Copywriters are magicians

[sirearl]

Seems copywriters think the general public are stupid and gullible and think a few well chosen words will make the population buy a product over another site .

They also seem to have the ability to pull mass web traffic out of a hat.

Beyond a good description and equally good images.

Do you really think there eloquent words makes you buy a product.

I believe that price is what gets the sale in nearly all cases.

Earl

[DotNetWebs]

....Do you really think there eloquent words makes you buy a product.

I believe that price is what gets the sale in nearly all cases...

For me it's two things:

1. Price

2. A CREDIBLE website

By Credible I mean: Does It have FULL contact details? If it says it's a LTD company does it display the registration details? Does it have full T & C s with a returns policy? Does it use a proper payment gateway? Does it use SSL? etc. etc.

There are many other markers that I probably subtly use to get a 'feel' for the site.

One important factor is my past history with the site. I will often purchase from sites I have successfully used before without further investigating cheaper alternatives.

To be honest the actually 'sales copy' is unimportant to me. All I want is a concise and accurate description (which may just simply be the make and model)

Regards

Dotty

[sdchown]

For me it's two things:

1. Price

2. A CREDIBLE website

By Credible I mean: Does It have FULL contact details? If it says it's a LTD company does it display the registration details? Does it have full T & C s with a returns policy? Does it use a proper payment gateway? Does it use SSL? etc. etc.

There are many other markers that I probably subtly use to get a 'feel' for the site.

One important factor is my past history with the site. I will often purchase from sites I have successfully used before without further investigating cheaper alternatives.

To be honest the actually 'sales copy' is unimportant to me. All I want is a concise and accurate description (which may just simply be the make and model)

Regards

Dotty

Yeah but bad grammar and spelling would turn me off a site.

[Ali-v-8]

I use my copywriter to give me unique text.
I then edit that text for my own purpose which is to get website to page one.
Copy A4 300-400 word count £200. (because of legal issues)

But the copy is only part of the game.

[ICEY]

Sorry I disagree, research shows that different people use different senses to communicate - there are some people that are visual - when talking to them they say things like "I see what you're saying", then there are those that are natural listeners "I hear what you are saying", those that are touch sensitive "I can feel it in my bones" and so on. Those are very brief and light weight examples, there are plenty more.

I've spent a long time studying different buying habits over the years. There are those that come on and flick very quickly through the site and obvisously buy off pictures - this becomes apparent when when they haven't read the delivery or returns policy. There are others that study each page in depth, over and over again and can quite literally quote your site back to you word perfect.

There are others that do just buy on price - they will buy a kids bracelet for themselves because it is cheaper than the adults bracelets.

I'm visual - I always look at the pictures and I always click on zooms and I would never buy from a website that doesn't visually appeal - especially if it doesn't look professional - I click away before I get past the first page. I would hazard a guess that you wouldn't buy that way, that the window dressings as such wouldn't really register with you as you would just focus on the price? Horses for courses, it just illustrates that different people have different buying habits.

So with our site we have tried to appeal to as many types of purchasers as we can - by being keenly priced, we've invested in design and pictures and we had the descriptions professionally written (although admittedly we haven't for the newer products as I need to find someone to do them).

I really believe that a site should have an equal balance between good pricing, good graphics and good content. I am a terrible writer (why say something in 10 words when you can use 10,000??) and so for me a professional copywriter may well be a magician!

[An Oasis]

Yeah but bad grammar and spelling would turn me off a site.

Yah, it's what puts me off the OP:D

Don't you just find these SEO threads....so........zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz:p

[I, Brian]

Don't knock great presentation - when it works really well, it does indeed work really well.

Images are always helpful for illustrative purposes or simply to help with readability - but, seriously, never knock the text - taking the right voice in the right context, and focusing on the right information - sells wonderfully.

I also know that much as on-page SEO is dismissed as easy, there are some real nuances in there many overlook.

Frankly, it's silly to denigrate any individual element of marketing - in truth, many different aspects should be given due consideration, careful attention, and brought together in a way greater than the sum of its parts.

Good. Copy. Works.

And integrated marketing works better than over-focus on any specific marketing area.

2c.

[An Oasis]

Don't knock great presentation - when it works really well, it does indeed work really well.

Images are always helpful for illustrative purposes or simply to help with readability - but, seriously, never knock the text - taking the right voice in the right context, and focusing on the right information - sells wonderfully.

I also know that much as on-page SEO is dismissed as easy, there are some real nuances in there many overlook.

Frankly, it's silly to denigrate any individual element of marketing - in truth, many different aspects should be given due consideration, careful attention, and brought together in a way greater than the sum of its parts.

Good. Copy. Works.

And integrated marketing works better than over-focus on any specific marketing area.

2c.

Oh an interesting SEO post, Brian as ever you are a gem amoungst the bottom dwellers.

Do so agree good copy makes a site zing and as for the image bit don't tell the SEO'ers stuff like that (good images well SEO'd bring in shed loads of traffic - yah scary amounts guys scarey amounts, you can double traffic to your clients sites:eek:), they will finally cotton on and start to make a living and that begins to make it hard for us non SOE'ers.

[MH1]

Frankly, it's silly to denigrate any individual element of marketing - in truth, many different aspects should be given due consideration, careful attention, and brought together in a way greater than the sum of its parts.



I agree, one aspect on it's own will work, but get all the parts working well and you will do much better than most, commonsense when you think about it.

[sirearl]

I also know that much as on-page SEO is dismissed as easy, there are some real nuances in there many overlook.

Frankly, it's silly to denigrate any individual element of marketing -

2c.

Don't think I was denigrating copy writing ,well maybe a bit of gentle micky taking.

More interested in what makes people buy.

always worked on:

images

Description.

Price

but who knows.?

Earl

[seedstotal]

If you know your product, then you should write your own ok sales copy.
Cant do that with SEO though.
Seriously a good picture and a few good sentences, the rest of the description is not going to increase your sales (talking about e commerce site here).
And price! Come on what else!?
How could i ask some1 who doesnt know anything about my products to write my sales copy?????????? I just do not get it.

[Scott-CopyandDesign]

Seems copywriters think the general public are stupid and gullible and think a few well chosen words will make the population buy a product over another site .

Well that's a ridiculous thing to say. If you genuinely believe that I think the general public are stupid and gullible then you couldn't be more wrong.


They also seem to have the ability to pull mass web traffic out of a hat.

Beyond a good description and equally good images.

Do you really think there eloquent words makes you buy a product.

I believe that price is what gets the sale in nearly all cases.

EarlThe simple fact is, it DOES make a huge difference. There's a few cynical people out there who try to look past copy for some odd reason, and believe that copywriting is only for those cheesy direct marketing websites with a load of sales spiel which does draw gullible people in. For the most part though, copy is for professional UK businesses who can't manage to showcase their products/services in the best way on their own.

Copy is on your side. It's there to help you. Do you want to know all of the features, benefits and reasons to buy a product? They are there for you to read. It doesn't involve coaxing someone into buying what they don't want. It doesn't involve some sort of crazy hypnotic spell, or taking advantage of gullible people.

Hundreds of tests and results prove that copy makes a massive difference. As I said in the other thread, I had a recent client and his website converted at 4.7%. I wrote copy for him, he put it in and the conversion rate jumped to 9.78%, and 7.55% overnight. His previous copy was perfect English and explained what the product was, so he did achieve a decent conversion rate already. I've had plenty more similar results and so have many other copywriters I presume.

The new copy grabbed their attention much better, and explained the benefits better. It created the urge within them to buy it, and it provided a solution to a large problem they have.

I sell to Business owners as well. They're intelligent people who understand the importance of the right communication towards their visitors and prospects. People can assume what they like, but my clients are now the ones who are making more money than they ever have before, and that's all I care about.

Also, there's a massive difference between 'ok' copy, and copy from a professional. It's MANY very subtle differences which have personally taken me many years to learn and understand. There's a reason why it takes so long and why copywriting is its own trade.

[Ali-v-8]

The problem is that there is two conversation earlier that stemmed in to this.
now we have an issue of value. Copy Vs SEO

Copy writers are a valuable asset to seo.
But to me thats ALL you are. An asset or a tool to be used to generate better position and help (and i only mean help) conversions.
It can help better adscores for PPC (not sure how correct i am on that one (steve))
It can help explain.
It can instruct.

But it alone cannot convince someone to spend £100 on something that is £30 cheaper and at the top of google. (not even a blind duck)

[directmarketingadvice]

Seems copywriters think the general public are stupid and gullible and think a few well chosen words will make the population buy a product over another site .

Translation: you think people are "stupid and gullible" if they are swayed by copy.

They also seem to have the ability to pull mass web traffic out of a hat.

If you can turn visitors into money better than your competitors, you can buy all the traffic you want.

I believe that price is what gets the sale in nearly all cases.

Utter nonsense.

If that were the case, everyone would drive the cheapest car on the market.

Steve

[directmarketingadvice]

Copy writers are a valuable asset to seo.
But to me thats ALL you are.

There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

Steve

[Matt1959]

How could i ask some1 who doesnt know anything about my products to write my sales copy?????????? I just do not get it.

a relevant point here:| I once asked a pro copywriter to give me a taster of what they could do with some text of my site and the results were laughable because they didnt "get" the type of business I was in nor the expectations or perceptions that potential clients had of it.

[Ali-v-8]

you lost me :|:|:|:|

There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

Steve

[KM-Tiger]

Hamlet isn't just a cigar.

[Scott-CopyandDesign]

The problem is that there is two conversation earlier that stemmed in to this.
now we have an issue of value. Copy Vs SEO

Copy writers are a valuable asset to seo.
But to me thats ALL you are. An asset or a tool to be used to generate better position and help (and i only mean help) conversions.
It can help better adscores for PPC (not sure how correct i am on that one (steve))
It can help explain.
It can instruct.

But it alone cannot convince someone to spend £100 on something that is £30 cheaper and at the top of google. (not even a blind duck)

Why are you talking about SEO again? It has nothing to do with copywriting and we aren't comparing copywriting to SEO at all.

Either way you're very wrong. Copywriters are a valuable asset to every business because copy can convert prospects and visitors into sales. For the 100th time Ali, SEO isn't the only source of traffic on the Internet. There's dozens of different marketing methods online and offline which require properly written copy.

For example, copy on a leaflet can EASILY mean the difference between hundreds of sales and absolutely none. Just because you have text there (even if it makes sense) it doesn't automatically mean that it should work to some degree.

[sirearl]

. If that were the case, everyone would drive the cheapest car on the market.

Steve

Thats really stupid .

people drive the model they want ,but pay the lowest price they can for that model.

Projection Re-translation you think people are stupid and gulible.

As you have no idea what I think.

