware of how it compares in terms of land used, feed used, time etc. Certainly the biggy in terms of wastage is meat from a cow, which has gone through a massive amount of resources only to offer a small meal.

So, to summarise, and I'd rather not have to make the point again, there are two major reasons for the current food shortages.

i) Insistance by world bodies on promoting the export of food and the traditional mantra of 'everyone should grow what they are best at and trade' above everybody having easy access to local food (Cuba is the best example of an alternative, as are food co-ops in the UK).

ii) Over-eating of meat, which requires much more resources (such as grain to feed the animals, grazing land) to produce a similar amount to the alternative in vegetables or crop.

There are also other factors - Mexico and their joining of NAFTA threw up an interesting case for example, but I won't go into them. Those of you that are interested should read a book called 'stuffed and starved' by Raj Patel, which is probably the most accesible reasonabley academic review of the world food systems problems currently.



I am quite happy to admit there is an element of guilt behind my decision to be veggie. but when I visit or read about a country like Jamaica ( around 98% food imports) or China (were people have been displaced for new meat production facilities), quite frankly I feel it's damn worth it.

[casado]

My expertise is in being a vegetarian. Which as I am, there is no doubt in this matter. I am constantly told the same things by meat eaters, therefore I imagine I can summarise this thread without reading it...........

Okay, do as you please. You do not need to read us, I don't need to read you, so I skip the rest.

[bdw]

Certainly the biggy in terms of wastage is meat from a cow, which has gone through a massive amount of resources only to offer a small meal.


A cow is a small meal to a veggie? What do you guys eat, trees? :D

[Dawg]

http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/8009/desperatedancowpie.jpg (http://img340.imageshack.us/i/desperatedancowpie.jpg/)

[Cornish Steve]

One increasingly important reason for a food shortage is the environmentalists' demand that we use biofuels instead of oil for vehicles. This is flabbergastingly short-sighted. Farmers in the US and elsewhere, who produce massive amounts of grain, are selling crops for the production of alcohol additives to petrol - because of governments that pay handsome subsidies for doing this.

[Officebird]

I find the whole veggie debate quite interesting as I used to be one (only for a year or so though!).

Do the veggies here utilise the by products of the animal trade? Leather, milk, cheese, chewing gum, glue etc? The moral excuse is normally that it's ok to wear leather as the animal wasn't killed for the leather, it's just a by product so its not doing any harm. I just don't get this. If you think its wrong to kill an animal for your own use then you should not be utilising the waste from the process!

What about veggies that still eat fish:eek::| I've never understood that.

So how do the vegetarians here justify not being vegans and how do they cope through life making sure they don't use by products? Do they let their children make junk models with glue? Do they let them drink milk from a cow that is forced to have a calf once a year in order to continue to produce milk? The calf, if male, then becomes another by product which is of course the veal trade. Once the milking cow has stopped being useful it is then slaughtered. Surely slaughter is the by product of dairy farming?? So do the veggies here let their children have milk on their cereals?

Just curious as to what the justifications will be:)

Funny how noone has been able to answer this yet:|

As for the food shortage, yes there is one. As for the future? Yes climate change will have a dramatic impact on the production of food, and experts agree that the UK will face either war like rationing on meat, or a predominantly vegetarian diet. The UK is lucky as it is something like 75% self sufficient as far as food production goes, but not all countries are as fortunate.

[bdw]

experts agree

Aye right!

[skyhi2]

Priceless bdw :D

[Clodbuster]

Yes, we have a food shortage worldwide. Partly because we - and primarily the World bank/IMF - have told developing countries they must stop growing bananas to feed themselves on and switch to production of herbs (or coffee beans, or whatever) for the export market, partly because the world as a whole is getting wealthier and more demanding

As a person from the 3rd World farmer of 40 odd years standing - we were never told to stop producing our food in preference for cash crops. We produced a cash crop side by side with our food. Most times that was a food crop anyway.

The biggest reason for the food shortage is the rampant population explosion brought on by better health facilities, lower infant mortality and the burgeoning urban population that cannot grow its own food.

Blame the human society as a whole rather than a single entity.

[skyhi2]

How many acres have you got in production that are not food based ?

Just askin.

Skyhi2.

[Clodbuster]

How many acres have you got in production that are not food based ?

Just askin.

Skyhi2.

When we left in 2004.
0
400 in maize (staple African diet)
200 in Soya bean
200 in Wheat
Balance mixed in cattle and Safari hunting.

[casado]

Yes climate change will have a dramatic impact on the production of food, and experts agree that the UK will face either war like rationing on meat, or a predominantly vegetarian diet.

If they agree is because they have to, otherwise they are sacked like Prof Nutt, who was appointed to give his expert opinion as long as his opinion agreed with that of the government.

Listen, in the European Union has been subsidizing farmers in the South of Europe to persuade them to abandon cultivation. Thousand of squared kilometers or arable land that had been cultivated for centuries had not been cultivated for the last 15 or so years, and the experts say we are facing a possible food shortage? Thinking of which, it may not be too bad given the problem with so many people being overweight, and mainly not from eating meat but from eating snacks made of potatoes, corn, etc.

[skyhi2]

Oh,sorry,i thought you were farming in Norfolk :-)

Skyhi2.

[papverpoppies]

" I dont like vegetables ",the point being ?,so what,who the hell cares ?

Every single discussion i have ever come across has always descended in to two distinct camps.And every time the same thing happens,it either gets locked,or,the mods step in somewhere along the way to " settle " things down.

" Veggies " defend themselves very well,as they are used to all the " crap " the " Carnies " give em.

Carnies,in general,just like to bait the veggies,you know the kinda thing, " how can you survive on a turnip,celery stick,and a bag of nuts a day ".

Just my 2 cents.

Skyhi2.

If meat eaters want to eat meat, then do so.

If 'us' veggies choose not to want to, but sometimes eat something that resemebles a sausage - what the hell! We are not asking for you to understand - to be honest I am not sure I understand why myself.

Perhaps the answer is they 'just taste good'!;)

What I eat, or do not eat, does not effect you - and likewise!

Myself I could not surive on turnip, celery stick and bag of nuts:eek: - wish I could! I would be far better off 'money' wise'!

At the end of the day its down to choice (just as smoking and drinking is).

Off for my lentil bean burger:p

Poppy

[skyhi2]

Probably the most sensible post ( apart from the original OP ) in here so far Poppy :-)

We eat what we like and we like what we eat-Simples :-))

Skyhi2.

[footie_matt]

Vegetarian haggis?