Earl

[QVA - Emma]

I'll keep this short as I'm too tired!:eek:

Good copy works on those who bother to read it.

A great price works on those looking for it.

A combination of the two and Roberts your Mother's brother.:D

Emma

[Peter Bowen]

I love it when I stumble upon a website where real attention has been paid to the details. The spelling, grammar and punctuation are correct and the words have been crafted to convey meaning.

I grabbed a paragraph off one of the websites that the OP links to in his signature. Editcentral.com suggests that it needs 26 years of education to understand. I wonder how many more people would buy if they understood what it meant.

Great, persuasive copy is worth millions.

[sirearl]

I'll keep this short as I'm too tired!:eek:

Good copy works on those who bother to read it.

A great price works on those looking for it.

A combination of the two and Roberts your Mother's brother.:D

Emma

To true but 98% are looking for a good price.

and me mothers brother is Alfonso.

Earl

[UKSBD]

how long before copwriters become scriptwriters?

http://www.uksmallbusinessdirectory.co.uk/business-listings.asp?strCompanyName=i-tuts.com
(need your speakers on)

and is it the same skills involved?

[Ali-v-8]

If you read what i said i did say there were advantages for ppc. copy can increase help increase adscore.
Also i stated that copy is a good tool for seo
I will agree that copy can help sway a man into using your service.

And i must say over the last few post i can see the point being made.

But to me your still a tool. :D
And i mean no offence by that comment.


Why are you talking about SEO again? It has nothing to do with copywriting and we aren't comparing copywriting to SEO at all.

Either way you're very wrong. Copywriters are a valuable asset to every business because copy can convert prospects and visitors into sales. For the 100th time Ali, SEO isn't the only source of traffic on the Internet. There's dozens of different marketing methods online and offline which require properly written copy.

For example, copy on a leaflet can EASILY mean the difference between hundreds of sales and absolutely none. Just because you have text there (even if it makes sense) it doesn't automatically mean that it should work to some degree.

[directmarketingadvice]

Thats really stupid .

people drive the model they want

And what makes them want that model?

Projection Re-translation you think people are stupid and gulible.

As you have no idea what I think.

Right back at you re. your original post in this thread.

Steve

[sirearl]

Right back at you re. your original post in this thread.

Steve

Oh come on steve the whole of advertising works on the premise.:D

Earl

[Scott-CopyandDesign]

As you have no idea what I think.

Earl

Seems copywriters think the general public are stupid and gullible

Bit hypocritical don't you think :rolleyes:.

I'll keep this short as I'm too tired!:eek:

Good copy works on those who bother to read it.

A great price works on those looking for it.

A combination of the two and Roberts your Mother's brother.:D

Emma

This is actually true. I wrote a blog (http://www.chapmancopyanddesign.co.uk/blog/44/long-copy-and-short-copy-to-maximise-sales-do-a-bit-of-both/) about a similar subject a while ago.

To true but 98% are looking for a good price.

and me mothers brother is Alfonso.

Earl

It's difficult to take you or your debate seriously when you pick numbers out of thin air. Unless you have really studied sales psychology and buying behaviour, then you don't have a clue what makes people really buy. What you think (and even what your own customers think) is not representative of what millions of others think.

What is your sites sales conversion rate at the moment Earl? Even though you get probably thousands of visitors, you could be missing out on getting even double the number of sales from them because you're so stubborn about this subject :rolleyes:. Believe what you want though; it's your income and business, not mine.

[directmarketingadvice]

Oh come on steve the whole of advertising works on the premise.:D

More projection. (and confiriming my suggestion that you were projecting in your original post)

Do you have any evidence to back this up?

Are you saying that everyone here who has advertised their business has set out to take advantage of the "stupid and gullible"?

It couldn't possibly be that they feel their product or service offers great value and they want to tell people why?

Steve

[sirearl]

And what makes them want that model?



Right back at you re. your original post in this thread.

Steve

Rubbish its not my supposition.

A little light reading.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial&hs=fM0&q=advertising+psychology&btnG=Search&meta=

Earl

[directmarketingadvice]

Rubbish its not my supposition.

Funny, you keep trying to answer that same part over and over, while ignoring the other question "And what makes them want that model?".

Ok, if it's not your "supposition", what is your supposition?

Steve

[sirearl]

Bit hypocritical don't you think :rolleyes:.





Not at all no one knows whats in my mind except myself.

Where as the advertising industry publishes millions of articles about copy writing and advertising in general.

some of which I am sure you have probably studied.?;)

Earl

[seedstotal]

I work for a site (not mine unfortunately, just do the despatch) average turnover 12k a day.
Products are cheap cheap cheap and the site is on the first page for lots of keywords. Those 2 are the key element! Quality hmmm... seen much better, defenetly value for money. Copywrite hmmm wasnt a big deal.
It is just my experience.
You can argue here who is most superior, SEOs, PPC managers, Copywriters
There is a market for all of you, you all know much more about all of these things than I will ever. Just trying to help the argument with my experience here. But Im sure nobody cares!?:redface:

[Colin Parker]

You know what ... I am a copywriter ... BUT ... I am also a direct marketer.

So ... if I found by testing that I could get a greater conversion and ROI by simply putting a low price next to a picture of my product/service rather than writing motivating copy ...

Guess what ... I'd stick a low price next to a picture.

Question Earl ... have you ever properly tested your price theory against copy on your own sites? Honestly?

Colin Parker

[directmarketingadvice]

Where as the advertising industry publishes millions of articles about copy writing and advertising in general.

some of which I am sure you have probably studied.?;)

Some. Obviously, I must have missed the ones that said marketing is about taking advantage of the "stupid" and the "gullible".

I was probably too busy reading this advice instead:

"The consumer isn't a moron; she is your wife. You insult her intelligence if you assume that a mere slogan and a few vapid adjectives will persuade her to buy anything. She wants all the information you can give her."

and

"Never Write an Advertisement Which You Wouldn't Want Your Own Family To Read. You wouldn't tell lies to your own wife. Don't tell them to mine. Do as you would be done by."

Not at all no one knows whats in my mind except myself.


Really. So the following wasn't in your mind:

Seems copywriters think the general public are stupid and gullible and think a few well chosen words will make the population buy a product over another site .

Interesting that you won't even stand behind the things you write. Having read them, I can understand why... but it's interesting, nevertheless. :D

Steve

[sirearl]

Question Earl ... have you ever properly tested your price theory against copy on your own sites? Honestly?

Colin Parker

Colin I have been involved in price wars on the internet for many years and can assure you that for commonly procured products price is the major factor shown by our customer feedback to be the major factor why they chose us,followed by customer service and speed of delivery.

This is for a very varied range of different popular products ranging in price from a few pounds to many thousands.

In the areas where we have a more niche market ,then price is not always a factor.

Earl

[Scott-CopyandDesign]

Not at all no one knows whats in my mind except myself.

Where as the advertising industry publishes millions of articles about copy writing and advertising in general.

some of which I am sure you have probably studied.?;)

Earl

I've avoided a few US-based and 'direct marketing' type copywriters because I think a lot of is it is a load of trollop to be honest. It focuses on a specific type of copy and a specific type of consumer, and when I write copy for UK businesses, this is not what they're selling to.

There's a very good side and a very bad side to copywriting - it's the same with all industries. There's good design, bad design; good web dev, bad web dev; good accounting, bad accounting; good quad bikes, bad quad bikes - and so on.

I'm not sure why copywriting tends so suffer so much from the brush covered in tar.

I work for a site (not mine unfortunately, just do the despatch) average turnover 12k a day.
Products are cheap cheap cheap and the site is on the first page for lots of keywords. Those 2 are the key element! Quality hmmm... seen much better, defenetly value for money. Copywrite hmmm wasnt a big deal.
It is just my experience.
You can argue here who is most superior, SEOs, PPC managers, Copywriters
There is a market for all of you, you all know much more about all of these things than I will ever. Just trying to help the argument with my experience here. But Im sure nobody cares!?:redface:

It entirely depends on the market. I've turned people away before because I didn't think that any copy could do them any favours; no matter how good it is.

Many situations are based almost entirely on price, and it is a key factor in the 'marketing mix'. Do you think Ladbrokes are after quality when they produce their tiny red pens? They want the cheapest they can get. Many businesses will simply want the cheapest flyers available, whilst some will want quality above all else.

However, you don't need one or the other. If you have a very low price, but you also portray quality and benefits within the product by using copy, then it puts your product/service in a MUCH better position for selling. Why choose cheap when they can have cheap and good quality? Cheap can put across the feeling of low quality, which is why copy is very important to counter-act that and display quality with plenty of features and benefits.

Reminds me of a story I read in a copywriting book (can't remember who's it was; steve will probably know). A market stall in a foreign country was selling Jewellery to tourists at a very low price, but barely making any sales. The man behind the book then advised them to double their price I think it was (or maybe even triple it). So they did this, and the next day they had sold out.

[sirearl]

Some. Obviously, I must have missed the ones that said marketing is about taking advantage of the "stupid" and the "gullible".

I was probably too busy reading this advice instead:

"The consumer isn't a moron; she is your wife. You insult her intelligence if you assume that a mere slogan and a few vapid adjectives will persuade her to buy anything. She wants all the information you can give her."

and

"Never Write an Advertisement Which You Wouldn't Want Your Own Family To Read. You wouldn't tell lies to your own wife. Don't tell them to mine. Do as you would be done by."



Really. So the following wasn't in your mind:



Interesting that you won't even stand behind the things you write. Having read them, I can understand why... but it's interesting, nevertheless. :D

Steve

Steve as advertising revolves around the psychological manipulation of the population.( I.E trying to make people feel inadequate unless they have a certain product e.t.c )

what conclusion would you draw from that.?

Earl

[seedstotal]

Finally some1 said it!:eek::D:p
Everyone can thank Scott

[directmarketingadvice]

Steve as advertising revolves around the psychological manipulation of the population.( I.E trying to make people feel inadequate unless they have a certain product e.t.c )

what conclusion would you draw from that.?l

That you live in fantasy world.

Story #1: I saw a trailer for a film (i.e. a form of advertising). The trailer led me to think the film would be enjoyable, so I went to see it.

Where in that advertising process did they use "psychological manipulation" to make me feel "inadequate"?

Story #2: A few years ago, Michael O'Leary owned the favourite in the Ryanair Chase at the Cheltenham festival.

When interviewed on Ch4 before the race, he said that, if his horse won, Ryanair would give away 100,000* tickets for free (i.e. taxes only).

Watching this, I thought, "I hope it wins. I'll grab some of these tickets."

Was that because I was feeling "inadequate"? Or because it was going to be an outstanding offer?

(BTW, his horse lost, so there was no sale)

I could come up with hundreds of these examples.

Steve

* I can't remember the real number of tickets or the actual details of the offer, but it was a great offer.

[sirearl]

Oh for FS Steve picking on a few examples is not typical of main stream adds.

Why the hell do you think the guy gets the girl if he buys a particular car or product.

Or wash your barnet with xy shampoo and leave Tracy fiddlesticks sitting on her lonesome.

Pretty naive for a marketing guy.

Earl

[Scott-CopyandDesign]

Some people seem to think that copy is supposed to make products and services look better than they actually are. People seem to think that copy is designed to be deceptive, and persuade someone to buy something they don't really want.

This couldn't be further from the truth. Good copy is there to make a product and service seem as it is - simple as that. Visitors cannot be expected to fully understand a products' benefits and features without the information there. Good copy explains all of this, and is written in a way which makes it compelling to read.

[Colin Parker]

Colin I have been involved in price wars on the internet for many years and can assure you that for commonly procured products price is the major factor shown by our customer feedback to be the major factor why they chose us,followed by customer service and speed of delivery.

This is for a very varied range of different popular products ranging in price from a few pounds to many thousands.

In the areas where we have a more niche market ,then price is not always a factor.

Earl

Earl, I understand of course that a low price is more critical to success in some markets than others.

However, are you saying that conversion on your sites could only be increased by lower prices ... and not merely by better copy and design?

Colin Parker

PS. Whilst I don't agree with you that the purpose of advertising is to make people feel 'inadequate' I know where you are coming from. I believe advertising is there to 'manipulate the emotions' of your potential customer. That ability to manipulate emotions is what really separates copywriters (and especially the truly great ones) from mere scribblers.

Colin Parker

[fisicx]

Earl, I understand of course that a low price is more critical to success in some markets than others.

However, are you saying that conversion on your sites could only be increased by lower prices ... and not merely by better copy and design?
Exactly what I was thinking. Get the price right then tweak the copy to get more of the yes-maybes and perhaps even turn some of the no-maybes.

I'm still not conviced that price is the great driver. A client was told by a customer to increase the price of his printing services - he was seen as too cheap and therefore of poor quality. Instead of trying to compete on price he now offers a superior service and is taking customers away from his nearest competitors.

(Last thing I brought online wasn't the cheapest - it was the availablilty, delivery and trust in the vendor that helped me to decide).

[directmarketingadvice]

Oh for FS Steve picking on a few examples is not typical of main stream adds.

So, "compare the Meerkat", that's about "inadequacy", is it?

Or the ad where, when people spill things, an Elephant appears?

Or the out-of-tune 118 274 ad?

Or the Mr T "get some nuts" ads?

Of course, none of those are in the "main stream"...

Pretty naive for a marketing guy.

Your taking a handful of ads and generalising to all ads. But, as I've just shown, it's simply not the case.

Maybe you should spend less time listening to theories and more time with your eyes open.

Steve

[garyk]

Do you really think there eloquent words makes you buy a product.


Absolutely I do. Although I wouldnt necessarily say eloquent words is the key, most copywriters use specific words which are simple and most importantly write from the prospects point of view. Of course it isn't just the words, its typically a combination of good copy, a compelling offer, scarcity tactics (order now only 34 sets remaining etc.) risk reversal (money back) etc.


I believe that price is what gets the sale in nearly all cases.

Earl

I disagree, I have seen master copywriters sell very high price ticket items just from a sales letter, 3k upwards, the bottom line is that takes skill, you have to draw your prospect in, create compelling reasons, build credibility around the offer to the point where the price becomes less important as your prospect starts to think of what they are missing out on if they don't buy.

If a prospect thinks the price is too high then it *could* be because the copy hasn't convinced them of the value of the proposition.

What I love about copywriting (When I do it which isnt often enough) is that it works for any media, and I can get away from this interwebby thing that everyone is obsessed with and get back pen, paper, good old letters and classified ads.

Thats my take on it!

Gary

[Colin Parker]

I believe advertising is there to 'manipulate the emotions' of your potential customer. That ability to manipulate emotions is what really separates copywriters (and especially the truly great ones) from mere scribblers.

Some copy will deliberately make the reader feel inadequate, or worried, or anguished, or on the other hand imbue a sense of longing, or desire, or aspiration to name but just a very few emotional responses.

The emotion you seek to motivate depends on whether you are selling a ***** enlarger or attire for the bigger man ... for example!

Colin Parker

[directmarketingadvice]

Some copy will deliberately make the reader feel inadequate

True, but that's a very small percentage.

And, in the times it's done competently, it's usually using "problem-agitate-solution" - i.e. taking an existing sense of inadequacy, emphasising it and offering a solution.

However, to assume that "all advertising" or "most" is focused on that - which seems to be Earl's claim - is just nonsense.

There's far more advertising that's about fulfilling desire (e.g. holiday ads), solving simple problems (Cillit Bang), saving money (Compare the market) etc.

Steve

[sirearl]

However, are you saying that conversion on your sites could only be increased by lower prices ... and not merely by better copy and design?

Colin Parker



No good copy is better than bad copy,but don't hold a candle to 2 for the price of 1.:)

Earl

[sirearl]

PS. Whilst I don't agree with you that the purpose of advertising is to make people feel 'inadequate' I know where you are coming from. I believe advertising is there to 'manipulate the emotions' of your potential customer. That ability to manipulate emotions is what really separates copywriters (and especially the truly great ones) from mere scribblers.

Colin Parker

I agree that the purpose of advertising is not to make people feel inadequate,but it would seem to be a major principle for advertisers in recent times.

Hence kids killing each other for there Nike trainers e.t.c.

A status driven culture.?

Earl

[fisicx]

No good copy is better than bad copy,but don't hold a candle to 2 for the price of 1.:)
But you actually have to say the words '2 for 1' - that in itself is marketing copy (albeit a very short piece).

[Ali-v-8]

Sorry steve, dont mean to correct you but main rule of marketing is to CREATE desire, not fulfil it.



There's far more advertising that's about fulfilling desire (e.g. holiday ads), solving simple problems (Cillit Bang), saving money (Compare the market) etc.

Steve

[Colin Parker]

I still come back to the overriding factor ... and that is TESTING.

'People buy on emotions and justify with logic' is a key element of understanding buying physchology.

Testing copy and pictures to motivate different emotions and monitoring how they affect conversion is to me one of the factors that differentiates true direct marketers and copywriters from the scribblers.

This thread could run longer than the Mousetrap ....

Colin Parker

[sirearl]

This thread could run longer than the Mousetrap ....

Colin Parker

Funny you should mention that.:D:D:D

Earl

[directmarketingadvice]

Sorry steve, dont mean to correct you but main rule of marketing is to CREATE desire, not fulfil it.

I don't know where you get that from. Sounds like one of those "Ivory Tower" theories to me.

Steve

[Colin Parker]

Sorry steve, dont mean to correct you but main rule of marketing is to CREATE desire, not fulfil it.

Marketing can create desire and fulfill desire.

It can satisfy a want or create a need.

There is only one simple rule by which marketing is judged ... does it create response. PERIOD ... IMO.

Colin Parker

[Ali-v-8]

Advertising is offering a service or product to end user.
Marketing is making end user think that they need it. IMO thats where copy could be a very important tool.

[TheWordWell]

First, may I say I am staggered by your comments Earl. I wonder if you are just stirring the pot to get a reaction?

I’ll start with a story, rather than an image. I recently re-wrote a website for someone who knows their business inside out. He should have been able to write about it, shouldn’t he? Apart from not having the time, he had no idea how to write in a concise, punchy way. His site wasn’t performing either and he just couldn’t get his message across. At that stage, it was nothing to do with price whatsoever!

I took on the challenge, did research, tested some keywords and wrote his site. The result? He was not only delighted with the website but it is now on the first page of Google , enquiries have gone up by 60% and business has increased. It wasn’t magic - it was all about good writing, positioning, SEO and understanding the market.

I don’t claim to be a SEO expert, as my role is diverse. A copywriter is so much more than a label. Copywriters provide all sorts of services, from creative concept work and organising email campaigns, to article marketing and writing for print.

Copywriters help businesses to attract attention. Let’s face it: you have to create ‘desire’ before any sales can take place. (The AIDA principle: Attention - Interest - Desire - Action) Once that’s happened, the price issue comes into play. There is a lot of psychology involved in the buying process. It’s all about the emotions... If copy doesn’t meet emotional needs, the product/service won’t sell as well. Therefore, a copywriter’s role is to shape copy to suit the audience’s emotional needs. Feel free to read my blog post about psychology: http://thewordwell.co.uk/wordpress/copywriting/use-psychology-to-communicate-with-your-customers

It’s not just about how something looks or having a short description to ‘sell’ the product. A product - whatever it is - has to tick several boxes in the prospect’s mind. If you just have a picture and a brief description, you run the risk of ignoring the prospect’s needs. Copy that is focused ‘on’ the reader, and builds rapport - is likely to have more impact than copy which focuses on the product itself.

It’s not about ‘eloquent’ words Earl. It’s about words which the target audience will respond to. More often than not, simple, direct words are more effective than long, fancy ones. It’s not ‘what’ you say - it’s ‘how’ you say it. In copy I write, I build value and create trust. Clever techniques are used to get a response: a sale! That’s not just about writing - that’s about understanding the selling process.

One final point. I quoted a website job for someone starting a new business. In the end, the person decided to write the web copy himself. Once the website was live, I was staggered to see the website not only full of spelling/grammar errors, but much of it is written in a negative way. For me, it’s such as shame as I know I could have helped this guy to make a go of his new venture. If copy is a voice-piece for his business, it doesn’t come across as professional. To me, that’s a wasted opportunity.

Everyone has their value, Earl. To pick holes in other peoples’ professions and livelihood is unfair. As for saying ‘Copywriters think the general public are stupid and gullible’ is an inflammatory statement, which reveals far more about you than the topic in discussion.

[sirearl]

First, may I say I am staggered by your comments Earl. I wonder if you are just stirring the pot to get a reaction?

I’ll start with a story, rather than an image. I recently re-wrote a website for someone who knows their business inside out. He should have been able to write about it, shouldn’t he? Apart from not having the time, he had no idea how to write in a concise, punchy way. His site wasn’t performing either and he just couldn’t get his message across. At that stage, it was nothing to do with price whatsoever!

I took on the challenge, did research, tested some keywords and wrote his site. The result? He was not only delighted with the website but it is now on the first page of Google , enquiries have gone up by 60% and business has increased. It wasn’t magic - it was all about good writing, positioning, SEO and understanding the market.

I don’t claim to be a SEO expert, as my role is diverse. A copywriter is so much more than a label. Copywriters provide all sorts of services, from creative concept work and organising email campaigns, to article marketing and writing for print.

Copywriters help businesses to attract attention. Let’s face it: you have to create ‘desire’ before any sales can take place. (The AIDA principle: Attention - Interest - Desire - Action) Once that’s happened, the price issue comes into play. There is a lot of psychology involved in the buying process. It’s all about the emotions... If copy doesn’t meet emotional needs, the product/service won’t sell as well. Therefore, a copywriter’s role is to shape copy to suit the audience’s emotional needs. Feel free to read my blog post about psychology: http://thewordwell.co.uk/wordpress/copywriting/use-psychology-to-communicate-with-your-customers

It’s not just about how something looks or having a short description to ‘sell’ the product. A product - whatever it is - has to tick several boxes in the prospect’s mind. If you just have a picture and a brief description, you run the risk of ignoring the prospect’s needs. Copy that is focused ‘on’ the reader, and builds rapport - is likely to have more impact than copy which focuses on the product itself.

It’s not about ‘eloquent’ words Earl. It’s about words which the target audience will respond to. More often than not, simple, direct words are more effective than long, fancy ones. It’s not ‘what’ you say - it’s ‘how’ you say it. In copy I write, I build value and create trust. Clever techniques are used to get a response: a sale! That’s not just about writing - that’s about understanding the selling process.

One final point. I quoted a website job for someone starting a new business. In the end, the person decided to write the web copy himself. Once the website was live, I was staggered to see the website not only full of spelling/grammar errors, but much of it is written in a negative way. For me, it’s such as shame as I know I could have helped this guy to make a go of his new venture. If copy is a voice-piece for his business, it doesn’t come across as professional. To me, that’s a wasted opportunity.

Everyone has their value, Earl. To pick holes in other peoples’ professions and livelihood is unfair. As for saying ‘Copywriters think the general public are stupid and gullible’ is an inflammatory statement, which reveals far more about you than the topic in discussion.

Great post.:)

Stirring the pot would I.:eek:

Earl

[TheWordWell]

Great post.:)

Stirring the pot would I.:eek:

Earl

Don't think we've not noticed that wooden spoon you carry around with you...;)

And thanks - I appreciate your comment.

[Ali-v-8]

Thats no wooden spoon:rolleyes:
He's just happy to see you:D:p

Don't think we've not noticed that wooden spoon you carry around with you...;)

And thanks - I appreciate your comment.

[david poole]

Hi Earl!
it's a great question you pose.

hmmm how to answer this... it can be done in so many ways because your questions demands a full response but It's more of a phone call I think.

Anyway.

1)
There are 2 websites that are both visible to you.
Both have the same product
both at the same price
People tend to buy from the site they feel more comfortable with.

2) millions of sites are not for e-commerce
therefore price isn't the issue - It could be lead generation
The company wants the phone to ring.
So copy is vital


3) there is just so much more

[eventdomain]

a relevant point here:| I once asked a pro copywriter to give me a taster of what they could do with some text of my site and the results were laughable because they didnt "get" the type of business I was in nor the expectations or perceptions that potential clients had of it.

Spot on - there's no way any copywriter knows more about my business than I do - and that's why copywriting is over rated like it is.

Same applies to PPC advert writers - such 'professionals' don't and can't have the understanding of the products like the client has. And that knowledge is critical when doing any sales/promotion type work.

As good at sales as I am, there's no way I could suddenly begin selling insurance services, just bcos I'm good at speaking and have done it since birth!

The only external services I buy in, are where I don't have the knowledge eg: a specialty like Public relations, or Accountancy etc - its just knowledge I don't have. I think anyone can write good sales copy that works, perhaps not brilliant, but pretty good stuff - certainly enough to make some steady sales, which once got, will lead onto other things.

The ability to use what you have and get maximum advantage from that is worth more than any copywriting.

[sirearl]

Spot on - there's no way any copywriter knows more about my business than I do - and that's why copywriting is over rated like it is.

Same applies to PPC advert writers - such 'professionals' don't and can't have the understanding of the products like the client has. And that knowledge is critical when doing any sales/promotion type work.

As good at sales as I am, there's no way I could suddenly begin selling insurance services, just bcos I'm good at speaking and have done it since birth!

.

Don't you believe it,your business is hardly rocket science nor is insurance.

I am sure a reasonably intelligent person would grasp the whole concept in a very short time.

A copywriters skill comes from presenting your product in a must have manor,which general means they have a deep understanding of what motivates people to say "yes".:)

Earl

[directmarketingadvice]

Spot on - there's no way any copywriter knows more about my business than I do

It's not the copywriter's job to know more about your buisiness than you. It's his/her job to write better copy.

- Part of the reason they can write better copy is (should be) better technique.

- Another part is them knowing what works.

(I'm going to post something soon about a magazine that had 24 ads and every single one of those ads had serious mistakes).

- And, thirdly, they have an outside perspective on the business. Most business owners are far too close to what they're doing to see things from a prospect's perspective.

Now, some business owners have good copywriting technique and an objective sense of what they're offering and how it compares to the alternatives in the market. But, most don't. Which is why most D-I-Y copy is weak.

Steve

[TheWordWell]

Spot on - there's no way any copywriter knows more about my business than I do


No-one is disputing that... But, a copywriter looks for angles to present a business in its best light. A business owner isn't always able to do that.

[eventdomain]

Don't you believe it,your business is hardly rocket science nor is insurance.



Like a lamb to slaughter ;) Many have tried, and many will fail - without that domain knowledge.

[Scott-CopyandDesign]

- And, thirdly, they have an outside perspective on the business. Most business owners are far too close to what they're doing to see things from a prospect's perspective.


That is a killer when business owners write copy. The simple fact is, you will find your own products and services more interesting than total strangers will. You have passion and a deep interest in what you're selling, but the strangers don't have it at all (yet).

There are a number of issues when this happens:

1). You may focus on benefits you like, but others aren't interested in
2). You may write copy which you personally find enjoyable and interesting to read, but others don't

So, a good copywriter should be impartial, unbiased and fully understand how the prospect will see the copy.

There's a test I do to help me do this; I'll post it up soon.

[eventdomain]

Most business owners are far too close to what they're doing to see things from a prospect's perspective.

It depends on the individual/team involved in the business. Some general business skills can be picked up fairly quickly eg: Basic copywriting, email sales, planning skills, telesales, basic adwords, letter writing etc - doesn't mean a biz will fail bcos its owner can't handle copywriting to Journalist standard.

People buy for different reasons, er, that is to say that some elements act as the trigger to a sale. For instance, I think most will buy once trust is there, while some aren't bothered about trust so much - some just want information at that point in the relationship.

Other sales triggers might be:

A discount
Sales pitch
Special Offer
Size of the company

Not necessarily about the copy - heck, the product often sells itself without any pushing. Eg: a weblink for £20. An adwords advert etc etc

[Place of design]

what a load of goolies

Good SEO will bring the right traffic to the site
Good copy will increas conversion
Great product photography will increas conversion
Excelent typography will increase conversion
Great style will increase conversion
Understanding how people use a site and tweaking it out to reflect that will increase conversion

Anyone who thinks one factor is the be all and end all of a sucsessfull site, will produce/own a poor site

On top of all that, some sectors are different to others. some sales are technical, some are about feelings, some are just utility.. each will need a different sort of presentation

A size 14 washer in silver is just that. A georgous designer fitted sequin ball dress in a beautiful on the bias cut fabric is a different story again, A insurance policy is a totally different proposition

On will need a dead pan description, the other brilliant photography and a sensual description, the other a facts / benefits based description

A copy writer will struggle to increas sales of washers & screws, but will do do better with the dress and marvels with the insurace policy
A professional phootgrapher wont help sell washers or screws, will do wonders to the dress, and will struggle to help an insurance sale

etc. etc.
A

[An Oasis]

No good copy is better than bad copy,but don't hold a candle to 2 for the price of 1.:)

What, you really can talk total gibberish “2 for the price of 1 Ferrari” going cheap give me a break, yet another thread revolving round absolutely no firm concept ...

BTW I’ll have 30 * 250 Tr’s seeing as how you are offering, I’ll even pay cash I take it you can deliver!? Or is it just talk?

[sirearl]

What, you really can talk total gibberish “2 for the price of 1 Ferrari” going cheap give me a break, yet another thread revolving round absolutely no firm concept ...

BTW I’ll have 30 * 250 Tr’s seeing as how you are offering, I’ll even pay cash I take it you can deliver!? Or is it just talk?

Keep taking the pills and don't mix them with booze.;)

Those plants can't really hear you,no matter what Charlie boy says.

Earl

[An Oasis]

Keep taking the pills and don't mix them with booze.;)

Those plants can't really hear you,no matter what Charlie boy says.

Earl

Booze is good, keeps me sane in a world which appears to be littered with the righteous who can do no more than preach about my sins but can do sweet FA.

So I guess that's a no ? Great to see on a business forum, more useless dribble poring forth…Is there a sector that I can join that makes me immune to gibberish twaddle, or is it best to just stop returning to UKBF?

[eventdomain]

Anyone who thinks one factor is the be all and end all of a sucsessfull site


Well, it must be just the pagerank sellers then, clouding my mind :D

[SillyJokes]

My partner TopHat can't write for toffee. The very thought that he might do the copy for our site gives me shivers. However he makes a good site and I can't do that.

I do the best I can and try to incorporate what I have learnt over the years and read about copywriting. So in our case a copywriter is employed and it's me. I'm wracked with doubt over whether I do it properly though.

Sir Earl clearly doesn't suffer from doubt, but perhaps he should. He is impervious to anything but his own methods and no amount of arguing with him will be any use even though a lot of people can see that his sites could actually perform better. Sir Earl isn't interested in seeing if anyone else could be right.

I liked the fact that it was a post by a copywriter, presumably written using his scoffed at skills, which produced the most thanks on this thread, including Sir Earls.

[sirearl]

I liked the fact that it was a post by a copywriter, presumably written using his scoffed at skills, which produced the most thanks on this thread, including Sir Earls.

Did you really Think I don't listen to the experts in there various areas.?

Sometimes a red herring is needed to extract information.

I do in fact listen to all points of view,and extract the information that I think is usefull or needed.

How else do you think I became a genius.?:|

As for doubt well I am sure there are lots of things that could improve our turnover slightly in many areas,but I can't be arsed .I suppose I am rather a firm believer that if it ain't broke don't try fixing it till it is.;)

I expect you feel the same about your site.?

After 50 years of working one learns that being content with what you have is a major factor in life.

Earl

[TheWordWell]

My partner TopHat can't write for toffee. The very thought that he might do the copy for our site gives me shivers. However he makes a good site and I can't do that.

I do the best I can and try to incorporate what I have learnt over the years and read about copywriting. So in our case a copywriter is employed and it's me. I'm wracked with doubt over whether I do it properly though.

I liked the fact that it was a post by a copywriter, presumably written using his scoffed at skills, which produced the most thanks on this thread, including Sir Earls.
Morning...

Your post made me smile as sometimes we think we can do everything but in reality it's better to be honest with ourselves. I'd love to be able to design websites, for instance. But, I stick to copy, as that's where my strengths lie. That said, I have an eye for design and often suggest ideas to a client's wed-developer. (To ensure the copy fits with the design)

Copywriting is so diverse: One minute I could be writing a descriptive travel guide, full of juicy adjectives to create pictures in a reader's mind. The next could be spent creating copy which is factual and punchy. An hour later, the copy required might be technical and not need either of these styles.

My personal view is we should respect one another for what we contribute to keeping this country afloat (!) instead of slating people.

Between you and I (And the gatepost...) I'm sure Earl is an astute guy who does listen and take on board what people say. To thank me for my post shows the measure of him.

Anyway, I'm off to London. So, have a great day everyone. :D

[directmarketingadvice]

I thought I'd repost a post I made in March (http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=813390&postcount=19):

------------------

To give an idea of how much difference copy can make, I'll share something Clayton Makepeace said back in December.

Clayton is believed to be the world's highest paid copywriter - which tells you he knows his stuff.

(especially as most of his > $1m per year is from royalties)

But, he got a 2-1 beating from other copywriters, then wrote a new version and beat the control 3-1.

What this means is, having seen the version that beat him, he was able to write copy that had 6 times the conversion rate of his original.

In his words:

This “24-Hour Wonder” took one day to write, process crits and finalize ... and worked quite well.

We then tested this copy against a promo for the same product created by
an outside team of excellent writers who had much more time to perfect
their copy – and the outside copy beat this version by nearly two to one.

After studying what the outside writers had done and determining a few
key factors that I believed caused the lift, I took one day to write a new
sales page (page 15 of this document) which beat the team copy by three
to one and beat my Version #1 by six to one.

I then spent another day polishing my second version – mostly working
on the price presentation, guarantee and closing copy. The tests are still
ongoing, but on its first outing, Version #3 (page 27 of this document)
beat my Version #2 by eight to one.

(the page references are for the PDF (http://makepeacetotalpackage.com.s3.amazonaws.com/WCOCampaignComparison.pdf) he sent with the different versions of the copy)

I said recently that people don't buy your product, they buy your marketing/copy. And these numbers show how even two versions by the same world class copywriter can produce hugely different results.

Which is why you split-test stuff - only the market really knows which version is best.

If Weiss (Clayton's client) had just gone with Clayton's original copy - it was written by one of the best, after all - he'd have made good money, but he'd have thrown away 83% of his sales.

-------------------

Question: is copywriting important?

Answer: would increasing your conversion rate by 500% make a difference to your life?

Steve

[writecombination]

As a relative newcomer to copywriting and an absolute newcomer to UKBF I've followed this thread with varying degrees of interest.

Was it a good investment of my time? Polarised debates are often entertaining but rarely productive - in my experience.

Time for a coffee, I think...

[Ali-v-8]

Question: is copywriting important?

Answer: would increasing your conversion rate by 500% make a difference to your life?


When you put it like that steve I whole heartedly agree.

[sirearl]

Question: is copywriting important?

Answer: would increasing your conversion rate by 500% make a difference to your life?


When you put it like that steve I whole heartedly agree.

Hands up all those that would prefer there conversion rate to increase 500%

Or there Traffic to increase 500%.

Earl

[KM-Tiger]

Hands up all those that would prefer there conversion rate to increase 500%

Or there Traffic to increase 500%.

Good bit of copy writing that!

[Scott-CopyandDesign]

Hands up all those that would prefer there conversion rate to increase 500%

Or there Traffic to increase 500%.

Earl

My conversion rate...

If my conversion goes up by 500%, then ANY increases in traffic I receive (at any percentage) will convert 500% better - permanently. All it will have cost me is the one-off price of a copywriters service.

[Dawg]

Erse!
Increasing traffic any % is ducksh1te if conversions don't increase. A zillion more visitors, none of whom spend, is chocolate teapot rubbish. All you are doing is paying for bandwidth for no result. Traffic figures on their own are like measuring tractor manufacture by weight, more does not mean better.

Now if a clever SEO gets traffic up, and a gifted copywriter gets the conversions from that traffic up, well, then we are winning. Arguing about which is more betterer is as productive as starting a 'my little mac is luvvly' thread.
Feh.

[Ali-v-8]

Trick question earl.:rolleyes:
100% convertion highest possible.
With out traffic conversion is nothing.
100% 0f 0 is big fat zero


My conversion rate...

If my conversion goes up by 500%, then ANY increases in traffic I receive (at any percentage) will convert 500% better - permanently. All it will have cost me is the one-off price of a copywriters service.

[Scott-CopyandDesign]

Trick question earl.:rolleyes:
100% convertion highest possible.
With out traffic conversion is nothing.
100% 0f 0 is big fat zero

Are you talking to me or Earl?

[sirearl]

Trick question earl.:rolleyes:
100% convertion highest possible.
With out traffic conversion is nothing.
100% 0f 0 is big fat zero

No trick question just a question for website owners in general.

Earl

[directmarketingadvice]

Hands up all those that would prefer there conversion rate to increase 500%

Or there Traffic to increase 500%.

Earl

Conversion. It's a no-brainer.

Steve

[Ali-v-8]

Can we not just agree that traffic is as important as conversions

[SFD]

Can we not just agree that traffic is as important as conversions

Which is most important for my car, petrol or wheels?

[Scott-CopyandDesign]

Can we not just agree that traffic is as important as conversions

They're both needed, so yes.

However, if I had the option of an instant 500% increase in conversions, or a 500% increase in traffic, I would choose conversions.

This would give me a permanent boost in sales, and allow all future increases in traffic to convert at this significantly higher rate.

Although, as a copywriter, I'd probably choose the instant traffic, as I can get the improvement in conversions myself ;).

[Ali-v-8]

Problem is that 500% conversions is impossible. 100% is max.
If 100 people come on your website and you convert 100% that means you have sold to everyone.
But increasing traffic by 500% mean that you can increase conversions because there is more traffic. Your still at 100% conversion rate but there is 500 people to convert.

Ta dahh Traffic wins.




They're both needed, so yes.

However, if I had the option of an instant 500% increase in conversions, or a 500% increase in traffic, I would choose conversions.

This would give me a permanent boost in sales, and allow all future increases in traffic to convert at this significantly higher rate.

Although, as a copywriter, I'd probably choose the instant traffic, as I can get the improvement in conversions myself ;).

[SFD]

Problem is that 500% conversions is impossible. 100% is max.

I don't actually know if you are being serious or not.

500% increase on current conversion rate, not 500% conversion rate.

[Scott-CopyandDesign]

Problem is that 500% conversions is impossible. 100% is max.
If 100 people come on your website and you convert 100% that means you have sold to everyone.
But increasing traffic by 500% mean that you can increase conversions because there is more traffic. Your still at 100% conversion rate but there is 500 people to convert.

Ta dahh Traffic wins.

I don't think you quite understand...

500% INCREASE. It is, in a sense, 5 times more than the current 100%.

You need to read up on percentages.

[sirearl]

I don't think you quite understand...

500% INCREASE. It is, in a sense, 5 times more than the current 100%.

You need to read up on percentages.


Oh you kids it means a 500% increase in whatever your conversion is at present.:rolleyes::)

Earl

[directmarketingadvice]

Let's imagine 2 businesses that each make £10,000 a month profit.

Business A is 100% SEO traffic. So, they have zero advertising cost and £10,000 a month net sales.

(let's assume no fixed costs)

Business B is 100% PPC. They spend £20,000 a month to make £30,000 in net sales. (150% ROI on their Adwords, not unreasonable)

Now, business A increases their traffic by 500%, so they're making £60,000 a month.

Business B increases conversions by 500%, meaning they're now spending £20,000 to make £180,000, leaving them with £160,000 a month. That's £100,000 a month more than Business A.

If traffic and conversion were somehow "equal", where did this £100,000 a month come from?

Steve

[Mystro]

Oh you kids it means a 500% increase on whatever your conversion is at present.:rolleyes::)

Earl

That made me laugh

[sirearl]

Let's imagine 2 businesses that each make £10,000 a month profit.

Business A is 100% SEO traffic. So, they have zero advertising cost and £10,000 a month net sales.

(let's assume no fixed costs)

Business B is 100% PPC. They spend £20,000 a month to make £30,000 in net sales. (150% ROI on their Adwords, not unreasonable)

Now, business A increases their traffic by 500%, so they're making £60,000 a month.

Business B increases conversions by 500%, meaning they're now spending £20,000 to make £180,000, leaving them with £160,000 a month. That's £100,000 a month more than Business A.

If traffic and conversion were somehow "equal", where did this £100,000 a month come from?

Steve

Theoretically your right .Theoretically were all going to be mega rich.

Earl

[G. Lasagne]

Problem is that 500% conversions is impossible. 100% is max.
If 100 people come on your website and you convert 100% that means you have sold to everyone.
But increasing traffic by 500% mean that you can increase conversions because there is more traffic. Your still at 100% conversion rate but there is 500 people to convert.

Ta dahh Traffic wins.

And i though us geordies were meant to be the slow ones, the ta dahh bit just made it worse :D

[directmarketingadvice]

the ta dahh bit just made it worse :D

Dave, I think you mean "better". :D

Steve

[Place of design]

blimey

take a crap site with a conversion of 0.1%

increase the conversion by 500% and the conversion will be 0.5%

Increase it by another 500% and you have a reasonable (ish) 2.5%

There is no point in paying to drive visitors to a site which isnt converting

A good copywriter can make may actually increase AOV too, allongside increasing conversion

[Ali-v-8]

my head hurts.
I think I misread some where.
i Always assumed that the % was of the total amount of visitor.
I.E. 50% of 150 = 75 there fore increasing conversions by 100% would mean the 50% becomes 100%.

[KM-Tiger]

Ali:

There are lies, damned lies, statistics, ... and Earl's percentages.

That was a curve ball cleverly designed to confuse everyone.

As I said before - an excellent piece of copy!

[SillyJokes]

If you can increase your conversion with good copy that is practically a permanent improvement.

A vast improvement in traffic can't be taken for granted to continue.

[sirearl]

Now tell me again .what is it that a business needs above all else.?;)

Earl

[Place of design]

Now tell me again .what is it that a business needs above all else.?;)

Earl
(well stocked) beer fridges

[medom]

I think that you find that most of it is to do with these website being found by the robots from the search engines.

[Ali-v-8]

MAKE MONEY. :D:D

Now tell me again .what is it that a business needs above all else.?;)

Earl

[sirearl]

Blimey its like watch with mother.

try this (http://www.thetimes100.co.uk/theory/theory--why-customers-are-important--283.php)

Earl

[stilyan]

I think that you find that most of it is to do with these website being found by the robots from the search engines.
Very cool, looking great so far. Keep going, I wanna see it finished! :):rolleyes:
_

[Dawg]

Blimey its like watch with mother.

try this (http://www.thetimes100.co.uk/theory/theory--why-customers-are-important--283.php)

Earl

Why don't you just say "customers" instead of linking away from the page.
Anyway, traffic is not the same as customers. Traffic is like footfall in a shopping precinct, and includes the squalling infants, the villains, the broke, and all those who are not prospects.
Prospects are targeted traffic, rather than traffic for it's own sake, and targeted traffic is that traffic likely to convert. And the conversion will be done, at least partly, by decent copy.
For someone who has a reputation, at least on this forum, for knowing about SEO and SEM, I'm surprised you can't acknowledge this.

[Clodbuster]

I have 2 products that do the same function.
1/. Is cheap, locally produced, every Tom, Dick and Harry has it, no warranty
2/. Imported, 25% more expensive, better quality, has a warranty. No other site (or shop) has it.

Product 2 outsells 1. so I think the copy does help.

[sirearl]

Why don't you just say "customers" instead of linking away from the page.
.

Oh I thought just maybe my opinion having the support of The times.

Might be a good idea,plus some usefull information on there.:)

I do find rather a lot of people tend not to agree with me.:eek:

But then there's more out than in.;)

Earl

[KM-Tiger]

But then there's more out than in.;)

Any chance of a translation of that last sentence?

[directmarketingadvice]

Reminds me of a story I read in a copywriting book (can't remember who's it was; steve will probably know). A market stall in a foreign country was selling Jewellery to tourists at a very low price, but barely making any sales. The man behind the book then advised them to double their price I think it was (or maybe even triple it). So they did this, and the next day they had sold out.

I think "Influence" by Cialdini has a story along these lines.

If I remember correctly, a shop had some products that just weren't selling. So, the owner told the assistant to cut the prices. The assistant misunderstood and increased them instead. (quite significantly)

And, because they seemed more valuable, the items quickly sold out at the higher price.

(I think it was some sort of jewellery - but it's been a long time since I read the book)

Steve

[SillyJokes]

Now tell me again .what is it that a business needs above all else.?;)

Earl

Of course it needs traffic to make money, I don't think anyone would turn away traffic but with one Florida update a lot of your traffic can vanish overnight.

Can you guarantee that the traffic you generate this month is going to continue ad infinitum?

Also you might suddenly get a mention on an influential blog online and get a huge but short lived traffic surge. Wouldn't it be great to know that you spent some effort on getting your copy right six months ago so you maxed out the available sales from this surge without having to make another penny's payment?

Jeepers, I'm even beginning to sound like a copywriter now.

[sirearl]

Of course it needs traffic to make money, I don't think anyone would turn away traffic but with one Florida update a lot of your traffic can vanish overnight.

Can you guarantee that the traffic you generate this month is going to continue ad infinitum?



A business needs customers not just traffic.

and I hope the traffic generated last month is not the same as last month as for ad infinitum well it has always grown for over 10 years as it should do with the increase in web users .

And sorry but like the 1987 hurricane I must have slept through the Florida update.

Earl

[Dawg]

A business needs customers not just traffic.

and I hope the traffic generated last month is not the same as last month as for ad infinitum well it has always grown for over 10 years as it should do with the increase in web users .

And sorry but like the 1987 hurricane I must have slept through the Florida update.

Earl

^^^The case for copywriters...

WTF does any of it mean? The 1987 hurricane slept through the Florida update?

Perhaps you just don't understand copy?

[sirearl]

^^^The case for copywriters...

WTF does any of it mean? The 1987 hurricane slept through the Florida update?

Perhaps you just don't understand copy?

Now then Dawg watch the old blood pressure ,the response was to sillyjoke comments.

strange how you seem to have so much problem understanding English .?

Must be all that gobldygook you use.

Or have you been eating the stock again.?:p

Earl

[eventdomain]

a shop had some products that just weren't selling. So, the owner told the assistant to cut the prices. The assistant misunderstood and increased them instead. (quite significantly)

And, because they seemed more valuable, the items quickly sold out at the higher price.

But Products and Services are different. Services are always tougher to sell, bcos the effort/skill expended is vastly different depending on who is hired - this makes it difficult for customers to select who is best, and there's obvious risk attached.

The problem with Copywriting is every Tom on the web says the same thing eg: we are the best, and seeing as the poor customer can't judge the outcome until

a) the copy is added to the site/gets indexed/starts working

b) customer has to pay up front before results (if any)

so, its a massive risk which is based on uncertain knowledge and skills from a total stranger they know nothing about.

And with prices from £80 for a single email sales letter (Yes I've got quotes), its too expensive an option for many. Now if a sales letter costs £80 -£120, how much is web copy, maybe £1000?

And what if such copy fails for the customer, what then? The customer is out of pocket and left with something that fails by whatever percentage of lack of sales. This isn't good.

How many times must the customer pay out to unskilled wannabees before they find the right copy that works...... And that's where the huge risk is for the customer.

[Matt1959]

surely its like any other service you might want to take up?? I know there are people that get sucked into a providers hype but the astute do their homework and chose someone based either on recommendation or on references from those that have used the service - how is copywriting any different to all the other services available?? And, as a novice to this but still a small business owner, I would have thought the cost of writing a sales letter whether it be £20/ £80/ £120 is irrelevant if the letter is a good one and does the job - in fact I would expect the £30 letter to be not much good at all.........

[eventdomain]

but the astute do their homework and chose someone based either on recommendation or on references


Like someone will ring round former clients to check up on a copywriter - it won't happen.


how is copywriting any different to all the other services available??


Just like Copywriting is different to Retail sales :| Some services are easy to work out what one is getting, and the likely outcome of the risk. Some services you only have gut feeling to go on, others results are based on common knowledge, and far less risk involved eg: people know adverts & weblinks - they know what they are, know they work and can be cheaply tested if there's any uncertainty. And if a weblink doesn't produce much, it will at least be a way for traffic to find you, thus no great risk - and merely a punt..... Copywriting isn't like that, as it relies on human skill, which may or may not work. You could be fooled into a service and end up with little, where at least with weblinks, you are getting something solid and with longevity (unless the site goes bust ofcourse).


in fact I would expect the £30 letter to be not much good at all.........

Why? See you won't know until you pay for it anyway, but your using the example to argue that price equals results, and this is risky also. Don't forget the web is a bit cheaper anyway, and hopefully you'll do some research and check the credibility behind the service before you use.

But I hear you, and personally I wouldn't spend £30 on a sales letter either, but that's just bcos I'd do it myself anyway - others might not have the skill to do that.

I think the golden rule is to never spend crazy money on something that can't be easily checked out. Theres a lot to be said for trust and the genuine companies/websites are easy to spot, and will not hide anything.

[G. Lasagne]

Dave, I think you mean "better". :D

Steve

Worse for him i meant, and better for us:)

[G. Lasagne]

Im going to get shot down here;), but i think i could set up as a professional copy writer tomorrow, and do just as good a job as some of the people charging ridiculous sums of money. loads of calls to action, the key points in bold, tell the customer what you can do for them blah blah blah.

I tell you what somebody give both me and scott a product to sell and we will both write some copy for it, and then we will post them on here and put it to the vote:)

Then if i lose we can all agree that a copy writer is a valuable asset, as not just any old plumber can do it.

Are you up for the challenge scott?

[Colin Parker]

Im going to get shot down here;), but i think i could set up as a professional copy writer tomorrow, and do just as good a job as some of the people charging ridiculous sums of money. loads of calls to action, the key points in bold, tell the customer what you can do for them blah blah blah.

I tell you what somebody give both me and scott a product to sell and we will both write some copy for it, and then we will post them on here and put it to the vote:)

Then if i lose we can all agree that a copy writer is a valuable asset, as not just any old plumber can do it.

Are you up for the challenge scott?

You could set up as a 'professional' copywriter tomorrow?

You had better learn 'professional' punctuation and 'professional' grammar tonight then ... because to use your words "not just any old plumber can do it".

On the last point I most definitely agree.

In fact ... you have just proved it.

Colin Parker

[G. Lasagne]

You could set up as a 'professional' copywriter tomorrow?

You had better learn 'professional' punctuation and 'professional' grammar tonight then ... because to use your words "not just any old plumber can do it".

On the last point I most definitely agree.

In fact ... you have just proved it.

Colin Parker

My grammar on this forum is a lot different to my grammar when writing quotes and writing copy for my website.

I dont take care to ensure my spelling and grammar is top notch when posting on ukbf, because i dont need to, its not an english exam.

However if i was to write something that would have a direct effect on my business reputation then the grammar etc would be perfect.

I am not trying to sell my services on here (unlike some:rolleyes:) so dont care if my english comes across as crap.

So in short it proves NOTHING, i tell you what colin, write me a piece of copy to sell a hole punch and i will do the same, it must be posted on the forum by monday morning.

Are you up to the challenge????

That will be your proof:D

[Scott-CopyandDesign]

Im going to get shot down here;), but i think i could set up as a professional copy writer tomorrow, and do just as good a job as some of the people charging ridiculous sums of money. loads of calls to action, the key points in bold, tell the customer what you can do for them blah blah blah.

I tell you what somebody give both me and scott a product to sell and we will both write some copy for it, and then we will post them on here and put it to the vote:)

Then if i lose we can all agree that a copy writer is a valuable asset, as not just any old plumber can do it.

Are you up for the challenge scott?

Well there's about a half-dozen grammar mistakes in there so you've lost already. ;)

If you haven't had any experience in writing copy then you will lose. If you really want to give it a go though then I'm up for it.

Mind you, a vote isn't the best way of finding out what works and what doesn't. I've had clients who are confused as to why I have typed up certain things until it all actually works well.

[G. Lasagne]

Well there's about a half-dozen grammar mistakes in there so you've lost already. ;)

If you haven't had any experience in writing copy then you will lose. If you really want to give it a go though then I'm up for it.

Mind you, a vote isn't the best way of finding out what works and what doesn't. I've had clients who are confused as to why I have typed up certain things until it all actually works well.

seee abive aboot the gramar ;)

Ok well how about some copy for selling a hole punch, no more than 1 a4 page, not a web page as i wouldn't know where to start, just a headline followed by some text.

Completed by monday morning?

If you win, then i may give you a call to help with my copy, if you lose then you have to admit that north shields is better than south shields.
Please dont do this if you dont want to, i would understand if you feel it may have a negative effect on your business, unless you win of course then you would prove a massive point.

As far as voting it is the only way to do it as it will be which one would members most likely buy from.

Let the games begin

[TheWordWell]

And who will be the judge? :|

[Scott-CopyandDesign]

seee abive aboot the gramar ;)

Ok well how about some copy for selling a hole punch, no more than 1 a4 page, not a web page as i wouldn't know where to start, just a headline followed by some text.

Completed by monday morning?

If you win, then i may give you a call to help with my copy, if you lose then you have to admit that north shields is better than south shields.
Please dont do this if you dont want to, i would understand if you feel it may have a negative effect on your business, unless you win of course then you would prove a massive point.

As far as voting it is the only way to do it as it will be which one would members most likely buy from.

Let the games begin

A hole punch is a bit boring, don't you think?

How about a bed mattress? There's plenty of variations and differences, so the copy itself can be of more use compared to a measly hole punch. Just the first thing which came to mind.

I'm only doing a few short paragraphs though because I have work to do and this will be eating into my free time. I'll spend 5-10 minutes on it tops; just to settle this debate once and for all. ;)

[G. Lasagne]

Since im the challenger, i think a hole punch would be better and more challenging, you cant choose the product when a customer calls.

I agree about the time thing so lets say a headline plus 3 paragraphs and some bullet points if you fancy it

[Scott-CopyandDesign]

Since im the challenger, i think a hole punch would be better and more challenging, you cant choose the product when a customer calls.

I agree about the time thing so lets say a headline plus 3 paragraphs and some bullet points if you fancy it

Well my customers pay me don't they? Besides, I'm just doing this to prove that a non-copywriting person cannot write the most effective sales copy; even if there's plenty of opportunity to make it rich in various copywriting 'techniques'.

A hole punch isn't really a display of any particular skills in portraying benefits. There's very little which makes one hole punch better than the other, and sales copy is probably wasted on it. If a person came to me asking me to write copy for a run-of-the-mill £5 hole punch, then I'd tell them that they are wasting their time and to just list some basic features instead of taking their money.

So, that's my offer. ;)

[directmarketingadvice]

Surely if you guys are going to do this, you need to write copy about the exact same product?

If you pick something as vague as "a matress", much of the copy will depend on the nature of the matress you invent.

So why not go to amazon and pick a piece of exercise equiment or a high priced watch?

Then you'll be working on the same product.

Steve

[eventdomain]

My grammar on this forum is a lot different to my grammar when writing quotes and writing copy for my website.

I dont take care to ensure my spelling and grammar is top notch when posting on ukbf, because i dont need to, its not an english exam.

However if i was to write something that would have a direct effect on my business reputation then the grammar etc would be perfect.

I am not trying to sell my services on here (unlike some:rolleyes:) so dont care if my english comes across as crap.

So in short it proves NOTHING, i tell you what colin, write me a piece of copy to sell a hole punch and i will do the same, it must be posted on the forum by monday morning.

Are you up to the challenge????

That will be your proof:D


Exactly, not much wrong with the post spelling-wise at all. Trouble is that whatever you post as 'proof', even if its pretty good, some here will slate it anyway. I just got a feeling :p

[Scott-CopyandDesign]

Surely if you guys are going to do this, you need to write copy about the exact same product?

If you pick something as vague as "a matress", much of the copy will depend on the nature of the matress you invent.

So why not go to amazon and pick a piece of exercise equiment or a high priced watch?

Then you'll be working on the same product.

Steve

To be honest, the situation is so unrealistic that I doubt it would make much difference anyway. We haven't said where the copy would go, what it would be formatted like, how it would be presented to the prospect, whether the prospect is or is not interested in the product and so on. This is just a bit of fun for me. :p

What we can do is make up a certain set of features to turn into benefits. Something like this:

-Pocket springs
-Medium firmness
-8 inches deep
-Multiple layers of padding
-3 foot wide
-Air vents
-5 year warranty

Nice and simple. I've also never developed copy for this type of product before, or looked at relevant websites, so it's all new to me. It's a good way of showing how a copywriter can take benefits from features and write them in the most appealing way (which is one of the most important skills).

[eventdomain]

There are Freelance copywriters and Copywriters/Scriptwriters - the latter work for top industry magazines and national newspapers, and earn in the region of £50k. It would be much tougher to earn that much on the web.

Some work in Marketing or Advertising as part of an agency team, and it is an art form, BUT, this is something anybody could learn, and with practise can become quite good.

Basically, copy is about persuading, using emotion to sell something. I myself am a professional salesman and I persuaded many people to spend vast sums of money for 10 years! So let's do some copy shall we - I'll give it a go:

Copywriting that perspires and inspires

This unique pen is unlike any other. Made from durable stainless steel and gold-plating, the high grade ink, flows like a crystal-like fresh river, will never smudge and will leave your writing with a sense of maturity, passion and elegance.

See, I reckon it boils down to whether people can be bothered to put the effort into their own copy - you know what I mean..... I suspect that many can't be bothered to sit down for 20 minutes or whatever and do it themselves.

I can understand why, its not something I relish - but I can do a bit of short-copy when needed. Probably wouldn't want to do a whole load of it though. Each to their own.

So it basically boils down to this:

Cost of the Expert
Can the client be bothered to do copy themselves
Maybe some just lack the confidence
Is ROI dependant on Copywriting, and if so - how much?
Price of failure
Time involved to find that 'Diamond Scribe'

Is it really necessary in order to have a successful business.

[TheWordWell]

Exactly, not much wrong with the post spelling-wise at all. Trouble is that whatever you post as 'proof', even if its pretty good, some here will slate it anyway. I just got a feeling :p

May I ask why you feel the need to 'slate' copywriters in this thread? For some of us here, copywriting is a professional livelihood and something we are dedicated to. Is anyone asking you to justify yourself and prove you are a salesman?

[sirearl]

As an SEO I am not stupid enough to think that good copywritting will not increase your sales or company profile as in "this is not just stuffed fanny cradock"

"This is M & S stuffed Fanny Cradock" and many more examples.

I also have friends who are copywriters and know that for a certain type of product it can increase your sales significantly.

But maybe not for " Hole punches ":)

Copywriting is a part of the jigsaw that makes for a successfull site,but only for certain products in general.

Earl

[KM-Tiger]

But maybe not for " Hole punches ":)

On the contrary.

I can think of at least four different types of hole punches, so part of the copy writing challenge will be to clearly identify the type?

[directmarketingadvice]

What happened to the copywriting challenge?

This morning was the deadline, but it seems both contenders are no-shows.

Steve

[G. Lasagne]

What happened to the copywriting challenge?

This morning was the deadline, but it seems both contenders are no-shows.

Steve

I think he bottled it Steve, and he wouldn't let the challenger pick the product ;)

[Place of design]

Why is this such a hard concept for people to grasp?

People seem to fight things from thier own corner thinking they have a degree of exclusivity that in reality is not exclusive at all

There are good writers, artists, photographers, designers, SEO's - and while many skills overlap, some are unique

A good wordsmith is in the right situation as useful as a good SEO or photographer (& visa versa)

Just because I can point a camera and shoot I am not a photographer. Just because i can write a post I ma not a writer. This all comes down to skillsets. If you are weak in a area, get a professional in. End of

[Scott-CopyandDesign]

What happened to the copywriting challenge?

This morning was the deadline, but it seems both contenders are no-shows.

Steve

I think he bottled it Steve, and he wouldn't let the challenger pick the product ;)

Nope I'm still game for it. I'm just not wasting my time writing copy advertising a hole punch. If I'm going to prove that copywriting is an art which must be learned, then I'm not going to write copy about such a mundane, run-of-the-mill product. Selling a hole punch doesn't actually need sales copy, so it's useless.

Much more worthwhile choosing a product which is rich in features and benefits.

[gessoandgold]

... I quite like hole punches ... especially red ones ... couldn't you make them sound spectacular and great?

[sirearl]

There are good writers, artists, photographers, designers, SEO's - and while many skills overlap, some are unique

A good wordsmith is in the right situation as useful as a good SEO or photographer (& visa versa)



You may be right its just that the world and his wife don't seem to be agreeing with you at the moment as they are putting there money on search engine placement.:)

http://www.clickz.com/3635149

Earl

[GreenLaser]

It does help one way or the other.

[dan_1985]

... I quite like hole punches ... especially red ones ... couldn't you make them sound spectacular and great?

RX300 Red Hole-Punch

Our pioneering new RX300 model uses innovative new hole-punch technology that will help save you time and energy. Not only does the new RX300 have a larger mouth, allowing you to punch up to three times more sheets at once, but it also features an extra large waste recepticle - all of which helps save you time when ring-binding your documents. We guarantee you will be delighted with your new hole-punch!


Who wouldn't want to buy that hole-punch now!?

[Scott-CopyandDesign]

RX300 Red Hole-Punch

Our pioneering new RX300 model uses innovative new hole-punch technology that will help save you time and energy. Not only does the new RX300 have a larger mouth, allowing you to punch up to three times more sheets at once, but it also features an extra large waste recepticle - all of which helps save you time when ring-binding your documents. We guarantee you will be delighted with your new hole-punch!


Who wouldn't want to buy that hole-punch now!?

Or:

The new RX300 Hole-Punch



The next step up in hole punch design for serious office usage


A larger mouth and advanced leverage system - Punch up to three times more sheets at once with ease
Extra large waste receptacle - You will rarely need to empty it
Extra rugged, solid metal design - Lasts for up to 10 years
Literally save hours of time


Point is, there's probably more interesting things to write about which need at least a couple of paragraphs.

[The Dreaded Lurgy]

RX300 Red Hole-Punch

Your documents won't stand a chance when faced with this organisational wonder, the RX300 will smash its way through piles of tedious paperwork, it will destroy mountains of hole making work in a breeze and before you know it you will be going home for an early tea. And it's red so it will go faster!

[sirearl]

RX300 Red Hole-Punch

Your documents won't stand a chance when faced with this organisational wonder, the RX300 will smash its way through piles of tedious paperwork, it will destroy mountains of hole making work in a breeze and before you know it you will be going home for an early tea. And it's red so it will go faster!

Rubbish you forgot to mention all the men standing round looking down the hole.:D

Earl

[eventdomain]

The new RX300 Hole-Punch



The next step up in hole punch design for serious office usage


A larger mouth and advanced leverage system - Punch up to three times more sheets at once with ease
Extra large waste receptacle - You will rarely need to empty it
Extra rugged, solid metal design - Lasts for up to 10 years
Literally save hours of time



but it doesn't prove that Copywriting increases sales, as I could do the above very easily and save myself paying someone else.

All this proves is that the label of Copywriter can be used by anyone, if they choose.

Btw, I used to sell office supplies, and can tell you that people don't buy Hole punches to save hours of time, or that to my extensive knowledge - no hole punch exists that has a huge waste storage capacity - not even the large electronic ones! Rarely need to empty what? It's not a skip!!

My point is the above copy was supposed to be a demonstration of outstanding skill - was it not? But it's full of basic product knowledge errors and false needs crap, and if you make the mistake of telling the customer what isn't true, you lose the sale.

The copy creates zero emotion and attempts to create something that isn't needed, doesn't exist and has never existed as a desk product - ever.

[rendy]

eventdomain I think you missed the point that the above posts were all tongue in cheek.

[Dawg]

Wife got a big mouth?
Well our Big Mouth hole punch takes the full 12"...
And you can always just get up and go afterwards.

Big Mouth Hole Punch. A Bigger mouth for harder.. tasks.

[fisicx]

You may be right its just that the world and his wife don't seem to be agreeing with you at the moment as they are putting there money on search engine placement.:)

http://www.clickz.com/3635149
You don't half talk some twaddle Earl. The article doesn't once mention search engine placment. Waht it does do is state that 60% of the spend was on search, meaning Adwords which has got bugger all to do with SEO. The companies have done the calculations and realised that it's cheaper to pay for advertising than it is to fight for a paqge one spot.

Which brings us back into the copywrting arena. Not one click from a search engine whatever the source means a sale. It's the copy on the page, the offer, the deal, the calls to action that convert.

[directmarketingadvice]

You don't half talk some twaddle Earl. The article doesn't once mention search engine placment. Waht it does do is state that 60% of the spend was on search, meaning Adwords which has got bugger all to do with SEO. The companies have done the calculations and realised that it's cheaper to pay for advertising than it is to fight for a page one spot.

Woo, hoo!

(Mods: can I be allowed to thank this post multiple times? - lol)

Which brings us back into the copywrting arena. Not one click from a search engine whatever the source means a sale.

As someone once said "traffic doesn't convert, web pages convert".

It's true. With Adwords, most people make the mistake of split-testing to find the ad with the higher conversion rate.

All that does is identify the ad that makes Google the most money. What you should be looking for is the ad that does the best job of turning impressions into money for you.

Steve

[sirearl]

You don't half talk some twaddle Earl. The article doesn't once mention search engine placment. .

Have you got a specsavers near you.?

Search continues to dominate the online sector, growing 6.8 percent year-on-year to account for 59.8 percent of spend. By contrast display advertising contracted 5.2 percent, accounting for just 18.1 percent. Classified ads made up the majority of the remaining spend, growing over ten percent to take a 22 percent slice of the total online pie.

So what did you think this meant if not search engine placement whether by SEO or PPC or adds on other sites?.:D

Try to be a little less biased and remain in touch with the facts.:p

Earl

[Scott-CopyandDesign]

[QUOTE]but it doesn't prove that Copywriting increases sales, as I could do the above very easily and save myself paying someone else.

All this proves is that the label of Copywriter can be used by anyone, if they choose.

Btw, I used to sell office supplies, and can tell you that people don't buy Hole punches to save hours of time, or that to my extensive knowledge - no hole punch exists that has a huge waste storage capacity - not even the large electronic ones! Rarely need to empty what? It's not a skip!!


That's my whole point. That other guy challenged me to write some sales copy to prove that it works, but he wanted to write it for a hole punch.

If you read my other posts, I stated that I didn't want to write it for a hole punch, as it doesn't NEED copy (just bullet points) and it's therefore a waste of time.

I just wrote that post to prove that the 'sales copy' someone else wrote could be condensed into some bullet points.

My point is the above copy was supposed to be a demonstration of outstanding skill - was it not? But it's full of basic product knowledge errors and false needs crap, and if you make the mistake of telling the customer what isn't true, you lose the sale.

No, you're completely wrong. Read again, it is not supposed to be a demonstration of outstanding skill. I was proving that it's pointless writing copy for a hole punch, because any copy you do write can just be condensed into 3/4 bullet points.

Whilst that is a part of good copy, it isn't really a grand showcase of skill.

Now let me go through why you're wrong anyway:

But it's full of basic product knowledge errors

Basic product knowledge is required. A person needs to know exactly what they're buying, and if someone tries to make basic knowledge too fancy, then they're damaging the copy. Why fix something if it isn't broken?

Errors though? I wrote copy for a made-up product with all of the statements being actual features of my made-up product. There are no errors.

and false needs crap, and if you make the mistake of telling the customer what isn't true, you lose the sale.

What isn't true on there? I made this advanced hole punch up. It does punch three times more sheets, it does have larger waste storage, and it does have an advanced leverage system.

It is also for serious office usage if you're needing a hole punch which punches three times as many sheets.

Being able to punch three times more sheets will also save you time. This is obvious.

The copy creates zero emotion and attempts to create something that isn't needed, doesn't exist and has never existed as a desk product - ever.

You've sold office supplies before (apparently) and you're telling me that copy has to create emotion to sell a hole punch? Are you for real?

And it's never existed because I made it up so I can write copy for it.

Dear me. In future please try and read posts properly.

[fisicx]

Search continues to dominate the online sector, growing 6.8 percent year-on-year to account for 59.8 percent of spend. By contrast display advertising contracted 5.2 percent, accounting for just 18.1 percent. Classified ads made up the majority of the remaining spend, growing over ten percent to take a 22 percent slice of the total online pie.

So what did you think this meant if not search engine placement whether by SEO or PPC or adds on other sites?.:D
Read the title of the article:
U.K. Online Ad Spend Exceeded T.V. in First Half, Says IABAdvertising spend. Advertising is not SEO no matter how you spin it.

[sirearl]

Read the title of the article:
Advertising spend. Advertising is not SEO no matter how you spin it.


research ,research ,research is the basis of most successfull website.

try it.?

http://www.reuters.com/article/internetNews/idUSTRE58S4IL20090929

To say that PPC has nothing to do with SEO is ridiculous.

They are both about getting high rankings on the engines.:p

And optimising the text to get the most CTR.

Earl

[directmarketingadvice]

To say that PPC has nothing to do with SEO is ridiculous.

Is that what he said?

I thought he said that the figures wouldn't include SEO spend because that's not a form of ad spend.

Steve

[eventdomain]

That's my whole point. That other guy challenged me to write some sales copy to prove that it works, but he wanted to write it for a hole punch.

If you read my other posts, I stated that I didn't want to write it for a hole punch, as it doesn't NEED copy (just bullet points) and it's therefore a waste of time.

I just wrote that post to prove that the 'sales copy' someone else wrote could be condensed into some bullet points.


Yep, I am aware of the challenge and all that stuff, but isn't this thread entitled Copywriters are magicians ? - in that they can somehow work magic with words and improve sales to some amazing standard?

See, it seems to me that Copywriters are saying they can offer a skill, that noone else can possibly provide, (which isn't true), so when the Gauntlet was thrown down, I was really expecting a proper contest, and not a comedy act - so with all the posts about I can do it better etc, it seems the pair of you missed a golden opportunity to shine.

However you dress it up, the Copy you wrote (joking intent aside) wasn't telling anyone things that they didn't know already. Eg:

I just wrote that post to prove that the 'sales copy' someone else wrote could be condensed into some bullet points.


Well, it's hardly rocket science is it. This is so easy to do and I think people knew it already.

Ok, you think I missed your point - but I'm saying your wrong. I was trying to point out that instead of wasting time using joke copy, you could have treated the challenge seriously and created something worthy of this incredible skill of yours.

But you didn't.

you're telling me that copy has to create emotion to sell a hole punch?

OMG, nope, wasn't what I said either. The basic copy you used didn't amaze - its that simple. Now, if your blaming the unseriousness of the product example being a hole punch, then you could have chosen something more difficult.

[Scott-CopyandDesign]

Yep, I am aware of the challenge and all that stuff, but isn't this thread entitled ? - in that they can somehow work magic with words and improve sales to some amazing standard?

So what? I've told you, that copy I wrote was an example of why it's pointless writing copy for a hole punch, because any copy (written for a hole punch) can just be condensed into a few bullet points. It wasn't to show a sample of good copy.

If anything, it was to show that sales copy isn't required for that particular product. Read.

See, it seems to me that Copywriters are saying they can offer a skill, that noone else can possibly provide, (which isn't true), so when the Gauntlet was thrown down, I was really expecting a proper contest, and not a comedy act - so with all the posts about , it seems the pair of you missed a golden opportunity to shine.I quite liked this opportunity, but I'm not writing sales copy for a hole punch, because it'll probably do more harm than good. You need a product/service which is rich in features and benefits to come up with something which is miles ahead.

Also, it's perfectly plausible for anyone to become a copywriter, but they need to learn how to do it, just like any other skill. I've spent years learning a LOT of information about copywriting and I've only recently started achieving my best results.

However you dress it up, the Copy you wrote (joking intent aside) wasn't telling anyone things that they didn't know already. Eg:Right. It's a bad thing that this could happen - not a good thing. You've really got the wrong end of the stick here. If you have a product which is so simple and run-of-the-mill, then it's very difficult to write copy for it which convinces people anymore than normal bullet points do.

Proper copy explains the benefits and features of a service. The only way you could write that about a hole punch is if you give the copy to someone who has never heard of or used a hole punch before. The hole punch would then have a ton of benefits which are better than poking holes in paper with a pair of scissors, or whatever the person did prior to that point.


Ok, you think I missed your point - but I'm saying your wrong. I was trying to point out that instead of wasting time using joke copy, you could have treated the challenge seriously and created something worthy of this incredible skill of yours.It isn't joke copy. I'm giving the reason why I didn't take the challenge of writing copy for a hole punch. My reason being is that even if you do manage to come up with paragraphs about a hole punch, they could just be condensed into simple bullet points.

Some products and services can sell 100x better with good sales copy, but some products just don't - unless they have new features built into them.


OMG, nope, wasn't what I said either. The basic copy you used didn't amaze - its that simple. Now, if your blaming the unseriousness on the product example being a hole punch, then you could have chosen something more difficult.It wasn't supposed to amaze. It wasn't even sales copy. I was proving that the copy which that other person wrote, could simply be condensed into bullet points. This therefore proves that hole punches probably don't fare well with paragraphs of text. Bullet points will do. It's therefore a pretty useless product to base a challenge around.

Now, if your blaming the unseriousness on the product example being a hole punch, then you could have chosen something more difficult.I didn't choose the product, the 'challenger did'. I'm saying why I haven't went ahead with that. When I'm given a more suitable product/service, then I'll be happy to take it up.

And please, this time, PLEASE read what I've just said and try not to get the wrong end of the stick again. I'd rather spend my time giving constructive responses to people instead of correcting people who are wrong.